Update! I paid for the pull bell today as I returned at long last from vacation in Honokowai, Hi and needed to update my profile with the new expiration date on the credit card I use for making eBay purchases. I had forgotten to do that when I received my new card a month ago.
Once I receive it, I will then follow up with the oldest bell manufacturer in the US to determine who manufactured the bell, etc etc.
I do not expect to receive the bell until the end of this upcoming week. In the meantime, I will work very hard to make sure I can pay off my credit card. LOL.
I have been in touch with an retired US Mint worker at the West Point Mint. Previously it was known as a precious metal depositary.
He mentioned that it was possible the doorbell was placed on the INSIDE of the doorway with the copper wire plus an old string (not seen here) which was placed through a hole on the wall next to the doorway so that by pulling on the wire/string from the OUTSIDE, the bell would ring on the INSIDE where workers would be able to hear the bell. Now which doorway is the next unanswered question. According to this fellow who now works for USPS, At the West Point Mint in the 1980's, the electric doorbell was placed on the inside of a few doorways with the push button on the OUTSIDE of the doorways until they were removed with more modern equipment.
A client of mine who has done actual construction work in the West Point Mint will be apprised of all this and hopefully, he can obtained additional information.
Roger Burdette has emailed me additional information that may prove to be quite helpful. But I first want to get the age of the bell as well as who manufactured.
Unless there are some makers marks, my guess is we will get only general attribution from overall bell shape, some details or "style", composition and the like? These would have been incredibly common items. Looking forward!
I thought it was obvious that a doorbell would be on the inside, to let people know that there was somebody on the outside wanting to get in.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I picked up the pull bell today at the post office. I did not realize that the bell was shipped express mail and was sitting in the post office for several days before picking it up.
I am trying to be as dispassionate as I possibly can.
My observations are as follows:
1) I found a very old etched "5" at the top of the bell which appears to be consistent with the possibility that multiple bells (5 or more) were in place for night security guards to ring the bell upon entering specific rooms OR to request entry into specific rooms.
2) The patina along with various verdigris appears quite old and quite thick. The tongue/clapper looks particularly filthy and full of verdigris in relation to the rest of the bell as it was the major moving part of the bell and it seems particularly affected by continuous contact with filty/polluted air.
3) Only half of the pull chain appeared to have been painted which appears consistent that half of the chain was in one room and the other half was through the wall on the other side/other room.
4) Nothing looks polished or cleaned in any area of the bell or pull chain. All connections and joints look older than my great-great grandparents. Even the pull chain looks as old as the bell itself.
5) I definitely remember the sign that accompanied the bell (for some reason I do not remember the bell much at all ) when I visited the 3rd US Mint building as a youngster.
6) In checking when I visited the 3rd US Mint building, I found that I was only 12 years old when visiting the US Mint in 1965, not 1966 or 1967 as I originally stated.
7)The red ribbon attached to the '1832' US Mint medal looks incredibly aged compared to the "new" looking ribbon shown in the picture. I was shocked.
8) The bell clapper was much more worn and show signs of early deterioration versus the rest of the bell. The "ring" inside the bell where the clapper hit the bell is a different color NOT because of wear but because it acquired an extra layer of metallic "dirt" which was pounded into the inside of the bell by an filthy and caged clapper.
9) The bell, chain and pulley wheel and housing are EXTREMELY heavy for their mass size.
10) This bell's age and origin will be studied in person by one of the top bell collector in the country and also a 7th generation USA manufacturer (since 1833) needs to be authenticated.
I wish you luck, but what is a bell expert going to tell you? That it's an old bell? I have an old Windsor chair here that I bought in the early 70's at a flea market for literally nothing. All a Windsor expert is going to tell me is where it was made, and about when. He isn't going to put it in Martha Washington's living room. I've been in the antique business for 40 years and I have heard stories like like this hundreds of times. I've known people who went to their graves trying to prove that such and such was from ............. Then one of the children wants a ridiculous price for whatever because Dad told them it was valuable.
I've been on these chases myself, they can be fun but seldom are fruitful.
Assume the bell is very, very old and perhaps made in Philadelphia, then what? If you remember seeing this in 1965 there must be some record of it somewhere, some photo online? I would go about establishing provenance that way.
Something is missing here. I have looked at the pictures and going on accounts of actually ringing bells on pull chains...the bell had to be attached to something to make the bell body wag back and forth, so the clapper can ring the bell. Simply hanging the bell from a chain will not ring the bell when pulled. Also, there needed to be a counter weight to return the ringer handle.
