<< <i>You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed.
Markets are manipulated all of the time, and this is but another example. Purely speculation, but for every doll that gets sold for $200, I would be willing to bet that there is one that ends up in an unopened box collecting dust in someone's basement and gets thrown out years down the road. >>
I agree, markets can be manipulated, but that's the sort of stuff that happens when people propagate false information, or use insider trading knowledge. Speculation isn't the same as manipulation.
As long as people engage in willing transactions, with transparent knowledge, that's the free market working as designed.
I also agree the market may change and some people may be stuck with them, but so what, that's still the free market working as a check and balance on speculators.
<< <i>You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed.
Markets are manipulated all of the time, and this is but another example. Purely speculation, but for every doll that gets sold for $200, I would be willing to bet that there is one that ends up in an unopened box collecting dust in someone's basement and gets thrown out years down the road. >>
I agree, markets can be manipulated, but that's the sort of stuff that happens when people propagate false information, or use insider trading knowledge. Speculation isn't the same as manipulation.
As long as people engage in willing transactions, with transparent knowledge, that's the free market working as designed.
I also agree the market may change and some people may be stuck with them, but so what, that's still the free market working as a check and balance on speculators. >>
The way I see it, if hundreds of people are each taking dozens of dolls off the market and putting them in their basements and offering a doll or two at a time, the market has been manipulated, in the same way that the Arab countries manipulate the price of oil for their pleasure. There is no transparency to the market if the buyer does not know how many thousand are sitting in basements for eventual sale, nor does the buyer know how many dolls have been made. Additionally, though I do not follow the market for the dolls too closely, but what stops the manufacturer from releasing another 10,000 dolls next week?
The speculator offers no service and adds no value to the transaction. When the item is something like automobile fuel, one that I cannot do without, I do what I can to reduce consumption (minimize trips, drive a hybrid car, etc.). When the item is a doll, which many (maybe, most) would consider already an extravagant purchase at $100, I can very easily walk away.
Maybe I don't understand the problem with flipping. I bought 5 sealed sets and sold 5 sealed sets. I made a profit. In turn, I bought a 70 set and an opened set from other flippers who also made a profit. My margin might be greater than theirs because I sold early, but we all made money. Point being, willing sellers and willing buyers - so?
<< <i>The speculator offers no service and adds no value to the transaction. >>
They do to the people who don't want to sit at their computer refreshing the screen for hours at a time or get up at 2AM to wait in line in order to have an opportunity to buy some limited availability item.
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
I have been connected in one way or another to Ticket Resales since the age of about 8. (a very long time) and have alot of friends who own and operate multi-million dollar resale sites. Your comparrison really does not suffice as "putting out ones savings/credit" towards PM's or anything coin related for that matter, vrs securing and reselling of tickets to concerts, sporting or anything of that nature.
big, very big difference.
one has always been a way of life for alot of very successful friends of mine.
The market has NOT been manipulated. There is a short term spike in demand (which is NOT manipulation) which is allowing savvy people who anticipated that spike to profit.
EDIT: It's technically impossible to manipulate the free market of a non-essential commodity.
<< <i>For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store. >>
I don't see much of a difference in flipping, or the new term coined in this thread, "parasitic means", and price gouging.
Shortly after the twin towers were hit, some of the gasoline stations around here jacked the price up when the saw the lines form. I don't know how the cases turned out, but the Attorney General did go after them for price gouging. Same thing happens with generators every winter, the price goes up when the desperation sets in.. later, gouging claims are made, reputations are tarnished. Fine line between the two. In a truly free market, gouging ought to be considered normal behavior as well, I guess.
I sell things!.........coins, cars, homes & things of value that I think I can make a profit selling. I also have to buy these things I sell........sometimes the price asked is higher than I think I call sell for and make a reasonable profit. I am free to offer a seller my opinion of a fair price. That seller is free to accept or make a counter offer...........The key word being free (as in able to do without restraint)..........I do not ask my buyers if they intend to re-sell and make a profit (that is their business).............I don't see how anything could be more fair??? as always IMO
"Flipping" has always been a popular method of attempting to turn a profit for a fast buck. It happens with coins, real estate, cars, b/m businesses, etc. People generally enjoy getting rich quickly as opposed to conducting years of hard, dedicated labor.
