Are we a society of flippers?
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
The 25th Anniversary set experience is not unlike other "limited edition" issues in other venues.
I think about my recent experience with Furthur tickets in which the best seats were sold out immediately and were available almost instantly on StubHub for two or three times face value. This has been going on in the music concert and sports ticket area for years.
This morning, my wife gave me instructions to order the American Girl doll, Kanani ("Girl of the Year 2011"), for my daughter. I went to the website, and, of course, they were sold out. I thought I would check on ebay to see if perhaps one or two were made available when people overbought (grandma and mom both bought a doll for little Kallie, not knowing that each had purchased one or whatever) and much to my surprise, there were hundreds available, most at about double the issue price. All of the sold out outfits were also available, for between 50-100% over the list price. Some combination packs were selling for $1000 or more.
Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process?
I think about my recent experience with Furthur tickets in which the best seats were sold out immediately and were available almost instantly on StubHub for two or three times face value. This has been going on in the music concert and sports ticket area for years.
This morning, my wife gave me instructions to order the American Girl doll, Kanani ("Girl of the Year 2011"), for my daughter. I went to the website, and, of course, they were sold out. I thought I would check on ebay to see if perhaps one or two were made available when people overbought (grandma and mom both bought a doll for little Kallie, not knowing that each had purchased one or whatever) and much to my surprise, there were hundreds available, most at about double the issue price. All of the sold out outfits were also available, for between 50-100% over the list price. Some combination packs were selling for $1000 or more.
Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process?
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Comments
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
Yes, just like Wall Street.
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
While we have a large number of people that do that, I don't know that it's a particularly new phenomenon. The internet has just made it easier to see.
I would also much rather have our society have large numbers of people making money that way, where the free market determines the added value of their process, than devolve into one where large numbers of people truly did nothing and still expected to be compensated for it. At least flippers, regardless of their field, are industrious.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
.......so, the answer to your question is 'yes'
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>The 25th Anniversary set experience is not unlike other "limited edition" issues in other venues.
I think about my recent experience with Furthur tickets in which the best seats were sold out immediately and were available almost instantly on StubHub for two or three times face value. This has been going on in the music concert and sports ticket area for years.
This morning, my wife gave me instructions to order the American Girl doll, Kanani ("Girl of the Year 2011"), for my daughter. I went to the website, and, of course, they were sold out. I thought I would check on ebay to see if perhaps one or two were made available when people overbought (grandma and mom both bought a doll for little Kallie, not knowing that each had purchased one or whatever) and much to my surprise, there were hundreds available, most at about double the issue price. All of the sold out outfits were also available, for between 50-100% over the list price. Some combination packs were selling for $1000 or more.
Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
No ... greed has been around for a few years.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Yes, and it is nauseating.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Think tulips. Same thing.
edited to add : Let me rephrase that since two question were asked. Are we a society of flippers? Yes, always have been. Have we devolved? No, it's always been there.
Trade has always been a part of civilization along with profit and greed.
For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
Now they stand overnight in line to buy Ipad or Iphone and resell them the people who does not want to do it
Or spend a few hours clicking buttons at US Mint website and resell it to the people who were either lazy or unable to do it
It's all the same
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process?
Yes, and it is nauseating. >>
Why? Limited supply with more than one person wanting it. Sounds a lot like what Heritage does...