Other than that, it would be exciting to find out if this bell was rung at the Mother Mint.
Note: The card looks very period and there appears to be the remnants of a postage stamp on the back. Wouldn't that be interesting?
Definitely cool seeing the research, but like others have said, unless you can find a picture of the bell in the mint with some kind of characteristic that matches it to this one, or a serial number or something I just don't know if there is anyway to "prove" it (whether it is actually from the mint or not). Interested in seeing what you come up with!
First, I just have it in my mind that the date when this bell was manufactured and by whom is a prerequisite initial step to placing when this bell was first used and for what possible purpose.
Then the second step is to have the pre-eminent USA bell manufacturer who understand these old bells show all of us in a pictorial way exactly how this bell in it's present configuration was set up in a doorway or hallway or whatever.
The third step is to determine from the current configuration of this pull bell assembly, the various likely uses whether commercial or otherwise as on it's placement within a building.
The forth step is to understand the present condition of the bell and why the chain was partially painted. This involves having the bell manufacturer examine the bell and explain the nature of it's wear and tear, etc.
The fifth step is to go some contacts I still have with the paint industry to have them analyze how old the deteriorated paint is on the chain as this might clarify some issues we all have about this pull bell, age-wise as to when it was used.
I want to be extremely measured and go at a snails pace (partially because I am in my busy season as a CPA) but because I do not want to jump ahead of myself here especially if the bell manufacturer tells me the bell was made in 2008 and doctored to make it look real old. LOL, but who knows?
Once we know all about the bell itself, then we can investigate age of the wooden backed paper display sign as to when it was written, etc, etc.
Then all the other steps hopefully fall into place. I have to muddle through this. I want to have fun with this too.
our comments and criticisms are in fact quite helpful. Perhaps we may prove this bell to be a fake but discover something even more important on this journey.
Of course, the only thing more exciting than being a US Mint bell is finding out that this tiny little bell bell temporarily took the place of the Liberty Bell in Philly while the Liberty Bell was being repaired. ROFL!
On the one side, hope. On the other ... If there were a poll on the bell's authenticity... how would people vote ? Great read, intriquing questions, and lots of mystery.
<<First, I just have it in my mind that the date when this bell was manufactured and by whom is a prerequisite initial step to placing when this bell was first used and for what possible purpose.>>
This may yield only very general information or rule other things out quickly.
<<Then the second step is to have the pre-eminent USA bell manufacturer who understand these old bells show all of us in a pictorial way exactly how this bell in it's present configuration was set up in a doorway or hallway or whatever.>>
Is this even necessary?
<<The third step is to determine from the current configuration of this pull bell assembly, the various likely uses whether commercial or otherwise as on it's placement within a building.>>
See note above. This will be very generic at best, no?
<<The forth step is to understand the present condition of the bell and why the chain was partially painted. This involves having the bell manufacturer examine the bell and explain the nature of it's wear and tear, etc.>>
See note above. It will have wear related use - assuming the wear patterns are normal it will prove little, even if high volume use is indicated. You may never know why it was painted but unless a paint sample is going to match something specific, what is the point?
<<The fifth step is to go some contacts I still have with the paint industry to have them analyze how old the deteriorated paint is on the chain as this might clarify some issues we all have about this pull bell, age-wise as to when it was used.>>
Lets assume it is stack process white lead ground in boiled linseed oil with a redundant siccative like Manganese and extended with fillers like chalk. None of this is IMHO getting you any closer (unless there is a well known makers mark and a paper trail to who the bell was supplied to appears). What has research at the Mint yielded? Contacting coin clubs with folks just like who might have a photo - that sort of thing is where I'd spend my time.
<<I want to be extremely measured and go at a snails pace (partially because I am in my busy season as a CPA) but because I do not want to jump ahead of myself here especially if the bell manufacturer tells me the bell was made in 2008 and doctored to make it look real old. LOL, but who knows?
Once we know all about the bell itself, then we can investigate age of the wooden backed paper display sign as to when it was written, etc, etc.>>
I don't think this will help establish much - one can prove the age of a carved column and its concentric rings - but the resulting information means nothing more than that as far as what palace etc. If metallurgic composition, paint analysis (unless comparing to a very specific chip this will be very general indeed) and we understand how the bell worked - we will be no closer than we are now?
