New to the forums, peace dollar questions
oneor11
Posts: 208
Hello everyone! My name is Jacob and I am new to PCGS and the forums. I'm an amateur coin collector that has been removed from the hobby when I sold my small collection over fifteen years ago. It feels great to be back and be part of a community of people that are passionate about the beauty and history of coins. I'd like to participate in the forums and leverage your expertise to learn more. So I'll probably be posting quite a few questions. So to get warmed up, here is one:
I decided to start working on a MS set of Peace Dollars. My primary source of coins at the moment will probably be eBay. The trouble I have is discerning the difference between the mint state grades. The PCGS site seems to indicate it's only a difference between bag marks, where those bag marks are, and the strike and luster of the coin. This seems very subjective for my amateur self and was wondering if there were any systematic approaches for judging MS peace dollars. Like "If x strands of hair are visible in the back of the head, and X amount of bag marks are present in X location, then the grade is 63" or something like that.
Part of the excitement would be to buy ungraded coins from eBay...just to test and practice my skills and to build up eight coins for my free membership submissions, which unfortunately have to be submitted to PCGS all at one time for grading. However, as you know the price swings so dramatically between grades it's a gamble for me. I picked up a 34-S from eBay that I need to send in. The seller seemed reputable and graded it as a 60. To me it looks nicer. Overall though I'm nervous about the grade. Also picked up a 1928 MS 64 PCGS CAC. Much less drama buying certified coins.
Anyway, long winded message....looking forward to learning from you guys in the forums.
Jacob
I decided to start working on a MS set of Peace Dollars. My primary source of coins at the moment will probably be eBay. The trouble I have is discerning the difference between the mint state grades. The PCGS site seems to indicate it's only a difference between bag marks, where those bag marks are, and the strike and luster of the coin. This seems very subjective for my amateur self and was wondering if there were any systematic approaches for judging MS peace dollars. Like "If x strands of hair are visible in the back of the head, and X amount of bag marks are present in X location, then the grade is 63" or something like that.
Part of the excitement would be to buy ungraded coins from eBay...just to test and practice my skills and to build up eight coins for my free membership submissions, which unfortunately have to be submitted to PCGS all at one time for grading. However, as you know the price swings so dramatically between grades it's a gamble for me. I picked up a 34-S from eBay that I need to send in. The seller seemed reputable and graded it as a 60. To me it looks nicer. Overall though I'm nervous about the grade. Also picked up a 1928 MS 64 PCGS CAC. Much less drama buying certified coins.
Anyway, long winded message....looking forward to learning from you guys in the forums.
Jacob
0
Comments
If you bought a 1928 Peace in PCGS/CAC MS64 you spent some change.
It's going to be awefully tough discerning MS grades on raw, eBay coins and Peace dollars can be a very tough series in-hand! Luster and eye appeal play a big role when grading MS coins. The technical grade is easier but still difficult from images alone.
I would hit coin shops and shows (if possible) and stick with certified pieces until you get some experience.
Best of luck!
Very hard to judge grades from pictures and Ebay has no consistency with the pics. So, even harder
there than on Heritage or other similar venues.
Strike and luster are the hardest to discern for me from pics. What looks like a soft strike is just a
lousy pic and lighting affects the luster results immensely. If you get good, doing it on ebay with
raw dollars, you will make a ton of money (when you sell).
Good luck,
bob
I'm relatively new here myself, but my story is similar to yours. I started putting together an MS Peace date/MM set a little over a year ago after coming back to the hobby after a long absence. Maybe I can offer a bit of advice to jump-start you past some things I've learned the hard way.
For the most part, I've been pretty lucky. I've had no major disasters in acquiring my current set, but I've certainly overpaid for a few things along the way. I've also been lucky enough to pick up a few nice pieces for less than I could sell them for, so the total cost of my tuition has been quite tollerable. I'm gaining experience with this particular series and I'm getting to be reasonably good at grading the coins I've seen the most of - Peace Dollars in the range of AU55-MS66. I'm by no means an expert, and I still lean quite heavily on third-party opinion when it comes to my collection. It is, after all, a bit of a pricey hobby.
