<< <i>No new revelations here. Anyone remember the guy that had all of those yellow pan-fried modern commems holdered to prove a point? >>
Yes. Weren't they are #1 reg set and didn't he literally fry them in a pan? MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I have not seen pix or tried to delve into this thead more than what has been written above . . but I'll tell you one thing . .
Shane has been, and always will be, a stalwart numismatist on these Boards. I'd trust him with anything, as I would most that I deal with here. Let's keep an eye on the bigger picture here and get a grip. I have never met him. I don't have to. He is, and always has been, a man of his word and a man of honest action.
Think twice before throwing a man's integrity under the bus. Many of us would work for decades to develop the reputation he has earned.
<< <i>No one is talking destroying here, he should have just kept it or given it to a trusted friend or dipped it and then dump it out on the market. This thread just shows you that the coin docs can still get away with their trade unless they are outed by the dealers who are in the know and the PNG and whatever other watchdog group that exists for the so-called purposes of protecting the consumer/collector. I personally send my slabbed coins that are questionable to JA for his nod. >>
Didnt you say this previously ? "I would shove it, destroy it,"
<< <i>and folks wonder why no one brings these topics up.....now I am the bad guy in all this because of about $20 worth of junk silver. I said it before and I will say it again...I don't own dip and their was full disclosure which is all anyone can do contrary to what is being posted in this thread. Please get out of the glass houses folks becuase your being rediculous with your frankenstein statements. >>
The coins were yours and you are free to do whatever you wish to do so as long as you are honest. You were, and you disclosed the AT toning in your auction description. I think people should stop whining and complaining about what they think you should have done. Why not criticize, instead, the many buyers who are too lazy to learn the difference among NT/AT/MA coins and who blindly rely on certified coins (and this isn't directed at anyone here). Everyone makes mistakes (i.e. PCGS), and so as long as you were open in disclosing this information, I say caveat emptor! Additionally, I think everyone here is overlooking the real issue: the epidemic of doctored coins that have been turning in all top TPGs holders. While no certification company will get it right 100%, this forum should serve as an impetus for the grading services and submitters to develop new technologies/methodologies to detect artificial toning and other chemical tampering. Any ideas?
Has Krypto sold any TPG coins that HE PERSONALLY had knowledge that they were AT?
He can disclaim any adverse effects on the coins that he disclosed were AT'd when he sold them, but OTOH has he ALWAYS been so forthright? That may be as important....
Especially since I have been one of his customers!!!
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
What it appears he's implying is that I am a coin doctor which is a joke. I will post the images and you folks decide how good a job I did with these coins...there terrible and that's fine by me. Also what some folks appearently don't know is that 95% of what I sell is consigned to me AKA they aren't even my coins...I didn't tone them or submit them. The other 5% is coins I have purchased at shows or on Ebay either originally for my collection or to flip for a profit...again...I did not submit the coins.
Finally if you think you yourself yeah those example look terrible but maybe he was perfecting his craft as a coin doctor.....as I know some will....please explain to me why in the heck I would come out and tell everyone that I experimented with toning coins and some accidentally got into holder. There is no one on this planet other than me that would be any wiser if I had simply sold the consigned coins on ebay. I had nothing to gain by my self admission other than a clear conscience and I chose to take the ethical route and not sell them and share my findings so that others would take there eyes off of tpg holders and examine coins more closely like I am doing.
Finally....the reason I did not start a thread over here should be fairly obvious...I like the forums and did not want to get the boot if someone from the PCGS leadership team took my admission and subsequent images of AT coins in their holders as a personal attack to make them look bad. I would submit that the same thing has probably happened just as much to NGC with bad coins getting into good holders I simply don't have the evidence in hand.
Has Krypto sold any TPG coins that HE PERSONALLY had knowledge that they were AT?
He can disclaim any adverse effects on the coins that he disclosed were AT'd when he sold them, but OTOH has he ALWAYS been so forthright? That may be as important....
Especially since I have been one of his customers!!!
>>
I would have to be the worst coin doctor in existence to out myself and also be a coin seller on the side....I mean please someone step up and explain how I benefit at all from outing myself if I was doing shady things in a lab. The only coins I personally know were AT'd is the five examples that were recently consigned....I have no clue if someone else sent me an AT coin and I sold it becuase it was already grade....I couldn't possibly know that unless the consignor told me and again I asked....why would a consignor tell me he coked up some coins and take a chance that I may not sell them or are we once again questioning my ethics???
I seriously have to wonder how much damage is done to this hobby simply by the personal attacks and accusations on these forums becuase doing the right thing and coming forward seems to be the worst decision I ever made. If you want the problem to get resolved then don't beat up the guy at the podium talking about the issue. Questions are fair...but please analyze the situation a bit more before throwing me under the bus as the one thing I am is honest to a fault.
I think you outed yourself because you had no choice. If you sold coins that you knew in fact were dr'd by you, then you were/are a dr. If you returned them and explained to the guy the whole story and he got pissed and outed you here, it would have been worse for you.
