Get X customers to float you interest-free long-term loans without any paperwork, based entirely on the promise of delivery on some undisclosed future date.
Sounds more like a ponzi scheme than anything else.
Could be a "well-regarded" octogenarian with Alzheimer's. Who knows. The OP has parked 4-digits worth of $$$$ for 12 mos. with nothing in return. Obviously "dealer" is an individual who is highly regarded by the OP, who in turn is highly regarded here, OP that is. Go figure. This is bizarre and no advice from normal folks with ordinary transaction experience can help. If you waited this long to ask for a refund, you've waited way beyond the normal call of duty. Good luck!
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I agree llafoe's image of this dog as I would feel the same way this dog does! Gimmy my money back sucka! 12 months is WAY to long and if he "does not" answer my voice mail then this would be just way out there!! Get you money back my friend.....Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Regardless of whether there is a screwy justification on the dealer's side of this transaction, for you to remain in the dark after a year is inexcusable for buyer and seller. The dealer should care a little more about accounting to you for your money, even if you don't seem to care. I am the most patient man I have ever met, but this thing either needs to end nicely or get undone.
Communication is the best. Start calling daily until you get the straight scoop.
I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response!
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
<< <i>BTW guys four figures cases are not handled in most small claims courts. >>
Your comment is incorrect, although some small claims courts do not do "high four figures". The OP can Google "small claims court" and his jurisdiction, and get all the information he needs.
Not only is small claims court, in my opinion, the best way for the OP to resolve this, but usually just the threat of legal action thru small claims court, will get somebody like this seller to refund the money. If the money amount is above the small claims court ceiling, the OP could get a collections attorney involved - some will do a "collection letter" for a set fee, and only charge a commission percentage if further legal action is needed.
Wouldn't it be something if there were a few dozen collectors, all of whom were promised a item that cannot be discussed, all of whom paid thousands in advance, and all of whom are patiently waiting for the item to be located in a warehouse?
Coinosaurus, have you actually seen the item?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
OK it changed and went up to $5000.00 here in Wasington state went up a bunch in twenty five years since I had course to use it. Not sure what state the OP is in or the dealer at this time.
<< <i>This dealer may well be on their way to bankruptcy. In that case you would be SOOL. Tell him in effect that you will pick up your money or the item at the show. Any failure on the dealers part to complete the transaction would cause an immediate demand to PNG for arbitration of the issue. Get you copy of the canceled check and any other documentation and get set to rumble. In addition to filing for arbitration, I would out the SOB and nail his lying carcass to the wall. In this business a persons word is his bond. Break that word and suffer the consequences. >>
In retrospect I had an opportunity to embarrass the dealer that screwed me over when he attended the Thanksgiving White Plains Show in NY. But I decided at the last moment to give him more "respect" and not belittle him in front of all his peers. Boy, I wish I had a do-over on that one. I'd have been yelling across the room that the guy's owed me $XX,XXX for over a year so don't anyone take a check from him until he pays me first. I probably could have walked out of that show with his inventory under my arm if that's what it took to get compensated. Unfortunately no do-overs.
Do see your guy at the next show and take full advantage of the opportunity....but not to the point where they call the police and toss you in jail for a public disturbance.
Is this an LSCC member? I once had a person high up in the club drag out an approval sale for >1 yr as well. It was only for $190 and I was ready to write it off. He did eventually pay. Never heard from him since and he's still active as a dealer. Maybe if ole XX had screwed me over for that $190 I wouldn't have been so charitable when the next potential screwing came along.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot!
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
I think it's impossible to give good advice without knowing the seller, the item and the price. For example, if QDB is the seller, the item is a temporarily MIA book from his library, and the price is about right, I would not be so quick to unwind the transaction, much less declare war.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally.
<< <i>OK it changed and went up to $5000.00 here in Wasington state went up a bunch in twenty five years since I had course to use it. Not sure what state the OP is in or the dealer at this time. >>
The OP would actually need to file suit in the seller's jurisdiction, at the seller's local small claims court. Big city small claims courts can be a pain in the neck, but suburban small claims courts are usually very cooperative and helpful towards the plaintiff, and everything can normally be filed and done by mail - the court clerks don't like stiff artists either, even when they are local citizens.
