<< <i>Why the silence? Who is silent? Does every dealer need to rant like Laura? She's doing enough for everyone. We all do our part, but in a positive way. The use of fear-mongering to stop coin doctoring will back-fire and destroy collector confidence instead. Promote CAC, since that is a positive way to combat doctoring and overgrading abuses. Playing a MaCarthyist game of outing those who are silent as secretly condoning coin doctoring is misguided and wrong. >>
PNG is silent. PNG was moving towards having a voice but then then changed their mind. Many posters here have expressed an interest in the PNG taking a stand to protect collectors from doctoring; however, it appears this has not happened. I think collector confidence would be increased if PNG participated in the discussion. See more on this below.
Contrary to the fear that discussion of doctoring would decrease collector confidence, it appears that talking about doctoring has not only not hurt Legend's collector confidence level, but, in fact, the frank discussion may do the opposite and increase confidence level in working with Legend.
Finally, there's no need for dealers to fear McCarthyism. First, can there be fear if dealers are openly saying submitting doctored coins is acceptable on these forums and this thread? Secondly, can it be McCarthyism if they are the majority and not the minority
can it be McCarthyism if they are the majority and not the minority
Numbers don't matter. Using fear-mongering tactics against a generic group (coin dealers) that you cannot individually label as coin doctors except by their own admission is McCarthyism.
The PNG can't do anything about B&M shop owners, eBay sellers and vest-pocket upgraders who I believe are the main culprits. (with the exception of those here on this forum, of course)
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS./b]
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS. >>
It's easy to bet when there's no money to put up I don't remember because I didn't recognize the names. Threads have a way of disappearing as I mentioned which you're free to debate. Frankly, the names aren't important enough for me to remember. I have bigger fish to fry
So you can call BS, but that won't really get you anywhere. As I said, this is just the best of my recollection.
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS. >>
It's easy to bet when there's no money to put up I don't remember because I didn't recognize the names and have a habit of disappearing as I mentioned.
So you can call BS, but this is just the best of my recollection. >>
Right...I think you're just barking too.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>Will more competent coin dealers lead to less doctoring:
<< If we had more competent coin dealers, then there would be LESS doctoring allowed. >>
or more doctoring?
<< The sadest part about the coin docs (at least the older ones)-they actually are ones who really DO know coins the best. >>
As she notes, there does seem to be a reluctance for virtually all dealers to deal with doctoring, at least publicly. It's the elephant in the living room. >>
But I don't eat up the propaganda like you and then regurgitate it over "virtually all dealers". You may want to start thinking for yourself.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>Will more competent coin dealers lead to less doctoring:
<< If we had more competent coin dealers, then there would be LESS doctoring allowed. >>
or more doctoring?
<< The sadest part about the coin docs (at least the older ones)-they actually are ones who really DO know coins the best. >>
As she notes, there does seem to be a reluctance for virtually all dealers to deal with doctoring, at least publicly. It's the elephant in the living room. >>
But I don't eat up the propaganda like you and then regurgitate it over "virtually all dealers". You may want to start thinking for yourself. >>
I'm willing to be proven wrong. Which dealers are openly talking about doctoring?
Mowgli - who is no medical professional - was referring to passing the test to be a doctor when I was talking about passing the boards. I didn't meant board certified but I appreciate the correction.
I am not a coin doctor. I do not advocate coin doctoring. Apparently I am just "incredibly stupid".
I should have said that Laura is 100% correct and these coin doctors need to be put in jail. That would have fixed the problem like most whining does.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
<< <i>Mowgli - who is no medical professional - was referring to passing the test to be a doctor when I was talking about passing the boards. I didn't meant board certified but I appreciate the correction.
I am not a coin doctor. I do not advocate coin doctoring. Apparently I am just "incredibly stupid".
I should have said that Laura is 100% correct and these coin doctors need to be put in jail. That would have fixed the problem like most whining does. >>
Mowgli, I said nothing personal and I meant it.
Your post came off stupid imo because you sounded like you gave reasons to advocate coin doctoring.