You were in a catch 22. You gambled ATS that no one would say anything. You gambled and lost. A better course of action when your consignor sent your coins would have been for you to sell them to yourself and then take care of them. No one would have known and no one would have been harmed, except you ironically. Maybe that would have cost you at most $100. Was this bad PR worth that? At this point I still think that's the best course of action. If you return them, then he could sell them on Ebay and someone else will be harmed. He could attempt to collect on PCGS's warranty which harms investors.
Toned coins are to the coin market what cycling is to the sports world. I am not saying they are all dirty but one has to wonder when a coin that doesn't look like the millions of its counterparts in a know sleazy portion of the market comes around one can't help but wonder about it and the people who deal with them esp when they admit to "playing around" with the processes. While it would be impossible to know the OP ATS intention of starting such a stupid thread, I don't think it is out of bounds for people to fall on both sides of the fence and call him out or support about his actions, intent and failed self promotion/ pat on the back / whatever he hoped to do. When people with less than ideal intelligence play with fire......
Shane you simply put yourself between a rock and a hard place! Your first mistake, was simply letting the monsters out of your control. Perhaps you should have kept them as a reference tool, or posted them as a learning aid to those of us that do not experiment! Once you released them, you lost all control and opened yourself up to this predicament. Your decision to "out" yourself is a reflection of your character. A good reflection I might add.
So IMHO your biggest mistake was not your experiment, it was your lack of foresight. Continue to experiment, and learn. Then share your results for the rest of us to learn. Containing your creations within the laboratory is a must. Otherwise you might create a scenario akin to Stephen King's world in The Stand! Once the monster's out of the lab, you can never put it back. The good news is that even in that world the "good guys" win. BTW, learning is a good thing. Knowledge is power, and what you do with that knowledge is powerful. Sharing it makes us all better..........
Thanks,
Bob
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
<< <i>I think you outed yourself because you had no choice. If you sold coins that you knew in fact were dr'd by you, then you were/are a dr. If you returned them and explained to the guy the whole story and he got pissed and outed you here, it would have been worse for you.
You were in a catch 22. You gambled ATS that no one would say anything. You gambled and lost. A better course of action when your consignor sent your coins would have been for you to sell them to yourself and then take care of them. No one would have known and no one would have been harmed, except you ironically. Maybe that would have cost you at most $100. Was this bad PR worth that? At this point I still think that's the best course of action. If you return them, then he could sell them on Ebay and someone else will be harmed. He could attempt to collect on PCGS's warranty which harms investors. >>
This is so laughable it's not even funny...my consignor doesn't even post here....the coin collecting community does not begin and end with the PCGS coin forums. If I would have sold the coins only me and my conscience would have known...nobody else on the planet. Gambled across the street...are you kidding me???Half the folks that post over there post over here including me....there was no secret by posting over there but I tell you...the overal behavior over there is a lot better than over here and always have been. personal attacks and accusations are the norm over here....they are more rare over their period so I started my thread over there so folks wouldn't think i was trying to make PCGS look bad.
The rest of your rambling make no sense..bad PR?????...I feel like I am on mars reading some of these rediculous responses over here.
I will not post to this thread again as it's clear that there are folks with conspiracy theories and agendas that I will not waste my time on. Please feel free to think of me as you will and I won't lose any sleep over it...you probably hate santa and the easter bunny in your miserable existance on this planet
<< <i>Shane you simply put yourself between a rock and a hard place! Your first mistake, was simply letting the monsters out of your control. Perhaps you should have kept them as a reference tool, or posted them as a learning aid to those of us that do not experiment! Once you released them, you lost all control and opened yourself up to this predicament. Your decision to "out" yourself is a reflection of your character. A good reflection I might add.
So IMHO your biggest mistake was not your experiment, it was your lack of foresight. Continue to experiment, and learn. Then share your results for the rest of us to learn. Containing your creations within the laboratory is a must. Otherwise you might create a scenario akin to Stephen King's world in The Stand! Once the monster's out of the lab, you can never put it back. The good news is that even in that world the "good guys" win. BTW, learning is a good thing. Knowledge is power, and what you do with that knowledge is powerful. Sharing it makes us all better..........
Thanks,
Bob
>>
I keep hearing the term "mistake." In my opinion he didn't err, and he had no responsibility, legal, moral, or otherwise, to do anything other than to disclose this fact to the purchaser. He did this, and there was no fraudulent intent nor was there a misrepresentation of the nature of the toning to the buyer; thus, there is no moral issue on his part. He is free to do whatever he wishes with his coins. Second of all, if anyone is immoral, it is the person who slabbed the coins knowing that they were artificially toned and attempted to pass them off. Third, buyers should take a little initiative on their own before embarking in any serious financial transaction. If you are unprepared or naive, then you deserve whatever you get. Caveat emptor! Finally, I'm not sure why there is so much criticism directed at Shane, and quite frankly, many of the comments on here are defamatory. I hope PCGS sees this thread for what it truly is and removes it. The only "mistake" that I can think of is that Shane actually felt badly and/or compelled to release this information. Instead, a good guy tried to do the right thing, even going beyond the call of duty/ethics, and in the process he ends up getting burned. And for the record, I would NOT offer to refund anyone's money. Once the coins left your hands, you no longer have any responsibility with how a SUBSEQUENT buyer represents your items.
