63 but 64 would not surprise me at all. Very attactive regardless of the grade. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The wide array of opinions is proof grading is subjective. For me, the luster is impossible to gauge from the photo. It all comes down to how it would look in hand.
I know we're talking pictures but compare these two considering condition and attractiveness. They are both beautiful coins in there own right.
Now one might be graded AU because of the rub and the other MS but does that rub really take away a significant portion of the value? Not in my opinion.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Realistically, if the coin had complete luster showing up in the photo, it would grade MS65 at the very LEAST! It may appear to have a little rub on it, but if it had actually circulated, do you really think it would have few hits and look this nice? Just thinking a lil bit here...It is 180 years young after all...
Not sure what further commentary Brandon expects to receive, there are basically 2 camps, those who say "GEM or nearly so" and those who say "I see rub so I call it AU58" (to which I say, you can "call" it anything you want, call it "Fred" if you want, but the coin just about has to be valued as a gem because it looks like that)
I think it is foolish to think one can grade such a coin from pictures, but since Brandon says it is MS, I will throw in a guess at MS63. Some of the hair curls could be struck up better, same thing with the claws.
Had I not been told it was not AU, my guess would have been AU58.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
From what I can see I see luster breaks on some high points consistent with wear. Wear is wear Awesome coin and one that should go for premium money, but from what I can see, it should not be market graded into a MS holder.... just because. I am seeing a 58 by the way, a really nice 58.
I have to defer to my friend, Dale. He's had hundreds or thousands of these Bust Halves in hand. So, if he says its an NGC 65 - or - a PCGS 64, I have to "look and learn".
Regardless of the grade - its a VERY attractive coin.
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
I don't believe in "cabinet friction," like several other people who responded. A coin is either free of wear, or it's not. If it got some wear by sliding around in a cabinet, then that's just dandy- it's an AU or lower.
I have an 1818/5 bust quarter that is just like the OP's coin. It's an AU coin with full, rolling luster and the eye appeal of a Gem. There is really no doubt it's AU, though. Too bad someone didn't take better care of it years ago.
AU is a condition, not a factual state of being. You can take a coin from your pocket that circulated and it can grade MS65. You can take a coin from a bank bag that never circulated and it can grade AU58. What that means to me is that full rolling luster PRECLUDES a coin from grading AU58. A coin isn't AU58 until it shows circulation wear in the fields. Until then, it's AU62-65
To me, au58 is a touch of rub on the high points. IMO, once you have wear in the fields it goes lower than 58. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>IMO, there's no such thing as an AU coin with full rolling luster. >>
There was such a thing back in the 1975-1985 market. The highest grade/value that one would assign to such a coin would generally be what we call MS61 today. But it still fell into the 58-61 price range. It was very rare in those days to see a full field luster post 1810 silver type coin (seated-bust-barber) fetch near gem or full gem money when it had heavy rub on numerous parts of the coin. Since the advent of the TPG's it's now quite possible to achieve a 65 grade on such a coin. The standard today is much different than the one of 30 yrs ago. You need a plentiful supply of mint state coins to support an investment grade market. Having 95% of currently graded unc bust halves called AU58 would not be helpful towards that goal. So that AU58-61 range was generally widened to AU58 to MS64....and prices were expanded as well. I don't have a problem with the system other than to note that it hasn't been this way forever. Back in the olden days these same coins were probably called Extra Fine. Even the AU grade is something relatively new. The investment market of the early 1970's helped to push these changes along. But let's not kid ourselves on how and why they came about.
The weak strike precludes a 66 grade IMHO, and as much as I love the luster and toning it's not going to push the coin into the 65 ~ 66 level due to the weak strike.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Another week goes by.....and no grade. Is this the new "eternal" thread? Inquiring minds want to know.
