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A Bizarre Coin Situation - Need Advice (9/19/11 Update in OP)
Coinosaurus
Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am going to change some of the details, because I don't want to make everything public.
About 12 months ago I sent dealer X a large check for a nearly unique item, which I am not going to describe.
Dealer X is fairly well known in the biz.
Said dealer has not acknowledged receiving the check in writing but it has been cashed. I have spoken with the dealer at a show, he said he received the check and is "looking" for the item, it is in warehouse "somewhere."
I don't want piss this guy off too much because I really want the thing I am trying to buy & he is the only one that has it. It is the kind of thing that will never appear at auction and is only traded to insiders, and very rarely at that.
On the other hand, he has my dough (4 figures) and is sitting on it without much apparent action.
I have left a couple voicemails with no response.
Where do I go from here??
Even if the deal goes bad, it is unlikely I would out them, becasue I have a certain respect for their reputation. So that is not in the equation.
[9/19/11] Update - I have been made the whole, got the money back from the dealer. He still "can't find" the item. I'm disappointed I didn't get my tschoschke but I think there is a lesson here - there is enough cool stuff out there that you shouldn't get obsessed with a single item to the point of making unwise business decisions.
About 12 months ago I sent dealer X a large check for a nearly unique item, which I am not going to describe.
Dealer X is fairly well known in the biz.
Said dealer has not acknowledged receiving the check in writing but it has been cashed. I have spoken with the dealer at a show, he said he received the check and is "looking" for the item, it is in warehouse "somewhere."
I don't want piss this guy off too much because I really want the thing I am trying to buy & he is the only one that has it. It is the kind of thing that will never appear at auction and is only traded to insiders, and very rarely at that.
On the other hand, he has my dough (4 figures) and is sitting on it without much apparent action.
I have left a couple voicemails with no response.
Where do I go from here??
Even if the deal goes bad, it is unlikely I would out them, becasue I have a certain respect for their reputation. So that is not in the equation.
[9/19/11] Update - I have been made the whole, got the money back from the dealer. He still "can't find" the item. I'm disappointed I didn't get my tschoschke but I think there is a lesson here - there is enough cool stuff out there that you shouldn't get obsessed with a single item to the point of making unwise business decisions.
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Comments
You have every right to be upset. At this point a veiled threat to out him would not be out of line, IMHO.
TD
At this point, you are very unlikely to get the item you paid for and, unless you assert yourself, you won't get your money back either.
I'd raise hell.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I am going to change some of the details, because I don't want to make everything public.
About 12 months ago I sent dealer X a large check for a nearly unique item, which I am not going to describe.
Dealer X is fairly well known in the biz.
Said dealer has not acknowledged receiving the check in writing but it has been cashed. I have spoken with the dealer at a show, he said he received the check and is "looking" for the item, it is in warehouse "somewhere."
... I really want the thing I am trying to buy & he is the only one that has it. It is the kind of thing that will never appear at auction and is only traded to insiders, and very rarely at that.
On the other hand, he has my dough (4 figures) and is sitting on it without much apparent action.
I have left a couple voicemails with no response.
Where do I go from here??
Even if the deal goes bad, it is unlikely I would out them, becasue I have a certain respect for their reputation. So that is not in the equation. >>
At this point, the guy is just being unprofessional and ridiculous. You have no idea of what he is doing, and he could just be waiting for a better offer, while he holds your money. He says he is looking for it, but who really just "misplaces" a four figure coin?
Get your money back, in my opinion.
That way he has an incentive to either find it or return your money, but you've left the door open for future business together.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
No excuse whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Four figures, 12 months and he cashed the check?
You have every right to be upset. At this point a veiled threat to out him would not be out of line, IMHO.
TD >>
Agree with Tom. Do you give all dealers interest free loans? Do you frequently buy and pay for a coin that a dealer doesn't have?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thx.
