What effect, if any, does die rust have on the grade/perception/market-ability of a coin?

MidLifeCrisis · June 27, 2011 1:39PM

It's a general question, but I realize the effect may be different for different coins. Still, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

By the way, if you do a search for " rust " (with the spaces before and after) you get a few really interesting threads.

JCMhouston · June 27, 2011 1:46PM

To me it has very little effect on grade or desirability. Rusty dies, planchet defects and adjustment marks are all part of collecting early coins.

keyman64 · June 27, 2011 1:58PM

My opinion...if you have two seemingly equal coins sitting next to each other where the only difference was that one was struck with nice clean dies and the other was struck with rusted dies...I would select the one that was struck with rust-free dies. A hypothetical to answer your hypothetical. It seems I'm the crazy person in the room tonight though.

If you are talking about a coin that is very rare and rusted dies just might be a part of that history then it MIGHT be okay if it is minor? I would check a few of your favorite coins via Heritage auction results and try to compare the same coins with the same grade in the same TPG slab during a close time frame and maybe find a few that had rusted dies. You might be able to draw a conclusion by looking at the Fugio since enough of them have sold? My hypothesis would be that the ones struck with rusted dies would hammer for lower prices.

llafoe · June 27, 2011 2:01PM

Makes all the difference in the world for the Confederate Cents!

Unknown · June 27, 2011 2:04PM

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TomB · June 27, 2011 2:18PM

It is my opinion that within the realm of type collecting that it hurts the liquidity of the coin if it is visible with the unaided eye or at least can be seen easily with a low power loupe. This is written because many folks find evidence of die rust to be a negative aspect of eye appeal and, if they do not understand what they are looking at, believe that the coin is overgraded. I don't mind remaining evidence of die rust at all, but am very careful when viewing coins for clients.

MikeInFL · June 27, 2011 4:49PM

As long as it is not overly distracting I don't mind a bit of die rust, but not to the extent of the 1804 LC restrikes.

291fifth · June 27, 2011 7:47PM

My personal experience, based on a rather small sample, is that it makes a coin a tough sell.

I recall an AU 1864-L Indian cent that was struck from rusted dies. It had to be discounted in order to sell. (This was about 10 years ago.)

Today it might be possible to hype the coin on a discussion board and sell it as a "mint error" directly to a collector, but don't expect anything but a tough time if you are trying to sell such a coin to a dealer.

PerryHall · June 27, 2011 8:10PM

Depends on the degree and severity of the die rust. Don't forget that eye appeal is one of the grading factors. If it isn't too severe, I don't mind die rust since it's like a die crack in that it gives the coin character and makes it easy to identify a specific die that a coin was struck with.

ricko · June 27, 2011 9:55PM

My preference would be 'rust free' coins. However, if it were a scarce/rare coin, I could easily accept it. Cheers, RickO

frnklnlvr · June 28, 2011 12:07AM

Anyone got a pic of a coin struck from a rusted die?

JCMhouston · June 28, 2011 12:23AM

Here's an example with quite a few spots of die rust, I don't find it to be a distraction at all. A halfpenny currently in an NGC66RB Holder.

And this one 1773 66BN shows a huge amount of die rust on the obverse.

TPRC · June 28, 2011 12:36AM

To me, it detracts slightly to moderately from a coin's overall eye appeal. Having said that, I certainly have coins struck from rusty dies, including HTT, colonials, and others.

BillJones · June 28, 2011 12:42AM

For the coins that I collect rust on the die is not a major factor UNLESS it is really advanced. As someone else said it's part of collecting older coins and tokens and medals for that matter.

So far as grading goes I don't think that it effects the grading numbers very much until you get above MS-65. Then it does come into play becuase once you get to MS-66 and above, eye appeal should never be an issue. A coin struck from rusty dies can have eye appeal issues. There can also be sharpness of design issues if the dies have been lapped to remove the rust.

1798CentCollector · June 28, 2011 2:11PM

I don't see it as a plus over a "perfect" coin from an eye appeal standpoint. I don't necessarily see it as a negative either, unless advanced or very detracting. I personally think these these types of "detractions" can add character to a coin. If one had to choose, a perfect die state coin is always preferable, IMO. I have examples of early perfect and late die states of early coppers and appreciate the differences of both.

1798 S-164 early die State II

1798 S-164 M-LDS IV with die rust ( left to right across bust and obverse right fields)

CaptHenway · June 28, 2011 2:14PM

I'll take either one of those 1798's and be very happy!
TD

1798CentCollector · June 28, 2011 2:31PM

TD....I've begun to think that collecting examples by early to advanced die state is the sign of an advanced sickness...... me thinks.

morgandollar1878 · June 28, 2011 2:35PM

There are a few years of morgan dollars that had rusted dies to various degrees, and some of them are top 100 and hot 50 VAM's.

Coinosaurus · June 28, 2011 2:57PM

It doesn't look good on high-grade type coins.

Someone posted an MS69 gold coin yesterday. With copper spots! Yes. the coin was absolutely pristine and looked like it was soaked in luster, indeed it was one of those coins that should not exist, but at that level everything should be perfect, including the alloy.

It's like that guy who pitched a perfect game and the umpire screwed up the call on the last out. Goodbye perfect game. In order to have a perfect game you also have to have perfect officiating.

Back to the point at hand - there should be no distractions, even mint made ones, on ultra-high grade type. Other folks can disagree but this buyer will avoid it.

1798CentCollector · June 28, 2011 3:47PM

Here's an example of a terminal die state 1798 S-167. advanced obverse and reverse die cracks, CUDs, LDS flowlines.... This is case (although not related to die rust) where I'd much rather have an example of this die state for the variety any day than a perfect die state example. It can go both ways...eye appeal and coolness can at times traverse distractions......and to boot, in many cases these types of diagnostics help to easily distinguish die varieties.....

ambro51 · June 28, 2011 10:25PM

Lots of southern gold shows die rust. This happened because coining runs were spread out over the calender year, and storage was slipshod in an uncontrolled humid climate.

this 1853 O shows extensive rust.

I think this is "mint made" and shouldnt affect marketability of a coin.

PerryHall · June 28, 2011 11:22PM

<< <i>Lots of southern gold shows die rust. This happened because coining runs were spread out over the calender year, and storage was slipshod in an uncontrolled humid climate.

this 1853 O shows extensive rust.

I think this is "mint made" and shouldnt affect marketability of a coin.

>>

I think that is severe die erosion rather than die rust which is fairly common on New Orleans mint coins due to the high humidity there.

What effect, if any, does die rust have on the grade/perception/market-ability of a coin?

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