I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Mowgli, I said nothing personal and I meant it.
Your post came off stupid imo because you sounded like you gave reasons to advocate coin doctoring.
I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too. >>
I don't always translate what's in my head to paper very clearly. I wasn't advocating coin doctoring at all - I was trying to state why we have it and why it is not going to go away. Today, at the moment, it is a fact of life in coin collecting and will be for as long as people continue to profit from doing it. The forces of economics are more powerful than our moral outrage. We are likely to have more impact learning how to recognize or catch doctored coins than success at eliminating doctoring or catching the coin doctors. In some cases coin doctors will be so good at what they do that we won't know they did it. We think the TPGs can catch this stuff but there is enough anecdotal stories on these boards to show that what is NT one day could be AT the next or visa versa.
I just think we need to be more pragmatic about this problem. We have known for 1000s of years that stealing is wrong, we punish them for it and yet they still do it. Is coin doctoring going to be any different?
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
<< <i>Question: Should a member of PNG be expelled ( for starters) who knowlingly commit unethical or fradulent behavior?
Quite possibly, but I'd still want to decide such things on a case by case basis. After all, virtually all human beings have knowingly committed at least one "unethical or fraudulent" act in their lives. >>
Speak for yourself. I am probably older than you, have never committed any such act, be it in my private or personal life. I value my good name too much to even consider that sort of thing.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable".
The issue with doctoring that Legend and many other people share is the doctoring of puttying, greasing or any of those other terms that covers up blemishes or marks on a coin in order to get a "problem" coin into "non problem" holder.
Taking a coin that has been cleaned and Artificially toning it to cover the hairlines- or puttying a coin so that it grades higher or at all is the big issue.
As an example- if you were to buy a car that was brand new, lets say you would pay $20,000. Would you also pay $20,000 for a car that was in a totaling accident and had to get much of the body replaced and then have the mileage spun backwards so that the odometer reads 0? Somehow I think not.
What about a piece of art that was valued at $20,000. It then is shredded up, dipped in water to erase the color and then drawn on. Now somebody goes and tapes the whole thing back together, recolors in what was lost and gets rid of all the extra graffiti. Would that piece still be worth $20,000?
The same goes for coins.
When a coin is original it is worth say $20,000 in ms70 and goes down in value as the grade goes down. "turning the odometer" backwards (I.e. doctoring) so that it appears its newer then it actually is- and then selling it as if its "a fresh car off the lot" is nothing but fraud.
Kudos to laura for continuing to stand up for what she believes in and speaking out against something thats destroying our hobby.
<< <i>The issue with doctoring that Legend and many other people share is the doctoring of puttying, greasing or any of those other terms that covers up blemishes or marks on a coin in order to get a "problem" coin into "non problem" holder.
Taking a coin that has been cleaned and Artificially toning it to cover the hairlines- or puttying a coin so that it grades higher or at all is the big issue.
As an example- if you were to buy a car that was brand new, lets say you would pay $20,000. Would you also pay $20,000 for a car that was in a totaling accident and had to get much of the body replaced and then have the mileage spun backwards so that the odometer reads 0? Somehow I think not.
What about a piece of art that was valued at $20,000. It then is shredded up, dipped in water to erase the color and then drawn on. Now somebody goes and tapes the whole thing back together, recolors in what was lost and gets rid of all the extra graffiti. Would that piece still be worth $20,000?
The same goes for coins.
When a coin is original it is worth say $20,000 in ms70 and goes down in value as the grade goes down. "turning the odometer" backwards (I.e. doctoring) so that it appears its newer then it actually is- and then selling it as if its "a fresh car off the lot" is nothing but fraud.
Kudos to laura for continuing to stand up for what she believes in and speaking out against something thats destroying our hobby. >>
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
McCarthy was a lot more right than wrong, hence a bad analogy to bring up here.
There's PLENTY of thieves that need to be dealt with. I can tell you about being contacted by customers ( elderly ) of other coin companies who have been ripped off for their "life savings" ( 2 in the last month ) and others who are facing serious litigation as well as a visit from the FTC, State Attornies etc.