<<Then all the other steps hopefully fall into place. I have to muddle through this. I want to have fun with this too.>>
Keep up the good work Oreville! Think of some other avenues of attack. Other than the info I gave you I have not turned up much about the paper/ink yet.
Right now I am in my busiest part of my year between January and April 15th in which time is at a tremendous premium as a CPA specializing in Corporation and personal income taxes. It seems as if we have picked up some new business this year, slightly offsetting some clients that are going out of business.
Due to an unexpected employee retirement in my firm, we are a bit short handed even when replacing her (with a less experienced person).
I will probably not be able to travel to Connecticut until after April 17th to authenticate the bell.
After resting up a bit from my tax season and playing coins, old slabs and sample slabs I was finally able to begin contacting the experts about bells.
I telephoned Doug who is the foreman of the Bevan Bros. Manufacturing Company located in East Hampton, CT as well as Jeff Bell, a reknown author/collector of USA made old style bells.
They both received emails with pictures from me. They also also mentioned other important sources of information including the American Bell Association and the East Hampton (Chatham) Historical Society.
The dialogue will now really get going. This is a prerequisite to making a trip and showing the bell in person to the right experts.
The bell is around 5 to 6 regular (not troy) ounces in weight and 2 7/16 inches wide at the bottom.
According to his inspection limited to the pictures and my responses to specific questions about the bell itself, he believes this bell was made between the 1790's and the 1830's.
He further stated that it is NOT American made. He stated that it distinctively appears to be done by sand cast mold which was done in Great Britain.
He then remarked that because it was manufactured in Great Britain, it was more likely to have been made in the very "late 18th century or early" 19th century. I asked what he meant by "early" 19th Century.
He emphasized prior to 1808 when the first of the American bell manufacturers was born in East Hampton, CT.
Jeff believes it is quite possible that this bell (which he speculates may be an alarm bell) was installed in the First Building (1792-1833) and then removed from such building and re-installed in the Second Building (1833-1901).
He also hypothesizes that the pully and chain was made by remarkably gifted blacksmiths of the era. I remarked if that could included experienced metal engravers at the US Mint. He responded immediately in the affirmative.
He observed that because the bell had so little exterior rust yet exhibited significant rust inside the bell meant it was most likely used indoors.
He also mentioned that bells were NOT used as doorbells until the 1830's. The use of this bell had to initially be used as an alarm or security notification when originally installed.
He is contacting other members of the American Bell Association to further study the pictures of the bell and to study it in person.
He is the initial opinion that it was manufactured by WhiteChapel Bell Foundry in London. They are famed for manufacturing the bells of Big Ben.
Since the company still exists, he suggests that I take this bell to England and verify what year it was manufactured if personal inspection does not specify the year this bell was manufactured.
This information is blowing me away.
This is a sample page from google regrding some of Jeff Bell's work:
`Bell Talk` • View forum - Small Bells www.americanbell.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6&start=450 Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton Connecticut by jeff Bell » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am: 0 Replies: 1170 Views: Last post by jeff Bell Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am ... `Bell Talk` • View forum - Bell Foundries, Manufacturers and Artisans www.americanbell.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&start=150 by jeff Bell » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:11 am: 1 Replies: 3026 Views: Last post by cannonmn. Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:17 pm. Ross-Meehan Bell by rweaver » Thu Feb 15, ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Harrison and Davis Foundry www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=479 by jeff Bell » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:54 pm. Wonder if someone can help me identify location and dates of operation for a large bell foundry named," Harrison and ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Whatzit? bell. Please help identify. www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=406 9 posts - 5 authors - Feb 23, 2007 Have one just like it. Years ago, I won a bid on Ebay which I thought was an unsual bell. Turns not that I was mislead. Trust this is helpful. Jeff ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Brasss / Bronze Foundries in U.S.A. www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=211 2 posts - 2 authors by jeff Bell » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:11 am. I'm in the process of listing brass and bronze foundries that have operated in the U.S. ( See list below ). Intent is to ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - old school bells www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=869 5 posts - 3 authors - Jul 7, 2008 To a collector the size stamping is a vital piece of information in determing the manufacturer and time frame in which the bell was produced. Jeff ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Bell Manufactures In Connecticut www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=214 1 post - 1 author Bell Manufactures In Connecticut. Post by jeff Bell » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:11 pm. Seeking historical information on companies in East Hampton, New Britain ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton ... www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=385 Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton Connecticut. Post by jeff Bell » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am. Gracious Good Day to All, Seeking information, as dates of ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Hand Bells At Arabia Steamboat Museum www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=242 2 posts - 2 authors - Aug 9, 2006 by jeff Bell » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:01 pm. Seeking information on hand bells recovered from steamboat ARABIA which may be on display at ... `Bell Talk` • View topic - Brass or bronze Hand Bell Collectors www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=197 1 post - 1 author by jeff Bell » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:25 am. Seeking other ABA members having interest in collecting brass or bronze hand bells, AKA Teacher's / School, Town ...
