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Justacommeman
Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Walker Proof Digital Album
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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<< If we had more competent coin dealers, then there would be LESS doctoring allowed. >>
or more doctoring?
<< The sadest part about the coin docs (at least the older ones)-they actually are ones who really DO know coins the best. >>
As she notes, there does seem to be a reluctance for virtually all dealers to deal with doctoring, at least publicly. It's the elephant in the living room.
Now, we "chatroom weenies" are supposed to sign a petition? To whom? On what legal grounds?
<< <i>My take: Green stickers apparently haven't solved the problem.
Now, we "chatroom weenies" are supposed to sign a petition? To whom? On what legal grounds? >>
Doesn't she think that most of us here are incompetent too?
She would have no problem outing a dealer who (in her opinion) can't grade, but refuses to identify known coin doctors because she is afraid of getting sued. Paraphrased of couse, but I believe she has made that clear in past reports.
So, it begs the question...what's the difference between the two?
More then dealers that can't grade or spell I really like the ones that can't do math without the assistance of a calculator!
So far, the replies here are going as Legend said the dealers stance on coin doctoring-no where.
I fully agree, coin doctring is crime and the people who do it should go to jail.
Membership In The Guild To join the PNG, a dealer must have experience in the field, must certify that he or she has significant financial worth, and must be elected by a majority of the present members. All the PNG members are subject to the rules and regulations of the Guild, which include an arbitration procedure for resolving disagreements between buyers and sellers of numismatic properties.*
The Professional Numismatists Guild looks forward to many more years of enhancing the field of numismatics through adherence to strict ethical and professional standards, cooperative projects with the American Numismatic Association, educational efforts geared to hobbyists, and other programs to benefit what has rightfully been called the world’s greatest hobby.
You have to admit that the numismatic coin hobby has been GROSSLY affected by coin doctoring. I don't think the doctoring is coming from collectors, is it? No, for the most part its coming from within the ranks of the dealer community.
That F&%@# STINKS.
So much so that any reasonable person has to ask where HAVE been the "professionals" on this subject.........????
It seems that the amount of coin doctoring and 'bad coins' in tpg holders far, far outweighs whatever impact the PNG has had over the years to prevent this behavior as noted in the paragraphs above on their website.
Lets say NO PNG members were guilty of doctoring.
If you were a member of such a prestigious organization that NONE of your members were guilty of such deception at the very least wouldn't you feel outraged and angry at those dealers outside your PNG who did partake in such devious activities?
Wouldn't you as an upright member want to get rid of every wanna be dealer who practices their business in such a way as it discourages and scares away new entrants to the hobby or causes a collector to lose interest in the hobby because they have been repeatedly burned by such coins floatiing around?
Come on the answer is yes......!! You want to get rid of them so that your doing business the right way isn't threatened and the perception by the public won't get you mixed up with the bad guys.
Has the PNG failed to police their own members much less dealers outside their guild ?
When a bad apple is found in my industry they are fired, sued, and held liable for damages. They are gone, out, nada.
I imagine its the same for the various vocational industries most collectors are in.
I am personally amazed that coin professionals do not hold other professionals to high standards. Laura is absolutely right and the professional ranks should join her to expel all bad dealers
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Second - joining the PNG is much like joining the BBB - you just have to pay your dues.
Thirdly - most business groups protect their own unless it becomes a liability to do so.
When people pay outrageous prices for toned coins over non-toned, what do you expect dealers to do?
Will they reject doctored coins or will they sell them - it's business and caveat emptor is going to prevail.
If toned coins didn't bring a premium would there be so much coin doctoring?
What a market wants drives what a dealer sells.
While I can understand her desire to get rid of coin doctoring and the resultant world of undoctored coins, Legend would prosper more with less competition for pretty toned coins. She wants a level playing field for toned coins because Legend wouldn't have to deal with competitors trying to undercut their prices. Less toned coins would drive prices higher and guess who has the undoctored toned coins? If I'm not mistaken, CAC's primary owner is a principal in Legend - how's that for a level playing field?
I have no issues with Laura or Legend at all. But this battle over coin doctoring feels like the war against drugs. The buyers drive the market and if we want tones, undoctored coins, someone will find a way to doctor them so they are undoctored. JMHO
<< <i>First - there are no surgeons who don't pass their boards, otherwise they are not surgeons.
Second - joining the PNG is much like joining the BBB - you just have to pay your dues.
Thirdly - most business groups protect their own unless it becomes a liability to do so.
When people pay outrageous prices for toned coins over non-toned, what do you expect dealers to do?
