Can anyone tell me if this 1909-S VDB is the real thing

Gerard · August 21, 2011 12:03PM

Just bought this and wanted to get some opinions about its
authenticity. Sorry but these are the best pics I have.

Goldbully · August 21, 2011 12:05PM

I feel like I'm in outer space looking down at your copper penny!!!

dollarsandcents · August 21, 2011 12:07PM

You bought it without being certain of its authenticity? That sounds backwards to me.

TexasNationals · August 21, 2011 12:08PM

I see no pics?

ambro51 · August 21, 2011 12:11PM

OK. Look on the Reverse, at the VDB initials. On a Philadelphia Mint issue, the second period comes as close to the D as the first does to the V.

Now, on a San Francisco mint coin, the second period will be much further toward the middle, between the D and B, than toward the D. It will appear further from the D than the first one dies from the V.

Does that make sense? Thats the diagnostic.

tightbudget · August 21, 2011 12:13PM

Doesn't look right to me. The shape of the S appears off.

ArizonaJack · August 21, 2011 12:16PM

Nope

adamlaneus · August 21, 2011 12:17PM

i am curious as to what the forum experts have to say about the mintmark

A 1909-S VDB from coin facts:

Doesn't quite look the same. But then, there probably were multiple obverse dies.

TexasNationals · August 21, 2011 12:18PM

I agree the S is wrong, sorry

ambro51 · August 21, 2011 12:24PM

the VDB periods seem to be in the Philadelphia Mint arrangement V. D. B. rather than V. D . B.

(and the S is wrong)

Tdec1000 · August 21, 2011 12:27PM

The S is not correct and Lincoln looks funny.

ambro51 · August 21, 2011 12:36PM

heres my svdb reverse

AMRC · August 21, 2011 1:01PM

Need a big close-up of the mint mark. Look for a die chip in the inner-upper loop of the s. If it is there, you are most probably good. If not? Well let's not go there.

stevek · August 21, 2011 1:14PM

Sorry to sound so harsh, and I've been looking to get one of these at the right price, but anyone buying this coin not in a PCGS slab or other reputable TPG, in my opinion is a glutton for punishment.

CoinCoins · August 21, 2011 1:19PM

that's an obvious counterfeit

added mintmark... that S is stupid looking

atarian · August 21, 2011 1:26PM

oversized S to me. Hope they have a return policy

adamlaneus · August 21, 2011 1:34PM

So...I take it that there is one and only one sort of 'S' expected on this coin.

Obviously i'm not a cent collector. However, I do know that this is a key item and requires careful scrutiny.

1Mike1 · August 21, 2011 2:48PM

I vote it's counterfeit.

braddick · August 21, 2011 2:50PM

Chinese knockoff.
I own one just like it. The textured portrait (among other things) is the tell.

GrumpyEd · August 21, 2011 3:11PM

From that pic it looks like the mintmark is too big.

There is only one style of S used and only 4 different mintmark locations.

This PCGS article shows the 4 positions:

look here

The dot position on S-VDBs is different like Ambro said but I can't see it clear enough in the pics.
The real S-VDBs ONLY have it in the position shown in these pics so if it's wrong it's fake.
I've never seen proof that absolutely no P-VDBs have it in that position but every one I've looked at has it in the position as in these pics. There were a lot of dies used for P-VDBs so it's possible that some had the other position.
So to be safe it's a one way rule, it can prove the coin fake but alone it does not prove it real.

The VDB used on P and S cents:

giorgio11 · August 21, 2011 9:50PM

<< So...I take it that there is one and only one sort of 'S' expected on this coin.

Obviously i'm not a cent collector. However, I do know that this is a key item and requires careful scrutiny. >>

Yes, they only used a single mintmark punch, so all show the groove through the top of the S. There are, however, four different known obverse dies, each with the same-style mintmark in slightly different locations. The coin in the OP looks clearly bogus to me.

PerryHall · August 21, 2011 10:07PM

<< I agree the S is wrong, sorry >>

Yup. Wrong S mintmark. Probably an added mintmark although there are struck counterfeits in the marketplace including some from China.

BillJones · August 21, 2011 10:52PM

The "S" mint mark is not the right shape. It should be "fat" in the middle, and that one is thin. It's a fake coin all the way.

drwstr123 · August 21, 2011 11:08PM

<< Chinese knockoff.
I own one just like it. The textured portrait (among other things) is the tell. >>

That's what I saw.

IrishMikey · August 22, 2011 1:21AM

<< 

<< Chinese knockoff.
I own one just like it. The textured portrait (among other things) is the tell. >>

That's what I saw. >>

Definitely agree -- your coin is a Chinese counterfeit. I have seen several that look
exactly like this one.

AUandAG · August 22, 2011 1:28AM

When the second "U" in UNUM is larger than the first, it's a good clue.

bob

BillJones · August 22, 2011 4:50AM

<< 

<< 

<< Chinese knockoff.
I own one just like it. The textured portrait (among other things) is the tell. >>

That's what I saw. >>

Definitely agree -- your coin is a Chinese counterfeit. I have seen several that look
exactly like this one. >>

Yes, the partial wire rim at the bottom of the obverse is a tip-off. I don't recall ever seeing a 1909-S-VDB Lincoln with a wire rim, but I've seen a wire rim on several Chinese counterfeit Morgan Dollars.

Shamika · August 22, 2011 5:25AM

<< From that pic it looks like the mintmark is too big.

There is only one style of S used and only 4 different mintmark locations.

This PCGS article shows the 4 positions:

look here

The dot position on S-VDBs is different like Ambro said but I can't see it clear enough in the pics.
The real S-VDBs ONLY have it in the position shown in these pics so if it's wrong it's fake.
I've never seen proof that absolutely no P-VDBs have it in that position but every one I've looked at has it in the position as in these pics. There were a lot of dies used for P-VDBs so it's possible that some had the other position.
So to be safe it's a one way rule, it can prove the coin fake but alone it does not prove it real.

The VDB used on P and S cents:

>>

GrumpyEd - Thanks for this diagnostic. I didn't know about this one.

Gerard - Sorry to say, but your S-VDB appears to be a counterfeit. The S was an immediate red flag when I opened this thread.

Can anyone tell me if this 1909-S VDB is the real thing

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