<< <i>I had an fascinating conversation with Jeff Bell.
According to his inspection limited to the pictures and my responses to specific questions about the bell itself, he believes this bell was made between the 1790's and the 1830's.
He further stated that it is NOT American made. He stated that it distinctively appears to be done by sand cast mold which was done in Great Britain.
He then remarked that because it was manufactured in Great Britain, it was more likely to have been made in the very "late 18th century or early" 19th century. I asked what he meant by "early" 19th Century.
He emphasized prior to 1808 when the first of the American bell manufacturers was born in East Hampton, CT.
Jeff believes it is quite possible that this bell (which he speculates may be an alarm bell) was installed in the First Building (1792-1833) and then removed from such building and re-installed in the Second Building (1833-1901).
He also hypothesizes that the pully and chain was made by remarkably gifted blacksmiths of the era. I remarked if that could included experienced metal engravers at the US Mint. He responded immediately in the affirmative. >>
Wow wow wow! That is beyond cool. You took a chance and it looks like it paid off. I love stories like this. That bell may have been hanging there when my 1795 dollar was made. Wow wow wow. Good for you oreville!
<< <i>Since the company still exists, he suggests that I take this bell to England and verify what year it was manufactured if personal inspection does not specify the year this bell was manufactured. >>
Road Trip!
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<<He also hypothesizes that the pully and chain was made by remarkably gifted blacksmiths of the era. I remarked if that could included experienced metal engravers at the US Mint. He responded immediately in the affirmative>>
He observed that because the bell had so little exterior rust yet exhibited significant rust inside the bell meant it was most likely used indoors.
He also mentioned that bells were NOT used as doorbells until the 1830's. The use of this bell had to initially be used as an alarm or security notification when originally installed. >>
It was likely used indoors in any context prior to 1830 - so that's not a surprise nor is the rust. If no bell manufacturer existed in the US at that time it would seem all from this period were from Great Britain? It was also said that "Pull bells were so common in the day (between 1830 and 1901) they were seen as junk. Nothing special about them at all." The jump from "gifted blacksmith" to "Mint engraver" is a big one. It was mentioned the paper provenance and medal seemed unrelated. There was talk of a stamp perhaps on the back? I remember the unusual late 19th century pulp paper note with unusual hand and reverse aging, bad feedback and Imperial Russia stuff for sale, bookplates as maps, poorly "made" early 19th century primitive art dated to 1900-1949?, iron items dug from the ground from the 18TH century with impossible surfaces, "As Is" auction, NO returns, private auctions etc. and "I PURCHASED THIS AT A PENNSYLVANIA ANTIQUE MARKET. I TRUST THE DEALER THAT I PURCHASED THIS FROM AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE PERSON THAT HE PURCHASED THE PIECE FROM UNEARTHED THE PIPE HEAD AROUND PENNSBURY MANOR (WILLIAM PENN'S HOME). APPARENTLY..." "I ALSO HAD A WELL KNOWN ARCHAEOLOGIST IN PHILADELPHIA EXAMINE AND AUTHENTICATE THE PIECE. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHO HE IS AS HE ASKED ME TO NOT DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION."
Looking for more. Good Luck! Edit to add sellera current auctions are equally "optimistic"
<< <i>"the jump from gifted blacksmith to US MInt engraver is a big one. >>
Indeed. You are right. To clarify the Q & A that went on, I asked if it was possible that the gifted blacksmith COULD have been a US Mint engraver to which the response was indeed it was possible, not that it was definite.
Part of the problem in our discussion is I did not have made it absolutely clear to this bell expert what US Mint engravers do in the US Mint. For that matter, I am probably not an expert on what they did between 1790 and the early part of the 19th century either!