<< <i>For example, if QDB is the seller, the item is a temporarily MIA book from his library, and the price is about right, I would not be so quick to unwind the transaction, much less declare war. >>
No matter how high profile the dealer in question, it doesn't excuse the behavior.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
roadrunner >>
A lot of times showing up on the family doorstep will cause the family to apply pressure on the individual to make things right. They do not want problems coming to their home. And showing the people that you know where they live and you are willing to make the trip will cause them worry. If that does not work you clearly will have to file a lawsuit. Small claims court will see cases up to $5,000 in many states. Some states it is up to $7,500. In most states it costs less than $100 to file a lawsuit with the court system. It is very easy to do. The prospect of a person having to spend money on a lawyer will frequently cause them to make thing s right as well. I would never put myself in the position of losing so I would be sure to show up with email correspondence about the deal, copies of all communications, the invoice from the individual/business along with anything else. You can also go the way of BAD PRESS by contacting local news agencies that "Help the Consumer" type of news agencies. In my area, NBC has an '8 On Your Side' segment and they are helpful as well.
I wish the parties luck in resolving the problem but when simple phone calls do not work, there are other ways.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
A lot of times showing up on the family doorstep will cause the family to apply pressure on the individual to make things right. They do not want problems coming to their home. And showing the people that you know where they live and you are willing to make the trip will cause them worry. If that does not work you clearly will have to file a lawsuit. Small claims court will see cases up to $5,000 in many states. Some states it is up to $7,500. In most states it costs less than $100 to file a lawsuit with the court system. It is very easy to do. The prospect of a person having to spend money on a lawyer will frequently cause them to make thing s right as well. I would never put myself in the position of losing so I would be sure to show up with email correspondence about the deal, copies of all communications, the invoice from the individual/business along with anything else.
Getting an out-of-state small claims judgement, and then collecting on it are two totally different things. By the time one gets involved with a lawyer, or incurs the expenses of days off from work, air fare, hotels, etc. you are probably looking at $1,000 for starters. So if you don't end up getting a paid judgement, you are just throwing good money after bad. I knew I could get a judgement on internet/mail fraud, but I sincerely doubted I would ever see a cent. And the people I confered with agreed with that assessment.
If there is no solid paper trail in the OP's case pressure from family members may not work as they would side with the seller. Seller vs. Buyer word's as to what happened. It's a shame but when dealing with anyone concerning significant sums get it all in writing, at each phase of the transaction, not just the beginning. In my dealer's case, he was providing me with coins and then stopped sending them when only half the amount was transacted. The paperwork on what was exactly owed at that point was not very precise, only the original document at the start was in great detail. The transaction was never meant to go on for more than a few weeks or months. But the dragging on of things really muddled the picture. And I think the dealer was savvy enough that he was not going to provide any additional paperwork. When I went to the ANA since he was a life member, they told me they couldn't do anything because I wasn't a member at the time. They did contact the dealer but all he told them was that he successfully negotiated bankruptcy and that any issues I had were now outside that realm and should be taken up with an attorney. The ANA was satisfied with that and dropped it. Ironically, the guy went right back into business only a few towns away from his old location.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
roadrunner >>
Roadrunner, I must say that this isn't true everywhere. I live in Minnesota. I had a guy who I had purchased a keyboard over Craigslist from. He failed to deliver. The police showed up at his house. They got him to ship the keyboard immediately before charges were filed. It was the only time I've ever had to deal with the police on an Internet purchase, but it worked for me. It failed horribly for my father. So he doesn't buy over the Internet. And that keyboard? A whole value of 499 dollars. He was in Florida somewhere. Don't remember where. Things are different everywhere, apparently.
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally. >>
Minnesota is a "one party" state. I learned during my custody matter five years ago. It is VERY illegal in some states and is considered wiretapping if you are recording and the other party does not consent. One party consent states only require the person recording consenting to the recording. Pretty silly, but also very helpful. My lawyer recorded every phone call, even new clients.
Okay, this is all I have to say regarding this thread. I'd like to read what happens though later on. Keep us posted!
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally. >>
Minnesota is a "one party" state. I learned during my custody matter five years ago. It is VERY illegal in some states and is considered wiretapping if you are recording and the other party does not consent. One party consent states only require the person recording consenting to the recording. Pretty silly, but also very helpful. My lawyer recorded every phone call, even new clients.
