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How are ICG Graded Coins Treated by Dealers in General?
C0inCollect0r
Posts: 374 ✭✭
Hi folks,
I saw quite a large number of ICG graded coins at a recent show, which got me thinking ...
How exactly are ICG rated coins currently being treated by dealers (and collectors) in the market generally speaking? The service seems to be on the awkward fringe of being considered one of the top services and in some circles seems to be increasingly on the outside looking in.
On the CCE/Coinplex, do ICG graded coins have much interest or no?
Any opinions would be interesting to here.
I saw quite a large number of ICG graded coins at a recent show, which got me thinking ...
How exactly are ICG rated coins currently being treated by dealers (and collectors) in the market generally speaking? The service seems to be on the awkward fringe of being considered one of the top services and in some circles seems to be increasingly on the outside looking in.
On the CCE/Coinplex, do ICG graded coins have much interest or no?
Any opinions would be interesting to here.
0
Comments
ICG graded much better their first couple of years, when they first opened for business.
I rarely see any offered locally.
What is their current market acceptance?
a) the coin matches the grade given by ICG - they are notorious for over-grading MS coins.
b) the price is WAY below trends - in my experience ICG coins are harder to resell than PCGS, NGC and ANACS.
As with any TPG coin, you have to buy the coin, not the slab.
Exceptions to this rule are the early ICG, PCI, Hallmark, and ANACS coins. Those often bring more money than currently graded PCGS/NGC coins since the standards in those early years
were much more stringent. It's hard to go wrong on those early 2nd tier slabs as long as you like the look of the coin. Most of the early holders are gone now, but you still can
find stragglers and old hoards. My eyes light up whenever I run across the old gold foil ANACS holders.
roadrunner
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I never look at them any longer. I have seen enough in recent years to know that they are not for me. I am probably missing an occasional great coin or great deal, but I am willing to chance it. If I were in the coin business, I might feel otherwise. >>
<< <i>Like a raw coin whose edge is not visible. >>
In other words, worse than raw.
<< <i>I would never buy a "modern bullion" graded coin from ICG ... >>
Modern bullion coins ASEs & AGEs seem to get 70s more frequently from ICG than any of the other major TPGs.
Of course the vast majority of modern bullion SHOULD grade at 69 or better but ICG standards seem particularly lax. Just sayin'...
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>crypto---Nice original half. I like it. Those that won't even take the time to look at ICG slabs miss out on some very nice coins. To each his own. >>
It might be nice. It also might have a rim file or other hidden issue which would preclude it from grading at PCGS.
<< <i>crypto---Nice original half. I like it. Those that won't even take the time to look at ICG slabs miss out on some very nice coins. To each his own. >>
If someone could post some nice 19th century US gold coins that were recently seen or purchased in ICG holders, I will start looking at them more closely. Until then, there is no reason for me to bother. I would be better off spending time looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.
<< <i>
<< <i>crypto---Nice original half. I like it. Those that won't even take the time to look at ICG slabs miss out on some very nice coins. To each his own. >>
It might be nice. It also might have a rim file or other hidden issue which would preclude it from grading at PCGS. >>
Do you really think the graders at ICG are that incompetent that they would slab a coin with a filed rim or any other rim damage? Can you cite any examples where they did so?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Like a raw coin whose edge is not visible. >>
Bingo.
I have been involved in coins for 33 years, 25 as a full time dealer and 8 as a full time grader and here's my take on it. For the life of me, I can not figure out why anyone would bother with any other service outside of the big two. The others are worlds apart in every respect and with just a little investigative work that is clear as day.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I'll also glance at attractive women in Hyundai's, not just Mercedes or BMW's!