<< <i>"the jump from gifted blacksmith to US MInt engraver is a big one. >>
Indeed. You are right. To clarify the Q & A that went on, I asked if it was possible that the gifted blacksmith COULD have been a US Mint engraver to which the response was indeed it was possible, not that it was definite.
Part of the problem in our discussion is I did not have made it absolutely clear to this bell expert what US Mint engravers do in the US Mint. For that matter, I am probably not an expert on what they did between 1790 and the early part of the 19th century either! >>
That makes two of us! I hope you continue to keep us posted with your hunt! Thank you.
Comments
Magikbilly:
Update! I paid for the pull bell today as I returned at long last from vacation in Honokowai, Hi and needed to update my profile with the new expiration date on the credit card I use for making eBay purchases. I had forgotten to do that when I received my new card a month ago.
Once I receive it, I will then follow up with the oldest bell manufacturer in the US to determine who manufactured the bell, etc etc.
I do not expect to receive the bell until the end of this upcoming week. In the meantime, I will work very hard to make sure I can pay off my credit card. LOL.
I have been in touch with an retired US Mint worker at the West Point Mint. Previously it was known as a precious metal depositary.
He mentioned that it was possible the doorbell was placed on the INSIDE of the doorway with the copper wire plus an old string (not seen here) which was placed through a hole on the wall next to the doorway so that by pulling on the wire/string from the OUTSIDE, the bell would ring on the INSIDE where workers would be able to hear the bell. Now which doorway is the next unanswered question. According to this fellow who now works for USPS, At the West Point Mint in the 1980's, the electric doorbell was placed on the inside of a few doorways with the push button on the OUTSIDE of the doorways until they were removed with more modern equipment.
A client of mine who has done actual construction work in the West Point Mint will be apprised of all this and hopefully, he can obtained additional information.
Eric
<< <i>I thought it was obvious that a doorbell would be on the inside, to let people know that there was somebody on the outside wanting to get in. >>
I think that was mentioned earlier in the thread too.
Eric
I picked up the pull bell today at the post office. I did not realize that the bell was shipped express mail and was sitting in the post office for several days before picking it up.
I am trying to be as dispassionate as I possibly can.
My observations are as follows:
1) I found a very old etched "5" at the top of the bell which appears to be consistent with the possibility that multiple bells (5 or more)
were in place for night security guards to ring the bell upon entering specific rooms OR to request entry into specific rooms.
2) The patina along with various verdigris appears quite old and quite thick. The tongue/clapper looks particularly filthy and full of verdigris in relation to the rest of the bell as it was the major moving part of the bell and it seems particularly affected by continuous contact with filty/polluted air.
3) Only half of the pull chain appeared to have been painted which appears consistent that half of the chain was in one room and the other half was through the wall on the other side/other room.
4) Nothing looks polished or cleaned in any area of the bell or pull chain. All connections and joints look older than my great-great grandparents. Even the pull chain looks as old as the bell itself.
5) I definitely remember the sign that accompanied the bell (for some reason I do not remember the bell much at all ) when I visited the 3rd US Mint building as a youngster.
6) In checking when I visited the 3rd US Mint building, I found that I was only 12 years old when visiting the US Mint in 1965, not 1966 or 1967 as I originally stated.
7)The red ribbon attached to the '1832' US Mint medal looks incredibly aged compared to the "new" looking ribbon shown in the picture. I was shocked.
8) The bell clapper was much more worn and show signs of early deterioration versus the rest of the bell. The "ring" inside the bell where the clapper hit the bell is a different color NOT because of wear but because it acquired an extra layer of metallic "dirt" which was pounded into the inside of the bell by an filthy and caged clapper.
9) The bell, chain and pulley wheel and housing are EXTREMELY heavy for their mass size.
10) This bell's age and origin will be studied in person by one of the top bell collector in the country and also a 7th generation USA manufacturer (since 1833) needs to be authenticated.
I've been on these chases myself, they can be fun but seldom are fruitful.
Eric
Other than that, it would be exciting to find out if this bell was rung at the Mother Mint.
Note: The card looks very period and there appears to be the remnants of a postage stamp on the back. Wouldn't that be interesting?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Interested in seeing what you come up with!
First, I just have it in my mind that the date when this bell was manufactured and by whom is a prerequisite initial step to placing when this bell was first used and for what possible purpose.
Then the second step is to have the pre-eminent USA bell manufacturer who understand these old bells show all of us in a pictorial way exactly how this bell in it's present configuration was set up in a doorway or hallway or whatever.