And Shane, I wouldn't really worry about it. You already have an established clientele that will stick by you. The few naysayers that may not purchase coins from you are probably mad and insecure because they couldn't tell AT from MA/NT if their life depended on it. Their money and the resulting annoyance they would bring isn't worth it. And as future advice, I would not disclose anything to anyone anymore. If you truly feel badly that experimental pieces were released (which you shouldn't) then quietly buy them back, and voila - the issue goes away! I also hope that you don't let the posters who criticize you cause you to stop selling coins - I have been and will continue to be one of your customers.
The surprise isn't that some AT'd coins made it in to PCGS plastic, it's that some seem shocked that it happened. Oh, and the righteous indignation and hand wringing directed at Shane is hilarious. You people should be thanking him for giving you a wakeup call.
The (over)reaction of this thread was so frick'en predictable. The only "fiasco" within didn't generate from the OP but rather many of this thread's participants.
Ok so there seems to be what feels like an avalanche starting of accusations and conspiracy theories which will soon result into more BS. In reading both threads, the facts seem pretty simple. 5 years or so Shane was expirimenting on some AT methods for knowledge or curiousity. I would think many fans of toned coins after reading years about AT and all these methods would try a few out of natural curiousity. Heck, I got 3 circulated Kennedy Halves sitting on a redwood shingle in my garage. The coins were dogs (to him) and he sold him forthright and for bullion. Somehow they are now in a PCGS holder. He is concerned about that and posted across the street since this is a PCGS forum. I consider that a smart and fair thing to do. It was brought over here, not by him.
I can comment on my one buying experience with Shane, and although just one, for me it was a big one. A beautiful mint bag toned Morgan in a PCGS holder that I then sent to CAC and got stickered. I love the coin, the experience with Shane was top notch. In the last couple of years I have paid attention to his posts and comments he has made in others regarding coin toning and I have trusted them and respected his opinion. NONE of that changes with me. Thinking that he is "outing" himself out of guilt and then this spiraling into fear and accusations is unwarranted and before this goes on further, I think any other poster to this thread should think strongly about their words as they can be permanent and damaging to one's personal reputation and livelihood.
<< <i>The (over)reaction of this thread was so frick'en predictable. The only "fiasco" within didn't generate from the OP but rather many of this thread's participants. >>
This. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>This is a discussion board. Someone can't expect to start a discussion and not have many opinions coime out expected or unexpected. It is a free country to express one's opinion on a thread someone stated. I would still by from the subject of this conversation, that hasn't changed. And the fact that he ated some coins is not at issue, what you do in your own home or anywhere else is fine with me, experimenting for one's edcuation is perfectly fine, not my business or should it be anybody else's, I mean how is someone really goignt o lear how to detect at if they don't try duplicating them themselves.
By opinion is simple, when you sell a known ated coin, known here means you absolutely know it because you ated it yourself that is fool hardy because it could bite you in the arse int he future. Why sell it? Why put oneself in that future unpredictable position, Is this hindsight 20-20 knowing how sensitive this issue is to the hobby...I don't think so...I think it is red hot but that ijmho. If I were the op I would have kept them as they were supposedly intended, a learning experience, no reason to sell tham at all. When one says they were sold with full disclosure, well my response is so what. First one must trust you on your word and second that is a statement one would have to make in order to justify the sale to most here. But the whole point is to think in advance, to understand whether it is sold with full disclosure or not, it deosn't really matter becasue the point is what may happen later. You know that the buyer can do anything he wants with his coins, just like you can with yours. But his responsibility is different than yours, you were the creator, you had the knowldege, and all I am saying is that you should have held on to your at products for your own protection.
I respect the fact that you outed yourself, why you did is hard to really say, only you know what motivated you to do such a thing and I won't even try to figure that out although many have opined to that one. But you did, it is out of the bag so what shall we all do with it. I say lets all learn from this situation. Next time someone doesn't ating at home, either keep it, dip it, or destroy it, it is up to you but either one you chose you will be a whole lot safer because you won't ever see your at job bite you in the arse at a later date whether you admitted it or not, whether it was assumed or not, whether it was intended or not.
I have full respect for this individual and believe in truning negatives into positives, this has beena great eye opening experience on an obviously very senstive subject for a lot of viewers. But lets not make this more than it is. Dr Frankenstein he is not, and his monster(s) are pretty harmless in the realm of things. >>
<< <i>I respect the fact that you outed yourself, why you did is hard to really say, only you know what motivated you to do such a thing and I won't even try to figure that out although many have opined to that one. But you did, it is out of the bag so what shall we all do with it. I say lets all learn from this situation. Next time someone doesn't ating at home, either keep it, dip it, or destroy it, it is up to you but either one you chose you will be a whole lot safer because you won't ever see your at job bite you in the arse at a later date whether you admitted it or not, whether it was assumed or not, whether it was intended or not. >>
Have you read both threads??? He did not "out" himself! He expressed concern the coins got slabbed because he had first-hand knowledge of their origin.