--Jerry
<< <i>Same thing happens with Scotty Cameron putters/accessoriies and Bob Vokey wedges. I have been able to find the Vokey and Cameron items for my son at "reasonable" prices but the American Girl doll phenomenon is one I can't swallow. My daughter has several knock off AGDs but her friends have pointed out to her they are "fake". She picked out the (real) Emily doll for over $100 and put it on her Christmas list. I went to the website and noticed the shipping is $15 and with tax it is pushing $150. The clothes for this doll literally cost more than clothes for my daughter. Demand is apparently being fueled by fashion conscious socialite 8 yr olds. I was at the "pay now" button when I said "No, I'm not gonna do it" and closed the window. Emily is apparently not as popular as Kanani so there are some on ebay (probably flippers who realized emily wasn't going to go white hot nuclear). I bid on one but got outbid. AGD has officially moved from the Christmas list to the Birthday list (Feb 14). Money isn't really an object for me. I can afford as many $150 dolls as I want to buy for my daughter. But I grew up poor and retained my respect for money (which many of the people buying these dolls never had). I feel bad for the poor parents trying hard to save up for the AGD that their daughter wants more than anything else in the world so that she can fit in with the other kids, some of which are richer and some of which have parents eating bologna sandwiches to try to afford an AGD for their daughter. Frankly, I'd rather buy an AGD for one of these parents to give their daughter than for my daughter. In the mean time, I am going to at least temporarily boycott the craze.
--Jerry >>
I am with you. I can afford to pay $200 for a $100 doll, but instead, I will allow her to choose another doll (she already has 4, BTW) and put the $100 in her savings account.
Why? Limited supply with more than one person wanting it. Sounds a lot like what Heritage does...
Completely different.
<< <i>The 25th Anniversary set experience is not unlike other "limited edition" issues in other venues.
I think about my recent experience with Furthur tickets in which the best seats were sold out immediately and were available almost instantly on StubHub for two or three times face value. This has been going on in the music concert and sports ticket area for years.
This morning, my wife gave me instructions to order the American Girl doll, Kanani ("Girl of the Year 2011"), for my daughter. I went to the website, and, of course, they were sold out. I thought I would check on ebay to see if perhaps one or two were made available when people overbought (grandma and mom both bought a doll for little Kallie, not knowing that each had purchased one or whatever) and much to my surprise, there were hundreds available, most at about double the issue price. All of the sold out outfits were also available, for between 50-100% over the list price. Some combination packs were selling for $1000 or more.
Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
Sounds like a car dealership; all they add to the price is cost.
If you find the right price, coins will retain their value. It is yet to be seen what the stable value for the 25th anniv set is but right now I think they are cheap.
Dolls, tickets, (and tulips) will all eventually have a value of 0.
--Jerry
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store.
<< <i>Have we devolved into a society in which we have large numbers of people who do nothing but make retail purchases of limited edition products and mark up the price for a living, adding no real value to the process? >>
No.
<< <i>While we have a large number of people that do that, I don't know that it's a particularly new phenomenon. The internet has just made it easier to see. >>
Perfect Answer.
Retailers typically markup merchandise 100% to 200%. Sometimes 300% and higher depending upon clientel. Clothing retailers have the largest markups and it's always been that way. The internet has simply enabled some of us small timers to play.
The name is LEE!
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I think that more than ever people, who may be displaced from traditional jobs, are augmenting their income through 'parasitic' means (think: Storage Wars)
.......so, the answer to your question is 'yes' >>
So would the U. S. Mint have been "parasitic" or "gouging" if they had sold the 25th anniv ASE sets for the $900 that apparently many were willing to pay?
Personally, I refuse to participate in scalping, and will play the role of neither opportunist nor victim.
I realize I will probably never own one of those "hot" coin sets, dolls, or good event seats, unless I obtain them the regular way. There are too many alternatives.
I do make a distinction between an "aftermarket" in which values change, but the supply is obtained fairly,
and small groups who buy up the initial supply of something in order to corner the market and drive prices higher in order to unfairly profit
"you're missing out!" I've heard before.
so be it
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Are we a society of flippers? >>
Your right..RYK...You can call them another name.."Scalpers"..!!! ..Yes that's what I said.These are folks who buy a large volume of ..whatever..and force a sellout.If I'm not mistaken ..I believe that's illegal..So call them what you want ..they sure make it difficult for some..
<< <i>For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store. >>
The added value seems to come by way of "opportunity cost." You did not have the opportunity to purchase the doll at during the time given, the other people did. This means they were more educated in the matter, set aside time and resources, and took a risk that the items would be worth procuring for future gain. I would like to agree with you that anyone could do it, but based on the evidence I must disagree...sure you might get lucky occasionally, but making the right call about what limited edition items are going to be popular isn't always cut and dry. There are many, many such items that make their way to dime store shelves.