<< <i>Roadrunner, what is an "old gold foil ANACS holder"? >>
The first two or three years that ANACS began to slab coins, they had a hologram on the back of
the holder that had a gold color. Many of these are conservatively graded compared to today's
standards, especially U.S. gold coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>crypto---Nice original half. I like it. Those that won't even take the time to look at ICG slabs miss out on some very nice coins. To each his own. >>
It might be nice. It also might have a rim file or other hidden issue which would preclude it from grading at PCGS. >>
Do you really think the graders at ICG are that incompetent that they would slab a coin with a filed rim or any other rim damage? Can you cite any examples where they did so? >>
I tend to agree with your viewpoint here. While it is possible, it seems improbable to the extent
that it wouldn't factor in my decision to purchase an ICG coin. While I'll look at ANY coin, I don't find
many in ICG holders that I think are "all there" for the grade, and hence am usually only interested in
them at moderate to steep discounts over top tier TPG coins at the same grade.
I Cherrypicked a 1939 DDO FS-101 Merc from a dealer at Summer FUN. The holder said MS68. The dealer and I both agreed it was MS67. I paid MS67 price for a normal "1939" Merc.
What's the problem with this?
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>
<< <i>Like a raw coin whose edge is not visible. >>
Bingo.
I have been involved in coins for 33 years, 25 as a full time dealer and 8 as a full time grader and here's my take on it. For the life of me, I can not figure out why anyone would bother with any other service outside of the big two. The others are worlds apart in every respect and with just a little investigative work that is clear as day.
John >>
They are cheaper and more accessible(No memberships) to newer collectors (<< the main reason you tend to see lesser coins in their holders is because lesser collector use them) and provide a service that isn't as far away form the opinions of the main two as people would think. What they don't offer is reputation and the guarantee that the likes of our host does and that is why they are mainly thought of in a lesser degree. That and they sometimes sell there soul to places like QVC to keep their company in the black and their rep takes a deserved hit but not like the one a bankruptcy would. People knock them for the loose Modern grading but IMHO the whole modern grading game is one big sham no matter who is doing the grading, the only difference is some companies keep the % of top pops down to keep demand up.
While consistency might sometimes be an issue, I think on avg the graders at ANACS, ICG aren't that different in quality but collectors have a hard time defining & articulating their own fears about their own coin selection prowess and the resale of said hoard and they project their insecurities unfairly onto the lesser TPG's. Just my humble opinion
<< <i>For me it's all about what's in the holder...
I'll also glance at attractive women in Hyundai's, not just Mercedes or BMW's!
And how do you know the ones in Hyundai's are women
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58.
<< <i>Like crap. Example: I had a 1884-s Morgan $ in a ICG holder. Graded as AU55. Shopped it around a show and got all kinds of negative feedback on it. 8 different dealers and most said at BEST it was high XF. Cracked it out and went back next day with the wife. She went to 7 of the same dealers (one left early) and EVERY SINGLE ONE called it AU. Some said low, some said high.
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58. >>
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>Like crap. Example: I had a 1884-s Morgan $ in a ICG holder. Graded as AU55. Shopped it around a show and got all kinds of negative feedback on it. 8 different dealers and most said at BEST it was high XF. Cracked it out and went back next day with the wife. She went to 7 of the same dealers (one left early) and EVERY SINGLE ONE called it AU. Some said low, some said high.
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58. >>
Yeah, what do dealers know anyway
EAC 6024
<< <i>Like crap. Example: I had a 1884-s Morgan $ in a ICG holder. Graded as AU55. Shopped it around a show and got all kinds of negative feedback on it. 8 different dealers and most said at BEST it was high XF. Cracked it out and went back next day with the wife. She went to 7 of the same dealers (one left early) and EVERY SINGLE ONE called it AU. Some said low, some said high.
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58. >>
The story illustrates part of the problem and that ICG isn't well respected. Nice coins in ICG holders tend to get crossed to PCGS or NGC, as long as the coins are worth the extra expense. What is left in ICG holders tends to be the not so nice coins, or coins owned by the original submitter (not many of those because it isn't a popular service). This would happen no matter how good or consistent ICG was at grading, just because of market share and market acceptance. Dealers know all of this and play the game accordingly. Submitters know the game and submit accordingly.