When money gets tight like it is now for most Americans, people will find clever ways to try to make a few extra dollars through the minimum amount of effort possible. They hear stories of how someone buys something and immediately sells it for triple their cost. They can't help but think if they don't jump onto that bandwagon they're leaving money on the table.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Hmm, when I ended up with four Elton John concert tickets last summer, I gave two of them to our dear friends and the other two to our daughter and her boyfriend.
We could have tripled our cost of the tickets but felt better giving them to our friends and family.
Now when it comes to coins, that is another story. I try not to give anything away for free. Even to friends and family.
Exceptions are when sample slabs are given to me for free to give to other coin collectors as an example.
RYK, your posting here is just the modern day equivalent of a collector writing a letter to The Numismatist in the 1930's during the Commemorative Craze complaining about dealers buying up the majority of new releases (e. g.: Guttag Brothers and the Hudson Half Dollar) and then trying to sell them for a huge markup.
So, to those who say we're a new society, sorry, but the technology may have changed but human nature has not.
We are each uniquely different and beautiful in our own way. It's just that so many people can't see other's beauty because we're looking for what is wrong with them. Coin grading is so subjective, and opinions so strong, that we often times lose focus on the hobby.
...on second thought, I'd say we're a society of misfits. I'm involved, not devolved. My daughters weren't into dolls that I knew of but my granddaughter did ask me for a "Dora the Explorer" coin some time ago.
<< <i>We are each uniquely different and beautiful in our own way. It's just that so many people can't see other's beauty because we're looking for what is wrong with them. Coin grading is so subjective, and opinions so strong, that we often times lose focus on the hobby. >>
Nice sentiment, but what does this have to do with the price of American Girl Dolls during the Christmas season?
The flippers are doing me a favor. Instead of wasting $100 on a doll, I keep my money. Instead of wasting $200 (or whatever) on Justin Bieber tickets, I keep my money. Etc.
<< <i>There's no such thing as price gouging in a free market. >>
I agree 100%. What is wrong with letting the market place set the price? As an ebay seller, there is nothing I can do to force someone to buy anything. I don't even know the people and have no way to get them to press "buy now".
(You know who makes the most from Chinese goods? They middle men and importers. And all they do is buy the goods and have them shipped from one place to another. So, they dont do anything except filp goods from one market to another. The factory owners and end sellers get only a few % and the middlemed make 100's%.)
Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc..
<< <i> Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc.. >>
Yup, you are either a true blooded capitalist or a godless commie. There is no in between, even a little kid knows that. As Bush the second famously said, "I don't do nuance."
We told my daughter that she would not be getting Kanani, and she said that it is okay because she no longer wanted her. Not only that, none of her friends are getting her and instead want a different doll (whose name I will not disclose for I do not want to juice the market until I can buy a couple dozen ).
<< <i>There's no such thing as price gouging in a free market. >>
I agree 100%. What is wrong with letting the market place set the price? As an ebay seller, there is nothing I can do to force someone to buy anything. I don't even know the people and have no way to get them to press "buy now".
(You know who makes the most from Chinese goods? They middle men and importers. And all they do is buy the goods and have them shipped from one place to another. So, they dont do anything except filp goods from one market to another. The factory owners and end sellers get only a few % and the middlemed make 100's%.)
Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc.. >>
I think there is a big difference between importing millions of dollars worth of goods that are produced in unlimited quantity to be sold to hundreds of thousands of people so that each of those individuals does not have to make individual arrangements for their iPod to be secured in China, book passage to the US, have the package met by an individual on the west coast, and then have the item shipped to them AND someone who has no relationship with the seller consciously buying up all of the dolls from the seller to prevent someone else from buying the doll from the seller with the expressed purpose of profiting from the secondary market sale at a profit.
But that's just me. At any rate, so long as it is an item or service that is not a necessity (like food or gas), I can choose to not participate.
The flippers are doing me a favor. Instead of wasting $100 on a doll, I keep my money. Instead of wasting $200 (or whatever) on Justin Bieber tickets, I keep my money. Etc. >>
I know that was sarcasm but you're actually making a good point about free markets. The speculators did weed out those who were unwilling to pay market price for the doll, and they did do those people a "favor" because in a free market, you can decide how to spend your $200 and will buy something that's worth $200 to YOU, making both the seller of that product and you happy. The free market at it's finest.
