<< <i>I guess the first thing I would do is ask some one who is an expert in bells or the manufacturing of old bells what they thought of it. >>
I'm no expert but I did do some reading years ago on bells of the period, specifically the Liberty Bell and efforts to repair it.
<< <i>Would not a bell have some maker's mark on it? >>
The maker's name could be proudly displayed or not at all.
<< <i>I also wonder if a paint chip could be tested to figure anything out. >>
Bells aren't painted. Paint changes the tone and it would certainly spall.
<< <i> It must contain lead in the paint at the very least? >>
No paint, and little if any lead in the bell - that would spoil the tone. What the bell almost certainly contains that could help identify the origin is antimony.
<< <i>How the bell was attached to what is holding it seems oh so crude. I would have thought the connection would have been better or perhaps it was repaired? >>
You have to be very careful when making repairs to bells - something Americans learned the hard way: the first attempt to repair the Liberty Bell ruined its tone entirely.
<< <i>I wonder why the chain has paint on it? >>
The bell is bronze. The chain is probably much-cheaper iron or possibly zinc, painted for rust-resistance. It would also serve as a form of anodic protection, I think - meaning that an iron-copper connection, when exposed to the elements, the iron or zinc part oxidizes (rusts) in preference to the copper developing a patina.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>Interesting artifact, if provable, but not really numismatic. The pillars from the Second Mint still exist, but they don't belong in the Redbook. >>
I would think any artifact from one of the earlier U. S. Mints would be of numismatic interest. Congrats on a neat purchase but good luck proving it's authenticity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the Mint had a bell in use until 1902, there should be photos or drawings showing it. Photography was widely used by that point, and there may also be engravings showing different parts of the mint.
As to authenticity and attribution, that's a question for the experts. However, I doubt the seller was trying to target coin collectors with some kind of scam. He didn't even list it in a coin category, but rather in two other random categories -
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
THE PIECE ALSO COMES WITH A PAPER ATTACHED TO A PERIOD WOOD BOARD AND READS IN PERIOD INK: "ORIGINAL BELL AND BELL PULL USED IN THE OLD U.S. MINT FOR MANY YEARS BEFORE ELECTRIC BELLS CAME IN.
$2000 seems a bit much to pay for an item such as this where authenticy has not been sufficiently established.No return or exchange either doesn't help.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Buying this potential piece of history is akin to buying a penny stock. Once in a blue moon we all take a stab at trying to grab ahold of awesome history.
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me.
Good Luck!! You will get your money's worth just researching this bell. Please keep us informed as to how your research turns out. Very cool purchase!! I hope the Mint's researcher can help you out with some early pictures. There must be some in all the artifacts they have.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
<< <i>I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing. >>
While I was (and remain) a bit skeptical of the authenticity of the bell I sure am pulling for this to be a big win for Oreville. Kudos to him for taking a flyer on saving a piece of numismatic history. That bell looks to me like it was rung hard and often wherever it served.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>It is neat, but even with the provenance I think it's over priced. >>
If it's real, it was a bargain.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Buying this potential piece of history is akin to buying a penny stock. Once in a blue moon we all take a stab at trying to grab ahold of awesome history.
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me. >>
I don't think you overpaid. I also was going to buy this. Had a few back and forths with the seller. He said his bottom line was $2,300. I was contemplating buying it even at that price but you beat me to it! Congrats, and I really hope you do the research and get to the end of it (and ideally get it authenticated). Would be a real cool little bell. Good luck!
Wrong building. That was the first U.S. Mint, built in 1792. This purports to be from the second U.S. Mint, built in the 1830's.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Looks like a great adventure to me - way to go, Oreville!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>Buying this potential piece of history is akin to buying a penny stock. Once in a blue moon we all take a stab at trying to grab ahold of awesome history.