I don't care for the system, but there is obviously some value added...it just isn't an intrinsic value, it's an added value based on demand.
FYI I do not partake in such activities, I frankly detest it. I feel somewhat similar about ASE sets. The reason they are worth so much is because everyone bought more than they wanted, so those who actually wanted them would have to pay on the secondary market. I believe you were actually a part of that activity, so you should be slow to pass judgement. I'm not trying to be rude, just saying...he without sin cast the first stone. I would imagine those flippers are just people trying to put a few bucks in their pocket for the Christmas season...can you blame them? Especially when you consider that half of the US is living at or below poverty levels?
<< <i>It is the basis on which ebay's business model is founded. >>
It might be better said it's what ebays business model has become , not as it was founded. I still remember ebays entry to the web , it was almost all 2nd hand goods , much like a yard sale.The catchphrase they had then was along the lines of clear out your attic and cash in. In later years it has indeed become as you describe and for the most part very boring.
WS
<< <i>For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store. >>
OK, how about the grocer who buys tomatoes from the local farmer at 50 cents a pound in bulk and sells them at $2.99 an pound?
My personal view of flippers is that they are merely the unseen hand of the supply/demand marketplace at work.
1980's - Cabbage Patch Kids
1990's - Tickle me Elmo, Beenie Babies
Been around probably even longer than that...
<< <i>Maybe a better question is are we a society willing to put premiums on non valuable things and still over pay for them??? I think they call it "marketing" . In the mean time the marketers have put you in a tenuous situation with your wife until you find that doll and if you do not, you will have hell to pay Christmas morning from both your wife and daughter. Let us know if you succeed so we can rest here knowing one of our best forum members will be around after the holidays
WS >>
I have already told my wife that the store is sold out, and that is the end of the story. My daughter will get over it. I thought that owning a fifth AG doll was ridiculous anyway, but she likes them, they are harmless, and some of the stories and lessons that come with the dolls and their books are quite useful.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>For ages people would sail the seas to buy silk, tea, coffee and bring home to sell for for profit
In this example, a service was provided by the shipper and the merchant, since the average person in Boston could not make his own silk, tea, and coffee from the resources available to him.
I am just as able as the next guy to click on "add to cart" at the American Girl doll online store. >>
The added value seems to come by way of "opportunity cost." You did not have the opportunity to purchase the doll at during the time given, the other people did. This means they were more educated in the matter, set aside time and resources, and took a risk that the items would be worth procuring for future gain. I would like to agree with you that anyone could do it, but based on the evidence I must disagree...sure you might get lucky occasionally, but making the right call about what limited edition items are going to be popular isn't always cut and dry. There are many, many such items that make their way to dime store shelves.
I don't care for the system, but there is obviously some value added...it just isn't an intrinsic value, it's an added value based on demand.
FYI I do not partake in such activities, I frankly detest it. I feel somewhat similar about ASE sets. The reason they are worth so much is because everyone bought more than they wanted, so those who actually wanted them would have to pay on the secondary market. I believe you were actually a part of that activity, so you should be slow to pass judgement. I'm not trying to be rude, just saying...he without sin cast the first stone. I would imagine those flippers are just people trying to put a few bucks in their pocket for the Christmas season...can you blame them? Especially when you consider that half of the US is living at or below poverty levels? >>
Based on the difficulty in accessing the Mint's order page, it would seem that a lot of profit seekers had the 25th anniv. issue pegged. It will only get worse.
Personally, I don't play the game.
So far as the "American Girl" stuff goes ... several years ago my brother asked me very specifically not to buy any "American Girl" toys for my niece. He didn't want her to get interested in them. I didn't and she didn't. Good decision.
Same thing innit ?
I don't mind seeing people throw money at large corporations , i don't even have a cell phone and never will but different strokes...