Okay, this is all I have to say regarding this thread. I'd like to read what happens though later on. Keep us posted! >>
Interesting, I had no idea This was just an idea that popped into my head because the OP seemed to have a lack of proof about the transaction. It does seem like we aren't getting the whole story regarding the item and the transaction. Best of luck to the OP in the retrieval of money or product
<<< Getting an out-of-state small claims judgement, and then collecting on it are two totally different things. By the time one gets involved with a lawyer, or incurs the expenses of days off from work, air fare, hotels, etc. you are probably looking at $1,000 for starters. So if you don't end up getting a paid judgement, you are just throwing good money after bad. I knew I could get a judgement on internet/mail fraud, but I sincerely doubted I would ever see a cent. And the people I confered with agreed with that assessment. >>>
I'm not disagreeing with your points, however I think you are overstating the negatives involved. I've filed a number of "out of state" small claims over the years and only one that I can recall was unsuccessful...and I never had to showup in court. I filed for the writ of execution after a successful judgement and the sheriff collected the money and it was sent to me.
Still, to expound on what you implied, it takes smart business acumen to realize when and if a small claims suit can be successful. There are too many variables involved for a quick post here, suffice to say that if the OP believes the seller has money and/or assets and the winning suit money can be collected, then it would be foolish in my opinion not to go for it.
Sorry to say if the OP sent a four figure check to someone unreliable and say living in an apartment who could be transient and hard to track down for a writ of execution, then that was the OP's mistake. If the seller has a place of business and/or is a homeowner, then the chances of success are very good - and that to me is what it seems like for this seller based on the information posted.
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such.
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such. >>
I can agree to that, but if the OP has to involve the courts to get a refund of his money they might not accept meeting of the minds as proof of non receipt. What would happen if the dealer said the OP received his item, and is trying to extort him?
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such. >>
I can agree to that, but if the OP has to involve the courts to get a refund of his money they might not accept meeting of the minds as proof of non receipt. What would happen if the dealer said the OP received his item, and is trying to extort him? >>
then, its up to the buyer to show non-performance. The seller would have to prove he sent the item if he claims he did.
Small claims has a lower threshold of proof the buyer will almost for sure be able to prove non-nonperformance by the seller.
<< <i>1. Have your attorney send him a formal letter immediately.
2. Let him know that you are prepared to file charges if you either do not receive the item within 1 week or a certified check for your money back.
Enough is freakin enough! >>
I mean absolutely, 100%, no offense to this question, but for #1 above......I hear that so often, but in reality, how many folks, who don't run their own business or aren't crooks, HAVE their own attorney???
The few times I have needed one (getting rear-ended and needing my car fixed and some medical and their insurance company started playing games....), I had to go find one. Not always that easy as many attorneys are too busy, don't want the case for any number of reasons, are unrealistic, etc.
<< <i>I would send him a link to this thread and tell him that he will be outed if he doesn't return my money. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I think it's impossible to give good advice without knowing the seller, the item and the price. For example, if QDB is the seller, the item is a temporarily MIA book from his library, and the price is about right, I would not be so quick to unwind the transaction, much less declare war. >>
Bad example. QDB would at least return your phone calls.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This situation is unbelievable. I cannot imagine waiting a year for a four figure item with little or no communications and then only poor excuses. It truly is a 'bizarre coin situation'.... on both parts. Cheers, RickO
I would think that a first step to "push" a bit without some of the overreactions given above would be a certified letter outlining the situation and a request for either merchandise or funds within 30 days.
With a nice cc: to your lawyer at the bottom of the page.
My opinion is that in all likelyhood the SELLER-- AKA-the taker of your check, has no intention of fufilling his end of the deal. So he must need your money at this point. Congrats on your charitable contribution to his retirement fund.
There are lots of ways to square this deal up. Never elevate civil to criminal.
Probably best to forget about the item. Just go for a 2 for 1 reimbursement. At the bourse. In front of everybody if he wants to play it out. Otherwise he owns you. And that is a bad precedent to set .
And link him to this thread. He's the one who is squirrelly unless there is more to this deal than what is written here.
<< <i>Typical dealer. That's standard operating procedure on their planet. >>
Come on, now! Do you really believe "typical" dealers would do this? Get real! >>
Some people just love to express their hatred.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
Sounds more like a ponzi scheme than anything else.
P.T. Barnum would be proud.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Cheers!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I agree llafoe's image of this dog as I would feel the same way this dog does! Gimmy my money back sucka! 12 months is WAY to long and if he "does not" answer my voice mail then this would be just way out there!! Get you money back my friend.....Joe
Communication is the best. Start calling daily until you get the straight scoop.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner
<< <i>BTW guys four figures cases are not handled in most small claims courts.