Same thing happens with Scotty Cameron putters/accessoriies and Bob Vokey wedges. I have been able to find the Vokey and Cameron items for my son at "reasonable" prices but the American Girl doll phenomenon is one I can't swallow. My daughter has several knock off AGDs but her friends have pointed out to her they are "fake". She picked out the (real) Emily doll for over $100 and put it on her Christmas list. I went to the website and noticed the shipping is $15 and with tax it is pushing $150. The clothes for this doll literally cost more than clothes for my daughter. Demand is apparently being fueled by fashion conscious socialite 8 yr olds. I was at the "pay now" button when I said "No, I'm not gonna do it" and closed the window. Emily is apparently not as popular as Kanani so there are some on ebay (probably flippers who realized emily wasn't going to go white hot nuclear). I bid on one but got outbid. AGD has officially moved from the Christmas list to the Birthday list (Feb 14). Money isn't really an object for me. I can afford as many $150 dolls as I want to buy for my daughter. But I grew up poor and retained my respect for money (which many of the people buying these dolls never had). I feel bad for the poor parents trying hard to save up for the AGD that their daughter wants more than anything else in the world so that she can fit in with the other kids, some of which are richer and some of which have parents eating bologna sandwiches to try to afford an AGD for their daughter. Frankly, I'd rather buy an AGD for one of these parents to give their daughter than for my daughter. In the mean time, I am going to at least temporarily boycott the craze.
--Jerry
Great post Jerry. I had to bite my lip when my son told me he was paying $300 for a fancy "laser pen" with his holiday money. He never really buys anything for himself so what could I say. But, I would have just as soon bought him (2) of these dolls ... it would have made more sense to me!! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Am i the only one who thinks it is ironic that many here think nothing about spending hundreds or thousands more for a coin they just have to have and then rant about a young girl wanting a doll she just has to have for a couple hundred bucks? I find it funny. Comic gold even.
<< <i>Am i the only one who thinks it is ironic that many here think nothing about spending hundreds or thousands more for a coin they just have to have and then rant about a young girl wanting a doll she just has to have for a couple hundred bucks? I find it funny. Comic gold even. >>
Well coins are an investment and the dolls are not, Errrr At least that is what I tell myself lol
There is literally no store in this wealthy county that you could go to and make money by flipping, than a coin store, with the possible exception of "Good Will" or other place where people donate goods leaving value on the table.
My daughter, now 13, has drifted away from American Girl dolls, and I would give anything, including the upcharge for the Kanani doll, to see her as that little girl again.
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
While we have a large number of people that do that, I don't know that it's a particularly new phenomenon. The internet has just made it easier to see. >>
I think you're right. Some of the most wealthy and powerfully people in history were nothing more than flippers, i.e. John Jacob Astor, the first multi-millionaire in the U.S., who made his fortune simply by buying and selling fur.
"Man will never be perfect until he learns to create and destroy; he does know how to destroy, and that is half the battle.” - Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo
so when someone spends their money on something, speculating that a buck can be made, they are considered a parasite ? what do you call all the people living on welfare ??
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>so when someone spends their money on something, speculating that a buck can be made, they are considered a parasite ? what do you call all the people living on welfare ?? >>
Comments
<< <i>You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed.
Markets are manipulated all of the time, and this is but another example. Purely speculation, but for every doll that gets sold for $200, I would be willing to bet that there is one that ends up in an unopened box collecting dust in someone's basement and gets thrown out years down the road. >>
I agree, markets can be manipulated, but that's the sort of stuff that happens when people propagate false information, or use insider trading knowledge. Speculation isn't the same as manipulation.
As long as people engage in willing transactions, with transparent knowledge, that's the free market working as designed.
I also agree the market may change and some people may be stuck with them, but so what, that's still the free market working as a check and balance on speculators.
<< <i>
<< <i>You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed.
Markets are manipulated all of the time, and this is but another example. Purely speculation, but for every doll that gets sold for $200, I would be willing to bet that there is one that ends up in an unopened box collecting dust in someone's basement and gets thrown out years down the road. >>
I agree, markets can be manipulated, but that's the sort of stuff that happens when people propagate false information, or use insider trading knowledge. Speculation isn't the same as manipulation.