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me.[/
Good luck!! I bought 750 shares of AMR 5 weeks ago, reguardless you will end up better than I.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I am missing something. I looked at all those offerings (Imperial Russia, bookplates as maps, poorly "made" early 19th century primitive art dated to 1900-1949?) - didn't Louie round most all of that stuff up after Rick shot Major Strasser? I must have read past something. I see a lot of slimy sale catchphrases. Infectious bad feedback online at TH, complaints of selling fakes all over the place, no returns, "as IS", "private auction", many "unusual" items, and nothing but a bit of very easily forged paper and old wood? Most of this stuff or things like it can be had on 26TH street every weekend in NYC. Sulfurous paper and wood and all given - none of my hundreds of C. 1900 letters, photographs or papers look anywhere near this bad and they were "cared for" with much less concern that this should/would have been, even if that brown paper is glued down with hygroscopic hide glue the condition still looks contrived. Overcooked. That is the flaw in nearly all forged Titanic postcards I have examined - they are overdone. Where is the PROVENance some are talking about? What is on the other side of the umm... coin that at least balances out what can be observed? I see what the paper says, I see what he sells and specializes in but I don't see anything being proven, just suggested. Only hard facts I see are NO RETURNS, AS IS etc. and a LOT of unhappy customers on eBay and online. If I have something in my gut, anything beyond "it looks old" I often follow my instincts (to good end), but I am not currently seeing enough here to warrant much beyond wishful thinking? What did I miss? I am all for "too good to be true" - last year I bought a $4K book, a truly historic item containing messages from Einstein and Mann, whose brothers reside in private and public collections and monasteries around the world, for $20, but then I knew exactly what it was and could verify its authenticity myself as I have sold those items and others like it for 10 years or more. However, I am not a bell expert
Is it a historic bargain of... dare I say...History? Even if genuine? You can buy small chunks of the Lusitania wreck for 1/3 of that price or less, with impervious documentation. Hindenburg is even cheaper. $2000 can get you (when offered) a full cut crystal chandelier from Titanic's sister Olympic - First Class, ormolu...original wiring...Heck, I just sold a 9 foot pilaster from the Mauretania's lounge, all hand carved old growth solid mahogany with carved double ram's head capitol with Britannia in true gilded gesso.....carved in 1906 - same neck of the woods $$ wise and provenance back to the 1935 auction by direct descent with photography in situ back to 1907. You can buy bits of structures from the 1939 New York World's Fair for less than this with full documentation and a letter from the original manufacturer. You can buy four 1870's small woodcuts "by" Winslow Homer (from Our Young Folks) for less than this. Was this bell a bargain? I can't say. I hope I am wrong! We have all had things "too good to be true" happen many, many times - I hope we learn something good here Good luck Oreville! In this case, with this sellers ID, I hope there is no truth in advertising!
Eric
Some tidbits from his other auctions:
"I PURCHASED THIS AT A PENNSYLVANIA ANTIQUE MARKET. I TRUST THE DEALER THAT I PURCHASED THIS FROM AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE PERSON THAT HE PURCHASED THE PIECE FROM UNEARTHED THE PIPE HEAD AROUND PENNSBURY MANOR (WILLIAM PENN'S HOME). APPARENTLY..."
"I ALSO HAD A WELL KNOWN ARCHAEOLOGIST IN PHILADELPHIA EXAMINE AND AUTHENTICATE THE PIECE. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHO HE IS AS HE ASKED ME TO NOT DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION."
I still remember my high school history teacher not liking me because I said to her : "what's the use in history ? If it repeats itself then all the lessons have been taught". I didn't do so well in her class. Kudos to the winner ! I love history now that it's forty years later.
If additional fascinating U.S. Mint relics start to appear from the same seller, I might think this was a baited hook dropped into the water to see if there's any interest in such material.
The handwriting on the Bristol board card shows the classic way a dip Pen must be worked to create this tag. The style of the written p and d suggest to me the penman may have been elderly since these letter styles were archaic in 1902. The card seems to be cracked lower right ... Maybe someone "peeked" behind it.
It looks like any other old bell one might see in any old house.Ive seen these in kitchens and they get rung from the dining room for service.The little red ribbon mint medallion is the one thing that clearly doesnt belong with it and the purpose of which is to bolster confidence.Theres a tv show called History Detectives and i bet they would love to investigate this for you.