Will they reject doctored coins or will they sell them - it's business and caveat emptor is going to prevail.
If toned coins didn't bring a premium would there be so much coin doctoring?
What a market wants drives what a dealer sells.
While I can understand her desire to get rid of coin doctoring and the resultant world of undoctored coins, Legend would prosper more with less competition for pretty toned coins. She wants a level playing field for toned coins because Legend wouldn't have to deal with competitors trying to undercut their prices. Less toned coins would drive prices higher and guess who has the undoctored toned coins? If I'm not mistaken, CAC's primary owner is a principal in Legend - how's that for a level playing field?
I have no issues with Laura or Legend at all. But this battle over coin doctoring feels like the war against drugs. The buyers drive the market and if we want tones, undoctored coins, someone will find a way to doctor them so they are undoctored. JMHO >>
Are you a coin doctor? If so your post makes sense.
Nothing personal but if not it sounds incredulously stupid.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>If toned coins didn't bring a premium would there be so much coin doctoring? >>
Yes, AT is often applied to hide damage, not get the toning premium. Additionally, there's putty, lasering and other techniques that are also used to hide damage and do not result in AT.
You might as well say "If undamaged coins didn't bring a premium would there be so much doctoring?"
Legend seems to be the ONLY dealer standing up and fighting the bad guys. Why don't you? Certainly you can't pro artifical toning?
FWIW, despite what people would like to believe, bad apples in the medical field are well-known to other physicians, but are in actuality very difficult to remove from active practice. Unless the physician is conviced of a felony it's pretty tough. It almost requires a string of poor outcomes coupled with a few successful malpractice suits to actually get someone to quit. For every successful malpractice suit there are maybe 20-50 that could have been filed.
..... just sayin'
As much as I would love to see coin doctoring disappear from the face of the earth, I am glad that coin doctoring is not in fact a crime. If it were, I can imagine the police swarming coin shows and questioning (if not arresting) anyone that has a questionable coin in his showcase, or shutting down websites with odd-looking coins, or even freezing the bank accounts of coin dealers that are suspected of baking more potatoes than they can possibly eat.
I'd rather see the market self-police as it now does. And the third and fourth party grading services are doing as good a job of that as anyone else - even the police - could possibly do.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I'd rather see the market self-police as it now does. >>
There actually seems to be very little self-policing right now, which is the problem as Laura points out.
It seems like a lot of dealers would rather have TPGs bear the burden identifying doctored coins with no consequences for, and thus no policing of, the doctors. For most dealers and the doctors it seems like it's see no evil, hear no evil
<< <i>I fully agree, coin doctring is crime and the people who do it should go to jail.
As much as I would love to see coin doctoring disappear from the face of the earth, I am glad that coin doctoring is not in fact a crime. If it were, I can imagine the police swarming coin shows and questioning (if not arresting) anyone that has a questionable coin in his showcase, or shutting down websites with odd-looking coins, or even freezing the bank accounts of coin dealers that are suspected of baking more potatoes than they can possibly eat.
I'd rather see the market self-police as it now does. And the third and fourth party grading services are doing as good a job of that as anyone else - even the police - could possibly do. >>
Hmmmm. Do we now suspect ..... YOU!
Dealers essentially invited the TPGs into the market to police it. In my mind, that's equivalent to self-policing.
As for PNG, they can police their members to maintain the integrity of the organization, but they lack the power the police the market. My impression is that Laura does not understand this.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>There actually seems to be very little self-policing right now, which is the problem as Laura points out. >>
Dealers essentially invited the TPGs into the market to police it. In my mind, that's equivalent to self-policing. >>
It seems a bit disingenuous to call this self-policing since there are no consequences to the doctors. However, it does seem like good way for dealers to absolve themselves of any responsibility.
<< <i>As for PNG, they can police their members to maintain the integrity of the organization, but they lack the willpower to actually police their members. My impression is that Laura does not understand this. >>
Fix that for you
The PNG had a definition of doctoring they were working on and could have temporarily suspended dealers while under investigation as suggested by a few dealers here. Instead, they chose to backpedal and do nothing.
First - there are no surgeons who don't pass their boards, otherwise they are not surgeons.
Mowgli is wrong.
A medical license is required. (Specialty) Board certification is not.
One idea, let's all go back to collecting from circulation for a few years, the doctors will go out of business and our grading skills will improve.
<< <i>I'm confused, if the TPGs with all their experience and resources cannot reliably identify doctoring, how can we proceed? >>
It's easy, buy from a reputable TPG like our host and you'll be protected by their guarantee
<< <i>There actually seems to be very little self-policing right now, which is the problem as Laura points out.