As long as people engage in willing transactions, with transparent knowledge, that's the free market working as designed.
I also agree the market may change and some people may be stuck with them, but so what, that's still the free market working as a check and balance on speculators. >>
The way I see it, if hundreds of people are each taking dozens of dolls off the market and putting them in their basements and offering a doll or two at a time, the market has been manipulated, in the same way that the Arab countries manipulate the price of oil for their pleasure. There is no transparency to the market if the buyer does not know how many thousand are sitting in basements for eventual sale, nor does the buyer know how many dolls have been made. Additionally, though I do not follow the market for the dolls too closely, but what stops the manufacturer from releasing another 10,000 dolls next week?
The speculator offers no service and adds no value to the transaction. When the item is something like automobile fuel, one that I cannot do without, I do what I can to reduce consumption (minimize trips, drive a hybrid car, etc.). When the item is a doll, which many (maybe, most) would consider already an extravagant purchase at $100, I can very easily walk away.
I think Lemmings and Keeping up with the Jones ranks ahead of Flippers
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>The speculator offers no service and adds no value to the transaction. >>
They do to the people who don't want to sit at their computer refreshing the screen for hours at a time or get up at 2AM to wait in line in order to have an opportunity to buy some limited availability item.
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
I have been connected in one way or another to Ticket Resales since the age of about 8.
(a very long time) and have alot of friends who own and operate multi-million dollar resale
sites. Your comparrison really does not suffice as "putting out ones savings/credit" towards
PM's or anything coin related for that matter, vrs securing and reselling of tickets to concerts,
sporting or anything of that nature.
big, very big difference.
one has always been a way of life for alot of very successful friends of mine.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
is allowing savvy people who anticipated that spike to profit.
EDIT: It's technically impossible to manipulate the free market of a non-essential commodity.
I knew it would happen.
Two people settle on a price for something...whatever it is, and the rest of us ask if this is fair, wrong, or indicative of a decadent society.
I don't get it. Two parties are happy with the deal, however outrageous it might seem. What's wrong with that?
Lance.
<< <i>For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store. >>
I dare you to do it!!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Shortly after the twin towers were hit, some of the gasoline stations around here jacked the price up when the saw the lines form. I don't know how the cases turned out, but the Attorney General did go after them for price gouging. Same thing happens with generators every winter, the price goes up when the desperation sets in.. later, gouging claims are made, reputations are tarnished. Fine line between the two. In a truly free market, gouging ought to be considered normal behavior as well, I guess.
<< <i>I don't know how the cases turned out, but the Attorney General did go after them for price gouging. >>
Probably a good idea. I'm sure the Attorney General knows what the right price for gas should be.
<< <i>Gougers after a disaster should be fined, the low lifes. >>
Absolutely! People should be punsished for going out of the way to make supplies of those items available after a disaster.
When money gets tight like it is now for most Americans, people will find clever ways to try to make a few extra dollars through the minimum amount of effort possible. They hear stories of how someone buys something and immediately sells it for triple their cost. They can't help but think if they don't jump onto that bandwagon they're leaving money on the table.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
We could have tripled our cost of the tickets but felt better giving them to our friends and family.
Now when it comes to coins, that is another story. I try not to give anything away for free. Even to friends and family.
Exceptions are when sample slabs are given to me for free to give to other coin collectors as an example.
RYK, your posting here is just the modern day equivalent of a collector writing a letter to The Numismatist in the 1930's during the Commemorative Craze complaining about dealers buying up the majority of new releases (e. g.: Guttag Brothers and the Hudson Half Dollar) and then trying to sell them for a huge markup.
So, to those who say we're a new society, sorry, but the technology may have changed but human nature has not.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Now ust about anyone can sell at or near market prices.
...on second thought, I'd say we're a society of misfits.
I'm involved, not devolved. My daughters weren't into dolls that I knew of but my granddaughter did ask me for a "Dora the Explorer" coin some time ago.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>We are each uniquely different and beautiful in our own way. It's just that so many people can't see other's beauty because we're looking for what is wrong with them. Coin grading is so subjective, and opinions so strong, that we often times lose focus on the hobby. >>
Nice sentiment, but what does this have to do with the price of American Girl Dolls during the Christmas season?
