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POLL Is buying gold and silver for way under melt a crime?
slipgate
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I'd just like to see where everyone stands on this issue. Comment if you like.
I think it is a crime and legislation is needed to protect the public from con-men like the hotel buyers.
I think it is a crime and legislation is needed to protect the public from con-men like the hotel buyers.
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I think we should have legislation to protect automobile owners from being way overcharged for car repairs on the unsuspecting public. Will it happen? No. Just like it will not happen when it comes to any form of collectible or bullion.
<< <i>I'd just like to see where everyone stands on this issue. Comment if you like.
I think it is a crime and legislation is needed to protect the public from con-men like the hotel buyers. >>
What profit will be allowed to buyers? You didn't specify.
I get so tired of hearing "do your homework", "do your research and be knowledgeable", etc.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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What needs to be done is...the current laws need to be enforced. We've heard that before in this country. And I will say it in regard to this particular small non-violent crime. There is a law already. We don't need any more legislation. We need our current laws to be enforced. That is all.
Theft by swindling, I should clarify, is making fraudulent statements while knowing the facts, being a professional in bullion buying and making false claims as to the value of an item, and then buying the item for a low ball amount because you have convinced the potential seller that it's not as valuable as it is...equates to theft by swindling.
While we are at it maybe we should limit all profit making adventures? How about the obscene profits folks made on their homes running up to the bubble? Another windfall tax on oil profits. I have the perfect name for it! We can call it Socialism.
<< <i>What's "way"? 10%, 15%, 50%, 90%.
While we are at it maybe we should limit all profit making adventures? How about the obscene profits folks made on their homes running up to the bubble? Another windfall tax on oil profits. I have the perfect name for it! We can call it Socialism. >>
Read the above post. It has nothing to do with profit. It has to do with profit margins exceedingly HIGH because of false and misleading statements made to the potential seller of an item when the buyer is in a professional arena to make appropriate calls as to the ACTUAL WORTH of the value of the item or bullion in question.
<< <i>What's "way"? 10%, 15%, 50%, 90%.
While we are at it maybe we should limit all profit making adventures? How about the obscene profits folks made on their homes running up to the bubble? Another windfall tax on oil profits. I have the perfect name for it! We can call it Socialism. >>
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>What's really funny is...it already is a crime and they call it theft by swindling. It baffles me that the justice system will pick and choose the small fish to fry, but when there are bigger fish, the system just turns its head.
What needs to be done is...the current laws need to be enforced. We've heard that before in this country. And I will say it in regard to this particular small non-violent crime. There is a law already. We don't need any more legislation. We need our current laws to be enforced. That is all.
Theft by swindling, I should clarify, is making fraudulent statements while knowing the facts, being a professional in bullion buying and making false claims as to the value of an item, and then buying the item for a low ball amount because you have convinced the potential seller that it's not as valuable as it is...equates to theft by swindling. >>
This is a good answer. Maybe add to that law some specific penalties for hotel buyer type people. My main point in modifying existing laws or making new laws is to specifically address the hotel buyer types and make them think twice about scamming people.
<< <i>just what we need; more regulation. Is buying a car for way under book value a crime? >>
Yes, if you are in a professional position and you make false and misleading statements to acquire that car for way under book value. Indeed, it can be. And this law has come way before your guys' love of socialism!
Selling $25 worth of coins for $40, who are they kidding, that doesn't even include postage.
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<< <i>Not a crime but it's dishonest and unethical. >>
Yesterday we had the A/C topped up with Freon , it came to $210. $70 for the freon and $140 "service call" which equates to showing up. I hope theres room in the jail after the hotel buyers and mint employees for a few plumbers.
TRUTH
most of these may involve prosecutable crimes under the new regime.
If you bring me the same coin and I tell you it is 1 oz of 24K gold but that I don't want it, don't need it and tell you further that at that moment it is only worth my investing $100 to buy it then if you accept my offer so be it.
<< <i>We need a scan of all "you suck" threads from the PCGS forums over the last seven years,
most of these may involve prosecutable crimes under the new regime. >>
The worst kind of prison is coin prison. All those collectors and dealers talking about the "deals" they bought every day 24/7.