The third step is to determine from the current configuration of this pull bell assembly, the various likely uses whether commercial or otherwise as on it's placement within a building.
The forth step is to understand the present condition of the bell and why the chain was partially painted. This involves having the bell manufacturer examine the bell and explain the nature of it's wear and tear, etc.
The fifth step is to go some contacts I still have with the paint industry to have them analyze how old the deteriorated paint is on the chain as this might clarify some issues we all have about this pull bell, age-wise as to when it was used.
I want to be extremely measured and go at a snails pace (partially because I am in my busy season as a CPA) but because I do not want to jump ahead of myself here especially if the bell manufacturer tells me the bell was made in 2008 and doctored to make it look real old. LOL, but who knows?
Once we know all about the bell itself, then we can investigate age of the wooden backed paper display sign as to when it was written, etc, etc.
Then all the other steps hopefully fall into place. I have to muddle through this. I want to have fun with this too.
our comments and criticisms are in fact quite helpful. Perhaps we may prove this bell to be a fake but discover something even more important on this journey.
Of course, the only thing more exciting than being a US Mint bell is finding out that this tiny little bell bell temporarily took the place of the Liberty Bell in Philly while the Liberty Bell was being repaired. ROFL!
If there were a poll on the bell's authenticity... how would people vote ?
Great read, intriquing questions, and lots of mystery.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<<First, I just have it in my mind that the date when this bell was manufactured and by whom is a prerequisite initial step to placing when this bell was first used and for what possible purpose.>>
This may yield only very general information or rule other things out quickly.
<<Then the second step is to have the pre-eminent USA bell manufacturer who understand these old bells show all of us in a pictorial way exactly how this bell in it's present configuration was set up in a doorway or hallway or whatever.>>
Is this even necessary?
<<The third step is to determine from the current configuration of this pull bell assembly, the various likely uses whether commercial or otherwise as on it's placement within a building.>>
See note above. This will be very generic at best, no?
<<The forth step is to understand the present condition of the bell and why the chain was partially painted. This involves having the bell manufacturer examine the bell and explain the nature of it's wear and tear, etc.>>
See note above. It will have wear related use - assuming the wear patterns are normal it will prove little, even if high volume use is indicated. You may never know why it was painted but unless a paint sample is going to match something specific, what is the point?
<<The fifth step is to go some contacts I still have with the paint industry to have them analyze how old the deteriorated paint is on the chain as this might clarify some issues we all have about this pull bell, age-wise as to when it was used.>>
Lets assume it is stack process white lead ground in boiled linseed oil with a redundant siccative like Manganese and extended with fillers like chalk. None of this is IMHO getting you any closer (unless there is a well known makers mark and a paper trail to who the bell was supplied to appears). What has research at the Mint yielded? Contacting coin clubs with folks just like who might have a photo - that sort of thing is where I'd spend my time.
<<I want to be extremely measured and go at a snails pace (partially because I am in my busy season as a CPA) but because I do not want to jump ahead of myself here especially if the bell manufacturer tells me the bell was made in 2008 and doctored to make it look real old. LOL, but who knows?
Once we know all about the bell itself, then we can investigate age of the wooden backed paper display sign as to when it was written, etc, etc.>>
I don't think this will help establish much - one can prove the age of a carved column and its concentric rings - but the resulting information means nothing more than that as far as what palace etc. If metallurgic composition, paint analysis (unless comparing to a very specific chip this will be very general indeed) and we understand how the bell worked - we will be no closer than we are now?
<<Then all the other steps hopefully fall into place. I have to muddle through this. I want to have fun with this too.>>
Keep up the good work Oreville! Think of some other avenues of attack. Other than the info I gave you I have not turned up much about the paper/ink yet.
Eric
Eric
Eric
Right now I am in my busiest part of my year between January and April 15th in which time is at a tremendous premium as a CPA specializing in Corporation and personal income taxes. It seems as if we have picked up some new business this year, slightly offsetting some clients that are going out of business.
Due to an unexpected employee retirement in my firm, we are a bit short handed even when replacing her (with a less experienced person).
I will probably not be able to travel to Connecticut until after April 17th to authenticate the bell.
Good luck/this time of year and employee problem, I'll keep an eye out!
Eric
Eric
After resting up a bit from my tax season and playing coins, old slabs and sample slabs I was finally able to begin contacting the experts about bells.
