ebay seller FRAUD-seriouscoins crackout

greyfox59 · May 20, 2011 1:10AM

Hello, recently victimized by the fraud artist on ebay user SERIOUSCOINS was hoping for help here. Ebay not stands by this marginally criminal activity but actually rewards it by the removing of negative feedback and blocking of my account. This seller currently has at least 3 four figure coins that have been recent auction house sales of problem coins (whizzed, damaged, cleaned) that have been cracked out and being sold on ebay as problem free raw high grade coins (some listed as BU). One in particular, an 1839-O half, came from Teletrade, Auction 3064 • Lot 1393 • Wednesday, May 11, 2011, a NGC details cleaned AU and sold for $1100. Now cracked out and sold as BU currently on ebay. I was scammed and attempted return of a surface damaged 1893 silver dollar that was sold as high grade au but seller has no return policy except for authenticity. And ebay allies with this con artist. What can one do to stop this activity or at least get word out to the buying community that this guy is a SCAMMER? PLEASE SEE THIS CON'S current ebay listings and compare them to HA, teltrade, and bowers recent sales. The 1839-O half is indisputably the same teletrade coin, (easily identifiable especially by the 3 digs in the field to the upper right of Liberty's shoulder)
I am relatively new to this posting if pictures and such but I think the following 2 links may work to compare:

http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=3064&lot=1393&imagetype=j2

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=110687869604þ

DennisH · May 20, 2011 1:18AM

What can one do? I'll start a list of suggestions:

Educate one's self, learn to grade, be highly suspicious of expensive raw coins on eBay, totally avoid sellers with chickens**t return policies.

kiyote · May 20, 2011 1:19AM

Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level!

derryb · May 20, 2011 1:24AM

Fixed link to your purchase

What exactly was the wording of your feedback removed by ebay? How you word your feedback determines if it sticks. In your case I would have said "buyer beware, cleaned coins."

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

OP backs it with evidence in his post.

mrpotatoheadd · May 20, 2011 1:24AM

Can't help you with the eBay part, but in the future, if you want the option to return a coin that's not satisfactory, I'd suggest you limit your bidding to auctions where sellers accept returns.

ianrussell · May 20, 2011 1:27AM

<< Can't help you with the eBay part, but in the future, if you want the option to return a coin that's not satisfactory, I'd suggest you limit your bidding to auctions where sellers accept returns. >>

And limit to buying certified coins only.

- Ian

mbogoman · May 20, 2011 1:29AM

<< Hello, recently victimized by the fraud artist on ebay user SERIOUSCOINS was hoping for help here. >>

No offense, but can you translate, please? There are about three different ways to interpret this collection of words. Is user SERIOUSCOINS hoping for help? Is SERIOUSCOINS the fraud artist? Who was victimized? Please forgive me - I don't mean to be the English policeman, but sometimes it's REALLY HARD to figure out the intended message...

Ahrensdad · May 20, 2011 1:30AM

greyfox59,
First, welcome to the forum. This can be a great place to learn about coins and the hobby. I'm sorry that you've had to learn the hard way. Not sure how any of us can help with what's already done. This has been an old issue in the hobby. The best thing to do for yourself is to be armed with information, and buy from those that will stand by what they are selling with a reasonable return policy. Not to mention buying certified coins from ebay, and raw when you can see the coin in hand, and know what you're looking at.

I wish you all the best in your collecting.

-Andrew

edit for grammer and content

OKbustchaser · May 20, 2011 1:36AM

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

<< OP backs it with evidence in his post. >>

Where is any evidence of fraud in his post? He received exactly what the seller claimed he would receive--a raw 1893 silver dollar.

coirn · May 20, 2011 1:37AM

<< What can one do? I'll start a list of suggestions:

Educate one's self, learn to grade, be highly suspicious of expensive raw coins on eBay, totally avoid sellers with chickens**t return policies. >>

All sage advice but really, from an eBay photo? The grading expertise kicks in when the coin arrives and then it's too late. It appears greyfox59 does know how to grade as he noticed the problems upon receiving the coin.
greyfox59 is a true victim in every sense of the world. Anyone could fall prey on the scam "Seriouscoins" is perpetrating.
With that stated though, it is easy to justify the seller's actions with the simple quote, "I believe the Grading Service was wrong in their assessment of the coin and that I am right". That one 'belief' sadly relieves the seller of almost all accountability.