<< <i>McCarthy was a lot more right than wrong, hence a bad analogy to bring up here.
There's PLENTY of thieves that need to be dealt with. I can tell you about being contacted by customers ( elderly ) of other coin companies who have been ripped off for their "life savings" ( 2 in the last month ) and others who are facing serious litigation as well as a visit from the FTC, State Attornies etc.
You'll be reading about one of them soon. >>
Are they forum members? This should be good for a thread with a few hundred posts.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Do you think the PNG are doing an adequate job policing their members and if not what would you suggest to the members of the guild?
Are they doing "an adequate job policing their members"? That completely depends on your perspective. As for the PNG's perspective, I'm not convinced that they have a clear vision of their role in the market, and I don't know if they are satisfied with the current situation.
What would I suggest that they do? Speaking as a member, but certainly not speaking for the organization, I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? That would need to be addressed on a case by case basis, with the primary consideration being whether the dealer's behavior was clearly unethical or fraudulent. (Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent.) >>
As always Andy, I enjoy your thoughtful comments which I also find to be accurate. But don't you agree that PNG has been largely an impotent, if not incompetent, organization to date both in (1) identifying their role of policing their members, and (2) taking a stand against coin doctors? If as you said so well, PNG developed policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold, wouldn't that be a good thing for collectors and dealers? IMO, until PNG makes a move like that, the organization as a whole adds no benefit to the coin community. In fact, it might be an overall detraction to the coin community since it creates a false sense of security to collectors.
don't you agree that PNG has been largely an impotent, if not incompetent, organization to date both in (1) identifying their role of policing their members, and (2) taking a stand against coin doctors?
I would say that they could be doing a better job, they must know it, and they probably intend to do something about it.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable". >>
I don't believe that CAC considers any coin that it may have inadvertantly stickered that has shown to be doctored as market acceptable. I know of at least one instance where JA sought out the coin and bought it back in order to remove the sticker once he became convinced the coin had been altered
To my knowledge, said coin still resides in the TPG holder as it had indeed become 'market acceptable' in their eyes.
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable". >>
I don't believe that CAC considers any coin that it may have inadvertantly stickered that has shown to be doctored as market acceptable. I know of at least one instance where JA sought out the coin and bought it back in order to remove the sticker once he became convinced the coin had been altered
To my knowledge, said coin still resides in the TPG holder as it had indeed become 'market acceptable' in their eyes. >>
Thanks Bruce. It's important and good to know that doctored coins are still not CAC-acceptable.
The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why???
Laura outted at last two real coin docs over a year ago. I heard one of them (not because of her) but because of all the other pressure actually retired.
Sipping tea and having lunch to say please stop will not work with these preditors. I think Laura has it really right.
<< <i>The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why??? >>
Hasn't PNG expelled members in the past?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why??? >>
Hasn't PNG expelled members in the past? >>
Most certainly. One has to stay current with one's dues! >>
I meant expelled for unethical behavior. I don't doubt that a few dropped their membership after they discovered that the PNG was unnecessary for the health and success of their business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>members should demand to do the right thing.
The tricky part is figuring out what the "right thing" is, of course. >>
It isn't difficult at all, Andy. To me, it seems that you, like many others, are just fine with how things are now and don't want to rock the boat. I have been protected because I had a mentor point me in the right direction when I got back into numismatics quite some time ago. Many others, however, are not as fortunate as I have been.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
It seems like one area that could be clarified is the types of doctoring we are talking about. While there is disagreement on what actions should be revealed to TPGs, collectors, and others; perhaps we can start with a working list of techniques and people can comment on each technique, whether it should be disclosed or not. This would provide at least two things, (1) help educate people about the types of doctoring available (2) come to agreement or at least understanding on why certain people object and others support specific techniques.