<< <i>I thought Shane was a partner in that new Coin Company ?
now I understand he is not any longer ?? >>
Shane announced on May 29th his affiliation was kaput....I'm pretty sure he posted it here (the BST forum, more specifically), there (ATS), and wherever else.
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay >>
The coins I sell on Ebay are on consignment....are you now trying to say that collectors from all over the country are ATing coins and sending them to me to sell on Ebay??? This is getting more rediculous by the minute. I am now in touch with a local attorney becuase I for one do not appreciate me name being drug through the mud buy folks who have no clue what they are talking about. For those doing the mud slinging I would be very careful about these accusations at this point.
If there is one person in the whole hobby of coins I look up to it would be Shane. Not a single question asked. He is great at what he does! Aslo you never have to worry about him making the snide remarks he has been bombarded with in these threads. So it hurts deeply to see so many people making silly remarks. If Shane was all of the things you guys say he is than he wouldn't have turned down a consignment. Consignments=Money. So he did everybody a favor at a cost to himself and people treat him like this. As for the lawyer comment....... Well lets just say he is very good friends with one of the best lawyers in coins and I applaud him for sticking up for himself.
PawPaul, I know I don't know you but I enjoy your mojo on this forum. With that said, you are out of line with the OP insinuating he sells many created, AT coins.
His photography technic aside, these coins here don't look like the silver dollars he offers.
Well Ill go on the record as saying I am a regular consignor with Shane! He gets great results and I will continue consigning to him because I appreciate the fact that he doesn't juice his photos and he is very honest...Matter of fact two days ago I sent him a $3500 consignment. I can assure you I didn't AT a single one of the coins in that consignment!
Hold the press there little buddy... Shane is one of the best people I have met on the NGC boards and on these boards. He's been into toned coins since the late '90s ( I believe that's correct), both as a collector of very high dollar Rainbow Morgan dollars and specializing in double mint sets as well... he's got the eye for finding gorgeous rainbow toners, raw or slabbed it doesn't matter.
Saying that, I know for a fact. 100% fact, that he hasn't been AT'ing coins and selling them on eBay. (Which the coins he sells are always PCGS and NGC graded coins). They are consignment coins and some coins from his personal collecting that he purchased off ebay, from coin shows, and from collectors alike that he sells on eBay. I have consigned quite a few coins to him with amazing communication, responsibility, and he shows great effort to make sure the consignee is very happy, and the buyer as well.
PawPaul, you were way out of line to say that Shane is AT'ing coins and selling them on eBay, purposely knowing the coins are AT make big bucks!
He is one of the most honest people I have met on these boards, including a few others, and he would never do such a thing.
All I can say, if you wanna deal with an honest toned coin dealer... look no farther than are very own Kyptonitecomics!
<< <i> Shane posted the pix above stating it was an A.T coin he made and got holdered by PCGS -
how did I get that wrong ??
and brother - I got eyes and I got skills ; and if you ask me : it looks very much like the coins he he is selling on eBay >>
It does look somewhat similar to the coins he has be selling on eBay, AS "CONSIGNMENTS!", but that's neither here nor there. I would need to see the obverse of this coin to tell better if it was AT or NT.
Shane sold the coins off many months ago on eBay raw as "junk silver" in the title. Inside the auction he included some AT'd coins that he did by using sulfur from matches and a heat source. He put into the description that the toned coins were indeed "Artificial Toning", or "ART Toning" which was actually said in the auction. I remember this auction lot very well. The AT'd coins looked AT to me and they fetched no premium, just silver value.
you have stated that you basically have one main consignor ;
whether you know/admit it or not - some of the coins you are selling are A.T -
and whomever is doing them has it down to a freaking science : they are virtually indistinguishable from the real Mc Coy's ! >>
I never said I have one main consignor??? At present I have about 10 to 15 regular consignors all from these boards and they send me everything from mint set toners to Morgans. I haven't bought a double mint set in probably 2 years and the last time I submitted (NGC) was probably 3 years or more. I have sent exactly 1 coin to PCGS in my life....and it was a blast white MS66 morgan in an old PCCI photo slab and it graded. I freeling admitted to experimenting with about 6 to 10 coins back in 2005 becuase that is one of the best ways to learn what to look for and it absolutely did. When the price of silver got high I decided to dump all I could becuase my daughter needs an operation so the experiments went into the junk lots like I said with full disclosure. The fact that you have the B-a-l-l-s to come on here and tell me you know I am getting graded AT coins from someone without a shread of proof is both amazing and sad. I have never had an issue with you in the past but you and a few others are going out of you way to smeer my name. So it's time to put up or shut up.....please post the proof that I am selling graded AT coins, and further more...please show me proof that I am submitting any coins for grading AT or otherwise.....and finally if you can't prove either of those...maybe stand up and admit you have no proof, be a man an apologize. You have a right to your opinion, think what you want, but to public make accusations of this nature is both reckless and irresponsible.
