Bust Half Dollar - Grade the Coin

poorguy · June 13, 2011 3:08AM

Hello once again everybody. What would you grade this baby? No tricks. Just a straight on shot. Rolling luster in-hand.

maibockaddict · June 13, 2011 3:10AM

Looks 55 with a shot @ 58

PTVETTER · June 13, 2011 3:32AM

Looks 55 with a shot @ 58

commoncents05 · June 13, 2011 3:36AM

I'll give it a 58.

-Paul

coinman23885 · June 13, 2011 3:41AM

AU58, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a MS63 holder.

scoobydeux · June 13, 2011 3:42AM

I would think that this one would sell for 62+ money. Holy smokes!!

58.

poorguy · June 13, 2011 3:44AM

I'll give you a hint. It certainly isn't AU. Weakness in the strike may be convincing some it's AU.

jdillane · June 13, 2011 3:50AM

I'll venture 64. Strike weakness likely keeps her south of gem. Incredibly clean surfaces and if the luster has enough flash perhaps she is gem after all.

STONE · June 13, 2011 4:07AM

Light cabinet friction makes me limit my grade choice to 63.
Depending on luster, that could be a 64

TahoeDale · June 13, 2011 4:08AM

PC 64, NGC 65, and nice looking half

jom · June 13, 2011 4:12AM

The reason people think it's AU is the rub on the eagle's head and top of left wing. Typical. I'd grade it 63 and maybe plus depending on luster.

jom

relicsncoins · June 13, 2011 4:14AM

If there truly is no rub on this coin, then the lack of hits would lead me to believe the coin is a 65.

maibockaddict · June 13, 2011 4:29AM

The pics make it look like luster is missing from at least 20% of the coin. But if it is just the toning that does this, then I would say its a 62 or maybe a 63.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · June 13, 2011 4:31AM

66+ or 67

TomB · June 13, 2011 4:32AM

I don't see any realistic chance of that being in an AU holder, but could not tell you what MS grade it has been given.

MercCrazy · June 13, 2011 4:34AM

I think it's a 58, but since it's apparently not, MS65.

coinlieutenant · June 13, 2011 4:34AM

AU62. Cabinet friction. Market acceptable.

richardshipp · June 13, 2011 4:38AM

Gorgeous coin and great pictures.

sparky64 · June 13, 2011 4:43AM

I'll say MS64 and wow.

scoobydeux · June 13, 2011 4:46AM

I'm going down with the AU ship on this one.

Too many "areas of weakness" on both the obverse (cap, bust tip, curl directly in front of the ear, behind the ear, below the Y of liberty and the curl just south of that) and reverse (top of the wings and claws, worse on the right for both, and 5 of 50c) for my taste, even if it is in a MS holder.

Additionally, I'd argue that the Pluribus, States and stars are strong for a weakly struck coin.

In truth though, the breaker would be what the surface looks like in hand, as the even AU surface wear looks very different from random MS bagmarks.

Regardless, I Love the look. Very handsome!

maibockaddict · June 13, 2011 4:49AM

And don't crack the FATTIE!!!

123cents · June 13, 2011 5:14AM

MS-63.

CoinJunkie · June 13, 2011 5:37AM

Not sure I see any rub, in which case I'd call it an easy 64.

Beautiful coin!

lkenefic · June 13, 2011 6:16AM

<< I'll give you a hint. It certainly isn't AU. Weakness in the strike may be convincing some it's AU. >>

Exactly... I'm going to go 63 with a bean or 64... I think the strike through on the "5" of 50 and the weakness in the hair details prevents higher... georgeous piece though. Thanks for sharing!

Leo

coin22lover · June 13, 2011 6:23AM

MS64, the flat areas I bet are in the strike

What's your photo setup and equipment like?

poorguy · June 13, 2011 6:26AM

<< MS64, the flat areas I bet are in the strike

What's your photo setup and equipment like? >>

Let's just say that I have a very typical copystand set-up with lights above rigged up on shelving in a 4'x4' closet.

zap1111 · June 13, 2011 6:48AM

I would put it at MS 63. Looks like the O.118a, R. 1.