<< <i>You are letting fear control you. You are afraid to piss him off and not get possession of the coin. Well guess what you don't ahve the coin and on top of that he has your money and for some time now. I would be pissing him off in order to make sure I get the coin by threatening to out him here. he doesn't want to lose his good name, and that will happen if after all this time you don't receive the coin. And what if he is waiting on a better offer to come along, so the sooner you do this the hard way the sooner you will really get the coin. So lets get ready to rumble and don't let fear screw you up, right now he should be fearing you and what you will do to him. >>
Down boy!
Tom
You sell an item worth 4 figures.
The check has been cashed.
It's been over 6 months and the item has not been located.
What would you do?
I'd be tearing the place apart trying to find the thing hoping I hadn't lost it or had it stolen.
If, after tearing for 1 month, the thing still has not been located, I'd return the money and offer to sell the thing to the person at the agreed upon price if it ever turns up.
<< <i>lets get ready to rumble >>
Never thought I'd hear this from Realone ... but I'm pleasantly surprised
And you want something too much.
<< <i>Sounds like this guy does not deserve the rep he now has.
And you want something too much.
We always preface our wise sayings with... "Confucius says..."
Confucius always prefaced his wise sayings with... "Linde says..."
<< <i>Ask for your money back and let him know when he find it, you'll send it back along with another $100. When he needs the money he will find it. Right now he's got the money and the item...why should he be in a hurry to find it. Your an enabler.
Bingo. I knew I would get some good advice here. I'm gonna go this route, I think it is the best way for both parties to get what they want without unncessarily inflaming the situation.
I agree with some of the posters above: give him/her a timeline and then stick to it.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case.
<< <i>Your behavior makes no sense. The guy has had your money for a year and isn't responding to your calls.
At this point, you are very unlikely to get the item you paid for and, unless you assert yourself, you won't get your money back either.
I'd raise hell. >>
I agree. In fact I would not be at all as forbearing. I would expect the item or a refund without any delay after 14 days from the date they cashed the check. If a person or company has not performed for one year what expectation do you have that they will at all , zero or less is my guess. You should for certain out this company if they have made the choice to cash your check and not deliver your item people need to be warned about them. Be assured you are not the only person they have done this too.
I would be very much on there tail's about this. The BBB and the 2 major news groups would have the account of this transaction. I would then make sure they are aware that any steps that are possible to enforce the contract would be taken. You need to be aware if you wait for 2 years some states do not allow you to pursue this in small claims court.
Good luck on a positive result I hope you get the item you have been waiting for so patiently or at least a refund.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ask for your money back and let him know when he find it, you'll send it back along with another $100. When he needs the money he will find it. Right now he's got the money and the item...why should he be in a hurry to find it. Your an enabler.
Bingo. I knew I would get some good advice here. I'm gonna go this route, I think it is the best way for both parties to get what they want without unncessarily inflaming the situation. >>
An extra 100.00 for holding your $$$$$ for a year and won't answer your calls, And NOW give a time line?
Be sure to bring him a bottle of cold water and a sandwich at a show as well.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"I have left a couple voicemails with no response." I guess it is just me but regardless who the dealer is that just does not sound acceptable.
AL
<< <i>I don't want piss this guy off too much because I really want the thing I am trying to buy & he is the only one that has it. >>
Allegedly has it.
Russ, NCNE
This guy's reputation is worth four figures of YOUR money? Why would you think that?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>I am going to change some of the details, because I don't want to make everything public.
About 12 months ago I sent dealer X a large check for a nearly unique item, which I am not going to describe.
Dealer X is fairly well known in the biz.
Said dealer has not acknowledged receiving the check in writing but it has been cashed. I have spoken with the dealer at a show, he said he received the check and is "looking" for the item, it is in warehouse "somewhere."
I don't want piss this guy off too much because I really want the thing I am trying to buy & he is the only one that has it. It is the kind of thing that will never appear at auction and is only traded to insiders, and very rarely at that.
On the other hand, he has my dough (4 figures) and is sitting on it without much apparent action.