Comments
<< <i>No new revelations here.
Anyone remember the guy that had all of those yellow pan-fried modern commems holdered to prove a point? >>
Yes. Weren't they are #1 reg set and didn't he literally fry them in a pan? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Shane has been, and always will be, a stalwart numismatist on these Boards. I'd trust him with anything, as I would most that I deal with here. Let's keep an eye on the bigger picture here and get a grip. I have never met him. I don't have to. He is, and always has been, a man of his word and a man of honest action.
Think twice before throwing a man's integrity under the bus. Many of us would work for decades to develop the reputation he has earned.
Drunner
<< <i>While many here get their panties in a bunch,... >>
That's why I wear a thong... if it does bunch, it won't show through my capri pants!
<< <i>No one is talking destroying here, he should have just kept it or given it to a trusted friend or dipped it and then dump it out on the market. This thread just shows you that the coin docs can still get away with their trade unless they are outed by the dealers who are in the know and the PNG and whatever other watchdog group that exists for the so-called purposes of protecting the consumer/collector. I personally send my slabbed coins that are questionable to JA for his nod. >>
Didnt you say this previously ? "I would shove it, destroy it,"
yeah, he did golfer ... and then he went on to sing the praises of the sticker factory, which, BTW, makes mistakes too
but I really like some of dbcoin's comments the best, including this little gem
Buy the coins back and destroy them. Use a wire brush, sand paper, acid, a hammer and a nail, or dip them. Whatever.
yeah, ruin them further, or destroy them completely, that's the ticket
I was going to write a few other things, but I'll refrain
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Shane didn't slab them, someone else did
Unless destroyed, there is always the chance that the next owner will try to slab them
Whether or not they should even be sent in, or ultimately encapsulated is a different story altogether
Destroying coins, IMO, is absolutely not the answer
In fact, dipping the coin very well could have destroyed it more than just leaving it be
ps ... just because it is a 5 or 20 dollar coin, does not mean it does not deserve to be kept by someone, however they wish to keep it
editted to add ps
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>
<< <i>While many here get their panties in a bunch,... >>
That's why I wear a thong... if it does bunch, it won't show through my capri pants!
In an otherwise disappointing thread, clearly the post of the day. That was tremendous.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>and folks wonder why no one brings these topics up.....now I am the bad guy in all this because of about $20 worth of junk silver. I said it before and I will say it again...I don't own dip and their was full disclosure which is all anyone can do contrary to what is being posted in this thread. Please get out of the glass houses folks becuase your being rediculous with your frankenstein statements. >>
The coins were yours and you are free to do whatever you wish to do so as long as you are honest. You were, and you disclosed the AT toning in your auction description. I think people should stop whining and complaining about what they think you should have done. Why not criticize, instead, the many buyers who are too lazy to learn the difference among NT/AT/MA coins and who blindly rely on certified coins (and this isn't directed at anyone here). Everyone makes mistakes (i.e. PCGS), and so as long as you were open in disclosing this information, I say caveat emptor! Additionally, I think everyone here is overlooking the real issue: the epidemic of doctored coins that have been turning in all top TPGs holders. While no certification company will get it right 100%, this forum should serve as an impetus for the grading services and submitters to develop new technologies/methodologies to detect artificial toning and other chemical tampering. Any ideas?
and get's drug over here ,
.about admissions : and just happens to sell a ton of toned material on eBay
<< <i>odd to me "something" come's up across the street .........
and get's drug over here ,
.about admissions : and just happens to sell a ton of toned material on eBay >>
What are you implying, if anything, in the third line?
Has Krypto sold any TPG coins that HE PERSONALLY had knowledge that they were AT?
He can disclaim any adverse effects on the coins that he disclosed were AT'd when he sold them, but OTOH has he ALWAYS been so forthright? That may be as important....
Especially since I have been one of his customers!!!
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Finally if you think you yourself yeah those example look terrible but maybe he was perfecting his craft as a coin doctor.....as I know some will....please explain to me why in the heck I would come out and tell everyone that I experimented with toning coins and some accidentally got into holder. There is no one on this planet other than me that would be any wiser if I had simply sold the consigned coins on ebay. I had nothing to gain by my self admission other than a clear conscience and I chose to take the ethical route and not sell them and share my findings so that others would take there eyes off of tpg holders and examine coins more closely like I am doing.
Finally....the reason I did not start a thread over here should be fairly obvious...I like the forums and did not want to get the boot if someone from the PCGS leadership team took my admission and subsequent images of AT coins in their holders as a personal attack to make them look bad. I would submit that the same thing has probably happened just as much to NGC with bad coins getting into good holders I simply don't have the evidence in hand.
<< <i>The obvious next question is.........
Has Krypto sold any TPG coins that HE PERSONALLY had knowledge that they were AT?
He can disclaim any adverse effects on the coins that he disclosed were AT'd when he sold them, but OTOH has he ALWAYS been so forthright? That may be as important....
Especially since I have been one of his customers!!!