BEAUTIFUL COIN!
zap

TPRC · June 14, 2011 1:45AM

If it's not rub, then 64

keyman64 · June 14, 2011 1:55AM

Impressive Coin

keyman64 · June 14, 2011 1:58AM

I love the term "Cabinet Friction". Has anyone ever rubbed their coins on cabinets? I understand the term but it is just silly to me and I would never use the term myself... I doubt anyone that cared about their coins was sliding them(creating rub) in and out of storage...over and over and over again...hard for me to believe.

jamesfsm · June 14, 2011 2:01AM

pcgs 55
ngc 58-62

chieftain1 · June 14, 2011 2:06AM

PCGS 64
NGC 65

Gorgeous Coin !!

grip · June 14, 2011 2:15AM

Great eye appeal.A 64 due to the weak strike.

rhedden · June 14, 2011 3:17AM

One of the prettiest Bust halves I have seen. It's a technical AU58 for sure due to friction on the high points of the hair curls and the edge of the eagle's wing. However, it's one of those coins that pains you to call it AU58 due to the eye appeal. I don't see any reason why this coin can't be worth MS65 money. It's a Gem, regardless of technical grade.

fastfreddie · June 14, 2011 3:22AM

60+, green bean

tradedollarnut · June 14, 2011 3:40AM

AU63 with a shot at 64.

MikeInFL · June 14, 2011 3:42AM

64 is my guess.

Windycity · June 14, 2011 4:01AM

I'm guessing MS66 or 66+ - gorgeous coin.

Baley · June 14, 2011 4:08AM

"cabinet friction" is a term that generally refers to numismatic handling of all kinds on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

sliding in and out of envelopes and flips, placement and viewing on velvet trays and sheets of clean paper and glass countertops, gentle handling with hands.

what the term generally excludes is circulation-type handling such as little marks and wear from jingling around with other coins, getting dirty and grungy, getting rubbed with fingers or cloth.

The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64.

keyman64 · June 14, 2011 4:17AM

<< "cabinet friction" is a term that generally refers to numismatic handling of all kinds on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

sliding in and out of envelopes and flips, placement and viewing on velvet trays and sheets of clean paper and glass countertops, gentle handling with hands.

what the term generally excludes is circulation-type handling such as little marks and wear from jingling around with other coins, getting dirty and grungy, getting rubbed with fingers or cloth.

The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>

Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. Market Acceptable grading is an entirely different matter. TradeDollarNut(Bruce) even alluded to this by covering the very thing by saying AU63. He should know...and has dealt with high end old stuff.

jom · June 14, 2011 5:27AM

<< The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>

Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. .. >>

You are absolutely correct. However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.

jom

lcoopie · June 14, 2011 5:32AM

64, limited by strike?

keyman64 · June 14, 2011 5:40AM

<< 

<< The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>

Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. .. >>

You are absolutely correct. However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.

jom >>

I understand someone might pay 63 or 64 money for it but that has nothing to do with grade, that has everything to do with an attractive and well struck coin with original mint luster etc. It is still NOT MINT STATE. What someone might pay for a coin has ZERO to do with GRADE...just look at the EXTREME TONERS. A coin can have hits all day long and be MS63 but someone might pay MS65 money because the coin is so cool/colorful...and might have a star next to the grade and a bean on the holder....it still does not change the fact that the coin is a 63.

So in this case I would call it 58+ because it is so pretty.

kaz · June 14, 2011 6:40AM

Assuming the strike is about as good as it gets for the issue, MS 65*

pmh1nic · June 14, 2011 6:44AM

<< However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.
>>

That is one very attractive coin!