Tiny · May 20, 2011 1:42AM

The seller does ues the word "Genuine" many times in the auction but spending
that kind of money from a picture and not in hand is not what I would do. The coin
maybe hard to find but keep the quest up before buying like this. The seller is like
many dealers in that they find a Genuine or Details coin and crack it out in hopes of
a profit by not letting you know that a TPG would not grade it. Most dealers would
leave the coin in the holder and let you make your own decision. Too bad that you
feel wronged by the person but you have learned from this I can hope.

Welcome To The Boards the hard way it's gets better every day.

coirn · May 20, 2011 1:43AM

In checking some of the seller's listing I came across this 1922 Lincoln cent.
It was wise of the seller to keep this problem coin in its slab.
Interesting though as he refers to the problem as simply, "questionable color". Not accurate. Genuine Code 94 represents 'Altered Surfaces'. It is Genuine Code 91 that represents 'Questionable Color'. Probably a small distinction, but this seller knows his coins (I get that by reading his other
auction descriptions, such as the raw three-legged Buffalo nickel and the adjectives used within) so you have to ask yourself, "what is his motive?".

PerryHall · May 20, 2011 1:48AM

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

Yes but if the shoe fits...............

streeter · May 20, 2011 1:48AM

greyfox, you've posted to other internet chat rooms so you've alerted the world to your transaction.

rule #1. there is no Santa Claus or free lunch in numismatics. When you buy off a photo on Ebay and with no return policy...all you are doing is just rolling the dice and HOPING for the best.

I empathize with your situation, I've been caught in the same trap and it's a lousy feeling.

Please educate yourself before you spend more money. The coin world can wait until you ---buy the book before you buy the coin.

Ian suggested the best course of action, stick to PCGS and NGC coins until you feel that you want to swim in different waters.

regards

DennisH · May 20, 2011 1:49AM

The seller's motive is profit via intentional omission of known information, and an absence of ethics and candor that have the net effect of misrepresentation and deception.

OKbustchaser · May 20, 2011 1:52AM

<< 

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

Yes but if the shoe fits............... >>

The problem is though, in this particular case the shoe doesn't appear to fit. He received exactly what he paid for.

LindeDad · May 20, 2011 1:53AM

Old rule to myself if it's worth more than a C-note it's worth being slabbed by either PCGS or NGC or I'm not buying.

BTW buying a problem coin years ago led me to this forum so

aboard hope the first lesson does not ruin the journey.

coirn · May 20, 2011 2:02AM

<< The seller's motive is profit via intentional omission of known information, and an absence of ethics and candor that have the net effect of misrepresentation and deception. >>

^This.

telephoto1 · May 20, 2011 2:02AM

OP...if you paid via Paypal funded by a credit card, then it doesn't matter what the guy's return policy is. If a SNAD claim with Paypal doesn't work, filing a chargeback with the CC company for item not as described should get you your $ back.
Of course, if you paid via check or money order, that's a different story...

Edit to add... if you've had your account suspended perhaps there is more to this story...

derryb · May 20, 2011 2:04AM

<< 

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

<< OP backs it with evidence in his post. >>

Where is any evidence of fraud in his post? He received exactly what the seller claimed he would receive--a raw 1893 silver dollar. >>

OP posted links to sellers description and photo of the coin in its slab. When a seller removes a coin from a holder that has been certified by NGC as "AU Details Improperly Cleaned" and markets it as "Original, BU+ (BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED +) CONDITION," and purposely hides a known cleaning of the coin, it is fraud.

Glad you weren't on the Madoff jury.

ElKevvo · May 20, 2011 2:07AM

I have to agree with the other posters that the seller, although failing to mention the coins history and cleaning, did not engage in outright fraud. That might not be what you want to hear but unfortunately that is the case IMO.