I would have to be the worst coin doctor in existence to out myself and also be a coin seller on the side....I mean please someone step up and explain how I benefit at all from outing myself if I was doing shady things in a lab. The only coins I personally know were AT'd is the five examples that were recently consigned....I have no clue if someone else sent me an AT coin and I sold it becuase it was already grade....I couldn't possibly know that unless the consignor told me and again I asked....why would a consignor tell me he coked up some coins and take a chance that I may not sell them or are we once again questioning my ethics???
I seriously have to wonder how much damage is done to this hobby simply by the personal attacks and accusations on these forums becuase doing the right thing and coming forward seems to be the worst decision I ever made. If you want the problem to get resolved then don't beat up the guy at the podium talking about the issue. Questions are fair...but please analyze the situation a bit more before throwing me under the bus as the one thing I am is honest to a fault.
You were in a catch 22. You gambled ATS that no one would say anything. You gambled and lost. A better course of action when your consignor sent your coins would have been for you to sell them to yourself and then take care of them. No one would have known and no one would have been harmed, except you ironically. Maybe that would have cost you at most $100. Was this bad PR worth that? At this point I still think that's the best course of action. If you return them, then he could sell them on Ebay and someone else will be harmed. He could attempt to collect on PCGS's warranty which harms investors.
So IMHO your biggest mistake was not your experiment, it was your lack of foresight. Continue to experiment, and learn. Then share your results for the rest of us to learn. Containing your creations within the laboratory is a must. Otherwise you might create a scenario akin to Stephen King's world in The Stand! Once the monster's out of the lab, you can never put it back. The good news is that even in that world the "good guys" win. BTW, learning is a good thing. Knowledge is power, and what you do with that knowledge is powerful. Sharing it makes us all better..........
Thanks,
Bob
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
<< <i>I think you outed yourself because you had no choice. If you sold coins that you knew in fact were dr'd by you, then you were/are a dr. If you returned them and explained to the guy the whole story and he got pissed and outed you here, it would have been worse for you.
You were in a catch 22. You gambled ATS that no one would say anything. You gambled and lost. A better course of action when your consignor sent your coins would have been for you to sell them to yourself and then take care of them. No one would have known and no one would have been harmed, except you ironically. Maybe that would have cost you at most $100. Was this bad PR worth that? At this point I still think that's the best course of action. If you return them, then he could sell them on Ebay and someone else will be harmed. He could attempt to collect on PCGS's warranty which harms investors. >>
This is so laughable it's not even funny...my consignor doesn't even post here....the coin collecting community does not begin and end with the PCGS coin forums. If I would have sold the coins only me and my conscience would have known...nobody else on the planet. Gambled across the street...are you kidding me???Half the folks that post over there post over here including me....there was no secret by posting over there but I tell you...the overal behavior over there is a lot better than over here and always have been. personal attacks and accusations are the norm over here....they are more rare over their period so I started my thread over there so folks wouldn't think i was trying to make PCGS look bad.
The rest of your rambling make no sense..bad PR?????...I feel like I am on mars reading some of these rediculous responses over here.
I will not post to this thread again as it's clear that there are folks with conspiracy theories and agendas that I will not waste my time on. Please feel free to think of me as you will and I won't lose any sleep over it...you probably hate santa and the easter bunny in your miserable existance on this planet
<< <i>Shane you simply put yourself between a rock and a hard place! Your first mistake, was simply letting the monsters out of your control. Perhaps you should have kept them as a reference tool, or posted them as a learning aid to those of us that do not experiment! Once you released them, you lost all control and opened yourself up to this predicament. Your decision to "out" yourself is a reflection of your character. A good reflection I might add.
So IMHO your biggest mistake was not your experiment, it was your lack of foresight. Continue to experiment, and learn. Then share your results for the rest of us to learn. Containing your creations within the laboratory is a must. Otherwise you might create a scenario akin to Stephen King's world in The Stand! Once the monster's out of the lab, you can never put it back. The good news is that even in that world the "good guys" win. BTW, learning is a good thing. Knowledge is power, and what you do with that knowledge is powerful. Sharing it makes us all better..........
Thanks,
Bob
I keep hearing the term "mistake." In my opinion he didn't err, and he had no responsibility, legal, moral, or otherwise, to do anything other than to disclose this fact to the purchaser. He did this, and there was no fraudulent intent nor was there a misrepresentation of the nature of the toning to the buyer; thus, there is no moral issue on his part. He is free to do whatever he wishes with his coins. Second of all, if anyone is immoral, it is the person who slabbed the coins knowing that they were artificially toned and attempted to pass them off. Third, buyers should take a little initiative on their own before embarking in any serious financial transaction. If you are unprepared or naive, then you deserve whatever you get. Caveat emptor! Finally, I'm not sure why there is so much criticism directed at Shane, and quite frankly, many of the comments on here are defamatory. I hope PCGS sees this thread for what it truly is and removes it. The only "mistake" that I can think of is that Shane actually felt badly and/or compelled to release this information. Instead, a good guy tried to do the right thing, even going beyond the call of duty/ethics, and in the process he ends up getting burned. And for the record, I would NOT offer to refund anyone's money. Once the coins left your hands, you no longer have any responsibility with how a SUBSEQUENT buyer represents your items.