Your comment is incorrect, although some small claims courts do not do "high four figures". The OP can Google "small claims court" and his jurisdiction, and get all the information he needs.
Not only is small claims court, in my opinion, the best way for the OP to resolve this, but usually just the threat of legal action thru small claims court, will get somebody like this seller to refund the money. If the money amount is above the small claims court ceiling, the OP could get a collections attorney involved - some will do a "collection letter" for a set fee, and only charge a commission percentage if further legal action is needed.
Tell him in effect that you will pick up your money or the item at the show. Any failure
on the dealers part to complete the transaction would cause an immediate demand to PNG
for arbitration of the issue. Get you copy of the canceled check and any other documentation
and get set to rumble. In addition to filing for arbitration, I would out the SOB and nail his lying
carcass to the wall. In this business a persons word is his bond. Break that word and suffer the
consequences.
Camelot
Coinosaurus, have you actually seen the item?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
This dealer isn't from the West Coast, is he? PM me if he is....
<< <i>This dealer may well be on their way to bankruptcy. In that case you would be SOOL.
Tell him in effect that you will pick up your money or the item at the show. Any failure
on the dealers part to complete the transaction would cause an immediate demand to PNG
for arbitration of the issue. Get you copy of the canceled check and any other documentation
and get set to rumble. In addition to filing for arbitration, I would out the SOB and nail his lying
carcass to the wall. In this business a persons word is his bond. Break that word and suffer the
consequences. >>
In retrospect I had an opportunity to embarrass the dealer that screwed me over when he attended the Thanksgiving White Plains Show in NY. But I decided at the last
moment to give him more "respect" and not belittle him in front of all his peers. Boy, I wish I had a do-over on that one. I'd have been yelling across the room that the
guy's owed me $XX,XXX for over a year so don't anyone take a check from him until he pays me first. I probably could have walked out of that show with his inventory under
my arm if that's what it took to get compensated. Unfortunately no do-overs.
Do see your guy at the next show and take full advantage of the opportunity....but not to the point where they call the police and toss you in jail for a public disturbance.
Is this an LSCC member? I once had a person high up in the club drag out an approval sale for >1 yr as well. It was only for $190 and I was ready to write it off. He did
eventually pay. Never heard from him since and he's still active as a dealer. Maybe if ole XX had screwed me over for that $190 I wouldn't have been so charitable when
the next potential screwing came along.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot!
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never
delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
roadrunner
<< <i>Why would you advertise that you can be taken? >>
My ex-wife kept trying to get people to take me!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally.
<< <i>OK it changed and went up to $5000.00 here in Wasington state went up a bunch in twenty five years since I had course to use it. Not sure what state the OP is in or the dealer at this time.
The OP would actually need to file suit in the seller's jurisdiction, at the seller's local small claims court. Big city small claims courts can be a pain in the neck, but suburban small claims courts are usually very cooperative and helpful towards the plaintiff, and everything can normally be filed and done by mail - the court clerks don't like stiff artists either, even when they are local citizens.
<< <i>For example, if QDB is the seller, the item is a temporarily MIA book from his library, and the price is about right, I would not be so quick to unwind the transaction, much less declare war. >>
No matter how high profile the dealer in question, it doesn't excuse the behavior.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never
delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
roadrunner >>
A lot of times showing up on the family doorstep will cause the family to apply pressure on the individual to make things right. They do not want problems coming to their home. And showing the people that you know where they live and you are willing to make the trip will cause them worry. If that does not work you clearly will have to file a lawsuit. Small claims court will see cases up to $5,000 in many states. Some states it is up to $7,500. In most states it costs less than $100 to file a lawsuit with the court system. It is very easy to do. The prospect of a person having to spend money on a lawyer will frequently cause them to make thing s right as well. I would never put myself in the position of losing so I would be sure to show up with email correspondence about the deal, copies of all communications, the invoice from the individual/business along with anything else. You can also go the way of BAD PRESS by contacting local news agencies that "Help the Consumer" type of news agencies. In my area, NBC has an '8 On Your Side' segment and they are helpful as well.