On 2nd thought, just do a quick search of 1826 halves at Heritage. Should come up. Yup, here it is, from a Dec 2010 auction. In an older NGC 63 holder. Fetched $3700+ or basically 64 money. I find it sort of mind-boggling that 181 have been graded by both services in this grade along with 327 higher...just for one date. That's a lot of busties out there. But it would be interesting to know if it's still in the 63 holder or was upgraded since....considering the buyer put out 64 money. Coin was not yet stickered at that sale.
<< <i>AU is a condition, not a factual state of being. You can take a coin from your pocket that circulated and it can grade MS65. You can take a coin from a bank bag that never circulated and it can grade AU58. What that means to me is that full rolling luster PRECLUDES a coin from grading AU58. A coin isn't AU58 until it shows circulation wear in the fields. Until then, it's AU62-65 >>
So theoretically if I took a belt sander (with a sophisticated vacuum system) to a coin and gently removed the high points of a coin so that it should grade XF, it would still be considered an uncirculated coin? If it was done well then it would still have full rolling luster, and some serious "wear."
I've never heard that wear in the fields is what makes a coin an AU as opposed to MS. I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, just trying to understand.
Under the modified Sheldon Scale, I'm in concurrence with TDN , roadrunner, and those who would leave the window open for an AU coin in the 61 to 64 range. Then again, I don't grade coins professionally... I just like hanging around coin people in chat rooms.
Doesn't the observation of "FULL, rolling luster preclude wear on the high points? Is it strike weakness, or wear, and can you with certitude tell from these photos?
The coin looks to be MS64 in the photos. It's a lovely coin and with the overall appeal I would be proud to own it as such. This is only my opinion.
Under the modified Sheldon Scale, I'm in concurrence with TDN , roadrunner, and those who would leave the window open for an AU coin in the 61 to 64 range. Then again, I don't grade coins professionally... I just like hanging around coin people in chat rooms.
While I may leave this window open to account for today's wider grading standards, I personally try to avoid coins like this for my own holdings. This was called rub back in the 1970's and didn't change my own standards because TPG's have ruled otherwise. Problem is, there are so few bust halves in grades of MS64 & lower lacking that wing tip rub that one's target of opportunity are quite limited, esp. if you are looking for eye appealing specimens. And yes, the photos of the OP's coin imo clearly shows high point wear vs. strike. The lighter color on the upper right wing is much different than other areas of the coin that are flatly struck. One can say the patina was removed but still suggests some friction occured from excessive handling of some sort....though not necessarily a belt sander. Reeded edge and seated halves still suffer from this malady but at a much reduced % than CBH's. You will almost never see a Barber half or Walker given a MS rating with this kind of rub even with "full rolling luster" (FRL) and lovely toning. I guess FRL is only a 19th and 18th century phenomena.
Comments
<< <i>Well, spill the beans already. Some of us have been waiting patiently to know the answer
+1
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, spill the beans already. Some of us have been waiting patiently to know the answer
+1 >>
Why spoil all the fun so early? This thread has potential.
This topic has been the thorn in the side of all collectors who collect early halves. MS/AU vs. Valuation.
AB
<< <i>Hello once again everybody. What would you grade this baby? No tricks. Just a straight on shot. Rolling luster in-hand.
God she is perfect!!!!
MS64 all day!!!
Poorguy, where did you find this perfectly toned lady????
Now one might be graded AU because of the rub and the other MS but does that rub really take away a significant portion of the value? Not in my opinion.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
(to which I say, you can "call" it anything you want, call it "Fred" if you want, but the coin just about has to be valued as a gem because it looks like that)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Had I not been told it was not AU, my guess would have been AU58.
Wear is wear
Awesome coin and one that should go for premium money, but from what I can see, it should not be
market graded into a MS holder.... just because.
I am seeing a 58 by the way, a really nice 58.
I have to defer to my friend, Dale.
He's had hundreds or thousands of
these Bust Halves in hand. So, if he
says its an NGC 65 - or - a PCGS 64,
I have to "look and learn".