Let me start by reviewing the likelihood of putting together a nice set from raw coins on eBay. It is possible to make killer finds, buy raw coins, and get them slabbed, but it's extrememly unlikely that you'll do it before you have a tremendous amount of experience and a good eye for grading. Let's take the 1934-S as an example. Roughly 1,000,000 were minted. CoinFacts estimates that roughly 35,000 survive today. Of those, they estimte 4,500 in grades 60 and higher. Roughly 1,100 MS coins have been graded by NGC and around 1,500 have been graded by PCGS. Actual numbers are probably less, since people play the breakout game quite frequently with key date coins. Also, there are a few nice 34-s coins in other grading services' plastic. Lets estimate that there are no more than 2,000 MS 1934-S coins still out there in a raw state. The vast majority of these are likely held by people who know what they are. Lets say there are maybe 500 that could hit the market by an unsuspecting owner. A very slight few of these will make it to a public auciton conducted by non-numismatists. Contrast that with the other 31,000 coins that people try to circulate on the auction sites on a daily basis. If a knowledgable individual really thought his coin was an MS-60, why did he sell it to you instead of getting it slabbed himself? If he isn't knowledgable, then it's more likely to be a cleaned or problem coin than a coin that would make the grade.
I collected a set of so-so nice coins from the bay, usually picking the best coin from a selection of maybe 50 or 100 that I looked through. Some obvious cleaning disasters and lusterless coins are easy to spot. Some photos really suggest a nice coin, but it's easy to be fooled. I didn't pay stupid money and I returned plenty of coins that didn't look so good in hand.
After getting my set of 24 together, I also purchased some complete albums (24 coins each) for a touch over melt value. I looked at them carefully, with magnification and good light. Most of them (80%) showed evidence of significant wear or prior cleaning. The best 14 or 16 got sent in to PCGS. I still had about half get no-holdered for cleaning or questionable coloring. Of the others, I had one semi-key grade at MS64, some common dates grade 63 and one 64, and most of the lot graded between AU58 to MS62 (sliders). All of these I sold, making almost enough on the nicer ones to cover my initial cost and the grading fees. But, I learned. In total, from around 100 supposedly "gem", BU, MS, handpicked, estate, gradma's atic coins, I had around 8 or 10 that graded.
That was many months ago. Since that time I've adopted a personal rule to not buy anything worth over $100 or so that wasn't already in plastic. I haven't seen too much noise about fake Peace dollars in fake slabs, but it's always in the back of my mind. I've steadily upgraded my set (paying the usual commisions at each step of the way), and today it's a respectable peace dollar collection. There are many, many finer, but I'm not too far from the first page in PCGS's registry. Of the 24 coins in my set, 2 are still from the bay, with one being replaced this week when a new coin arrives. I have coins from 12 different sources, some auction houses, some from internet delaers, some from shows. Almost all of them are either plus or green bean coins. A couple of them are coins that I just like regardless of their specific grade and a couple of highly regarded coins I don't care for as much.
I plan on keeping these for a good long while and my interests are slowly broadening to the early 1800s and maybe even some ancients. Just can't like Lincolns, Jeffs, or Morgans for some reason. I'm under no illusions that I'm playing this game to make money. I would like to feel that I'm exercising an appropriate level of caution while taking part in a very enjoyable hobby.
Bottom line:
1) Dabble in sight-unseen raw coins from public auctions if you must, but don't pay much over melt and don't buy without a return option.
2) Get experience in grading from a mentor, a friendly dealer, a club, or someone else before just sending stuff to the grading services. Chances are they'll weed out your "best" coins down to maybe 1/3 of what you would have submitted.
3) Enjoy collecting Peace Dollars. Their flaws, their limitations, their design, and their beauty make them my favorite series.
4) Remember crooks and landmines are everywhere. Friends, and fellow hobbyists are here.
Here are some amateur photos of the 34-S I bought. I also need to learn how to take photos heh. I'll be submitting it next week I think. In the interim, let me know what you guys think. I paid an MS-60 price for it, which was quite a chunk of change for me. Let me know your opinion and if I'm taking a bath on this first impulsive, undisciplined purchase.
THanks again for all of the help.