Dealers essentially invited the TPGs into the market to police it. In my mind, that's equivalent to self-policing.
As for PNG, they can police their members to maintain the integrity of the organization, but they lack the power the police the market. My impression is that Laura does not understand this. >>
'As for PNG, they can police their members to maintain the integrity of the organization'
Mr Eureka, I have enjoyed reading your published articles dealing with ethical questions in the Numismatist.
Do you think the PNG are doing an adequate job policing their members and if not what would you suggest to the members of the guild?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>
I fully agree, coin doctring is crime and the people who do it should go to jail. >>
No way. I hate unoriginal coins as much as the next person, but an owner should be free to carve their name in a coin if they choose. I can understand the whole "tampering to deceive the buyer" thing being unethical and that those people should be black listed by buyers, but until it's sold the coin does belong to them. A coin buyer should enter into every transaction with a strong caveat.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
You are WRONG Andy, self policing is NOT working.
If I were to say (or write) that Dealer ABC can't grade, and his business is negatively impacted by those comments (or words), there is the same legal potential. Ask K6AZ (was that his name?) and some other board members here about past dealings. Whether it gets thrown out or not at a later date, there is still a whole bunch of money that goes to lawyers on both sides.
I was not at Baltimore, but did anybody see a petition on Legend's table? I'm sure it would have a much bigger impact than if some of us peons were to start one.
I have no skin in this game, I just find it difficult to understand when people state they KNOW facts but will not share them.
Edit: I guess this means getting off my duff and being an active member of more clubs than just the one that lets me send coins to PCGS for grading.
<< <i>Jail time for coin doctoring? You have got to be kidding! I think Laura needs to take a nice vacation. >>
What about the notion of jail time for coin doctoring with intent to deceive future buyer of that doctored coin?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd rather see the market self-police as it now does. >>
There actually seems to be very little self-policing right now, which is the problem as Laura points out.
It seems like a lot of dealers would rather have TPGs bear the burden identifying doctored coins with no consequences for, and thus no policing of, the doctors. For most dealers and the doctors it seems like it's see no evil, hear no evil
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>For the portion of the market that Laura plays in, PCGS + CAC, I wonder how many doctored coins she has seen in CAC'd PCGS holders. >>
If she ever suspected such a coin she would urge the owner to have JA review it again and if verified as doctored I am not sure but I believe CAC would buy it back and make the owner whole.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>What about the notion of jail time for coin doctoring with intent to deceive future buyer of that doctored coin? >>
Aren't there enough people in jail right now? The US leads the world by a large margin based on the percentage of population currently incarcerated. Is this really something that calls out for jail time? How about just having the defrauder compensate the wronged party and letting it go at that?
Are they doing "an adequate job policing their members"? That completely depends on your perspective. As for the PNG's perspective, I'm not convinced that they have a clear vision of their role in the market, and I don't know if they are satisfied with the current situation.
What would I suggest that they do? Speaking as a member, but certainly not speaking for the organization, I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? That would need to be addressed on a case by case basis, with the primary consideration being whether the dealer's behavior was clearly unethical or fraudulent. (Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the notion of jail time for coin doctoring with intent to deceive future buyer of that doctored coin? >>
Aren't there enough people in jail right now? The US leads the world by a large margin based on the percentage of population currently incarcerated. Is this really something that calls out for jail time? How about just having the defrauder compensate the wronged party and letting it go at that? >>
Not strong enough message to the perpetrators in my view.
I vote jail time and fine to compensate the wronged party.
That will send the right message to everyone involved in the hobby...................its not tolerated.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It's working. Just not well.
The question is, short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? >>
We cannot close Guantanamo until this is resolved.
<< <i>Do you think the PNG are doing an adequate job policing their members and if not what would you suggest to the members of the guild?
Are they doing "an adequate job policing their members"? That completely depends on your perspective. As for the PNG's perspective, I'm not convinced that they have a clear vision of their role in the market, and I don't know if they are satisfied with the current situation.
What would I suggest that they do? Speaking as a member, but certainly not speaking for the organization, I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? That would need to be addressed on a case by case basis, with the primary consideration being whether the dealer's behavior was clearly unethical or fraudulent. (Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent.) >>
Question: Should a member of PNG be expelled
( for starters) who knowlingly commit unethical or fradulent behavior?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
I like that alot.
I encourage you to think up some of those policies Mr Eureka, especially since its your guild and you have written on ethics in the coin hobby.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>short of having everyone buy all of their coins from Legend, what can we do to make things better? >>
We can have more dealers take a stand and speak up against doctoring like Legend
The silence is deafening....