<< <i>More than a society of flippers, we are a society of sheep. So and so has something cool so everyone wants it to keep up with the Jones'. I have my iPhone, and I like it and can afford it, but will readily admit it is overpriced. But it really drives me crazy to see someone in the grocery store paying with food stamps talking on their iPhone. Apple knows that people will overpay for an iPhone so capitalism takes over. This is no different in the coin market or American Girl Doll market or the sports/entertainment market. I have an Uncle Pete who says every Thanksgiving, "There's two kinds of people - the quick and the hungry." Maybe now its the quick and the ones with emptier wallets. >>
This. I make a point of avoiding these kind of activities. I grew up in a household where money was scarce and we didn't have the funds for this sort of thing. I am the first born of three, and my parents waited four years after getting married to have me, their first child, because they simply did not believe they could afford to have and raise children until that time.
Although I can afford many of these items, I never get involved in doing so. I think things through and make my decisions on my own. I have learned over the years that there are plenty of opportunities available to those who do not follow the crowds. In fact, when it comes to investing, many of the great "investment gurus," like Baron Rothschild, have said as much, although in more flowing terms, like "buy when there's blood in the streets, even if the blood is your own." He practiced what he preached.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Box of 20
stock flippers
house flippers
wife flippers
collectible flippers
hamburger flippers
Eric.
I remember when the 8-8-08 sets came out and nobody was really buying them, I mean both coins at that time were still available from the mint, the 1/2 gold eagle and 1/2 gold buffalo and everyone was complaining that you were basically paying a premium for a very pretty package, which you were. I kept looking at the sales every week and they were still not selling so I bought 5 sets thinking if nothing else it may be a rare set someday. About a week later the mint stopped selling the 1/2 oz gold buffalo and the only way to get one was in this set. a week later or so it seemed the mint stopped selling the 8-8-08 set as well and I just bought 5 sets! It was like hitting the lottery! Today I can sell that set for double what I paid for it but I've never sold any of them. I'm having to much fun watching to see what people will pay for the 2008 1/2 gold buffalo! So I guess I don't consider myself a flipper but it sure can be hard to turn that fast cash down sometimes!
Chuck.
Ever Onward
The doll you mentioned was never a $100 doll, and NO ONE would have ever been able to buy it for $100 in a free market. The vendor just failed to price it correctly according to the market and someone else with superior marketing knowledge DID price it correctly.
What you're really advocating is an interference in the free market where you get to buy things at prices you want to pay, without regard for free market supply and demand. Again, a premise I reject.
<< <i>I think your premise is wrong. Don't blame "flippers". They are working within the free market as designed, and that's a good thing. The real problem is that the vendor (the Mint, the doll maker, etc.) failed to adequately understand the market for their product. They either made too few, or priced the ones they did make too low. The "flipper" used their superior knowledge of the market to profit from it where the vendor failed to do so.
The doll you mentioned was never a $100 doll, and NO ONE would have ever been able to buy it for $100 in a free market. The vendor just failed to price it correctly according to the market and someone else with superior marketing knowledge DID price it correctly.
What you're really advocating is an interference in the free market where you get to buy things at prices you want to pay, without regard for free market supply and demand. Again, a premise I reject. >>
I understand your argument and disagree with it. The company was willing to sell me a doll for $100, and I was not aware that it was available. It was not available because others bought them up and manipulated the market for them. Some dolls will end up getting sold for a profit, some potential buyers lose interest in the doll and move on to something else (like we did), and some end up losing money on the dolls. I will follow the market, but my gut tells me that the early flippers make money on the dolls, and as Xmas approaches, they will be dumping the doll. On January 2, the market for the doll is much smaller than it is today.
American Girl is an extremely well-run business, and they know how to extract every possible dollar from the customer base.
BTW, a forum member has PMed me and offered to sell me a doll. His wife is one of the speculators, and she owns about a dozen. I thanked him and declined.
profit. This is most easily seen in things like collectibles or theater tickets but it really applies
to everything from land to stocks and bonds. Look at the Beanie Baby market. These weren't
children or toddlers who were the ultimate market for the dolls but grown men and women who
were otherwise "normal". Everyone knew there was no market except as a collectible and still
it grew and grew. The same thing really applied to low grade gem Morgan dollars back in the late-
80's. These weren't being bought by collectors. They had sat in vaults for many decades and were
available in large quantities so people imagined that collector demand would eventually push the
price of even the most common date gem like an '80-S to hundreds of dollars. So this is exactly
what happened until reality caught up with all those investors. There were simply too many for
the number of actual collectors and then it didn't help that many firms were overgrading and sell-
ing inferior product which made the supply appear even greater than it actually was and saddling
their buyers with massive losses as they suffered both the market decline and real world grading.
There's nothing you can buy that doesn't involve speculation in the minds of at least some of the
buyers. Some will be motivated purely by greed or profit and some only partially. Everything of
value is owned by somebody.
The way to profit is finding things that nobody considers of value. How about all those fancy tags
they put on fruit and bread products now days? How about all that junk aluminum they send in
the mail over the past forty years to entice you to buy everything from magazine subscriptions to
soap products. Or you can just do the work to outguess Morgan Stanley and pick the next winning
stock or do the work to buy tickets you don't want to sell to people who do. You can jump on every
pyramid scheme that comes along and buy lottery tickets and can win.
In the old days before 1980 many people tried to create wealth buy selling a product where both
parties were able to profit in the exchange but wealth creation has gone out of style because of
government regulation and the greater value in golden parachutes. The Chinese sell us the poison
to kill ourselves while the ultimate consumer in most all arenas is dying.
Choose your poison. Now days even bonds are risky and most Americans are in debt and live pay-
check to paycheck. Coin collecting is a sort of throwback to another age.
<< <i>
I understand your argument and disagree with it. The company was willing to sell me a doll for $100, and I was not aware that it was available. It was not available because others bought them up and manipulated the market for them. Some dolls will end up getting sold for a profit, some potential buyers lose interest in the doll and move on to something else (like we did), and some end up losing money on the dolls. I will follow the market, but my gut tells me that the early flippers make money on the dolls, and as Xmas approaches, they will be dumping the doll. On January 2, the market for the doll is much smaller than it is today. >>
The company was willing to sell anyone a doll for $100. No one manipulated the market. People who knew the true value of the doll, which wasn't $100, bought them and are selling them at market prices, and maybe after Jan 1st, the market price will change.
Let me restate, the market price for the doll isn't $100. If it was, they would still be available from the vendor. So, since the vendor left $100 of market value on the table, someone else will end up with it. What you're saying is, that you think it should have been you. You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed.
<< <i>American Girl is an extremely well-run business, and they know how to extract every possible dollar from the customer base. >>
In this case, they didn't.
<< <i>American Girl is an extremely well-run business, and they know how to extract every possible dollar from the customer base. >>
Oh yeah ... my daughter was an American Girl fan. The family "girls" went on a trip to Chicago for an American Girl weekend!
I visited the American Girl store in New York to pick up a gift for my daughter. Pure chaos. Giddy girls everywhere ... then some "old guy" (me!). I bet it looked a little creepy out of context ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
-Keith
Markets are manipulated all of the time, and this is but another example. Purely speculation, but for every doll that gets sold for $200, I would be willing to bet that there is one that ends up in an unopened box collecting dust in someone's basement and gets thrown out years down the road.
<< <i>The company was willing to sell anyone a doll for $100. No one manipulated the market. People who knew the true value of the doll, which wasn't $100, bought them and are selling them at market prices, and maybe after Jan 1st, the market price will change.
Let me restate, the market price for the doll isn't $100. If it was, they would still be available from the vendor. So, since the vendor left $100 of market value on the table, someone else will end up with it. What you're saying is, that you think it should have been you. You want a $200 doll for $100, but you begrudge someone else if they take the $100 the vendor left on the table. Someone's going to take it, either the vendor, the middleman, or the consumer. Let the free market work as designed. >>
This is exactly right. Well said GoldClause!