Ah, I was not even considering that ribbon and medal as part of this - pepper in the salt to me. Even if the paper and ink are vintage, it proves what? How do we know it is not some "enthusiast piece" (a term used by sellers of period repros or fakes they know are not quite right...). I get stuff all the time "said to be" from this or that - meaningless unless there are photographs and a chain of ownership, at least. If this was written out speaking of 1902 in the past tense, just how old is this paper supposed to be looking like that? Would such a note be written on what appears to be pulp? If a lot of his other stuff looks "optimistic" - why would this be any different? I still think I am missing something or misread something. If this were "said to be" Marilyn Monroe's lipstick or Lugosi's cape I think we would all want something besides a slip of paper. Even a Dracula cape with a letter from "Uncle Forry" Forrest Ackerman does not make the cape genuine - you'd need that, identifiable photographs, a letter from Bela Jr. and the right labels etc..then maybe. Sure there are auction houses that sell little swatches, but they come with...little slips of paper saying so and so said so. In this instance I know those swatches are fake - the auction house has been taken to task many times. But they still sell. Did Oreville buy the holder and not the bell? I hope not! I don't want to be a naysayer - but what is there really here?
Very cool piece and something that would likely have been saved from the Mint (first or second). However, I'd be suspicious of the authenticity. Also remember, the mint may have had several "door bells" throughout its building(s) so even if real, this may have been one of many bells. As I recall, the first mint was comprised of at least 4 separate buildings.
I'll add that the seller does appear to deal in antiques and is from Philadelphia which doesn't hurt his arguement.
Looking through the sellers items i got as far as page 1 halfway down , the iron pipe holder. Its claimed this was dug up and is 18th C , as a long time metal detectorist i'd seen enough. Iron doesnt come out the ground after 300 years pristine and ready for use. I don't think being in the Phillie area counts for much , every 2nd street is antique stores full of faked crap in this area.Want some genuine American folk art ?..gimme an hour for the paint to dry.
I wonder why any of my old paper items of the same vintage or earlier, when cracked or broken, (especially sulfurous paper glued to wood, or pulp paper) fail to reveal bright white interior fibers like this on the break near the right lower corner?
Eric
Edited to add: Ambro, how did you determine this is Bristol board when you can't see the other side?
<< <i>I don't think being in the Phillie area counts for much , every 2nd street is antique stores full of faked crap in this area. >>
I only pointed out the Philadelphia connection as it may provide a bit (only a bit) more comfort. I know when the first mint was destroyed, many items were scavenged by local people and many of these items may still exist in the Philadelphia area. If the seller was located in Miami, Milwaukee, or China, I'd be more suspect than I already am.
<< <i>I don't think being in the Phillie area counts for much , every 2nd street is antique stores full of faked crap in this area. >>
I only pointed out the Philadelphia connection as it may provide a bit (only a bit) more comfort. I know when the first mint was destroyed, many items were scavenged by local people and many of these items may still exist in the Philadelphia area. If the seller was located in Miami, Milwaukee, or China, I'd be more suspect than I already am. >>
I do see your point,absolutely. I live in possibly the oldest most historical part of this area , the liberty bell was hidden in the local bar here during the revolution so the Brits couldn't find it in Philly. What ive noticed is a multitude of antique stores and the areas history promotes a lot of this "genuine relics". I used to also watch a show called "lovejoy" , it was about an antique dealer and each episode showed how he could fake just about anything , written documents were a piece of cake.
<< <i>Bristol board is hard surfaced an you can write with a dip pen without it soaking into the fibers and spreading. >>
Yeah, I know. But Bristol board is distinguished from the other illustrations boards by being finished on both sides. Cheaper material, like Bainbridge, is finished on one side only. You been using X-ray glasses? Anyway, I'd guess Bristol paper, not multi-ply board in this context. Yes, a gut instinct is great - I use mine often to advantage (and I am only 118 lbs!) but based on WHAT in this auction????? It looks like a bell? The paper says so? What?
Interesting thread, it will be a difficult one for Oreville to prove! The seller has some intriguing old books and manuscripts, I even considered buying the early American Revolution book. The part of the package that looks out of place is the thick copper wire bell pull. With the 2nd and 3rd Mint buildings being grand structures, I think it would be unlikely that a copper wire would be attached as a crude noose in a formal building, an extension of a decorative chain would be more likely. But, I suppose it could have been added after the salvage.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
There seems to be some confusion about this reputed US Mint pull bell.
There were probably at least 3 or 4 pull bells used at the US Mint over 110 years ago. This bell was more likely to have been used inside the US Mint building than outside. It explains why the bell shows relatively little corrosion. The pull chain may have been replaced more than once.
My historical book report I had to do for my merit badge in the Boy Scouts was to investigate the use of pull bells in the US Mint back before electricity was used (I double dipped and also used it for school). I even took a polaroid picture of the US Mint exhibit but can't find that old book report.