But its the thought that counts
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The flippers are doing me a favor. Instead of wasting $100 on a doll, I keep my money. Instead of wasting $200 (or whatever) on Justin Bieber tickets, I keep my money. Etc.
<< <i>There's no such thing as price gouging in a free market. >>
I agree 100%. What is wrong with letting the market place set the price?
As an ebay seller, there is nothing I can do to force someone to buy anything.
I don't even know the people and have no way to get them to press "buy now".
(You know who makes the most from Chinese goods? They middle men and importers.
And all they do is buy the goods and have them shipped from one place to another.
So, they dont do anything except filp goods from one market to another.
The factory owners and end sellers get only a few % and the middlemed make 100's%.)
Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and
maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc..
<< <i>
Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and
maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc..
Yup, you are either a true blooded capitalist or a godless commie. There is no in between, even a little kid knows that. As Bush the second famously said, "I don't do nuance."
We told my daughter that she would not be getting Kanani, and she said that it is okay because she no longer wanted her. Not only that, none of her friends are getting her and instead want a different doll (whose name I will not disclose for I do not want to juice the market until I can buy a couple dozen
<< <i>
<< <i>There's no such thing as price gouging in a free market. >>
I agree 100%. What is wrong with letting the market place set the price?
As an ebay seller, there is nothing I can do to force someone to buy anything.
I don't even know the people and have no way to get them to press "buy now".
(You know who makes the most from Chinese goods? They middle men and importers.
And all they do is buy the goods and have them shipped from one place to another.
So, they dont do anything except filp goods from one market to another.
The factory owners and end sellers get only a few % and the middlemed make 100's%.)
Sounds like some posters here have some kind of problem with capitalism, and
maybe they would be allot happier living in cuba, north korea, burma etc..
I think there is a big difference between importing millions of dollars worth of goods that are produced in unlimited quantity to be sold to hundreds of thousands of people so that each of those individuals does not have to make individual arrangements for their iPod to be secured in China, book passage to the US, have the package met by an individual on the west coast, and then have the item shipped to them AND someone who has no relationship with the seller consciously buying up all of the dolls from the seller to prevent someone else from buying the doll from the seller with the expressed purpose of profiting from the secondary market sale at a profit.
But that's just me. At any rate, so long as it is an item or service that is not a necessity (like food or gas), I can choose to not participate.
<< <i>I have changed my viewpoint on this issue.
The flippers are doing me a favor. Instead of wasting $100 on a doll, I keep my money. Instead of wasting $200 (or whatever) on Justin Bieber tickets, I keep my money. Etc. >>
I know that was sarcasm but you're actually making a good point about free markets. The speculators did weed out those who were unwilling to pay market price for the doll, and they did do those people a "favor" because in a free market, you can decide how to spend your $200 and will buy something that's worth $200 to YOU, making both the seller of that product and you happy. The free market at it's finest.
--Jerry
Great post Jerry. I had to bite my lip when my son told me he was paying $300 for a fancy "laser pen" with his holiday money. He never really buys anything for himself so what could I say. But, I would have just as soon bought him (2) of these dolls ... it would have made more sense to me!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yes, just like Wall Street. >>
Think there is a little bit more Wall Street does.
<< <i>Am i the only one who thinks it is ironic that many here think nothing about spending hundreds or thousands more for a coin they just have to have and then rant about a young girl wanting a doll she just has to have for a couple hundred bucks? I find it funny. Comic gold even. >>
Well coins are an investment and the dolls are not, Errrr At least that is what I tell myself lol
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
You did that on porpoise!
<< <i>
<< <i>
You did that on porpoise! >>
It did strike me as being a little fishy.
My daughter, now 13, has drifted away from American Girl dolls, and I would give anything, including the upcharge for the Kanani doll, to see her as that little girl again.
<< <i>
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
While we have a large number of people that do that, I don't know that it's a particularly new phenomenon. The internet has just made it easier to see. >>
I think you're right. Some of the most wealthy and powerfully people in history were nothing more than flippers, i.e. John Jacob Astor, the first multi-millionaire in the U.S., who made his fortune simply by buying and selling fur.
- Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo
SOLVE ET COAGULA
<< <i>so when someone spends their money on something, speculating that a buck can be made, they are considered a parasite ? what do you call all the people living on welfare ?? >>
Government employees.