Here's a starter list:
- Putty - Laser - Artificial frost
It would be interesting to see if the PNG could maintain a list of doctoring techniques and provide recommendations on their members for each type. For example, for each technique, they could have a recommendation:
- PNG Members are recommended not to do this activity - PNG Members may do this activity if disclosed - PNG Members may do this activity without disclosure
This way we can move the discussion forward.
For example, Andy wrote:
<< <i>I do not think that every case of "submitting doctored coins to the TPG's" is "unethical and fraudulent". >>
What are some example cases of doctoring which may be considered "ethical and above board" and some that could be considered "unethical and fraudulent?" Let's build a list and have a discussion.
Perhaps this could start off as a CU Forums List to get it going. Then we could see if the PNG, ANA, or another organization wanted to get involved.
this seems to be getting old, and somewhere on her computer there is a spell check function. Maybe her biggest supporter can show her how to use it.
maybe Legend should begin filing lawsuits against the alleged doctors and show proof- instead of pushing half of you into a frenzy.
Legend has not taken any actions that would make me want to join in on the fight - talk the talk
start doin the walk- put up or stop. >>
Legend worked closely with John Albanese when he started CAC ... one of which's main goals was to put an end to the free trade of doctored coins in holders. What have YOU done?
As the days go by, and I read the blogs and the articles, I become more and more glad that I don't have the money to have to worry about this stuff.
I'll stick to cherrypicking.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>Seems to me that doing nothing is condoning how things are....
TDN - I'm all ears. What would you suggest that I do to solve the problem? And while we're at it, what exactly would you like the PNG to do? >>
I suggest that you lobby the PNG to take a stand. I suggest that you pledge not to do business with known coin docs. I suggest that you run for the Board of PNG on an anti doctoring platform. I suggest that you request those you do biz with do the same.
I suggest that the PNG adopt a suspension policy for those implicated with submitting doctored material. I suggest they adopt a very strong anti doctoring platform. I suggest that they request known coin docs to leave the group.
1) I think dealers should help educate consumers, not just sell them coins. This should wind up generating a reputable dealer more business.
My mentor, when evaluating a potential purchase, tells me what he did and did not like about a coin, and why. He explained and showed me examples of what toning on a 1919 P SLQ was natural, and what was to be avoided. Dealers I trust will gladly do the same in evaluating a potential purchase, even though they won't see a nickel from it. Note, I am careful not to abuse this professional courtesy.
2) Numismatics is a small world. Every dealer of any size knows who is and who is not doctoring coins. I have been told by people I trust in the industry whom to avoid. Not coincidentally, they all point fingers at the same culprits. I have looked at a number of coins sold by said allegedly guilty parties. It was an education
If dealers educated their clients of what to look for in a coin, and occasionally looked at a potential purchase from someone else for a client as a professional courtesy, this may help to steer collectors away from the more expensive doctored coins, without "naming names."
It won't happen overnight, but at least these are steps in the right direction. Zoins had a few other ideas as well. To do nothing is to be part of the problem.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Comments
<< <i>Why the silence? Who is silent? Does every dealer need to rant like Laura? She's doing enough for everyone. We all do our part, but in a positive way. The use of fear-mongering to stop coin doctoring will back-fire and destroy collector confidence instead. Promote CAC, since that is a positive way to combat doctoring and overgrading abuses. Playing a MaCarthyist game of outing those who are silent as secretly condoning coin doctoring is misguided and wrong. >>
PNG is silent. PNG was moving towards having a voice but then then changed their mind. Many posters here have expressed an interest in the PNG taking a stand to protect collectors from doctoring; however, it appears this has not happened. I think collector confidence would be increased if PNG participated in the discussion. See more on this below.
Contrary to the fear that discussion of doctoring would decrease collector confidence, it appears that talking about doctoring has not only not hurt Legend's collector confidence level, but, in fact, the frank discussion may do the opposite and increase confidence level in working with Legend.
Finally, there's no need for dealers to fear McCarthyism. First, can there be fear if dealers are openly saying submitting doctored coins is acceptable on these forums and this thread? Secondly, can it be McCarthyism if they are the majority and not the minority
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<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is she afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out?