Jacob
IMO that is a dipped AU55 due to shoulder rub and scattered marks. It should holder but not as UNC. that said a lustrous AU has a good value too and your losses should be minimal. Stick to PCGS graded Peace dollars if that is what you what your set to comprise of. They are one of the harder coins to grade from the 20th Cen and dealers almost never see eye to eye with PCGS. Here is a low grade MS coin, compare the eagle's feather detail? The Rub Marks have been cleaned off so detail is paramount. Field frost MUST also be unbroken on these to be UNC
I think you will get a very expensive education if you follow through with your plan.
Grading coins via photo is not accurate.
Good luck.
Starting out with MS Peace dollars? Wow ... nothing like jumping into the deep end! If you are nervous about your grading skills, I strongly recommend sticking with PCGS graded Peace dollars (I am not a fan of the current grading by NGC or ANACS in this series) until you become comfortable with your ability to grade. You may wish to invest the time and money into a grading course by the ANA, either at their Summer Seminar or at a convention.
Best of luck to you ... and ENJOY!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Best of luck with the Peace $1 set.
A couple of mine
Mike
I think you will save a lot of money if you just buy already graded coins.
My advice is that until you're more proficient at grading stick to purchasing coins which are already certified by PCGS or NGC. This will help you avoid some expensive mistakes. You may also want to go out greysheet.com and purchase a copy of the current weekly price sheet which gives pricing on peace dollars. Lastly, take a look at this site's BST (Buy-Sell-Trade) forum which you can find on the navigation drop down menu in the upper right.
Happy collecting!
Andrew
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
I to collect Peace Dollars - I only have about half of them for the series, trying to put together all PCGS 64 or greater... It takes time to find nice coins without paying a premium.
<< <i>Thanks for the opinions and pictures. I can definitely see where you're coming from. This morning was the first time I took pictures of the coin so I can put in this thread. When I uploaded the pics, I thought, "hmm, look at all those marks." One thing I have learned here is that a simple 12 megapixel photo brings out all sorts of things that aren't readily or clearly visible at first glance with the eye or with a look through the glass. >>
Consider buying a x30 loupe (magnifying lens). Won't help with the eBay purchases but can help a lot grading in hand. And welcome to the forums!
<< <i>Your photo quality is actually pretty good. I agree that this coin demonstrates wear, and therefore by definition, not MS. It also doesn't look like a typical MS60 or 61 coin. Most of them have loads of ugly bagmarks. Your coin is actually pretty clean in terms of marks and abrasions. Unfortunately though if looks to have pretty obvious hairlines running in an 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock direction. If you can see directional hairlines in-hand with a light source placed at a low angle as you slowly rotate the coin it will almost certainly earn a no-grade holder. Sorry, but I feel it's pretty likely. >>
Save your submission fee .. or better yet, return the coin for a refund & stick with PCGS or NGC certified coins if buying from an eBay dealer.
<< <i>Thanks for the responses everyone. You all know how to make a new guy feel welcome. Thanks for sharing your detailed experiences Bryce. I need to learn from your patience and the logical way you think about the population of coins...almost like calculating odds heh. Thanks for posting your coin. That's an absolute beauty. What a clear field! It seems like it would be a good idea to study MS graded coins such as the one you posted to try to get an idea what many of the same grade look like.
Here are some amateur photos of the 34-S I bought. I also need to learn how to take photos heh. I'll be submitting it next week I think. In the interim, let me know what you guys think. I paid an MS-60 price for it, which was quite a chunk of change for me. Let me know your opinion and if I'm taking a bath on this first impulsive, undisciplined purchase.
THanks again for all of the help.
Jacob >>
I grade it AU55; notice the rub on the eagle's shoulder on the reverse and the wear on the Miss Liberty's hair on the front.
May I ask how long ago you bought the 34-S? If reasonably recent and still possible, I would seriously consider filing a claim (SNAD). This is one of those coins that have a huge jump in value (percentage-wise) from AU to MS and it is sickeningly common to see people fishing for unc money. I would be very surprised if the coin graded. Of course this is only my opinion judging from your photos - no offense is intended. If you "paid an MS60 price" for it (I assume trends, not sheet) that is a big hit to take over some seller's claim. Chances are (IMHO) if submitted, you are in for a huge letdown. I am sorry and wish you the best of luck.