That being said you are not the only one who has gone through this...many of us here on these boards have been burned buying on fleabay raw coins from sellers who gave evasive descriptions or posted juiced photos etc. You are not the first and will not be the last that is for sure!

Anyway welcome to the forums...what DennisH said is sage advice...view your experience with the coin as a learning experience. You can always sell it on eBay (of course noting its short comings) and will get probably a good percentage of what you paid for it or just keep it and chalk it up to tuition (I have a couple learning coins!).

K

mrpotatoheadd · May 20, 2011 2:11AM

Everything a buyer needs to know in order to avoid problems like this is included in this seller's return policy.

mingot · May 20, 2011 2:13AM

I enjoy these threads because they definitely give me an education on who not to buy from. Both on ebay and here.

mbogoman · May 20, 2011 2:17AM

Welcome greyfox59, and sorry if I was too hard on your writing earlier. I'm a bit confused as to which coin we are all referring to above (1893 dollar or 1839 o half). After looking at the coin description in the auction listing for the 1839-O half, this screams SNAD to me. Many times he refers to the "BU+ condition", "original" and "original luster". Whether or not he offers returns is meaningless; the fact is he sold you a cleaned coin and did not advertise it as so. That is significantly not as described in my book. Collect your evidence (i.e. the auction house records prior to your purchase), get all your ducks in a row beforehand and start the SNAD process.

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 2:17AM

You were the buyer and eBay deleted your FB to the seller AND suspended your account?
There's more here than you are telling.
In any event, I refuse to do business with anyone who doesn't accepts returns, regardless of the reason.
If the seller misrepresented the item, I expect them to pay the return postage too!
If I get the coin and for some reason don't like it, I'll pay the return postage and chalk it up to experience.
Bottom line: if you are paying more than $100 or so for a coin (bullion excluded), it's best to bid only on TPG certified coins.
Unless, of course, you feel confident in your grading and counterfeit detection abilities AND the seller accepts returns AND the seller has a decent FB rating.
But it's your money, so feel free to roll the dice if you want.

kiyote · May 20, 2011 2:22AM

In the seller's defense, I wish *all* raw coins on eBay had that good of a photo. You can tell from the photo pretty clearly what's going on here-- he didn't use bigfoot film to make it blurry to try and hide anything.

TPRC · May 20, 2011 2:24AM

<< I have to agree with the other posters that the seller, although failing to mention the coins history and cleaning, did not engage in outright fraud. That might not be what you want to hear but unfortunately that is the case IMO.

That being said you are not the only one who has gone through this...many of us here on these boards have been burned buying on fleabay raw coins from sellers who gave evasive descriptions or posted juiced photos etc. You are not the first and will not be the last that is for sure!

Anyway welcome to the forums...what DennisH said is sage advice...view your experience with the coin as a learning experience. You can always sell it on eBay (of course noting its short comings) and will get probably a good percentage of what you paid for it or just keep it and chalk it up to tuition (I have a couple learning coins!).

K >>

I basically agree.

In most jurisdictions, to recover on fraud charges a party must allege and prove : (a) a false representation; (b) of material fact; (c) made intentionally and knowingly; (d) with intent to mislead; (e) which the plaintiff reasonably relied; (f) resulting in damage to the plaintiff. In most jurisdictions, fraud must be proven by clear and convincing evidence, and not by a mere preponderance of evidence.

While this might be fraud, the difficulty of proof makes it an impossible case and probably an un-winnable case, unless you had experienced collectors on the jury.

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 2:24AM

I looked up the seller on eBay - he has a 100% FB and stellar DSRs.
OTOH I looked at some of his auctions in which he states:
"AS ALWAYS, WE FULLY GUARANTEE THAT COIN SHOWN IS ACTUAL COIN BEING OFFERED. OTHER THAN GUARANTEES STATED, ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL."
Which is in reality no guarantee at all and would preclude my doing business with him under any circumstances.
There are very few unique coins, so another example will always come along and there is no reason to buy from anyone who won't stand 100% behind to coins he sells.

19Lyds · May 20, 2011 2:36AM

<< 

<< I have to agree with the other posters that the seller, although failing to mention the coins history and cleaning, did not engage in outright fraud. That might not be what you want to hear but unfortunately that is the case IMO.