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<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. Threads have a way of disappearing here.
Numbers don't matter. Using fear-mongering tactics against a generic group (coin dealers) that you cannot individually label as coin doctors except by their own admission is McCarthyism.
The PNG can't do anything about B&M shop owners, eBay sellers and vest-pocket upgraders who I believe are the main culprits. (with the exception of those here on this forum, of course)
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<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS./b]
<< <i>
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<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS. >>
It's easy to bet when there's no money to put up
So you can call BS, but that won't really get you anywhere. As I said, this is just the best of my recollection.
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<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening.... >>
And her complaining is boring me. I remember a famous movie quote that goes something like this..
"Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?"
Out a dealer, what is he afraid of. She has the truth. lots of money and popular support on her side. >>
Actually, I believe she has outed a dealer, two even
I'm assuming she stopped only after receiving some legal guidance. So I'd say she walked the talk on that one. >>
Ok, who did she out? >>
I don't remember the names. It was on these forums several years ago when she still posted here. It wasn't important enough for me to save the thread and threads here have a way of disappearing. >>
Of course you don't remember. And of course she stopped by the advice of legal council. You could be telling the truth, but I'm betting on BS. >>
It's easy to bet when there's no money to put up
So you can call BS, but this is just the best of my recollection. >>
Right...I think you're just barking too.
<< <i>I think you're just barking too. >>
I'm just hanging out on a chat board, like you
<< <i>Will more competent coin dealers lead to less doctoring:
<< If we had more competent coin dealers, then there would be LESS doctoring allowed. >>
or more doctoring?
<< The sadest part about the coin docs (at least the older ones)-they actually are ones who really DO know coins the best. >>
As she notes, there does seem to be a reluctance for virtually all dealers to deal with doctoring, at least publicly. It's the elephant in the living room. >>
But I don't eat up the propaganda like you and then regurgitate it over "virtually all dealers". You may want to start thinking for yourself.
<< <i>
<< <i>Will more competent coin dealers lead to less doctoring:
<< If we had more competent coin dealers, then there would be LESS doctoring allowed. >>
or more doctoring?
<< The sadest part about the coin docs (at least the older ones)-they actually are ones who really DO know coins the best. >>
As she notes, there does seem to be a reluctance for virtually all dealers to deal with doctoring, at least publicly. It's the elephant in the living room. >>
But I don't eat up the propaganda like you and then regurgitate it over "virtually all dealers". You may want to start thinking for yourself. >>
I'm willing to be proven wrong. Which dealers are openly talking about doctoring?
I am not a coin doctor. I do not advocate coin doctoring. Apparently I am just "incredibly stupid".
I should have said that Laura is 100% correct and these coin doctors need to be put in jail. That would have fixed the problem like most whining does.
<< <i>Mowgli - who is no medical professional - was referring to passing the test to be a doctor when I was talking about passing the boards. I didn't meant board certified but I appreciate the correction.
I am not a coin doctor. I do not advocate coin doctoring. Apparently I am just "incredibly stupid".
I should have said that Laura is 100% correct and these coin doctors need to be put in jail. That would have fixed the problem like most whining does. >>
Mowgli, I said nothing personal and I meant it.
Your post came off stupid imo because you sounded like you gave reasons to advocate coin doctoring.
I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too. >>
Dude, I'd say quit while you're behind...
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too. >>
Dude, I'd say quit while you're behind...
Sure I will take your advice , its just that we coin junkies sometimes just make big fools of ourselves.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Mowgli, I said nothing personal and I meant it.
Your post came off stupid imo because you sounded like you gave reasons to advocate coin doctoring.
I am not about personally attacking people.
I say stupid stuff too. >>
I don't always translate what's in my head to paper very clearly. I wasn't advocating coin doctoring at all - I was trying to state why we have it and why it is not going to go away. Today, at the moment, it is a fact of life in coin collecting and will be for as long as people continue to profit from doing it. The forces of economics are more powerful than our moral outrage. We are likely to have more impact learning how to recognize or catch doctored coins than success at eliminating doctoring or catching the coin doctors. In some cases coin doctors will be so good at what they do that we won't know they did it. We think the TPGs can catch this stuff but there is enough anecdotal stories on these boards to show that what is NT one day could be AT the next or visa versa.