And Shane, I wouldn't really worry about it. You already have an established clientele that will stick by you. The few naysayers that may not purchase coins from you are probably mad and insecure because they couldn't tell AT from MA/NT if their life depended on it. Their money and the resulting annoyance they would bring isn't worth it. And as future advice, I would not disclose anything to anyone anymore. If you truly feel badly that experimental pieces were released (which you shouldn't) then quietly buy them back, and voila - the issue goes away! I also hope that you don't let the posters who criticize you cause you to stop selling coins - I have been and will continue to be one of your customers.
Russ, NCNE
The only "fiasco" within didn't generate from the OP but rather many of this thread's participants.
I can comment on my one buying experience with Shane, and although just one, for me it was a big one. A beautiful mint bag toned Morgan in a PCGS holder that I then sent to CAC and got stickered. I love the coin, the experience with Shane was top notch. In the last couple of years I have paid attention to his posts and comments he has made in others regarding coin toning and I have trusted them and respected his opinion. NONE of that changes with me. Thinking that he is "outing" himself out of guilt and then this spiraling into fear and accusations is unwarranted and before this goes on further, I think any other poster to this thread should think strongly about their words as they can be permanent and damaging to one's personal reputation and livelihood.
<< <i>The (over)reaction of this thread was so frick'en predictable.
The only "fiasco" within didn't generate from the OP but rather many of this thread's participants. >>
This. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>This is a discussion board. Someone can't expect to start a discussion and not have many opinions coime out expected or unexpected. It is a free country to express one's opinion on a thread someone stated.
I would still by from the subject of this conversation, that hasn't changed. And the fact that he ated some coins is not at issue, what you do in your own home or anywhere else is fine with me, experimenting for one's edcuation is perfectly fine, not my business or should it be anybody else's, I mean how is someone really goignt o lear how to detect at if they don't try duplicating them themselves.
By opinion is simple, when you sell a known ated coin, known here means you absolutely know it because you ated it yourself that is fool hardy because it could bite you in the arse int he future. Why sell it? Why put oneself in that future unpredictable position, Is this hindsight 20-20 knowing how sensitive this issue is to the hobby...I don't think so...I think it is red hot but that ijmho. If I were the op I would have kept them as they were supposedly intended, a learning experience, no reason to sell tham at all. When one says they were sold with full disclosure, well my response is so what. First one must trust you on your word and second that is a statement one would have to make in order to justify the sale to most here. But the whole point is to think in advance, to understand whether it is sold with full disclosure or not, it deosn't really matter becasue the point is what may happen later. You know that the buyer can do anything he wants with his coins, just like you can with yours. But his responsibility is different than yours, you were the creator, you had the knowldege, and all I am saying is that you should have held on to your at products for your own protection.
I respect the fact that you outed yourself, why you did is hard to really say, only you know what motivated you to do such a thing and I won't even try to figure that out although many have opined to that one. But you did, it is out of the bag so what shall we all do with it. I say lets all learn from this situation. Next time someone doesn't ating at home, either keep it, dip it, or destroy it, it is up to you but either one you chose you will be a whole lot safer because you won't ever see your at job bite you in the arse at a later date whether you admitted it or not, whether it was assumed or not, whether it was intended or not.
I have full respect for this individual and believe in truning negatives into positives, this has beena great eye opening experience on an obviously very senstive subject for a lot of viewers. But lets not make this more than it is. Dr Frankenstein he is not, and his monster(s) are pretty harmless in the realm of things.
Ah, jeez.
<< <i>I respect the fact that you outed yourself, why you did is hard to really say, only you know what motivated you to do such a thing and I won't even try to figure that out although many have opined to that one. But you did, it is out of the bag so what shall we all do with it. I say lets all learn from this situation. Next time someone doesn't ating at home, either keep it, dip it, or destroy it, it is up to you but either one you chose you will be a whole lot safer because you won't ever see your at job bite you in the arse at a later date whether you admitted it or not, whether it was assumed or not, whether it was intended or not.
>>
Have you read both threads??? He did not "out" himself! He expressed concern the coins got slabbed because he had first-hand knowledge of their origin.
<< <i>
Please feel free to think of me as you will >>
Consider it done
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I thought Shane was a partner in that new Coin Company ?
now I understand he is not any longer ??
this is a pix of a admitted A.T coin ,
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay
<< <i>I thought Shane was a partner in that new Coin Company ?
now I understand he is not any longer ?? >>
Shane announced on May 29th his affiliation was kaput....I'm pretty sure he posted it here (the BST forum, more specifically), there (ATS), and wherever else.
<< <i>
this is a pix of a admitted A.T coin ,
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay >>
The coins I sell on Ebay are on consignment....are you now trying to say that collectors from all over the country are ATing coins and sending them to me to sell on Ebay??? This is getting more rediculous by the minute. I am now in touch with a local attorney becuase I for one do not appreciate me name being drug through the mud buy folks who have no clue what they are talking about. For those doing the mud slinging I would be very careful about these accusations at this point.
