<< <i>The seller's motive is profit via intentional omission of known information, and an absence of ethics and candor that have the net effect of misrepresentation and deception. >>
It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
I have read all of the messages in this thread with a degree of disappointment.
Firstly, there is no reason to blame the original poster for buying the coin and secondly fraud and fraudulent misrepresentation is what this thread is actually about, never mind eBay rules or caveat emptor - meaningless - this is about fraud.
seriouscoins is a crook and there is strong evidence to suggest that he has always been.
In the last three weeks, eBay has had to deal with 42 reports of listing violations about this crook, all of them about crackouts, mainly bought from Teletrade and Heritage and the coins were all originally graded as problem coins, whizzed, cleaned, harshly cleaned etc, but the crook failed to mention this in any of the listings and instead chose to write a glowing and of course, lying description for each coin, claiming that it was a raw coin. In one case, the buyer paid $5,500 but the crook only paid $2,500. These reports only cover a period of 90 days, only because eBay does not allow us to see earlier listings.
At the time of writing, eBay has removed 27 listings, including that mentioned by the original poster, the 1839-O and I anticipate that the rest will be removed.
This is one of the biggest crooks I have ever come across on eBay. Let's hope that eBay see it that way and finally close his account.
A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I have seriouscoins as a saved seller in my ebay account, but have never purchased from him. I like to look at what he has and have often wondered where he was getting all the "high end" coins. Now I know.
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information?
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
I sent the seller a message saying I wouldn't be bidding on his coins because I like my coins to have a sense of humor and not be so serious all the time,
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information? >>
I would never buy a car without having a return privilege or having my mechanic check it first. It's obvious that the seller is appealing to greedy buyers who want a windfall, but don't want to pay the price of actual certified problem-free coins. And when "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" is proven true ONCE AGAIN, the buyer seeks to blame anyone but himself.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information? >>
I would never buy a car without having a return privilege or having my mechanic check it first. It's obvious that the seller is appealing to greedy buyers who want a windfall, but don't want to pay the price of actual certified problem-free coins. And when "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" is proven true ONCE AGAIN, the buyer seeks to blame anyone but himself. >>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress?
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i> Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
Doing this once is fraud, doing it 42 times and counting is serial fraud.
This seller has been doing this for years and has been hosing buyers who need to be protected from such sleaze and mendacity.
The fact that eBay has already removed 27 of the offending listings is indicative of the fact that it does not approve of the seller's mendacity. Furthermore, let's not forget that eBay tells the seller to "include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition".
Instead of saying that crackouts happen, let's have a list of them and get the eBay listings cancelled. That would be doing something positive.
<< <i>All the seller is doing is appealling to a sense of greed and he has no shortage of buyers who's sense of greed outweighs their brains or commonsense. >>
This is a ludicrous argument. Reductio ad absurdum applied here would lead one to conclude that individuals attempting to commit a crime should not be blamed, because the victims were gullible or greedy.
Applying the same argument, anything should be acceptable on eBay, counterfeits should be sold and if buyers are duped that's their own fault.
"Your honour, you cannot blame my client, because the complainant unknowingly or greedily accepted the fraudulent misrepresentation!"
I am assuming that one of the posters in this thread is seriouscoins - stand up and be counted!
<< <i> Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
You can try and rationalize this guys behavior anyway you want. The fact of the matter is, this guy has a track record of cracking coins from problem holders and trying to pass them off as problem free.
<< <i>Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? >>
Don't you think that is a given? Unless the coin was minted after the advent of TPG's then of course the coin was once raw. What's not a given is that the coin was in problem holder and is now raw. I hate to break it to you, but your view of this situation is the minority here, and I would be willing to bet that most people reading this and your defense of this less than ethical dealer are questioning whether they would every buy a raw coin from you.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
You say the seller is a criminal. Pardner, you are intentionally libeling that seller. Good luck.
If the seller is commiting a crime.....if...and I have to say I really haven't done a Sherlock Holmes on this seller...if he is...then IMHO...EBAY is guilty of RICO statutes because they know about it and EBAY is profitting from the situation and this particular seller is not unique. Ebay seems to have a business model built around a certain percentage of like sellers. Ebay has the resources to combat this if it is a 'crime' and doesn't.