I just think we need to be more pragmatic about this problem. We have known for 1000s of years that stealing is wrong, we punish them for it and yet they still do it. Is coin doctoring going to be any different?
Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. And it should be simple to do if I am.
<< <i>Yeah, I kind of figured you wouldn't be able to prove that simple statement wrong
I think I proved that you don't get it, quite well.
I wrote it seems virtually all dealers do not wish to talk about doctoring in the open.
Apparently, you disagree with this and you asked me to open my eyes.
I wrote, ok, if I'm wrong, which dealers talk about doctoring in the open? If they are talking in the open, it shouldn't be hard.
I actually prefer to be wrong in this case, but I'm still waiting....
<< <i>Question: Should a member of PNG be expelled
( for starters) who knowlingly commit unethical or fradulent behavior?
Quite possibly, but I'd still want to decide such things on a case by case basis. After all, virtually all human beings have knowingly committed at least one "unethical or fraudulent" act in their lives. >>
Speak for yourself. I am probably older than you, have never committed any such act, be it in my private or personal life. I value my good name too much to even consider that sort of thing.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable".
The issue with doctoring that Legend and many other people share is the doctoring of puttying, greasing or any of those other terms that covers up blemishes or marks on a coin in order to get a "problem" coin into "non problem" holder.
Taking a coin that has been cleaned and Artificially toning it to cover the hairlines- or puttying a coin so that it grades higher or at all is the big issue.
As an example- if you were to buy a car that was brand new, lets say you would pay $20,000. Would you also pay $20,000 for a car that was in a totaling accident and had to get much of the body replaced and then have the mileage spun backwards so that the odometer reads 0? Somehow I think not.
What about a piece of art that was valued at $20,000. It then is shredded up, dipped in water to erase the color and then drawn on.
Now somebody goes and tapes the whole thing back together, recolors in what was lost and gets rid of all the extra graffiti. Would that piece still be worth $20,000?
The same goes for coins.
When a coin is original it is worth say $20,000 in ms70 and goes down in value as the grade goes down. "turning the odometer" backwards (I.e. doctoring) so that it appears its newer then it actually is- and then selling it as if its "a fresh car off the lot" is nothing but fraud.
Kudos to laura for continuing to stand up for what she believes in and speaking out against something thats destroying our hobby.
<< <i>The issue with doctoring that Legend and many other people share is the doctoring of puttying, greasing or any of those other terms that covers up blemishes or marks on a coin in order to get a "problem" coin into "non problem" holder.
Taking a coin that has been cleaned and Artificially toning it to cover the hairlines- or puttying a coin so that it grades higher or at all is the big issue.
As an example- if you were to buy a car that was brand new, lets say you would pay $20,000. Would you also pay $20,000 for a car that was in a totaling accident and had to get much of the body replaced and then have the mileage spun backwards so that the odometer reads 0? Somehow I think not.
What about a piece of art that was valued at $20,000. It then is shredded up, dipped in water to erase the color and then drawn on.
Now somebody goes and tapes the whole thing back together, recolors in what was lost and gets rid of all the extra graffiti. Would that piece still be worth $20,000?
The same goes for coins.
When a coin is original it is worth say $20,000 in ms70 and goes down in value as the grade goes down. "turning the odometer" backwards (I.e. doctoring) so that it appears its newer then it actually is- and then selling it as if its "a fresh car off the lot" is nothing but fraud.
Kudos to laura for continuing to stand up for what she believes in and speaking out against something thats destroying our hobby. >>
There's PLENTY of thieves that need to be dealt with. I can tell you about being contacted by customers ( elderly ) of other coin companies who have been ripped off for their "life savings" ( 2 in the last month ) and others who are facing serious litigation as well as a visit from the FTC, State Attornies etc.
