Bust Half Dollar - Grade the Coin
poorguy
Posts: 4,317 ✭
Hello once again everybody. What would you grade this baby? No tricks. Just a straight on shot. Rolling luster in-hand.
Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
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BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
-Paul
58.
Depending on luster, that could be a 64
jom
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
siliconvalleycoins.com
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Too many "areas of weakness" on both the obverse (cap, bust tip, curl directly in front of the ear, behind the ear, below the Y of liberty and the curl just south of that) and reverse (top of the wings and claws, worse on the right for both, and 5 of 50c) for my taste, even if it is in a MS holder.
Additionally, I'd argue that the Pluribus, States and stars are strong for a weakly struck coin.
In truth though, the breaker would be what the surface looks like in hand, as the even AU surface wear looks very different from random MS bagmarks.
Regardless, I Love the look. Very handsome!
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Beautiful coin!
<< <i>I'll give you a hint. It certainly isn't AU. Weakness in the strike may be convincing some it's AU. >>
Exactly... I'm going to go 63 with a bean or 64... I think the strike through on the "5" of 50 and the weakness in the hair details prevents higher... georgeous piece though. Thanks for sharing!
Leo
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What's your photo setup and equipment like?
<< <i>MS64, the flat areas I bet are in the strike
What's your photo setup and equipment like? >>
Let's just say that I have a very typical copystand set-up with lights above rigged up on shelving in a 4'x4' closet.
BEAUTIFUL COIN!
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Tom
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
ngc 58-62
NGC 65
Gorgeous Coin !!
sliding in and out of envelopes and flips, placement and viewing on velvet trays and sheets of clean paper and glass countertops, gentle handling with hands.
what the term generally excludes is circulation-type handling such as little marks and wear from jingling around with other coins, getting dirty and grungy, getting rubbed with fingers or cloth.
The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>"cabinet friction" is a term that generally refers to numismatic handling of all kinds on an otherwise uncirculated coin.
sliding in and out of envelopes and flips, placement and viewing on velvet trays and sheets of clean paper and glass countertops, gentle handling with hands.
what the term generally excludes is circulation-type handling such as little marks and wear from jingling around with other coins, getting dirty and grungy, getting rubbed with fingers or cloth.
The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>
Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. Market Acceptable grading is an entirely different matter. TradeDollarNut(Bruce) even alluded to this by covering the very thing by saying AU63. He should know...and has dealt with high end old stuff.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>
Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. .. >>
You are absolutely correct. However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.
jom
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin looks to have full luster, I'll guess MS64. >>
Like I said, I am familiar with the term and understand it completely...however in my opinion, wear is wear is wear is wear is wear. It does not matter if the wear was carefully acquired over 200 years or not...it is still wear. Wear on a coin automatically drops the coin below UNC for me...as it seems to for about 50% of the people in this group. .. >>
You are absolutely correct. However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.
jom >>
I understand someone might pay 63 or 64 money for it but that has nothing to do with grade, that has everything to do with an attractive and well struck coin with original mint luster etc. It is still NOT MINT STATE. What someone might pay for a coin has ZERO to do with GRADE...just look at the EXTREME TONERS. A coin can have hits all day long and be MS63 but someone might pay MS65 money because the coin is so cool/colorful...and might have a star next to the grade and a bean on the holder....it still does not change the fact that the coin is a 63.
So in this case I would call it 58+ because it is so pretty.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>However, people will pay much more than "AU" money for that piece. In fact, many would pay more than a lot of MS pieces. Why? Because QUALITY is not the same as GRADE. That's why "automatically drops the coins below UNC" is not a completely accurate account for these types of coins and probably the reason that "market acceptable" is something that is used in the market place.
>>
That is one very attractive coin!
Regardless of the wear on the high points it is much nice then many MS coins I've seen. If you have an attractive coin like this with nice luster and beautiful toning the AU/MS designation losses some of its importance and bearing in value IMHO.
<< <i>I understand someone might pay 63 or 64 money for it but that has nothing to do with grade, that has everything to do with an attractive and well struck coin with original mint luster etc. It is still NOT MINT STATE. What someone might pay for a coin has ZERO to do with GRADE...just look at the EXTREME TONERS. A coin can have hits all day long and be MS63 but someone might pay MS65 money because the coin is so cool/colorful...and might have a star next to the grade and a bean on the holder....it still does not change the fact that the coin is a 63.
So in this case I would call it 58+ because it is so pretty. >>
Like I said I agree. However, IMO, the market place may need to redefine how wear degrades a coin as compared to mint created bag marks or lack of luster or lack of strike. As it stands now there is nothing to account for this...yet. TDN mentioned AU63 or whatever. That seems a good solution....assuming we actually need a solution at all.
So like I said quality and grade aren't the same thing and the price is usually paid for the quality....so it seems we are saying the same thing.
Good post!
jom
<< <i>I'll give you a hint. It certainly isn't AU. Weakness in the strike may be convincing some it's AU. >>
The strike may have some weaknesses..... but the coin has significant rub (both wingtips, eagle's brow, upper, mid and lower hair curls, drapery lines, lower and middle wing
feathers, top of arrow shafts, tops of claw knuckles, berries, fold of cap, etc.)...about 20 spots overall on the coin w/o being too picky. The color change at those pts is clear.
The fields look surprisingly clean from chatter and luster break. So I would suspect this coin sat in an album or a hard surface for many years which induced that high point
rubbing/sliding friction. Technically it is AU. But it's worth MS money.
I think the tpg's would grade it at the level most would be comfortable trading off the rub for the eye appeal and luster. A premium AU58/63 coin.
Grade today is MS63 to MS64 on overall eye appeal and luster. This same coin graded back in 1988 probably would have landed at AU58 but probably would have fetched a MS61 price.
They weren't so forgiving of this much high point rub back then. Bust and early to mid 19th century seated coinage is given a pass with this type of friction as long as the rest of the coin
is "alive." I don't often mind some minor right wing tip and upper cap rub. But this has it on every quadrant of the coin. Look for the white spots sitting on the flat light gray
areas....such as the lower bust line drapery at 7:00.
roadrunner
<< <i>I love the term "Cabinet Friction". Has anyone ever rubbed their coins on cabinets? I understand the term but it is just silly to me and I would never use the term myself... I doubt anyone that cared about their coins was sliding them(creating rub) in and out of storage...over and over and over again...hard for me to believe. >>
They did - for hundreds of years in Europe and the early collectors in the US adopted the same storage method. Europeans still commonly use them today. You can buy elaborate coin cabinets that are hundreds of years old, and VERY expensive - museum pieces really.
I suspect much 'cabinet friction' on US coins is really acetate slide friction from that type of coin album which should be banned.
Then, thank God, some geniuses invented and popularized slabs.
I think TDN's AU63 or so is a good evolution for market grading to keep the AU/MS terms unambiguous.
Would I be surprised that this coin garners a premium price, well above AU-58 (assuming that's what it would be graded)? Not at all. IMHO you can toss the price list when it comes to coins like this.