I wish the parties luck in resolving the problem but when simple phone calls do not work, there are other ways.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Getting an out-of-state small claims judgement, and then collecting on it are two totally different things. By the time one gets involved with a lawyer, or incurs the expenses of days
off from work, air fare, hotels, etc. you are probably looking at $1,000 for starters. So if you don't end up getting a paid judgement, you are just throwing good money after bad. I knew
I could get a judgement on internet/mail fraud, but I sincerely doubted I would ever see a cent. And the people I confered with agreed with that assessment.
If there is no solid paper trail in the OP's case pressure from family members may not work as they would side with the seller. Seller vs. Buyer word's as to what happened. It's a shame but when dealing with anyone concerning significant sums get it all in writing, at each phase of the transaction, not just the beginning. In my dealer's case, he was providing me with coins and then stopped sending them when only half the amount was transacted. The paperwork on what was exactly owed at that point was not very precise, only the original document at the start was in great detail. The transaction was never meant to go on for more than a few weeks or months. But the dragging on of things really muddled the picture. And I think the dealer was savvy enough that he was not going to provide any additional paperwork. When I went to the ANA since he was a life member, they told me they couldn't do anything because I wasn't a member at the time. They did contact the dealer but all he told them was that he successfully negotiated bankruptcy and that any issues I had were now outside that realm and should be taken up with an attorney. The ANA was satisfied with that and dropped it. Ironically, the guy went right back into business only a few towns away
from his old location.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how the dealer would feel when I (or someone I know) showed up unannounced at his house asking his family questions. This tends to get a quick response! >>
Yes....and usually with the local police showing up asking why you are bothering this upstanding citizen. If it ain't on paper....it don't exist.
roadrunner >>
I'm not stupid. I would show up with phone records of me trying to reach the individual, any email correspondence about the deal, evidence of the cashed check going through his bank account and I might be the person bringing the police WITH ME, filing a report and busting the idiot! >>
Good luck with that. I went to local and out of state cops on a case where someone from Ebay never delivered a $2000 coin to me. There was no question the coin was never
delivered. The seller never claimed it was. I filled out police reports and gave them about a dozen documents to prove the auction was lifted and they never even owned the coin in question. They couldn't even produce anything showing shipment and I had a canceled check with the seller's signature on it. In the end, neither police jurisdiction would lift a finger, not even to ring the door bell of the seller whose home address was known to me. So good luck getting police to move on such a situation especially when there is no obvious fraud as of yet, just a huge delay between parties who know each other. The police, FBI, USPS, Ebay, state AG's, etc. all have better ways to spend their time than tracking down complaints for such small amounts. If you're ripped off in your own town, by a town resident, then you might have a fighting chance with the local police...out of state? forgettaboutit. Your only chance in that in that case is if it can tied in with a much larger fraud ring where the FBI or USPS inspectors might take up the case. In my situation the local internet crime investigator wouldn't touch the case even after I filed a formal USPS theft complaint. I ultimately contacted one out of another jurisdiction for help but as much as they sympathized, there was nothing they could do. So if you're gonna get screwed, do it with a seller from Dallas as the local federal internet crime investigator is a bull dog. But for the most part, the crooks have home field advantage, and a 5 run head start. Show up at the out-of-state seller's door at your own risk, they hold most of the cards.
roadrunner >>
Roadrunner, I must say that this isn't true everywhere. I live in Minnesota. I had a guy who I had purchased a keyboard over Craigslist from. He failed to deliver. The police showed up at his house. They got him to ship the keyboard immediately before charges were filed. It was the only time I've ever had to deal with the police on an Internet purchase, but it worked for me. It failed horribly for my father. So he doesn't buy over the Internet. And that keyboard? A whole value of 499 dollars. He was in Florida somewhere. Don't remember where. Things are different everywhere, apparently.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally. >>
Minnesota is a "one party" state. I learned during my custody matter five years ago. It is VERY illegal in some states and is considered wiretapping if you are recording and the other party does not consent. One party consent states only require the person recording consenting to the recording. Pretty silly, but also very helpful. My lawyer recorded every phone call, even new clients.
Okay, this is all I have to say regarding this thread. I'd like to read what happens though later on. Keep us posted!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would be trying to get proof via tape that he admits to having your check and that he still hasn't delivered said item. Not really sure how you would prove he hasn't delivered the item to the law if it went that far. >>
I don't think it will come to that, but it would be easy enough to hit the voice record thing on my cell phone the next time I talk to them. Probably not a bad idea, just in case. >>
Depending on which state you are in this may be legal or illegal. Check the laws on that state first if you do decide to do this.