TRUTH
There are times when a buyer can only pay under melt, but not a lot under melt because of the current market. For example years ago I had a client give me 10 k'rands to sell. I took them to the winter FUN show, and most dealers would not buy them. This made no sense because Apartite in South Africa had been over for years, yet the only offer I got was from a large dealer who does a lot with bullion. He paid slightly under melt for them. Looking at the current Gray Sheet, k'rands still bring less than other well known on ounce coins, so the buyer has to pay less too.
You also have to pay less than melt for junk sterling silver. If the stuff is to be smelted that involves a cost, and that must be deducted from the purchase price.
<< <i>Is it dishonest and unethical to pay pennies on the dollar to people selling coins at a garage sale? >>
If somebody brought you an ounce of gold. And you were a professional buyer of gold. And you made the statement that gold was only valued at six-hundred dollars an ounce and you offered them 550 for the gold and they accepted because they accepted you as a professional, you've just committed theft by swindling.
If their prices are marked at a garage sale and they are SELLING IT at that marked price. Fine. They're obviously not professionals at selling their own "junk". We're not talking RIPS or cherry picking here. We are talking the blatant ripping off of people. Prices marked are far different from offers made.
<< <i>You bring me a 24K 1 oz. gold buffalo and I tell you it is actually 10K and 1/2 oz. , mislead you into thinking it is 10K and 1/2 oz. and proceed to buy it for $400 then that is fraud.
If you bring me the same coin and I tell you it is 1 oz of 24K gold but that I don't want it, don't need it and tell you further that at that moment it is only worth my investing $100 to buy it then if you accept my offer so be it. >>
Awesome! Another one who sees the criminal intent!
<< <i>I had to vote "See the results" because none of the answers fit my opinion.
There are times when a buyer can only pay under melt, but not a lot under melt because of the current market. For example years ago I had a client give me 10 k'rands to sell. I took them to the winter FUN show, and most dealers would not buy them. This made no sense because Apartite in South Africa had been over for years, yet the only offer I got was from a large dealer who does a lot with bullion. He paid slightly under melt for them. Looking at the current Gray Sheet, k'rands still bring less than other well known on ounce coins, so the buyer has to pay less too.
You also have to pay less than melt for junk sterling silver. If the stuff is to be smelted that involves a cost, and that must be deducted from the purchase price. >>
Ive always put the unpopularity of krugs down to the fact they are only 91.6 pure,i set out to obtain at least one gold coin from each major issueing country but the krug is one even i avoid for that reason.
Dealer A is in the big city. He/she buys bullion for spot and sells for 5% over spot. No crime here, right?
Dealer B is in a smaller city, but big enough. He/she buys bullion for 5% under spot and sells for 10% over spot. Possible crime here, right?
Dealer C is in a small out of the way town, hundreds of miles from any major city. He/she buys bullion for 20% under spot and sells it for 35% over spot. Definite crime here, right?
Of course, the legislation must exclude any shipping/traveling charges that is needed to complete a transaction because we want the law to be equal for everyone.
TRUTH
People have gotten ripped off forever. If you don't do your homework you are ripe for it.
<< <i>If somebody brought you an ounce of gold. And you were a professional buyer of gold. And you made the statement that gold was only valued at six-hundred dollars an ounce and you offered them 550 for the gold and they accepted because they accepted you as a professional, you've just committed theft by swindling. >>
Do the buyers everybody is complaining about actually claim "gold is valued $600/oz."? Or do they say something along the lines of "we value gold at $600/oz."? Those are two different things.
<< <i>If their prices are marked at a garage sale and they are SELLING IT at that marked price. Fine. They're obviously not professionals at selling their own "junk". We're not talking RIPS or cherry picking here. We are talking the blatant ripping off of people. Prices marked are far different from offers made. >>
I know a garage sale isn't an exact comparison with a hotel buyer but I'm fully convinced that some of the same people who call one a ripoff are perfectly satisfied there's nothing wrong with the other, even though the results are identical.
* If the amount is more than $500, $10,000 in fines and up to 5 years in prison is the penalty.
* For less than $500, but more than $250, the penalty is $3,000 in fines and up to one year in jail.