I visited the US Mint as a 13 year old in 1966 or 14 year old in 1967 when Our Boy Scout troop went on a big trip from New York to see Philly and various places.
According to an exhibit at the 3rd US Mint building, it was explained that bells were used in various minting rooms to signal lunchtime, special announcements and the end of the day, another bell was in the lunchroom to signal back to work etc. In their place, they installed remote controlled hard wired electronic bells then later, a PA system.
Pull bells were so common in the day (between 1830 and 1901) they were seen as junk. Nothing special about them at all. the problem is that precious few bothered to save them. Many people continued to use them well after 1901 in areas where it was not feasible to install electricity or more likely "part of the charm" in summer homes, farms, museums, schools, etc.
Also when the US Mint moved from the 2nd US Mint building to the 3rd US Mint building in 1901 was electricity hard wired throughout the new building? I do not know but will find out. Electricity was coming into the area at the time.
Perhaps I am more excited about making a possible connection to my book report I did 45 years ago than anything else.
I plan on visiting with the oldest and longest continuous remaining USA bell manufacturer of small bells who have been around since the 1830's. There's used to be dozens of them, now supposedly only one left. They are located in Connecticut.
I will add more comments but working with a Ipad is not the easiest!
<< <i>My historical book report I had to do for my merit badge in the Boy Scouts was to investigate the use of pull bells in the US Mint back before electricity was used (I double dipped and also used it for school). I even took a polaroid picture of the US Mint exhibit but can't find that old book report. >>
That is an astounding confluence of events ... very cool
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>There were probably at least 3 or 4 pull bells used at the US Mint over 110 years ago. This bell was more likely to have been used inside the US Mint building than outside. It explains why the bell shows relatively little corrosion. The pull chain may have been replaced more than once. >>
Excellent point, Oreville. I don't believe "this was the door bell" as stated in the historical description, hanging on the marble facade of the Second Mint entry, but it certainly could have been an interior workplace bell.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Some people I work with in another arena (inks, papers, typeface, fonts, letterpress, photographs, postcards etc.) saw this and thought the same thing apart from all the obvious flags - the date seems rather late. Electric doorbells were invented nearly 80 years before this. Just when was electricity introduced to the Mint? I am still trying to understand the apparent fact this was bought because of a slip of paper? If Oreville recalled THIS bell, I'd be on board much faster.
Comments
<< <i>I guess the first thing I would do is ask some one who is an expert in bells or the
manufacturing of old bells what they thought of it. >>
I'm no expert but I did do some reading years ago on bells of the period, specifically the Liberty Bell and efforts to repair it.
<< <i>Would not a bell have some maker's mark on it? >>
The maker's name could be proudly displayed or not at all.
<< <i>I also wonder if a paint chip could be tested to figure anything out. >>
Bells aren't painted. Paint changes the tone and it would certainly spall.
<< <i> It must contain lead in the paint at the very least? >>
No paint, and little if any lead in the bell - that would spoil the tone. What the bell almost certainly contains that could help identify the origin is antimony.
<< <i>How the bell was attached to what is holding it seems oh so crude. I would have
thought the connection would have been better or perhaps it was repaired? >>
You have to be very careful when making repairs to bells - something Americans learned the hard way: the first attempt to repair the Liberty Bell ruined its tone entirely.
<< <i>I wonder why the chain has paint on it? >>
The bell is bronze. The chain is probably much-cheaper iron or possibly zinc, painted for rust-resistance. It would also serve as a form of anodic protection, I think - meaning that an iron-copper connection, when exposed to the elements, the iron or zinc part oxidizes (rusts) in preference to the copper developing a patina.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>Interesting artifact, if provable, but not really numismatic. The pillars from the Second Mint still exist, but they don't belong in the Redbook. >>
I would think any artifact from one of the earlier U. S. Mints would be of numismatic interest. Congrats on a neat purchase but good luck proving it's authenticity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As to authenticity and attribution, that's a question for the experts. However, I doubt the seller was trying to target coin collectors with some kind of scam. He didn't even list it in a coin category, but rather in two other random categories -
Collectibles > Historical Memorabilia > Banking & Insurance > Other
Collectibles > Historical Memorabilia > Inventors & Geniuses
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I would think any artifact from one of the earlier U. S. Mints would be of numismatic interest. >>
I agree. And if this is genuine it is way way cool.