Regardless of the grade - its a VERY
attractive coin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
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I have an 1818/5 bust quarter that is just like the OP's coin. It's an AU coin with full, rolling luster and the eye appeal of a Gem. There is really no doubt it's AU, though. Too bad someone didn't take better care of it years ago.
<< <i>IMO, there's no such thing as an AU coin with full rolling luster. >>
Kinda what I was thinking but what the heck do I know? I'm new.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>IMO, there's no such thing as an AU coin with full rolling luster. >>
There was such a thing back in the 1975-1985 market. The highest grade/value that one would assign to such a coin would generally be what we call MS61 today. But it still fell into the 58-61 price range. It was very rare in those days to see a full field luster post 1810 silver type coin (seated-bust-barber) fetch near gem or full gem money when it had heavy rub on numerous parts of the coin. Since the advent of the TPG's it's now quite possible to achieve a 65 grade on such a coin. The standard today is much different than the one of 30 yrs ago. You need a plentiful supply of mint state coins to support an investment grade market. Having 95% of currently graded unc bust halves called AU58 would not be helpful towards that goal. So that AU58-61 range was generally widened to AU58 to MS64....and prices were expanded as well. I don't have a problem with the system other than to note that it hasn't been this way forever. Back in the olden days these same coins were probably called Extra Fine. Even the AU grade is something relatively new. The investment market of the early 1970's helped to push these changes along. But let's not kid ourselves on how and why they came about.
roadrunner
<< <i>MS-66
The weak strike precludes a 66 grade IMHO, and as much as I love the luster and toning it's not going to push the coin into the 65 ~ 66 level due to the weak strike.
Very interesting read.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Inquiring minds want to know.
On 2nd thought, just do a quick search of 1826 halves at Heritage. Should come up. Yup, here it is, from a Dec 2010 auction. In an older NGC 63 holder.
Fetched $3700+ or basically 64 money. I find it sort of mind-boggling that 181 have been graded by both services in this grade along with 327 higher...just for one date.
That's a lot of busties out there. But it would be interesting to know if it's still in the 63 holder or was upgraded since....considering the buyer put out 64 money. Coin was
not yet stickered at that sale.
Case closed.
1826 half NGC MS63
roadrunner
Thanks for doing the legwork on that.
I will say that poorguy's photos put those of Heritage to shame.
<< <i>AU is a condition, not a factual state of being. You can take a coin from your pocket that circulated and it can grade MS65. You can take a coin from a bank bag that never circulated and it can grade AU58. What that means to me is that full rolling luster PRECLUDES a coin from grading AU58. A coin isn't AU58 until it shows circulation wear in the fields. Until then, it's AU62-65 >>
So theoretically if I took a belt sander (with a sophisticated vacuum system) to a coin and gently removed the high points of a coin so that it should grade XF, it would still be considered an uncirculated coin? If it was done well then it would still have full rolling luster, and some serious "wear."
I've never heard that wear in the fields is what makes a coin an AU as opposed to MS. I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, just trying to understand.
The coin looks to be MS64 in the photos. It's a lovely coin and with the overall appeal I would be proud to own it as such. This is only my opinion.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
While I may leave this window open to account for today's wider grading standards, I personally try to avoid coins like this for my own holdings. This was called rub back in the 1970's
and didn't change my own standards because TPG's have ruled otherwise. Problem is, there are so few bust halves in grades of MS64 & lower lacking that wing tip rub that one's target
of opportunity are quite limited, esp. if you are looking for eye appealing specimens. And yes, the photos of the OP's coin imo clearly shows high point wear vs. strike. The lighter color
on the upper right wing is much different than other areas of the coin that are flatly struck. One can say the patina was removed but still suggests some friction occured from excessive
handling of some sort....though not necessarily a belt sander. Reeded edge and seated halves still suffer from this malady but at a much reduced % than CBH's. You will almost never
see a Barber half or Walker given a MS rating with this kind of rub even with "full rolling luster" (FRL) and lovely toning. I guess FRL is only a 19th and 18th century phenomena.
roadrunner