That being said you are not the only one who has gone through this...many of us here on these boards have been burned buying on fleabay raw coins from sellers who gave evasive descriptions or posted juiced photos etc. You are not the first and will not be the last that is for sure!

Anyway welcome to the forums...what DennisH said is sage advice...view your experience with the coin as a learning experience. You can always sell it on eBay (of course noting its short comings) and will get probably a good percentage of what you paid for it or just keep it and chalk it up to tuition (I have a couple learning coins!).

K >>

I basically agree.

In most jurisdictions, to recover on fraud charges a party must allege and prove : (a) a false representation; (b) of material fact; (c) made intentionally and knowingly; (d) with intent to mislead; (e) which the plaintiff reasonably relied; (f) resulting in damage to the plaintiff. In most jurisdictions, fraud must be proven by clear and convincing evidence, and not by a mere preponderance of evidence.

While this might be fraud, the difficulty of proof makes it an impossible case and probably an un-winnable case, unless you had experienced collectors on the jury. >>

I really disagree that seriouscoins didn't commit fraud since, at least in the auction for the 1839-O, he specifically states that the coin is NOT TPG graded yet it had been previously graded as "Improperly Cleaned" and therefore ungradeable by NGC.

Since fraud is the intent to deceive, exactly how is this NOT deceiving potential buyers?

Additionally, the coin was bought off of Teletrade as an AU Details grade yet the seller is advertising it as "A SPECTACULAR MONSTER IN BU+ NEAR GEM MINT STATE"

My advice to the OP is if eBay will not back your return then file an "Item Not as Described" with PayPal.

Folks that continue to back these fraudulent sellers that continually buy details graded or PCGS Genuine coins, then crack them out and sell them as original should really rethink their positions. Yes it's a buy beware market but deception is deception regardless of the experience level of the buyer.

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 2:43AM

Since I last posted it seems the seller made all his auctions "private"?!? Is that possible to do after the fact?
I don't trust sellers with private auctions.
No aspersions on sellers that do it, I just don't feel comfortable bidding on their items.

fiveNdime · May 20, 2011 2:46AM

i too learned this lesson the same way, albeit on an inexpensive coin.
it was a 'terrific' learning experience, which is also what led me here.
getting an education here is significantly cheaper.

<< Folks that continue to back these fraudulent sellers that continually buy details graded or PCGS Genuine coins, then crack them out and sell them as original should really rethink their positions. Yes it's a buy beware market but deception is deception regardless of the experience level of the buyer. >>

class dissmissed!

19Lyds · May 20, 2011 2:51AM

<< Since I last posted it seems the seller made all his auctions "private"?!? Is that possible to do after the fact?
I don't trust sellers with private auctions.
No aspersions on sellers that do it, I just don't feel comfortable bidding on their items. >>

It is intuitively obvious that this scammer reads forums and does not want folks to follow his activities any longer which means I "could" assume that he has done this in the past and now wants to cover his tracks.

At least, thats the way it appears.

OKbustchaser · May 20, 2011 3:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< Fraud is a pretty hefty charge to level! >>

<< OP backs it with evidence in his post. >>

Where is any evidence of fraud in his post? He received exactly what the seller claimed he would receive--a raw 1893 silver dollar. >>

OP posted links to sellers description and photo of the coin in its slab. When a seller removes a coin from a holder that has been certified by NGC as "AU Details Improperly Cleaned" and markets it as "Original, BU+ (BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED +) CONDITION," and purposely hides a known cleaning of the coin, it is fraud.

Glad you weren't on the Madoff jury.

>>

No, the OP posted a link to the seller's description of the coin currently listed for sale by the seller. Nowhere in that listing does the seller claim that it is anything at all other than what it is. He does state his opinion that it is a BU+ coin, but his opinion is just exactly that--an opinion--one which he is just as entitled to hold as the (no longer valid) OPINION from NGC.

Folks, TPG opinions NO LONGER EXIST after a coin is removed from the slab. Claiming that such an opinion does still exist actually is what would be fraud in this case.