( for starters) who knowlingly commit unethical or fradulent behavior?
Quite possibly, but I'd still want to decide such things on a case by case basis. After all, virtually all human beings have knowingly committed at least one "unethical or fraudulent" act in their lives.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>After all, virtually all dealers have knowingly committed at least one "unethical or fraudulent" doctoring act in their lives. >>
I'm guessing that's what you were really trying to say....
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Do you think the PNG are doing an adequate job policing their members and if not what would you suggest to the members of the guild?
Are they doing "an adequate job policing their members"? That completely depends on your perspective. As for the PNG's perspective, I'm not convinced that they have a clear vision of their role in the market, and I don't know if they are satisfied with the current situation.
What would I suggest that they do? Speaking as a member, but certainly not speaking for the organization, I'd advocate that they focus on promoting their members as the best source for rare coins. Towards that end, I'd (for starters) want to develop policies that would increase the members' degree of responsibility for every coin sold to a retail client. In that way, every member would provide yet one more layer of protection against doctored, overgraded and overpriced coins.
Would I suggest that the PNG expel members that doctor coins? That would need to be addressed on a case by case basis, with the primary consideration being whether the dealer's behavior was clearly unethical or fraudulent. (Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent.) >>
That's a cheap shot. Since Legend deals in certified coins only, it's obvious that what she considers is submitting doctored coins to the TPG's to be unethical and fraudulent. Repair with full disclosure? OK in my book.
Zoins - Thanks for your efforts, but I say what I mean and I don't need an interpreter.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>For the portion of the market that Laura plays in, PCGS + CAC, I wonder how many doctored coins she has seen in CAC'd PCGS holders. >>
If she ever suspected such a coin she would urge the owner to have JA review it again and if verified as doctored I am not sure but I believe CAC would buy it back and make the owner whole. >>
EXACTLY! If CAC was not given the opportunity to buy it back, PCGS would buy it back. For those that try their best to collect quality items in quality holders with quality third party verification, they should be protected. This portion of the hobby should be fine. The ones that have to worry about this the most are those that collect other examples in "other holders"...or so it seems to me anyway. I would prefer there be no unscrupulous people out there but for those that wish to go after quality, there do seem to be ways to protect yourself...at least to a certain degree.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
That's a cheap shot. Since Legend deals in certified coins only, it's obvious that what she considers is submitting doctored coins to the TPG's to be unethical and fraudulent.
Not meant as a cheap shot in the least. We have some honest (and relatively minor) differences of opinion.
Anyway, one point on which we differ is that I do not think that every case of "submitting doctored coins to the TPG's" is "unethical and fraudulent".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Anyway, one point on which we differ is that I do not think that every case of "submitting doctored coins to the TPG's" is "unethical and fraudulent". >>
If it were considered so, I imagine there would be some unsuspecting submitters caught up in *that* net.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm guessing that's what you were really trying to say.... >>
Zoins - Thanks for your efforts, but I say what I mean and I don't need an interpreter. >>
No worries. I'll keep that in mind.
Just curious, are you acting as an interpreter for Laura here or are these her own words:
<< <i>Unlike Laura, I do not consider every case of coin doctoring to be unethical or fraudulent. >>
I'm curious because my guess is that she wouldn't consider Allen Stockton's work to be unethical or fraudulent.
I agree that every upgraded coin dilutes the population and over time keeps the market down. Those who cherrypick upgradeable coins and upgrade them really remove the high end coins for their grade from the marketplace forever. I saw a 1856 FE cent in a NGC holder graded PR66 that was no better than a PR64. It was offered at about 1/2 PR66 money, so it looked like a bargain. It wasn't, in my opinion. Also, that coin will lower the statistical pricing for that grade when you compare it against a true PR66.
As far as the "Doctoring plaque", I think the majority of coin doctors who are dealers are owners of B&M shops. They buy anything and everything from the general public. They fix coins so often, they don't think twice about it. They are eBay sellers too. They prefer to wholesale their stuff rather than sit with it at a show and show everyone what they are doing.
Sellers who rely on selling to collectors for most of their sales, post good pictures of their coins on their web sites, stand behind their coins with a two-way market, and actively promote numismatics should not be the target. BTW, many PNG dealers are exactly what I describe.
<< <i>Sellers who rely on selling to collectors for most of their sales, post good pictures of their coins on their web sites, stand behind their coins with a two-way market, and actively promote numismatics should not be the target. BTW, many PNG dealers are exactly what I describe. >>
Then why don't they speak up about doctoring or encourage the PNG to take action, such as with their definition of doctoring? Why the silence?