Plus cell phone recording is, in general, terrible. Get a better recorder if you intend to do this, after verifying you are able to do so legally. >>
Minnesota is a "one party" state. I learned during my custody matter five years ago. It is VERY illegal in some states and is considered wiretapping if you are recording and the other party does not consent. One party consent states only require the person recording consenting to the recording. Pretty silly, but also very helpful. My lawyer recorded every phone call, even new clients.
Okay, this is all I have to say regarding this thread. I'd like to read what happens though later on. Keep us posted! >>
Interesting, I had no idea
off from work, air fare, hotels, etc. you are probably looking at $1,000 for starters. So if you don't end up getting a paid judgement, you are just throwing good money after bad. I knew
I could get a judgement on internet/mail fraud, but I sincerely doubted I would ever see a cent. And the people I confered with agreed with that assessment. >>>
I'm not disagreeing with your points, however I think you are overstating the negatives involved. I've filed a number of "out of state" small claims over the years and only one that I can recall was unsuccessful...and I never had to showup in court. I filed for the writ of execution after a successful judgement and the sheriff collected the money and it was sent to me.
Still, to expound on what you implied, it takes smart business acumen to realize when and if a small claims suit can be successful. There are too many variables involved for a quick post here, suffice to say that if the OP believes the seller has money and/or assets and the winning suit money can be collected, then it would be foolish in my opinion not to go for it.
Sorry to say if the OP sent a four figure check to someone unreliable and say living in an apartment who could be transient and hard to track down for a writ of execution, then that was the OP's mistake. If the seller has a place of business and/or is a homeowner, then the chances of success are very good - and that to me is what it seems like for this seller based on the information posted.
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such.
<< <i>
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such.
I can agree to that, but if the OP has to involve the courts to get a refund of his money they might not accept meeting of the minds as proof of non receipt. What would happen if the dealer said the OP received his item, and is trying to extort him?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You don't have any type of contract? No invoice >>
there is a contract at least I assume there is a meeting of the minds. The buyer agreed to buy an item. He performed as he has a canceled check. The seller agreed to deliver the item he sold he has not done so he has not performed. There is a contract and it is enforceable as such.
I can agree to that, but if the OP has to involve the courts to get a refund of his money they might not accept meeting of the minds as proof of non receipt. What would happen if the dealer said the OP received his item, and is trying to extort him? >>
then, its up to the buyer to show non-performance. The seller would have to prove he sent the item if he claims he did.
Small claims has a lower threshold of proof the buyer will almost for sure be able to prove non-nonperformance by the seller.
It takes years to find anything in here...
2. Let him know that you are prepared to file charges if you either do not receive the item within 1 week or a certified check for your money back.
Enough is freakin enough!
<< <i>1. Have your attorney send him a formal letter immediately.
2. Let him know that you are prepared to file charges if you either do not receive the item within 1 week or a certified check for your money back.
Enough is freakin enough! >>
I mean absolutely, 100%, no offense to this question, but for #1 above......I hear that so often, but in reality, how many folks, who don't run their own business or aren't crooks, HAVE their own attorney???
The few times I have needed one (getting rear-ended and needing my car fixed and some medical and their insurance company started playing games....), I had to go find one. Not always that easy as many attorneys are too busy, don't want the case for any number of reasons, are unrealistic, etc.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Typical dealer. That's standard operating procedure on their planet. >>
Come on, now! Do you really believe "typical" dealers would do this? Get real!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I would send him a link to this thread and tell him that he will be outed if he doesn't return my money. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I think it's impossible to give good advice without knowing the seller, the item and the price. For example, if QDB is the seller, the item is a temporarily MIA book from his library, and the price is about right, I would not be so quick to unwind the transaction, much less declare war. >>
Bad example. QDB would at least return your phone calls.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
With a nice cc: to your lawyer at the bottom of the page.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
There are lots of ways to square this deal up. Never elevate civil to criminal.
Probably best to forget about the item. Just go for a 2 for 1 reimbursement. At the bourse. In front of everybody if he wants to play it out. Otherwise he owns you. And that is a bad precedent to set .
And link him to this thread. He's the one who is squirrelly unless there is more to this deal than what is written here.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>
<< <i>Typical dealer. That's standard operating procedure on their planet. >>
Come on, now! Do you really believe "typical" dealers would do this? Get real! >>
Some people just love to express their hatred.
<< <i>Some people just love to express their hatred.
My ex-wife was in your shop again? Sorry!