I telephoned Doug who is the foreman of the Bevan Bros. Manufacturing Company located in East Hampton, CT as well as Jeff Bell, a reknown author/collector of USA made old style bells.
They both received emails with pictures from me. They also also mentioned other important sources of information including the American Bell Association and the East Hampton (Chatham) Historical Society.
The dialogue will now really get going. This is a prerequisite to making a trip and showing the bell in person to the right experts.
The bell is around 5 to 6 regular (not troy) ounces in weight and 2 7/16 inches wide at the bottom.
Apropo name, will await future updates on this interesting artifact.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
According to his inspection limited to the pictures and my responses to specific questions about the bell itself, he believes this bell was made between the 1790's and the 1830's.
He further stated that it is NOT American made. He stated that it distinctively appears to be done by sand cast mold which was done in Great Britain.
He then remarked that because it was manufactured in Great Britain, it was more likely to have been made in the very "late 18th century or early" 19th century. I asked what he meant by "early" 19th Century.
He emphasized prior to 1808 when the first of the American bell manufacturers was born in East Hampton, CT.
Jeff believes it is quite possible that this bell (which he speculates may be an alarm bell) was installed in the First Building (1792-1833) and then removed from such building and re-installed in the Second Building (1833-1901).
He also hypothesizes that the pully and chain was made by remarkably gifted blacksmiths of the era. I remarked if that could included experienced metal engravers at the US Mint. He responded immediately in the affirmative.
He observed that because the bell had so little exterior rust yet exhibited significant rust inside the bell meant it was most likely used indoors.
He also mentioned that bells were NOT used as doorbells until the 1830's. The use of this bell had to initially be used as an alarm or security notification when originally installed.
He is contacting other members of the American Bell Association to further study the pictures of the bell and to study it in person.
He is the initial opinion that it was manufactured by WhiteChapel Bell Foundry in London. They are famed for manufacturing the bells of Big Ben.
Since the company still exists, he suggests that I take this bell to England and verify what year it was manufactured if personal inspection does not specify the year this bell was manufactured.
This information is blowing me away.
This is a sample page from google regrding some of Jeff Bell's work:
`Bell Talk` • View forum - Small Bells
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=6&start=450
Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton Connecticut by jeff Bell » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am: 0 Replies: 1170 Views: Last post by jeff Bell Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am ...
`Bell Talk` • View forum - Bell Foundries, Manufacturers and Artisans
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&start=150
by jeff Bell » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:11 am: 1 Replies: 3026 Views: Last post by cannonmn. Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:17 pm. Ross-Meehan Bell by rweaver » Thu Feb 15, ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Harrison and Davis Foundry
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=479
by jeff Bell » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:54 pm. Wonder if someone can help me identify location and dates of operation for a large bell foundry named," Harrison and ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Whatzit? bell. Please help identify.
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=406
9 posts - 5 authors - Feb 23, 2007
Have one just like it. Years ago, I won a bid on Ebay which I thought was an unsual bell. Turns not that I was mislead. Trust this is helpful. Jeff ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Brasss / Bronze Foundries in U.S.A.
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=211
2 posts - 2 authors
by jeff Bell » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:11 am. I'm in the process of listing brass and bronze foundries that have operated in the U.S. ( See list below ). Intent is to ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - old school bells
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=869
5 posts - 3 authors - Jul 7, 2008
To a collector the size stamping is a vital piece of information in determing the manufacturer and time frame in which the bell was produced. Jeff ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Bell Manufactures In Connecticut
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=214
1 post - 1 author
Bell Manufactures In Connecticut. Post by jeff Bell » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:11 pm. Seeking historical information on companies in East Hampton, New Britain ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton ...
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=385
Bell Manufacturer in East Hampton Connecticut. Post by jeff Bell » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am. Gracious Good Day to All, Seeking information, as dates of ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Hand Bells At Arabia Steamboat Museum
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=242
2 posts - 2 authors - Aug 9, 2006
by jeff Bell » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:01 pm. Seeking information on hand bells recovered from steamboat ARABIA which may be on display at ...
`Bell Talk` • View topic - Brass or bronze Hand Bell Collectors
www.americanbell.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=197
1 post - 1 author
by jeff Bell » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:25 am. Seeking other ABA members having interest in collecting brass or bronze hand bells, AKA Teacher's / School, Town ...
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<< <i>I had an fascinating conversation with Jeff Bell.
According to his inspection limited to the pictures and my responses to specific questions about the bell itself, he believes this bell was made between the 1790's and the 1830's.