OPA · May 20, 2011 3:22AM

Sellers auctions are all private....

Seller also has a history over the years for selling questionable coins...see the received FB

Feed back on toolhaus

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 3:45AM

<< Sellers auctions are all private.... >>

That simply is not the case on eBay.
For most sellers you can look at their feedback as a seller and "View Item".
For the seller mentioned by the OP, the "View Item" is replaced with "Private", thereby not allowing potential customers to see what he's been up to.
The seller's propensity for private auctions and a guarantee so weak as to be absurd would keep me from bidding on his items, regardless of how attractive the deal may seem.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · May 20, 2011 3:46AM

It's certainly frustrating, but what he's doing is in accordance with the rules of eBay and within the parameters of the law.

This is not fraud because the opinion of NGC is not an objective fact about the coin, it is just NGC's opinion about the coin.

segoja · May 20, 2011 4:08AM

So the buyer knows everything listed in the original post and STILL bought the item???

I think I have to side with the seller here based on what I see. Something is missing as well.

drwstr123 · May 20, 2011 4:15AM

greyfox59 -
Welcome to the Monkey House.

19Lyds · May 20, 2011 4:16AM

<< ................ but what he's doing is in accordance with the rules of eBay ...................... >>

From Ebays Coin Selling Policy page:

What are the guidelines?
Coins and paper money

Keep the following guidelines in mind when you’re listing coins and paper money:

o Include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition.
o Include a clear picture of the actual item being sold—don't use only stock pictures.
o Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the item.
o Individually identify every item listed to avoid misunderstandings about what is for sale.
o Don’t list the item if you’re unsure of its origin or authenticity.

segoja · May 20, 2011 4:24AM

Do we know for fact this seller was the buyer and cracked the coins out?

So if I buy a proof coin with a little toning and dip it, I'm obligated by E-Bay rules to declare that? Right...that'll happen.

roadrunner · May 20, 2011 4:59AM

Anyone buying such a coin as unc or BU on their own has no business buying coins. It screams cleaned AU all day long.

If you must buy coins that cost some serious dough, only buy slabbed PCGS and NGC coins. And if you can't tell solid coins from
low end coins in the holder, don't do this either without some help from a trusted mentor.

roadrunner

OPA · May 20, 2011 5:41AM

<< 

<< Sellers auctions are all private.... >>

That simply is not the case on eBay.
For most sellers you can look at their feedback as a seller and "View Item".
For the seller mentioned by the OP, the "View Item" is replaced with "Private", thereby not allowing potential customers to see what he's been up to.
The seller's propensity for private auctions and a guarantee so weak as to be absurd would keep me from bidding on his items, regardless of how attractive the deal may seem. >>

You are confused with the private feed back & not private auctions. A seller cannot have the private feedback option, but private auctions are allowed and for high price items not uncommon.

You can view all of his ongoing auctions, but not the completed ones.

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 6:16AM

<< 

<< 

<< Sellers auctions are all private.... >>

That simply is not the case on eBay.
For most sellers you can look at their feedback as a seller and "View Item".
For the seller mentioned by the OP, the "View Item" is replaced with "Private", thereby not allowing potential customers to see what he's been up to.
The seller's propensity for private auctions and a guarantee so weak as to be absurd would keep me from bidding on his items, regardless of how attractive the deal may seem. >>

You are confused with the private feed back & not private auctions. A seller cannot have the private feedback option, but private auctions are allowed and for high price items not uncommon.
You can view all of his ongoing auctions, but not the completed ones. >>

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
I know the difference between private FB and private auctions.
My point was that I generally choose not to bid on private auctions or deal with sellers for whom I can not assess what they've been selling.