$2000 seems a bit much to pay for an item such as this where authenticy has not been sufficiently established.No return or exchange either doesn't help.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me.
<< <i>I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing. >>
While I was (and remain) a bit skeptical of the authenticity of the bell I sure am pulling for this to be a big win for Oreville.
Kudos to him for taking a flyer on saving a piece of numismatic history.
That bell looks to me like it was rung hard and often wherever it served.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>It is neat, but even with the provenance I think it's over priced. >>
If it's real, it was a bargain.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Buying this potential piece of history is akin to buying a penny stock. Once in a blue moon we all take a stab at trying to grab ahold of awesome history.
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me. >>
I don't think you overpaid.
I also was going to buy this. Had a few back and forths with the seller. He said his bottom line was $2,300. I was contemplating buying it even at that price
<< <i>Photo taking in 1908.
Wrong building. That was the first U.S. Mint, built in 1792. This purports to be from the second U.S. Mint, built in the 1830's.
<< <i>Buying this potential piece of history is akin to buying a penny stock. Once in a blue moon we all take a stab at trying to grab ahold of awesome history.
As I previously stated, this is simply a reputed pull bell used at the old US Mint.
if I can get to 80% probability that this was used at the US Mint, I will be satisfied but I still aim for that 100% as it would be fun to prove the naysayers wrong.
I hope the naysayers are secretly rooting for this to be the real thing.
After all, this is only a pull bell. The naysayers will also be winners if this turns out to be real as well if fake.
Another thing, I agree that this is not numismatics but extra-exonumia.
Last but not least, I admit that I probably overpaid by at least $500 to $1000 for this pull bell but I also know that I was not going to get the chance to play historian with this bell for anything less than $2000.
Indeed, this is a case of someone else junk being a treasure to me.[/
Good luck!! I bought 750 shares of AMR 5 weeks ago, reguardless you will end up better than I.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Photo taking in 1908.
It is SUCH a shame that this was torn down!
Is it a historic bargain of... dare I say...History? Even if genuine? You can buy small chunks of the Lusitania wreck for 1/3 of that price or less, with impervious documentation. Hindenburg is even cheaper. $2000 can get you (when offered) a full cut crystal chandelier from Titanic's sister Olympic - First Class, ormolu...original wiring...Heck, I just sold a 9 foot pilaster from the Mauretania's lounge, all hand carved old growth solid mahogany with carved double ram's head capitol with Britannia in true gilded gesso.....carved in 1906 - same neck of the woods $$ wise and provenance back to the 1935 auction by direct descent with photography in situ back to 1907. You can buy bits of structures from the 1939 New York World's Fair for less than this with full documentation and a letter from the original manufacturer. You can buy four 1870's small woodcuts "by" Winslow Homer (from Our Young Folks) for less than this. Was this bell a bargain? I can't say. I hope I am wrong! We have all had things "too good to be true" happen many, many times - I hope we learn something good here
Eric
Some tidbits from his other auctions:
"I PURCHASED THIS AT A PENNSYLVANIA ANTIQUE MARKET. I TRUST THE DEALER THAT I PURCHASED THIS FROM AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE PERSON THAT HE PURCHASED THE PIECE FROM UNEARTHED THE PIPE HEAD AROUND PENNSBURY MANOR (WILLIAM PENN'S HOME). APPARENTLY..."
"I ALSO HAD A WELL KNOWN ARCHAEOLOGIST IN PHILADELPHIA EXAMINE AND AUTHENTICATE THE PIECE. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHO HE IS AS HE ASKED ME TO NOT DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION."
I didn't do so well in her class. Kudos to the winner ! I love history now that it's forty years later.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
the same seller, I might think this was a baited hook dropped
into the water to see if there's any interest in such material.
Eric
I'll add that the seller does appear to deal in antiques and is from Philadelphia which doesn't hurt his arguement.
thats enough verification for me.
Eric
Edited to add: Ambro, how did you determine this is Bristol board when you can't see the other side?