He further stated that it is NOT American made. He stated that it distinctively appears to be done by sand cast mold which was done in Great Britain.
He then remarked that because it was manufactured in Great Britain, it was more likely to have been made in the very "late 18th century or early" 19th century. I asked what he meant by "early" 19th Century.
He emphasized prior to 1808 when the first of the American bell manufacturers was born in East Hampton, CT.
Jeff believes it is quite possible that this bell (which he speculates may be an alarm bell) was installed in the First Building (1792-1833) and then removed from such building and re-installed in the Second Building (1833-1901).
He also hypothesizes that the pully and chain was made by remarkably gifted blacksmiths of the era. I remarked if that could included experienced metal engravers at the US Mint. He responded immediately in the affirmative. >>
Wow wow wow! That is beyond cool. You took a chance and it looks like it paid off. I love stories like this. That bell may have been hanging there when my 1795 dollar was made. Wow wow wow. Good for you oreville!
<< <i>Since the company still exists, he suggests that I take this bell to England and verify what year it was manufactured if personal inspection does not specify the year this bell was manufactured. >>
Road Trip!
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
He observed that because the bell had so little exterior rust yet exhibited significant rust inside the bell meant it was most likely used indoors.
He also mentioned that bells were NOT used as doorbells until the 1830's. The use of this bell had to initially be used as an alarm or security notification when originally installed. >>
It was likely used indoors in any context prior to 1830 - so that's not a surprise nor is the rust. If no bell manufacturer existed in the US at that time it would seem all from this period were from Great Britain? It was also said that "Pull bells were so common in the day (between 1830 and 1901) they were seen as junk. Nothing special about them at all." The jump from "gifted blacksmith" to "Mint engraver" is a big one. It was mentioned the paper provenance and medal seemed unrelated. There was talk of a stamp perhaps on the back? I remember the unusual late 19th century pulp paper note with unusual hand and reverse aging, bad feedback and Imperial Russia stuff for sale, bookplates as maps, poorly "made" early 19th century primitive art dated to 1900-1949?, iron items dug from the ground from the 18TH century with impossible surfaces, "As Is" auction, NO returns, private auctions etc. and "I PURCHASED THIS AT A PENNSYLVANIA ANTIQUE MARKET. I TRUST THE DEALER THAT I PURCHASED THIS FROM AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE PERSON THAT HE PURCHASED THE PIECE FROM UNEARTHED THE PIPE HEAD AROUND PENNSBURY MANOR (WILLIAM PENN'S HOME). APPARENTLY..." "I ALSO HAD A WELL KNOWN ARCHAEOLOGIST IN PHILADELPHIA EXAMINE AND AUTHENTICATE THE PIECE. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHO HE IS AS HE ASKED ME TO NOT DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION."
Looking for more. Good Luck!
Edit to add sellera current auctions are equally "optimistic"
Eric
<< <i>"the jump from gifted blacksmith to US MInt engraver is a big one. >>
Indeed. You are right. To clarify the Q & A that went on, I asked if it was possible that the gifted blacksmith COULD have been a US Mint engraver to which the response was indeed it was possible, not that it was definite.
Part of the problem in our discussion is I did not have made it absolutely clear to this bell expert what US Mint engravers do in the US Mint. For that matter, I am probably not an expert on what they did between 1790 and the early part of the 19th century either!
<< <i>
<< <i>"the jump from gifted blacksmith to US MInt engraver is a big one. >>
Indeed. You are right. To clarify the Q & A that went on, I asked if it was possible that the gifted blacksmith COULD have been a US Mint engraver to which the response was indeed it was possible, not that it was definite.
Part of the problem in our discussion is I did not have made it absolutely clear to this bell expert what US Mint engravers do in the US Mint. For that matter, I am probably not an expert on what they did between 1790 and the early part of the 19th century either! >>
That makes two of us! I hope you continue to keep us posted with your hunt!
Best wishes,
Eric
It appears that this bell may have actually been manufactured in London, England.
I have to take a trip to London to visit WhiteChapel to confirm this.
I could not go last year but may take a trip this year to meet with the experts at WhiteChapel.
Here is their web site.
WhiteChapel
I will await their comments on this bell.
<< <i>I remember this thread. I guess the verdict is still out on the authenticity of this item. >>
I don't believe there was or is any chance this is a Mint bell. There is no reason to think so.
Eric