You'll be reading about one of them soon.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>McCarthy was a lot more right than wrong, hence a bad analogy to bring up here.
There's PLENTY of thieves that need to be dealt with. I can tell you about being contacted by customers ( elderly ) of other coin companies who have been ripped off for their "life savings" ( 2 in the last month ) and others who are facing serious litigation as well as a visit from the FTC, State Attornies etc.
You'll be reading about one of them soon. >>
Are they forum members? This should be good for a thread with a few hundred posts.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Do you think the PNG are doing an adequate job policing their members and if not what would you suggest to the members of the guild?
Are they doing "an adequate job policing their members"? That completely depends on your perspective. As for the PNG's perspective, I'm not convinced that they have a clear vision of their role in the market, and I don't know if they are satisfied with the current situation.
What would I suggest that they do? Speaking as a member, but certainly not speaking for the organization, I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? That would need to be addressed on a case by case basis, with the primary consideration being whether the dealer's behavior was clearly unethical or fraudulent. (Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent.) >>
As always Andy, I enjoy your thoughtful comments which I also find to be accurate. But don't you agree that PNG has been largely an impotent, if not incompetent, organization to date both in (1) identifying their role of policing their members, and (2) taking a stand against coin doctors? If as you said so well, PNG developed policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold, wouldn't that be a good thing for collectors and dealers? IMO, until PNG makes a move like that, the organization as a whole adds no benefit to the coin community. In fact, it might be an overall detraction to the coin community since it creates a false sense of security to collectors.
Tom
I would say that they could be doing a better job, they must know it, and they probably intend to do something about it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable".
I don't believe that CAC considers any coin that it may have inadvertantly stickered that has shown to be doctored as market acceptable. I know of at least one instance where JA sought out the coin and bought it back in order to remove the sticker once he became convinced the coin had been altered
To my knowledge, said coin still resides in the TPG holder as it had indeed become 'market acceptable' in their eyes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Keyman - I've seen plenty of high four and five figure coins which imo have been doctored and also in first world holders. Occasionally, but not often, I've seen them with a green sticker. >>
I had a conversation with someone not too long ago about both points you make. These coins have become "market acceptable".
I don't believe that CAC considers any coin that it may have inadvertantly stickered that has shown to be doctored as market acceptable. I know of at least one instance where JA sought out the coin and bought it back in order to remove the sticker once he became convinced the coin had been altered
To my knowledge, said coin still resides in the TPG holder as it had indeed become 'market acceptable' in their eyes. >>
Thanks Bruce. It's important and good to know that doctored coins are still not CAC-acceptable.
Laura outted at last two real coin docs over a year ago. I heard one of them (not because of her) but because of all the other pressure actually retired.
Sipping tea and having lunch to say please stop will not work with these preditors. I think Laura has it really right.
<< <i>The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why???
Hasn't PNG expelled members in the past?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why???
Hasn't PNG expelled members in the past? >>
Most certainly. One has to stay current with one's dues!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The PNG can tame their own membership. They have not. Wonder why???
Hasn't PNG expelled members in the past? >>
Most certainly. One has to stay current with one's dues!
I meant expelled for unethical behavior. I don't doubt that a few dropped their membership after they discovered that the PNG was unnecessary for the health and success of their business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
All the more reason members should demand to do the right thing.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The tricky part is figuring out what the "right thing" is, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>members should demand to do the right thing.
The tricky part is figuring out what the "right thing" is, of course. >>
It isn't difficult at all, Andy. To me, it seems that you, like many others, are just fine with how things are now and don't want to rock the boat. I have been protected because I had a mentor point me in the right direction when I got back into numismatics quite some time ago. Many others, however, are not as fortunate as I have been.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Here's a starter list:
- Putty
- Laser
- Artificial frost
It would be interesting to see if the PNG could maintain a list of doctoring techniques and provide recommendations on their members for each type. For example, for each technique, they could have a recommendation:
- PNG Members are recommended not to do this activity
- PNG Members may do this activity if disclosed
- PNG Members may do this activity without disclosure
This way we can move the discussion forward.