Be a big guy and go after EBAY.
The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins. ---and who will never get it. You can't teach a pig to sing.
<< <i>You say the seller is a criminal. Pardner, you are intentionally libeling that seller. Good luck.
If the seller is commiting a crime.....if...and I have to say I really haven't done a Sherlock Holmes on this seller...if he is...then IMHO...EBAY is guilty of RICO statutes because they know about it and EBAY is profitting from the situation and this particular seller is not unique. Ebay seems to have a business model built around a certain percentage of like sellers. Ebay has the resources to combat this if it is a 'crime' and doesn't.
Be a big guy and go after EBAY.
The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins. ---and who will never get it. You can't teach a pig to sing.
gotta run. bye >>
I don't know how a raw coin sold on eBay has anything to do with PCGS or abides by Don's rules. By the way, if you go on the EBAY boards and start a thread like this accusing an eBay seller of fraud, YOU will be the one banned. Why should we have to put up with this HERE?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Frank, if you are replying to me...it's no wonder you have as many problems as you do.
I have not accused anyone of "fraud". What I intended to say is if that new poster is calling seriouscoins a criminal---then that new poster is libeling seriouscoins--whoever that guy is. BUT if it turns out that seriouscoins is a criminal...then Ebay is allowing it to happen...and that my friend is more serious than seriouscoins You may not be reading what I am intending to say. no problem. good luck
I really have to get some work done, I can't live on chatrooms--they don't get my work done.
If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it's a duck! eBay is under intense pressure to act on this matter.
I look forward to the libel suit, when I will present evidence in the form of screen captures of the listings that have now been removed from eBay.
eBay censors its forums and censures some eBay members and this is often to the detriment of other potential victims whilst benefiting eBay's bottom line.
I thought that freedom of speech was still an important tenet in the States but I stand corrected by those who would prefer to remove this thread. Other readers of the thread have now been warned off from buying from seriouscoins and so it has performed a useful service. It's a pity that those whose views are now in the minority in this thread and have nothing useful to add to the debate are resorting to the "let's remove the thread" argument.
By the way, two more of his listings have just been removed!
<< <i>Frank, if you are replying to me...it's no wonder you have as many problems as you do.
I have not accused anyone of "fraud". What I intended to say is if that new poster is calling seriouscoins a criminal---then that new poster is libeling seriouscoins--whoever that guy is. BUT if it turns out that seriouscoins is a criminal...then Ebay is allowing it to happen...and that my friend is more serious than seriouscoins You may not be reading what I am intending to say. no problem. good luck
>>
I was agreeing with YOU... A grading service RENDERS AN OPINION which is no longer binding once the coin is cracked out. The coins are now raw, and the seller is giving HIS opinion, but allowing no returns. Anyone buying expensive coins not slabbed and with no returns, CLEARLY STATED in the sales terms, deserves what they get. I can't see how cracking out a slabbed coin and selling it raw is CRIMINAL.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
FRANK, we probably agree. I do not think it's criminal either. It may be against Ebay's policy but I do not think it's 'FRAUD' or 'CRIMINAL'. It's bad business IMO.
We Agree. yeh. You have no idea how relieved I am. And you are correct sir, when you conjecture that this thread would go poof on Ebay discussion forums. Really no different than if a bash the host thread appears anywhere on the net.
Frank, who's alt do you think the new poster is....BOBBO?
Selling coins on ebay seems to me to be an uphill battle. Bad end game if you ask me. Ebay has to allow the lowest common denominator to exist and that makes doing business on their venue difficult if one is trying to run a clean ship.
Please, I love you Frank but I really have to scoot. bye.
<< <i>I believe this has been stated before.... all he has to say is he didn't agree with the original grading in the slab. >>
But he doesn't. He fails to disclose that each coin was a graded one from a reputable TPG. This is sleazy and is now generating a reaction from eBay and not before time. I would also suggest that whilst a grading may well be an opinion, listing EVERY crackout as being better than the original TPG's grade beggars belief and is deception.
<< <i>The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins. ---and who will never get it. You can't teach a pig to sing. >>
Like WC Fields said: "You can't cheat an honest man."