OPA · May 20, 2011 7:07AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Sellers auctions are all private.... >>

That simply is not the case on eBay.
For most sellers you can look at their feedback as a seller and "View Item".
For the seller mentioned by the OP, the "View Item" is replaced with "Private", thereby not allowing potential customers to see what he's been up to.
The seller's propensity for private auctions and a guarantee so weak as to be absurd would keep me from bidding on his items, regardless of how attractive the deal may seem. >>

You are confused with the private feed back & not private auctions. A seller cannot have the private feedback option, but private auctions are allowed and for high price items not uncommon.
You can view all of his ongoing auctions, but not the completed ones. >>

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
I know the difference between private FB and private auctions.
My point was that I generally choose not to bid on private auctions or deal with sellers for whom I can not assess what they've been selling. >>

I suspect that you do not bid on higher priced items or bullion valued over $1500 on eBay..Having the auction private, avoids potential scams perpetrated against the buyer(s), even after leaving FB, the purchase is not known. All my auctions for bullion related items over $1500 are private & my customers prefer it that way.

derryb · May 20, 2011 7:35AM

<< This is not fraud because the opinion of NGC is not an objective fact about the coin, it is just NGC's opinion about the coin. >>

It is a fact that the coin was professionally graded AU Details, Improperly Cleaned by a reputable TPG. Purposely hiding that fact by removing the coin from the holder and presenting it as something else ("original BU+") is deceiving and fraudulent. No different than removing a Kmart label from clothing and selling it as a designer brand. Seller should be ashamed of himself. Buyer is also at fault for doing his research on the coin after he purchased it.

Bobbo50 · May 20, 2011 7:39AM

<< I suspect that you do not bid on higher priced items or bullion valued over $1500 on eBay..Having the auction private, avoids potential scams perpetrated against the buyer(s), even after leaving FB, the purchase is not known. All my auctions for bullion related items over $1500 are private & my customers prefer it that way. >>

My spending habits are not relevant to my opinion on private auction.
There is no fact or extrapolation of fact that would make it so.
YMMV

mrpotatoheadd · May 20, 2011 8:28AM

<< It is a fact that the coin was professionally graded AU Details, Improperly Cleaned by a reputable TPG. >>

Devil's advocate time...

That fact might be telling, if it's true there are no coins that have ever been graded such, which upon a regrade, ended up in a graded holder.

Is that true?

derryb · May 20, 2011 8:50AM

<< 

<< It is a fact that the coin was professionally graded AU Details, Improperly Cleaned by a reputable TPG. >>

Devil's advocate time...

That fact might be telling, if it's true there are no coins that have ever been graded such, which upon a regrade, ended up in a graded holder.

Is that true? >>

I'm not saying the NGC grade is factual. I am saying that it was graded is a fact and that fact has been purposely hidden by the seller in an effort to profit when he knows a proffessional opinion called the coin something much less than he is calling it. It is a fact that NGC called in cleaned and this seriously impacts its resell value. Seller misrepresented coin's value by using deceptive means. His feeback history at toolhaus indicates he regularly misrepresents his coins.

RobertS · May 20, 2011 8:51AM

Greyfox,

Ignore all the naysayers, plenty of good people on the forum but there are also some that get their rocks off by putting people down. I am not sure how you payed for this, if you used paypal then dispute with paypal. If paypal does nothing then dispute with your credit card company. For future reference if you have an American express always pay with that, they are better at resolving disputes favorably to their card holders. If both those items fail, go to your local court and file a small claims lawsuit. Make the thief spend his money hiring an attorney... I know it sounds like I am litigious, but unless someone sues him and makes him pay he will continue scamming people.

If he does not show to court or answer the lawsuit, you win a judgement. Equipped with the judgement have a sheriff sale of the scammers double wide trailer to get your cash back.

19Lyds · May 20, 2011 8:53AM

<< 

<< It is a fact that the coin was professionally graded AU Details, Improperly Cleaned by a reputable TPG. >>

Devil's advocate time...

That fact might be telling, if it's true there are no coins that have ever been graded such, which upon a regrade, ended up in a graded holder.

Is that true? >>

No. Obviously not but it is a helpful piece of information that would govern bidders bids.

An ethical seller would disclose that fact.

Russ · May 20, 2011 8:55AM

<< Sellers auctions are all private....

Seller also has a history over the years for selling questionable coins...see the received FB

Feed back on toolhaus >>

Yep, the 12 month feedback thing implemented three years ago serves well to hide past transgressions.

Russ, NCNE

ebay seller FRAUD-seriouscoins crackout

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