<< <i>I don't think being in the Phillie area counts for much , every 2nd street is antique stores full of faked crap in this area. >>
I only pointed out the Philadelphia connection as it may provide a bit (only a bit) more comfort. I know when the first mint was destroyed, many items were scavenged by local people and many of these items may still exist in the Philadelphia area. If the seller was located in Miami, Milwaukee, or China, I'd be more suspect than I already am.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think being in the Phillie area counts for much , every 2nd street is antique stores full of faked crap in this area. >>
I only pointed out the Philadelphia connection as it may provide a bit (only a bit) more comfort. I know when the first mint was destroyed, many items were scavenged by local people and many of these items may still exist in the Philadelphia area. If the seller was located in Miami, Milwaukee, or China, I'd be more suspect than I already am. >>
I do see your point,absolutely. I live in possibly the oldest most historical part of this area , the liberty bell was hidden in the local bar here during the revolution so the Brits couldn't find it in Philly. What ive noticed is a multitude of antique stores and the areas history promotes a lot of this "genuine relics". I used to also watch a show called "lovejoy" , it was about an antique dealer and each episode showed how he could fake just about anything , written documents were a piece of cake.
<< <i>Bristol board is hard surfaced an you can write with a dip pen without it soaking into the fibers and spreading. >>
Yeah, I know. But Bristol board is distinguished from the other illustrations boards by being finished on both sides. Cheaper material, like Bainbridge, is finished on one side only. You been using X-ray glasses?
Yes, a gut instinct is great - I use mine often to advantage (and I am only 118 lbs!) but based on WHAT in this auction????? It looks like a bell? The paper says so? What?
Eric
<< <i>Eric I'd love to debate this more but I need to go out and change the spark plugs in my Santos Dumont Airship. >>
Hah! Was that supposed to go over my head?
Chat soon,
Eric
There were probably at least 3 or 4 pull bells used at the US Mint over 110 years ago. This bell was more likely to have been used inside the US Mint building than outside. It explains why the bell shows relatively little corrosion. The pull chain may have been replaced more than once.
My historical book report I had to do for my merit badge in the Boy Scouts was to investigate the use of pull bells in the US Mint back before electricity was used (I double dipped and also used it for school). I even took a polaroid picture of the US Mint exhibit but can't find that old book report.
I visited the US Mint as a 13 year old in 1966 or 14 year old in 1967 when Our Boy Scout troop went on a big trip from New York to see Philly and various places.
According to an exhibit at the 3rd US Mint building, it was explained that bells were used in various minting rooms to signal lunchtime, special announcements and the end of the day, another bell was in the lunchroom to signal back to work etc. In their place, they installed remote controlled hard wired electronic bells then later, a PA system.
Pull bells were so common in the day (between 1830 and 1901) they were seen as junk. Nothing special about them at all. the problem is that precious few bothered to save them. Many people continued to use them well after 1901 in areas where it was not feasible to install electricity or more likely "part of the charm" in summer homes, farms, museums, schools, etc.
Also when the US Mint moved from the 2nd US Mint building to the 3rd US Mint building in 1901 was electricity hard wired throughout the new building? I do not know but will find out. Electricity was coming into the area at the time.
Perhaps I am more excited about making a possible connection to my book report I did 45 years ago than anything else.
I plan on visiting with the oldest and longest continuous remaining USA bell manufacturer of small bells who have been around since the 1830's. There's used to be dozens of them, now supposedly only one left. They are located in Connecticut.
I will add more comments but working with a Ipad is not the easiest!
<< <i>My historical book report I had to do for my merit badge in the Boy Scouts was to investigate the use of pull bells in the US Mint back before electricity was used (I double dipped and also used it for school). I even took a polaroid picture of the US Mint exhibit but can't find that old book report. >>
That is an astounding confluence of events ... very cool
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>There were probably at least 3 or 4 pull bells used at the US Mint over 110 years ago. This bell was more likely to have been used inside the US Mint building than outside. It explains why the bell shows relatively little corrosion. The pull chain may have been replaced more than once. >>
Excellent point, Oreville. I don't believe "this was the door bell" as stated in the historical description, hanging on the marble facade of the Second Mint entry, but it certainly could have been an interior workplace bell.
Some people I work with in another arena (inks, papers, typeface, fonts, letterpress, photographs, postcards etc.) saw this and thought the same thing apart from all the obvious flags - the date seems rather late. Electric doorbells were invented nearly 80 years before this. Just when was electricity introduced to the Mint? I am still trying to understand the apparent fact this was bought because of a slip of paper? If Oreville recalled THIS bell, I'd be on board much faster.
Best,
Eric
Eric
Eric