Regardless of the wear on the high points it is much nice then many MS coins I've seen. If you have an attractive coin like this with nice luster and beautiful toning the AU/MS designation losses some of its importance and bearing in value IMHO.

jom · June 14, 2011 6:48AM

<< I understand someone might pay 63 or 64 money for it but that has nothing to do with grade, that has everything to do with an attractive and well struck coin with original mint luster etc. It is still NOT MINT STATE. What someone might pay for a coin has ZERO to do with GRADE...just look at the EXTREME TONERS. A coin can have hits all day long and be MS63 but someone might pay MS65 money because the coin is so cool/colorful...and might have a star next to the grade and a bean on the holder....it still does not change the fact that the coin is a 63.

So in this case I would call it 58+ because it is so pretty. >>

Like I said I agree. However, IMO, the market place may need to redefine how wear degrades a coin as compared to mint created bag marks or lack of luster or lack of strike. As it stands now there is nothing to account for this...yet. TDN mentioned AU63 or whatever. That seems a good solution....assuming we actually need a solution at all.

So like I said quality and grade aren't the same thing and the price is usually paid for the quality....so it seems we are saying the same thing.

Good post!

jom

roadrunner · June 14, 2011 7:04AM

<< I'll give you a hint. It certainly isn't AU. Weakness in the strike may be convincing some it's AU. >>

The strike may have some weaknesses..... but the coin has significant rub (both wingtips, eagle's brow, upper, mid and lower hair curls, drapery lines, lower and middle wing
feathers, top of arrow shafts, tops of claw knuckles, berries, fold of cap, etc.)...about 20 spots overall on the coin w/o being too picky. The color change at those pts is clear.
The fields look surprisingly clean from chatter and luster break. So I would suspect this coin sat in an album or a hard surface for many years which induced that high point
rubbing/sliding friction. Technically it is AU. But it's worth MS money.

I think the tpg's would grade it at the level most would be comfortable trading off the rub for the eye appeal and luster. A premium AU58/63 coin.

Grade today is MS63 to MS64 on overall eye appeal and luster. This same coin graded back in 1988 probably would have landed at AU58 but probably would have fetched a MS61 price.
They weren't so forgiving of this much high point rub back then. Bust and early to mid 19th century seated coinage is given a pass with this type of friction as long as the rest of the coin
is "alive." I don't often mind some minor right wing tip and upper cap rub. But this has it on every quadrant of the coin. Look for the white spots sitting on the flat light gray
areas....such as the lower bust line drapery at 7:00.

roadrunner

questor54 · June 14, 2011 7:11AM

4 or 5. My guess FWIW.

questor54 · June 14, 2011 7:16AM

<< I love the term "Cabinet Friction". Has anyone ever rubbed their coins on cabinets? I understand the term but it is just silly to me and I would never use the term myself... I doubt anyone that cared about their coins was sliding them(creating rub) in and out of storage...over and over and over again...hard for me to believe. >>

They did - for hundreds of years in Europe and the early collectors in the US adopted the same storage method. Europeans still commonly use them today. You can buy elaborate coin cabinets that are hundreds of years old, and VERY expensive - museum pieces really.

I suspect much 'cabinet friction' on US coins is really acetate slide friction from that type of coin album which should be banned.

Then, thank God, some geniuses invented and popularized slabs.

Zoins · June 14, 2011 7:25AM

It looks like a very attractive AU to me.

I think TDN's AU63 or so is a good evolution for market grading to keep the AU/MS terms unambiguous.

pmh1nic · June 14, 2011 8:49AM

Grading is in part a means of quantifying the condition and to some extent the attractiveness of a coin. Of course there is that grey area (AU-55 ~ MS-64) where technical issues that prohibit a coin from being classified at one level (MS) can obscure the fact that it rivals the attractiveness of coins graded higher.

Would I be surprised that this coin garners a premium price, well above AU-58 (assuming that's what it would be graded)? Not at all. IMHO you can toss the price list when it comes to coins like this.

Bust Half Dollar - Grade the Coin

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