<< <i>"The seller seemed reputable and graded it as a 60"Text
May I ask how long ago you bought the 34-S? If reasonably recent and still possible, I would seriously consider filing a claim (SNAD). This is one of those coins that have a huge jump in value (percentage-wise) from AU to MS and it is sickeningly common to see people fishing for unc money. I would be very surprised if the coin graded. Of course this is only my opinion judging from your photos - no offense is intended. If you "paid an MS60 price" for it (I assume trends, not sheet) that is a big hit to take over some seller's claim. Chances are (IMHO) if submitted, you are in for a huge letdown. I am sorry and wish you the best of luck. >>
Thanks. Yeah I purchased it late last month. The 14 day return policy expired. But I sent him a note today acknowledging that I was out of the return window but requested a refund or a buy back price. He promptly responded that he would do it minus some shipping and such. So I thought that was pretty grand of him. He seems to sell a lot of coins (all ungraded) and has 100% positive feedback with over 4500 feedback received.
Looks like I may have dodged a bullet. It's a good lesson learned heh.
Jacob
...
Also...before you buy the coin, buy the BOOK...and read it and understand it well. I suggest RWB's book on Peace Dollars. Roger Burdette. He is a great Peace Dollar expert that is active on the NGC forums. Good good guy!
Good luck and always ask questions! Err on the side of caution as well!
Greg
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Welcome! Create a login at http://coins.ha.com and look at photos of thousands and thousands of CERTIFIED Peace Dollars from previous auction results...and the ones coming up too of course. Be sure to research each date and mintmark carefully when you are shopping for a specific example. This will allow you to garner a general education of how to grade them. Look at CAC and + examples as a guide for the better examples of the grades. Look at the prices brought by them as well.
Also...before you buy the coin, buy the BOOK...and read it and understand it well. I suggest RWB's book on Peace Dollars. Roger Burdette. He is a great Peace Dollar expert that is active on the NGC forums. Good good guy!
Good luck and always ask questions! Err on the side of caution as well!
Greg >>
Wow awesome. Great site...both for learning and for shopping for coins it would seem! Thanks for the tip Greg.
<< <i>Thanks for the opinions and pictures. I can definitely see where you're coming from. This morning was the first time I took pictures of the coin so I can put in this thread. When I uploaded the pics, I thought, "hmm, look at all those marks." One thing I have learned here is that a simple 12 megapixel photo brings out all sorts of things that aren't readily or clearly visible at first glance with the eye or with a look through the glass. >>
Wow!!! I sure can relate to that statement. I too have a bias to this series and just last week began taking photos of some of my coins and just as you were, I was floored by how unflattering some of the photos are to my coins... I'm not sure if it's a product of my eyes not being as great as they used to be, or the lack of 'love and admiration' that come through on the photos since they're not being viewed through my "rose colored glasses".
Between that and Bryce's statistics on just how many of his Peace dollars graded, I'm really wondering whether I'd be wasting my money sending them in at all. As it is, they're happily housed in a Dansco album and as long as i don't look at them with that 30x loupe or a camera lens- they look pretty good...... But as I learn more and more, and their inperfections become more apparent, I'm left wondering just how 'off' my perceptions have been...
Thank you so much for sharing your hard earned experiences and for offering such great advice.
The 34-s is the weak coin in my complete set and I've been researching on how I might upgrade it.
I've been watching Ebay and other venues for several months now and have a couple of my local B&M's on the look out too
though I haven't found anything that's hit me between the eyes yet. In fact, my local store folks keep showing me beat up offerings that are worse than my current XF coin... So the nice ones REALLY are hard to find raw.... they can't even come up with any slabbed ones for me to consider.
I've been told that my set is pretty nice by some of the local dealers I've shared it with.... but perhaps they were 'just being nice'...
I know I can count on the folks in this forum to be honest (sometimes brutally so). So when I can muster up the courage and get some better photos of my Peace dollars- then hopefully the experienced group can help decide whether I'd be wasting my time and money pulling them out of their album home.... The coin club is another option mentioned and worth considering too...
Thank you again...
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Hoard the keys.
So in the tradition of the thread:
Another moderate newbie here with a Peace picked up on The Bay.