<< <i>
<< <i>Like crap. Example: I had a 1884-s Morgan $ in a ICG holder. Graded as AU55. Shopped it around a show and got all kinds of negative feedback on it. 8 different dealers and most said at BEST it was high XF. Cracked it out and went back next day with the wife. She went to 7 of the same dealers (one left early) and EVERY SINGLE ONE called it AU. Some said low, some said high.
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58. >>
Yeah, what do dealers know anyway
Actually, one of them DID call it an AU58.
Along with the 'buy the coin, not the holder' sentiments.
A dealer acquaintance of mine purchased a 43D walker in PCI 65 holder.....I'm sure most wouldn't have
even glanced at the coin. It crossed into a PCGS 67 holder, and it was a solid one at that. Granted though,
this and the 84S Morgan dollar story above are the exception.
<< <i> Heritage will not accept ICG coins for auction. >>
Tthere are hundreds of ICG coins in recent, current, and future Heritage auctions
Link
to see how the various services rank in sight unseen bids.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Like a raw coin whose edge is not visible. >>
Bingo.
I have been involved in coins for 33 years, 25 as a full time dealer and 8 as a full time grader and here's my take on it. For the life of me, I can not figure out why anyone would bother with any other service outside of the big two. The others are worlds apart in every respect and with just a little investigative work that is clear as day.
John >>
I agree 100% without question. There is no reason why anyone should bother with any other service outside of the big two.......PCGS and CAC, the others truly ARE worlds apart in every respect and with just a little investigative work that is clear as day.
.
<< <i>For the past few years, I considered ICG coins the same as raw coins. Most dealers I see, who stock TPG coins, do not want to carry ICG coins. >>
i concur. i give the holder no credit at all. i see the coin as raw.
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i may pay attention to some variety information but i'll still attribute it myself anyways
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Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>
<< <i>Like crap. Example: I had a 1884-s Morgan $ in a ICG holder. Graded as AU55. Shopped it around a show and got all kinds of negative feedback on it. 8 different dealers and most said at BEST it was high XF. Cracked it out and went back next day with the wife. She went to 7 of the same dealers (one left early) and EVERY SINGLE ONE called it AU. Some said low, some said high.
I had a dealer submit it to PCGS. Came back AU58. >>
You are leaving some very important info out with your story. So lets fill in the blanks: when was it submitted to PCGS, when did you shop it around a show, what show and which ICG holder was it in. I would feel much better knowing at least the answer to my last question since that is the most important one, the rest of the questions was aksed to get a better take on the story. >>
Blanks that I can fill:
-Shopped around at Hot Springs, AR in spring of 2008. It was the first show I went to after I moved to AR.
-Submitted to PCGS late in 2008.
-I do not recall the holder. And that's interesting to me, what holders are there and which ones are considered to be better than others for ICG?
I had bought the coin at a little auction here. Thought it looked better than the grade on the holder and got it at a good price.
<< <i>I agree 100% without question. There is no reason why anyone should bother with any other service outside of the big two.......PCGS and CAC, the others truly ARE worlds apart in every respect and with just a little investigative work that is clear as day.
Strictly speaking, CAC is not a true TPG but a verifier of TPG grading.
NGC also does an excellent job of grading, IMO.
I like ANACS too for modern coins (especially the older slabs) but I am in the minority here it seems.
But it does seem the PCGS certified coins are the preferred slabs in the marketplace.
<< <i>The market considers these raw just like most ANACS, PCI, SEGS, and other companies.
Exceptions to this rule are the early ICG, PCI, Hallmark, and ANACS coins. Those often bring more money than currently graded PCGS/NGC coins since the standards in those early years
were much more stringent. It's hard to go wrong on those early 2nd tier slabs as long as you like the look of the coin. Most of the early holders are gone now, but you still can
find stragglers and old hoards. My eyes light up whenever I run across the old gold foil ANACS holders.
roadrunner >>
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