* For amounts less than $250, the penalty is $1,000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.
<< <i>Theft by swindle charges in Minnesota:
* If the amount is more than $500, $10,000 in fines and up to 5 years in prison is the penalty.
* For less than $500, but more than $250, the penalty is $3,000 in fines and up to one year in jail.
* For amounts less than $250, the penalty is $1,000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail. >>
Enforce that law and there will be no coin dealers left in Minnesota, ...or banks.
TRUTH
<< <i>
<< <i>You bring me a 24K 1 oz. gold buffalo and I tell you it is actually 10K and 1/2 oz. , mislead you into thinking it is 10K and 1/2 oz. and proceed to buy it for $400 then that is fraud.
If you bring me the same coin and I tell you it is 1 oz of 24K gold but that I don't want it, don't need it and tell you further that at that moment it is only worth my investing $100 to buy it then if you accept my offer so be it. >>
Awesome! Another one who sees the criminal intent! >>
I'm sure lots of people can see that.
Ok- so the hotel buyers elect to not make any claims regarding value, and just say "We're paying $X for this." Results- the same. Now what?
<< <i>
<< <i>Theft by swindle charges in Minnesota:
* If the amount is more than $500, $10,000 in fines and up to 5 years in prison is the penalty.
* For less than $500, but more than $250, the penalty is $3,000 in fines and up to one year in jail.
* For amounts less than $250, the penalty is $1,000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail. >>
Enforce that law and there will be no coin dealers left in Minnesota, ...or banks.
TRUTH >>
They already do! I was charged with it a long time ago. And that's why I bring it up on here. And it was for a similar (details withheld) situation to the hotel buyer outfits.
<< <i>Theft by swindle charges in Minnesota:
* If the amount is more than $500, $10,000 in fines and up to 5 years in prison is the penalty.
* For less than $500, but more than $250, the penalty is $3,000 in fines and up to one year in jail.
* For amounts less than $250, the penalty is $1,000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail. >>
The thing is, though,
No matter how many time you try to claim that it is theft by swindle it isn't.
I have never seen ANY hotel buyer ad which claimed that gold was only worth X dollars (while the open market price was 2X or more). I have seen them, however, state that their buy price was X dollars. There is a big difference between the two scenarios. Buyers are perfectly within their rights to offer any buy price they wish as long as they are not making any false claims.
<< <i>Now that the forum is creating federal legislation on coin crime, I have a few points.
Dealer A is in the big city. He/she buys bullion for spot and sells for 5% over spot. No crime here, right?
Dealer B is in a smaller city, but big enough. He/she buys bullion for 5% under spot and sells for 10% over spot. Possible crime here, right?
Dealer C is in a small out of the way town, hundreds of miles from any major city. He/she buys bullion for 20% under spot and sells it for 35% over spot. Definite crime here, right?
Of course, the legislation must exclude any shipping/traveling charges that is needed to complete a transaction because we want the law to be equal for everyone.
TRUTH >>
Wow - you and soem others are TOTALLY missing the point about disclosure. If you tell someone that you are giving them $100 for something that is worth $1500, and they still agree to sell, I have no problems with it. Why are so many people against disclosure? If the hotel buyers business model is one that you employ, then I could understand your resistance to disclosure since it would put you out of business. But if it is not something you do, why be against it?
Are you so close minded that you can't think outside the box for one moment and see this argument is aimed at the hotel buyer types? And as someone else stated, there are already laws on the books making what the hotel buyers do a crime. Enforce those laws and aggressively go after those that break it. Have raids on the hotel buyers. Send in undercover agents and bring them down.
It's not a matter of missing the point, it's just you don't know what you are talking about.
Unless you have a business and deal with people on a regular basis, you will never understand. You can educate everyone, blast it on TV and the newspaper, and still it comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE. I have seen many tellers at banks take silver coins across the counter. The banks have a duty to disclose, but the client still trades the silver at face for currency. That's the way it is, for coins, for cars, for collectibles. PERSONAL CHOICE.