My strategy was to buy a grossly overgraded piece which had been certified by a low tier grading firm, recognizing that it was not even close to the MS 66 it was slabbed as and yet hoping to at least score a decent MS coin for my Dansco book. So I picked this up, cracked it out and booked it in the hopes that it would make a decent replacemrnt for a REALLY nice 27-s that I let go for way too little (when I knew even less than I do now which isn't a great deal) because it had some PVC issues.
The photos of the listing showed more lustre than my pics for some reason. The scratch in the field in front of the face is the most glaring problem in my perception but looking at the photos now I'm struck by some other things I didn't recognize until studying the enlargements.
Am I missing something?
Did I blow this one?
Do you think it would grade or come back 'genuine'?
Any and all insights and or slights for that matter are welcome.... Thanks
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Forgot the rev.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
edited to correct silly 2nd grade grammar problem
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the responses everyone. You all know how to make a new guy feel welcome. Thanks for sharing your detailed experiences Bryce. I need to learn from your patience and the logical way you think about the population of coins...almost like calculating odds heh. Thanks for posting your coin. That's an absolute beauty. What a clear field! It seems like it would be a good idea to study MS graded coins such as the one you posted to try to get an idea what many of the same grade look like.
Here are some amateur photos of the 34-S I bought. I also need to learn how to take photos heh. I'll be submitting it next week I think. In the interim, let me know what you guys think. I paid an MS-60 price for it, which was quite a chunk of change for me. Let me know your opinion and if I'm taking a bath on this first impulsive, undisciplined purchase.
THanks again for all of the help.
Jacob >>
I grade it AU55; notice the rub on the eagle's shoulder on the reverse and the wear on the Miss Liberty's hair on the front. >>
I'm not an expert but I have to agree with coinman with his grade opinion, it's not an MS coin.
<< <i>That 27-S looks like a nice enough coin. Buying stuff from random TPG's can work if you're careful and understand that they're almost universally overgraded. I think it would be worth sending in. You take a risk of them finding something they don't like and bagging it, but it has an MS62/63 look to me.
edited to correct silly 2nd grade grammar problem >>
Thank you Bryce. It looks like both Jacob and I both may have dodged a bullett with our purchases. I've certainly taken a few in the gut on some other coins and chauk it up to experience at this point.
Your experience, knowledge and sharing are very much appreciated by this fellow Peace series collector!
Thanks again
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the responses everyone. You all know how to make a new guy feel welcome. Thanks for sharing your detailed experiences Bryce. I need to learn from your patience and the logical way you think about the population of coins...almost like calculating odds heh. Thanks for posting your coin. That's an absolute beauty. What a clear field! It seems like it would be a good idea to study MS graded coins such as the one you posted to try to get an idea what many of the same grade look like.
Here are some amateur photos of the 34-S I bought. I also need to learn how to take photos heh. I'll be submitting it next week I think. In the interim, let me know what you guys think. I paid an MS-60 price for it, which was quite a chunk of change for me. Let me know your opinion and if I'm taking a bath on this first impulsive, undisciplined purchase.
THanks again for all of the help.
Jacob >>
I grade it AU55; notice the rub on the eagle's shoulder on the reverse and the wear on the Miss Liberty's hair on the front. >>
I'm not an expert but I have to agree with coinman with his grade opinion, it's not an MS coin.
Yes, it is a cleaned AU.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Nice one there Type2...must be that "free love" spirit from the 60's...
So in the tradition of the thread:
Another moderate newbie here with a Peace picked up on The Bay.
My strategy was to buy a grossly overgraded piece which had been certified by a low tier grading firm, recognizing that it was not even close to the MS 66 it was slabbed as and yet hoping to at least score a decent MS coin for my Dansco book. So I picked this up, cracked it out and booked it in the hopes that it would make a decent replacemrnt for a REALLY nice 27-s that I let go for way too little (when I knew even less than I do now which isn't a great deal) because it had some PVC issues.
The photos of the listing showed more lustre than my pics for some reason. The scratch in the field in front of the face is the most glaring problem in my perception but looking at the photos now I'm struck by some other things I didn't recognize until studying the enlargements.
Am I missing something?
Did I blow this one?
Do you think it would grade or come back 'genuine'?
Any and all insights and or slights for that matter are welcome.... Thanks
Is that damage on the rim by the date (from 6 o'clock to 8 o'clock)?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces