Please define First Strike ? .. 100K (or so) Silver Eagles

GAB · December 10, 2011 6:42AM

What is the "accepted" number of coins considered First Strike, and what typically differentiates them from the later strike coins?
Does the mint use enough die pairs to keep all the coins crisp for all 100k coins, or do(can) they make them all from 1 die pair?

ricko · December 10, 2011 7:10AM

First strike is currently determined by date of shipment. There is no way to determine mint first strikes. Additionally, if more than one die set is used, there could be other first strikes.... First strike is simply a marketing term and is meaningless in reality, although it carries enough hype with neophytes to command a premium. Cheers, RickO

silverman68 · December 10, 2011 7:39AM

A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70?

chipper10 · December 10, 2011 7:47AM

<< A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70? >>

True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

khayse · December 10, 2011 8:12AM

>True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith

TheBigB · December 10, 2011 8:27AM

Back to the OPs question, from the US Mint:

<< Our manufacturing facilities use a die set as long as the quality of resulting coins meets United States Mint standards, and then replace the dies, continually changing sets throughout the production process. For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. To put this in context, in 2005 the United States Mint produced approximately 356,500 one-ounce gold, 8,891,000 silver, and 6,300 one-ounce platinum American Eagle Bullion Coins. >>

magikbilly · December 10, 2011 8:27AM

Embarrassing.

Eric

Coinsponge · December 10, 2011 8:32AM

It is probably possible that in a lower mintage production coin that the very last coin struck could get a first strike label. That would be ironic but no one would ever know.

chipper10 · December 10, 2011 8:45AM

<< >True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith >>

Yes I am. I would also be willing to bet it holds true on this issue as well.

Gemineye · December 10, 2011 10:18AM

<< Please define First Strike ? .. 100K (or so) Silver Eagles >>

..Please read the ....the "Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins"...

ozees · December 10, 2011 10:23AM

Wink,,, Wink,,,

GAB · December 10, 2011 10:25AM

<< 

<< >True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith >>

Yes I am. I would also be willing to bet it holds true on this issue as well. >>

With all due respect, I hope this premise is not true, as it would imply some sort of grading
criteria other than the QUALITY of the coin. Labeling FS for marketing reasons is one thing, but grading
on the basis of ship date would be absolutely wrong, since so may different die pairings were used. Based on
1000 coins per die, then 100 pairs would have been used - so technically the number of true first strikes would be 100.
These coins might grade the highest, but it should have nothing to do when the coin was made, or when it was shipped.

PipestonePete · December 10, 2011 10:30AM

First Stikes

Gemineye · December 10, 2011 10:35AM

<< First Stikes >>

That says First Day of Production and First Day of Issue....please read my previous post.........!!!!!

TheBigB · December 10, 2011 10:52AM

The mint states that they don't track individual coins after production, in theory they last coin shipped could be the first coin struck.

Don't get hung-up on the "FirstStrike" designation, it is a PCGS product and has nothing to do with US Mint practices.

If they they called the designation "Yum Yum" instead, would everyone feel better?

chipper10 · December 10, 2011 11:21AM

<< 

<< 

<< >True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith >>

Yes I am. I would also be willing to bet it holds true on this issue as well. >>

With all due respect, I hope this premise is not true, as it would imply some sort of grading
criteria other than the QUALITY of the coin. Labeling FS for marketing reasons is one thing, but grading
on the basis of ship date would be absolutely wrong, since so may different die pairings were used. Based on
1000 coins per die, then 100 pairs would have been used - so technically the number of true first strikes would be 100.
These coins might grade the highest, but it should have nothing to do when the coin was made, or when it was shipped. >>

Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation?

Coinsponge · December 10, 2011 11:56AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< >True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith >>

Yes I am. I would also be willing to bet it holds true on this issue as well. >>

With all due respect, I hope this premise is not true, as it would imply some sort of grading
criteria other than the QUALITY of the coin. Labeling FS for marketing reasons is one thing, but grading
on the basis of ship date would be absolutely wrong, since so may different die pairings were used. Based on
1000 coins per die, then 100 pairs would have been used - so technically the number of true first strikes would be 100.
These coins might grade the highest, but it should have nothing to do when the coin was made, or when it was shipped. >>

Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Probably don't want to go there on this site.

FullCameo · December 10, 2011 12:42PM

First Strike should be designated for the first and only strike for that die. But that would take away from the profits. Nevermind, nothing to see here, move along.

chipper10 · December 10, 2011 11:49PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< >True but the population reports indicate that many First Strike labels get higher rates of MS 70's even further perpetuating the marketing myth.

I assume you are speaking generically, since there have only been 2 or 3 days of shipping non-first strike eligible 25 anniversary eagles. The couldn't possibly have graded any to have any meaningful grading data.

-Keith >>

Yes I am. I would also be willing to bet it holds true on this issue as well. >>

With all due respect, I hope this premise is not true, as it would imply some sort of grading
criteria other than the QUALITY of the coin. Labeling FS for marketing reasons is one thing, but grading
on the basis of ship date would be absolutely wrong, since so may different die pairings were used. Based on
1000 coins per die, then 100 pairs would have been used - so technically the number of true first strikes would be 100.
These coins might grade the highest, but it should have nothing to do when the coin was made, or when it was shipped. >>

Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Probably don't want to go there on this site. >>

I forgot, we're only supposed to think happy thoughts.

ricko · December 11, 2011 12:07AM

So much over something that in reality, does not exist - at least it does not exist in the sense that no one, absolutely no one, can tell the first strike... or subsequent first strikes... from new die sets. Every time this comes up, I laugh and sit in utter amazement at the garbage spewed forth about the entire issue... Just keep your collective heads in the sand... Cheers, RickO

TwoSides2aCoin · December 11, 2011 12:20AM

It's a lot easier to define hype.

First Strike is a party for early birds.

OPA · December 11, 2011 12:25AM

The ONLY COIN that the Mint has acknowledged as a "First Strike or First Day of issue," are the coins issued in the American Presidency $1 Coin Cover. To quote the Mint: "Coins from the first day of production."

pf70collector · December 11, 2011 12:30AM

The 5 oz ATB DMPLs are the true first strikes. A 1957 DCAM Franklin Silver Proof or a 1965 SMS DCAM Quarter, I would say is also a First Strike.

19Lyds · December 11, 2011 2:09AM

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect.

LowBudget · December 11, 2011 2:22AM

<< The mint states that they don't track individual coins after production, in theory they last coin shipped could be the first coin struck.

Don't get hung-up on the "FirstStrike" designation, it is a PCGS product and has nothing to do with US Mint practices.

If they they called the designation "Yum Yum" instead, would everyone feel better? >>

LOL would make funny post titles though!!

Gemineye · December 11, 2011 2:25AM

<< 

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect. >>

19Lyds...I have come to the same concusion given the POP Report on the other thread by Goldbully...on page 8

19Lyds · December 11, 2011 2:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect. >>

19Lyds...I have come to the same concusion given the POP Report on the other thread by Goldbully...on page 8 >>

Which conclusion would that be?
Keeping in mind that each of the coins in the 25th Anniversary set were from "special runs" and not taken out of current inventory.

Gemineye · December 11, 2011 4:36AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect. >>

19Lyds...I have come to the same concusion given the POP Report on the other thread by Goldbully...on page 8 >>

Which conclusion would that be?
Keeping in mind that each of the coins in the 25th Anniversary set were from "special runs" and not taken out of current inventory. >>

Given the fact that these are basically all First Released into the public arena...the charts indicate whether you paid for FS or not. the majority of the coins that were not paid came back in a lower grade.

19Lyds · December 11, 2011 4:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect. >>

19Lyds...I have come to the same concusion given the POP Report on the other thread by Goldbully...on page 8 >>

Which conclusion would that be?
Keeping in mind that each of the coins in the 25th Anniversary set were from "special runs" and not taken out of current inventory. >>

Given the fact that these are basically all First Released into the public arena...the charts indicate whether you paid for FS or not. the majority of the coins that were not paid came back in a lower grade. >>

I don't think this is a fair conclusion since, of the 20 that I submitted, only 3 came back as 70's and 3 came back as well deserved 68's. The rest were 69's. I'd certainly have liked all 70's but after examining the coins, fully understood why the majority did not receive that grade.

Before folks go interpreting the pop reports and making unfounded implications, they really should see the coins in hand and also understand that all the coins in the 25th Anniversary Sets were in fact special production runs. I would have expected a much larger ratio of 70's and the only reason folks are seeing 67's and 68's is due to the failures of the packaging combined with some fairly irresponsible shipping (packaged upside down) which allowed some coins to pop out of the airtites.

chipper10 · December 11, 2011 4:57AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Well there must be an explanation as to why First Strike coins generally grade at a higher score than non FS coins. We all know (at least those knowledgeable) that the FS label has absolutely nothing to do with how old the die was when it struck the coin- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. So what is the plausible explanation? >>

Re-Read the population reports friend. I'm sure you'll find that your statement is incorrect. >>

19Lyds...I have come to the same concusion given the POP Report on the other thread by Goldbully...on page 8 >>

Which conclusion would that be?
Keeping in mind that each of the coins in the 25th Anniversary set were from "special runs" and not taken out of current inventory. >>

Given the fact that these are basically all First Released into the public arena...the charts indicate whether you paid for FS or not. the majority of the coins that were not paid came back in a lower grade. >>

I don't think this is a fair conclusion since, of the 20 that I submitted, only 3 came back as 70's and 3 came back as well deserved 68's. The rest were 69's. I'd certainly have liked all 70's but after examining the coins, fully understood why the majority did not receive that grade.

Before folks go interpreting the pop reports and making unfounded implications, they really should see the coins in hand and also understand that all the coins in the 25th Anniversary Sets were in fact special production runs. I would have expected a much larger ratio of 70's and the only reason folks are seeing 67's and 68's is due to the failures of the packaging combined with some fairly irresponsible shipping (packaged upside down) which allowed some coins to pop out of the airtites. >>

With all due respect it is more than just the population reports that have been analyzed by me. I can't speak to what others have analyzed though. I have seen enough to flip flop the grading services I've always viewed as #1 and #2. The only thing left for me to do is examine a fair amount of Mercanti MS 70 sets in person. That day will come soon enough.

leothelyon · December 11, 2011 5:00PM

You know, if they ever get around to grading a full step Jefferson nickel with one of those "First Strike" labels, the coin would have three different FS designations and not one of them would provide information to the collector whether a coin had full details.

Gemineye · December 11, 2011 9:40PM

There is a new publication in the works that the TPGs are putting out ..it's callled .."the Definitions of our Fancy Labels"...!!!!

ambro51 · December 12, 2011 3:41AM

Why not do it truthfully?

call them

FIRST ORDERED

fiveNdime · December 12, 2011 5:11AM

<< Why not do it truthfully?

call them... >>

First Shipped

Yukoncornelius1 · December 12, 2011 5:22AM

<< A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70? >>

The first strike label from PCGS and NGC is a joke. If they could determine the first 50-100 coins minted as first strikes then it would have merit but grading thousands of coins as first strikes makes them irrelevant.
Nobody here could tell any difference between a first strike and non first strike coin if the label were covered up so in effect it is just a way to get collectors to spend more money.

chipper10 · December 12, 2011 5:31AM

<< 

<< A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70? >>

The first strike label from PCGS and NGC is a joke. If they could determine the first 50-100 coins minted as first strikes then it would have merit but grading thousands of coins as first strikes makes them irrelevant.
Nobody here could tell any difference between a first strike and non first strike coin if the label were covered up so in effect it is just a way to get collectors to spend more money. >>

Actually NGC's label is much more accurate. It is "Early Release". It is actually a quite honest label. It's still effectively meaningless with this issue, but accurately named.

Julio · December 12, 2011 6:01AM

"first strike is a preemptive surprise attack employing overwhelming force." Wickipedia.
Just to cover all the bases. Take care. jws

19Lyds · December 12, 2011 6:14AM

<< There is a new publication in the works that the TPGs are putting out ..it's callled .."the Definitions of our Fancy Labels"...!!!! >>

Well there certainly are enough of them.
Kinda adds value to the Collect the Slab and not the Coin Mindset.

19Lyds · December 12, 2011 6:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70? >>

The first strike label from PCGS and NGC is a joke. If they could determine the first 50-100 coins minted as first strikes then it would have merit but grading thousands of coins as first strikes makes them irrelevant.
Nobody here could tell any difference between a first strike and non first strike coin if the label were covered up so in effect it is just a way to get collectors to spend more money. >>

Actually NGC's label is much more accurate. It is "Early Release". It is actually a quite honest label. It's still effectively meaningless with this issue, but accurately named. >>

As for accuracy, how many folks believe that "Early Release" means "Released before the Official Release" or perhaps "Released before the OTHERS were released"?

chipper10 · December 12, 2011 6:28AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< A phrase that collectors fall for but is really just a totally false label to get more money. Tell me how a first strike ms70 coin is different then a non-first strike 70? >>

The first strike label from PCGS and NGC is a joke. If they could determine the first 50-100 coins minted as first strikes then it would have merit but grading thousands of coins as first strikes makes them irrelevant.
Nobody here could tell any difference between a first strike and non first strike coin if the label were covered up so in effect it is just a way to get collectors to spend more money. >>

Actually NGC's label is much more accurate. It is "Early Release". It is actually a quite honest label. It's still effectively meaningless with this issue, but accurately named. >>

As for accuracy, how many folks believe that "Early Release" means "Released before the Official Release" or perhaps "Released before the OTHERS were released"? >>

It's still an accurate description, to qualify coins must be at NGC within 30 days of release or in other words very early. First Strike implies that the coin was struck by the die first or at least very early in it's life-completely misleading.

leothelyon · December 12, 2011 6:41AM

Fact is folks, this label is a product of collectors and flippers who actually have begged for it's existence due to greed and demand. This product is just another perfect example of what gets sent in verses any kind of pattern in most pops in the way of recognition in what's rare to collect for all series. More of a larger percentage over the latter because otherwise, they could not survive. Folks would stop submitting completely if the standards were too strict. Who do you know likes a constant slap of the face. While ignorance plays the greater role in the survival of such tactics, don't bite the hand that's feeding you profit potentials and collecting habits, should I add...
Another way to look at it, because there are many levels of collectors, a grading service grades from a middle ground to satisfy most everyone. Until they have to grade in a stricter sense concerning true low pop rarities and coins that have to do more with strike, condition and eye appeal, the more demanding coins.

Remember when some collective group were called weenies by our host? There's a reason for that. Doesn't mean they agree with it.

renomedphys · December 12, 2011 6:51AM

<< The 5 oz ATB DMPLs are the true first strikes. A 1957 DCAM Franklin Silver Proof or a 1965 SMS DCAM Quarter, I would say is also a First Strike. >>

Or perhaps one of these:

leothelyon · December 12, 2011 6:54AM

I also want to say, whenever you hear me gripe about what gets graded what, it's rarely about the grading service!

Surprise!

Cameonut · December 12, 2011 7:51AM

My mother taught me 50 years ago that if I didn't have anything nice to say, then be quiet.
So I am not saying anything about First Strikes.

ambro51 · December 12, 2011 8:13AM

I had a cameo proof buffalo nickel awhile back, one of only ten noted cameo by pcgs. a true first strike, with the cameo frost wearing quickly from the dies as they struck the hard nickel coin.

leothelyon · December 12, 2011 8:59AM

The following is from the US Mint concerning the label "First Strikes"

Our manufacturing facilities use a die set as long as the quality of resulting coins meets United States Mint standards, and then replace the dies, continually changing sets throughout the production process. For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. To put this in context, in 2005 the United States Mint produced approximately 356,500 one-ounce gold, 8,891,000 silver, and 6,300 one-ounce platinum American Eagle Bullion Coins.

Let's break this down into their perspective numbers of what percent might actually be your first strikes from fresh first used dies. Of course, we must also take note here that the last set of master dies are not going to be as sharp as the first set of master dies that are cut from the master hubs, assuming that there were only one set of master hubs made from the plaster molds. So we probably should eliminate, say, the last 75% of production made from the "not so perfect" master dies.......agreed?

Another problem that should be considered is, whether special attention was given when matching up the first dies made from the plaster molds of the obverse with the first dies from the plastic molds of the reverse???

Since there's no reliable information available to substantiate that a preference was used to matched up the first obverse master dies with the first reverse master dies as they were made, that is if the dies were being simultaneously made at the same time, we will need to eliminate another.....what?.....25% of production?!?

GrumpyEd · December 12, 2011 9:23AM

One more variable might be that most coins sent for FS are submitted in the mint packaging.
Coins sent as regular submissions can be cracked out by the person and put in the flips for shipping or they could have been sitting in dealers flips then sold and put in flips to submit and also may have had longer to develop spots etc...

My point is that if you look at the numbers of any coin in FS vs non FS wouldn't the probability of less handling and less time before submitting give the FS coins a higher probability of making a 70?

Even if people got to hand pick the non FS coins they sent in might not matter because most people can't tell a 69 from a 70, the value of handling the coins less and getting it to the TPG faster outweighs the advantage of the "average collector" pre-screening the non FS coins.

IrishPotato · December 15, 2011 4:17AM

First Strike - FS, sounds pretty sweet, appeals to some but not to others. Chose your poison! Depends on how deep your pockets are.

derryb · December 15, 2011 4:52AM

The facts are: A coin struck six months after initial series release could easily be the first coin struck with a new, replacement set of dies while a coin struck within the first month of issue could easily be the last coin struck with a set of worn dies. Dies get replaced during the production of a series of coins. First Strike has nothing to do with the quality of the strike of the coin and everything to do with how early the coin is submitted for grading.

According to PCGS's Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection the primary elements of a coin's grade are marks, luster, strike, toning and eye appeal. Further discussion of "strike" by PCGS reveals that quality of strike (and not time of strike) is key to a coin's determined grade and is affected by many things, including die wear.

"Struck First" is a very successful marketing strategy that brings great returns with very little additional cost to the TPG that prints it on the label. It also brings additional profit for submitters in the secondary market. It is a win/win for both parties as long as there are buyers who pay extra for the label. In reality the label means nothing more than "Issued Early" during the series' production.

My personal opinion (constructive criticism Don) is that the most reputable grading company in the business does itself and its customers a disservice with the First Strike label by using one of the primary grading elements for wording on a label that is based strictly on time of submission and has nothing to do with quality of strike. l would find it less misleading if it said "First Releases" or if, in the case of a coin having a strike determined to be above average, it said "Best Strike."

Please define First Strike ? .. 100K (or so) Silver Eagles

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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