TRUTH
<< <i>If you tell someone that you are giving them $100 for something that is worth $1500... >>
Ok- so $1500 is the best price you know of that is being paid. Not every buyer is going to be a buyer at that level. And you can't really be sure somebody, somewhere isn't paying $1600, can you? Yes, $100 is less than $1500. So is $500, and $1000, and $1400. Where in the continuum from $100 to $1500 do you cross the line? Suppose, for argument's sake, it is determined to be $1000. If $1000 is an acceptable amount to pay, why should $999 be criminal?
<< <i>Wow - you and soem others are TOTALLY missing the point about disclosure.
It's not a matter of missing the point, it's just you don't know what you are talking about.
Unless you have a business and deal with people on a regular basis, you will never understand. You can educate everyone, blast it on TV and the newspaper, and still it comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE. I have seen many tellers at banks take silver coins across the counter. The banks have a duty to disclose, but the client still trades the silver at face for currency. That's the way it is, for coins, for cars, for collectibles. PERSONAL CHOICE.
TRUTH >>
Perhaps I don't.
I have always lived my life being totally honest with people. A lie by ommission is just as bad as any other lie. I choose not to live my life this way. I would never and could never look someone in the face, lie to them, steal from them, and go on living as if nothing is wrong. I pity those that do.
I think the saddest thing here is that so many people think it is ok to ripoff someone by failing to disclose vital information under the guise of "the seller should inform themselves". That speaks volumes. Your parents would be so proud.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow - you and soem others are TOTALLY missing the point about disclosure.
It's not a matter of missing the point, it's just you don't know what you are talking about.
Unless you have a business and deal with people on a regular basis, you will never understand. You can educate everyone, blast it on TV and the newspaper, and still it comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE. I have seen many tellers at banks take silver coins across the counter. The banks have a duty to disclose, but the client still trades the silver at face for currency. That's the way it is, for coins, for cars, for collectibles. PERSONAL CHOICE.
TRUTH >>
Perhaps I don't.
I have always lived my life being totally honest with people. A lie by ommission is just as bad as any other lie. I choose not to live my life this way. I would never and could never look someone in the face, lie to them, steal from them, and go on living as if nothing is wrong. I pity those that do.
I think the saddest thing here is that so many people think it is ok to ripoff someone by failing to disclose vital information under the guise of "the seller should inform themselves". That speaks volumes. Your parents would be so proud. >>
There is a difference between illegal and unethical. Stating the fact that something is not a crime in no way implies that one thinks the act is ethical.
<< <i>There is a difference between illegal and unethical. Stating the fact that something is not a crime in no way implies that one thinks the act is ethical. >>
This appears to be a difficult concept for some people to accept. There are posts here daily, where the expressed opinion is "If you don't publicly denounce *whatever*, that means you support *whatever*.
1. Franklin Roosevelt made it illegal for Americans to own common gold coins with heavy penalties for failure to turn gold coins in (true, but not mentioning restrictions were removed in 1974)
2. WE will pay you FULL FACE VALUE and we WON'T TELL THE GOVERNMENT YOU HAD THESE!
In city after city, we were told by law enforcement that since the statements made were TRUE, and there was no requirement to pay ANY MINIMIMUM amount for ANYTHING
(that would be COMMUNISM!!!!) anyone was free to offer any buying price, and any seller was free to accept or refuse those prices, and it was the SELLER'S
responsibility to shop around for the best price. Anyone wishing to "protect the public" could run their own ads and offer higher prices.
Unethical doesn't generally mean a crime is committed.
<< <i>I'd just like to see where everyone stands on this issue. Comment if you like.
I think it is a crime and legislation is needed to protect the public from con-men like the hotel buyers. >>
You want the governement setting "minimum coin buying prices" and if you cherry pick something, you go to jail?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>You want the governement setting "minimum coin buying prices" and if you cherry pick something, you go to jail? >>
I'd guess cherrypicking will still be okay as long as it's dealers getting cherrypicked.
on the premise that the American people are too stupid to own it?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Read the above post by Devious.... then understand what the hotel buyers do.... they post the range of prices they will pay. So far... NOTHING ILLEGAL. Now, if they mislead an individual about the worth (not stating what they are willing to pay - but stating the value of the piece)... they enter into fraud. Other than that, they have a lucrative business because people are willing to sell at their prices.
Cheers, RickO