I have left a couple voicemails with no response.
Where do I go from here??
Even if the deal goes bad, it is unlikely I would out them, becasue I have a certain respect for their reputation. So that is not in the equation. >>
I suggest you wait another 12 months and politely ask him again since you have so much respect for him.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
every major numismatic organization. He would almost never return my phone calls and it took me calling him to get in touch with him. As the months dragged on I didn't want to tee him off and then have him hold my remaining money hostage. He kept saying he was good for it and I would be well-rewarded for my patience. That was all swell until the day he declared bankruptcy. And that was the end of my 5 figures. His "reward" to me for my patience was to not declare me as a creditor in the proceedings. So it wasn't until long after the bankruptcy was over that I even knew he went out of business.
If I was in your shoes I'd be more interested in the return of my money than holding out for a coin, esp. in this economy where many dealers are teetering on the brink.
Sounds like your helping to fund his business with a zero interest loan. If he's a member of any major organization (PNG, ANA, ICTA, etc.) at least a phone call to them might
help evoke a response. And yes, you'll tee him off, but who cares at this point? You are apparently not a valued customer of this guy. Been there, done that, ate it.
roadrunner
I also really like ms. morrison's take on it, from the dealer's perspective.....that is what SHOULD have been done, if the guy was truly respectful of his customers!
I bet that
1) There is no paperwork that says that anyone will deliver X item for payment of X dollars.
2) The item is not a typical coin that was negotiated. I imagine it is exonumia and suspect it may be something controversial. Perhaps even something illegal?
3) The amount of money involved is less important than we think, and represents a small amount compared to the cost of losing business or good standing with this individual.
If these are the case, the typical solutions of demand item/refund or else I'll sue you really don't apply. I think some verbal finesse may be more in order. Exerting pressure through other means may prove more effective, such as involving a third party. A certified letter would at least start a paper trail if you want to go that route. Perhaps you could offer to take other merchandise for now for the monies received until this said item turns up.
You have already taken off the table besmirching his name, which most of us would have no problem doing, which makes me think there is more to the story than you are willing to tell. Good luck!
I guarantee you'll get a response. I would have raised hell after one month.
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I wonder how many other people are protecting his stellar reputation? >>
Interesting comments , i think of all the above is what i take from this thread.
<< <i>BTW guys four figures cases are not handled in most small claims courts.
many states have small claims limits of over 4 figures at least 10. New Mexico and Illinois are 2 that have 10k limits. It is rare that superior court is a good option for lower value claims as it typically cost far more then small claims court as you need a lawyer for some aspects of that.
<< <i>I wonder how many other people are protecting his stellar reputation? >>
The OP respects the reputation of the party with whom he's dealing. There can be no logical advice given because it's too bizarre.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
From only the information given, the OP is being naive/stupid in this transaction.
Getting the money back is the first, and foremost thing that should happen in absence of immediate delivery of the item.
And, to not "out" someone acting in this regard is to potentially allow others to be taken advantage of as well. Maybe he has done this before and others were too afraid to "out" him, so you got taken....have you thought of that?
I'm hoping the person isn't a crook, but just as a dealer shouldn't wait for months for a collector to pay (unless they have an agreed upon contract/discussion on a payment plan/date), then a collector shouldn't wait that long on a dealer, once the dealer has been paid in full.
You are likely too much of a nice guy and you are being taken advantage of and, as Greg said earlier, you are being an enabler.
Sorry, but no respect for you on this one.
Man up, get your money back, and if you want the item so bad, have one of the dealer bulldogs get it for you and pay them for their effort. I really doubt they will allow someone to just hold their money for that long.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>BTW guys four figures cases are not handled in most small claims courts.
many states have small claims limits of over 4 figures at least 10. New Mexico and Illinois are 2 that have 10k limits. It is rare that superior court is a good option for lower value claims as it typically cost far more then small claims court as you need a lawyer for some aspects of that.
Only 10 out of 50 still means most to me.
a YEAR??
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