For example, Andy wrote:
<< <i>I do not think that every case of "submitting doctored coins to the TPG's" is "unethical and fraudulent". >>
What are some example cases of doctoring which may be considered "ethical and above board" and some that could be considered "unethical and fraudulent?" Let's build a list and have a discussion.
Perhaps this could start off as a CU Forums List to get it going. Then we could see if the PNG, ANA, or another organization wanted to get involved.
<< <i>angry bird
MJ >>
this seems to be getting old, and somewhere on her computer there is a spell check function. Maybe her biggest supporter can show her how to use it.
maybe Legend should begin filing lawsuits against the alleged doctors and show proof- instead of pushing half of you into a frenzy.
Legend has not taken any actions that would make me want to join in on the fight - talk the talk
start doin the walk- put up or stop.
<< <i>
<< <i>angry bird
MJ >>
this seems to be getting old, and somewhere on her computer there is a spell check function. Maybe her biggest supporter can show her how to use it.
maybe Legend should begin filing lawsuits against the alleged doctors and show proof- instead of pushing half of you into a frenzy.
Legend has not taken any actions that would make me want to join in on the fight - talk the talk
start doin the walk- put up or stop. >>
Legend worked closely with John Albanese when he started CAC ... one of which's main goals was to put an end to the free trade of doctored coins in holders. What have YOU done?
<The tricky part is figuring out what the "right thing" is, of course. >
It isn't difficult at all, Andy.
Really? Let's hear your plan.
To me, it seems that you, like many others, are just fine with how things are now and don't want to rock the boat.
I'm not "fine with how things are now". I just don't have a viable solution.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> << members should demand to do the right thing. >>
<The tricky part is figuring out what the "right thing" is, of course. >
It isn't difficult at all, Andy.
Really? Let's hear your plan.
To me, it seems that you, like many others, are just fine with how things are now and don't want to rock the boat.
I'm not "fine with how things are now". I just don't have a viable solution. >>
Seems to me that doing nothing is condoning how things are....
TDN - I'm all ears. What would you suggest that I do to solve the problem? And while we're at it, what exactly would you like the PNG to do?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'll stick to cherrypicking.
<< <i>And while we're at it, what exactly would you like the PNG to do? >>
One suggestion is above.
Some examples of ethically submitting doctored coins would be a nice start to get it going.
<< <i>Seems to me that doing nothing is condoning how things are....
TDN - I'm all ears. What would you suggest that I do to solve the problem? And while we're at it, what exactly would you like the PNG to do? >>
I suggest that you lobby the PNG to take a stand. I suggest that you pledge not to do business with known coin docs. I suggest that you run for the Board of PNG on an anti doctoring platform. I suggest that you request those you do biz with do the same.
I suggest that the PNG adopt a suspension policy for those implicated with submitting doctored material. I suggest they adopt a very strong anti doctoring platform. I suggest that they request known coin docs to leave the group.
I suggest that neither of you continue as is.
My mentor, when evaluating a potential purchase, tells me what he did and did not like about a coin, and why. He explained and showed me examples of what toning on a 1919 P SLQ was natural, and what was to be avoided. Dealers I trust will gladly do the same in evaluating a potential purchase, even though they won't see a nickel from it. Note, I am careful not to abuse this professional courtesy.
2) Numismatics is a small world. Every dealer of any size knows who is and who is not doctoring coins. I have been told by people I trust in the industry whom to avoid. Not coincidentally, they all point fingers at the same culprits. I have looked at a number of coins sold by said allegedly guilty parties. It was an education
If dealers educated their clients of what to look for in a coin, and occasionally looked at a potential purchase from someone else for a client as a professional courtesy, this may help to steer collectors away from the more expensive doctored coins, without "naming names."
It won't happen overnight, but at least these are steps in the right direction. Zoins had a few other ideas as well. To do nothing is to be part of the problem.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."