<< <i>
this is a pix of a admitted A.T coin ,
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay >>
Your posts are not only dead wrong, but they are dangerously close to defamation/libel per se.
<< <i>
I am now in touch with a local attorney >>
Sure you are.
<< <i>they are dangerously close to defamation/libel per se. >>
I thought defamation/libel could get you bammed on these forums?
<< <i>
<< <i>they are dangerously close to defamation/libel per se. >>
I thought defamation/libel could get you bammed on these forums? >>
The thing that surprises me the most is that PCGS hasn't removed this thread.
<< <i>
this is a pix of a admitted A.T coin ,
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay >>
Thats just dead wrong. You clearly have no stinking clue
With that said, you are out of line with the OP insinuating he sells many created, AT coins.
His photography technic aside, these coins here don't look like the silver dollars he offers.
You owe him a public apology.
you have stated that you basically have one main consignor ;
whether you know/admit it or not - some of the coins you are selling are A.T -
and whomever is doing them has it down to a freaking science : they are virtually indistinguishable from the real Mc Coy's !
<< <i>
<< <i>
this is a pix of a admitted A.T coin ,
which if you ask me - looks a hellova lot like a hellova lot of coins Shane sells on eBay >>
Your posts are not only dead wrong, but they are dangerously close to defamation/libel per se. >>
Shane posted the pix above stating it was an A.T coin he made and got holdered by PCGS -
how did I get that wrong ??
and brother - I got eyes and I got skills ; and if you ask me : it looks very much like the coins he he is selling on eBay
<< <i>I'm sure Shane is a great feller >>
Hold the press there little buddy... Shane is one of the best people I have met on the NGC boards and on these boards. He's been into toned coins since the late '90s ( I believe that's correct), both as a collector of very high dollar Rainbow Morgan dollars and specializing in double mint sets as well... he's got the eye for finding gorgeous rainbow toners, raw or slabbed it doesn't matter.
Saying that, I know for a fact. 100% fact, that he hasn't been AT'ing coins and selling them on eBay. (Which the coins he sells are always PCGS and NGC graded coins). They are consignment coins and some coins from his personal collecting that he purchased off ebay, from coin shows, and from collectors alike that he sells on eBay. I have consigned quite a few coins to him with amazing communication, responsibility, and he shows great effort to make sure the consignee is very happy, and the buyer as well.
PawPaul, you were way out of line to say that Shane is AT'ing coins and selling them on eBay, purposely knowing the coins are AT make big bucks!
He is one of the most honest people I have met on these boards, including a few others, and he would never do such a thing.
All I can say, if you wanna deal with an honest toned coin dealer... look no farther than are very own Kyptonitecomics!
<< <i> Shane posted the pix above stating it was an A.T coin he made and got holdered by PCGS -
how did I get that wrong ??
and brother - I got eyes and I got skills ; and if you ask me : it looks very much like the coins he he is selling on eBay >>
It does look somewhat similar to the coins he has be selling on eBay, AS "CONSIGNMENTS!", but that's neither here nor there. I would need to see the obverse of this coin to tell better if it was AT or NT.
Shane sold the coins off many months ago on eBay raw as "junk silver" in the title. Inside the auction he included some AT'd coins that he did by using sulfur from matches and a heat source. He put into the description that the toned coins were indeed "Artificial Toning", or "ART Toning" which was actually said in the auction. I remember this auction lot very well. The AT'd coins looked AT to me and they fetched no premium, just silver value.
"
<< <i>Shane ,
you have stated that you basically have one main consignor ;
whether you know/admit it or not - some of the coins you are selling are A.T -
and whomever is doing them has it down to a freaking science : they are virtually indistinguishable from the real Mc Coy's ! >>
I never said I have one main consignor??? At present I have about 10 to 15 regular consignors all from these boards and they send me everything from mint set toners to Morgans. I haven't bought a double mint set in probably 2 years and the last time I submitted (NGC) was probably 3 years or more. I have sent exactly 1 coin to PCGS in my life....and it was a blast white MS66 morgan in an old PCCI photo slab and it graded. I freeling admitted to experimenting with about 6 to 10 coins back in 2005 becuase that is one of the best ways to learn what to look for and it absolutely did. When the price of silver got high I decided to dump all I could becuase my daughter needs an operation so the experiments went into the junk lots like I said with full disclosure. The fact that you have the B-a-l-l-s to come on here and tell me you know I am getting graded AT coins from someone without a shread of proof is both amazing and sad. I have never had an issue with you in the past but you and a few others are going out of you way to smeer my name. So it's time to put up or shut up.....please post the proof that I am selling graded AT coins, and further more...please show me proof that I am submitting any coins for grading AT or otherwise.....and finally if you can't prove either of those...maybe stand up and admit you have no proof, be a man an apologize. You have a right to your opinion, think what you want, but to public make accusations of this nature is both reckless and irresponsible.
Pony Up !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5