<< <i> Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody!
<< <i> Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody! >>
The coin speaks a heck of a lot louder when information about it isn't purposely with held from the buyer.
Hypothetical:
You buy a coin on the BST for your 7070. It's a VF to EF early large cent. It has a nice chocolate brown patina. You learn later that the seller had cracked it out of a small ANACS problem holder that said "Tooled" You look closely and see that it's had a few details helped that you missed on your initial inspection. So according to you and Frank, the seller is completely in the clear, because the buyer should've known better?
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i> Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody! >>
The coin speaks a heck of a lot louder when information about it isn't purposely with held from the buyer.
Hypothetical:
You buy a coin on the BST for your 7070. It's a VF to EF early large cent. It has a nice chocolate brown patina. You learn later that the seller had cracked it out of a small ANACS problem holder that said "Tooled" You look closely and see that it's had a few details helped that you missed on your initial inspection. So according to you and Frank, the seller is completely in the clear, because the buyer should've known better? >>
Well, first of all I think 7070s (as well as all other albums for raw coins) are abominations and should be prohibited by the national numismatic czar. I would prefer that coins be properly housed for long term preservation, and this is only accomplished by housing them in reputable TPG slabs. Anything else is numismatic negligence.
I only buy coins already encapsulated by reputable TPGs. I like to increase my chances of the coins being problem free.
I have collected coins off and on for over 50 years, and remember the days of the pre-TPG jungle very well. I have no desire to return to those primitive days.
Anyone who buys raw coins assumes a lot of risk - and they have to be able to handle that risk. NEWS FLASH - MANY COIN DEALERS LIE AND MISREPRESENT THEIR COINS TO MAKE MORE MONEY. That is just the way it is.
<< <i>Anyone who buys raw coins assumes a lot of risk - and they have to be able to handle that risk. NEWS FLASH - MANY COIN DEALERS LIE AND MISREPRESENT THEIR COINS TO MAKE MORE MONEY. That is just the way it is. >>
Thank you questor54, buying raw coins on ebay is kinda like buying food products from mainland China.
In the state of Minnesota, anything knowingly being misrepresented (willful intent to deceive) below 250.00 is a petty misdemeanor and punishable by a fine, community service, and restitution. 250 and above, gross misdemeanor, jail time, court, etc etc etc...
In the state of Minnesota, anything knowingly being misrepresented (willful intent to deceive) below 250.00 is a petty misdemeanor and punishable by a fine, community service, and restitution. 250 and above, gross misdemeanor, jail time, court, etc etc etc... >>
Wow..going to jail about a disagreement on the grade of a coin.
We once had a group of 1920s commems graded by ANACS as 'cleaned" but they simply had lots of die polishing lines. Sent them to PCGS...all came back MS65!
Had I cracked them and sold them raw rather than resubmitting them, would I have committed fraud? Is a grading service's WRONG opinion more important than that of the seller?
Is it OK to sell them in the PCGS no problem slabs without mentioning ANACS' stupid designation as cleaned?
It's still frustrating for early copper people to have coins rejected as corroded when they were STRUCK THAT WAY...Copper blanks ordered from England and used as ballast in the ship during a 2 month trip over salt water ocean!
Does the 75 year old copper specialist need to disclose that some 30 year old kid who grades widgits doesn't know what an original 1796 large cent is supposed to look like?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Cmon Frank.....there are exceptions. In the case of this seller, it is not an honest mistake by a newbie grader or a differance of opinion, it is outright, premeditaded and intentional FRAUD. This sellers pattern of deception is well documented. How much longer can you carry his water?
<< <i>Cmon Frank.....there are exceptions. In the case of this seller, it is not an honest mistake by a newbie grader or a differance of opinion, it is outright, premeditaded and intentional FRAUD. This sellers pattern of deception is well documented. How much longer can you carry his water? >>
I have seen no proof that the ebay seller is the same person who bought the coins at auction and cracked them out. If he is or isn't, does that change the fact that a buyer has some responsibility not to buy stupid stuff with lots of red flags? For the past 40 years there have been full page ads in Coin World and Numismatic News advertising "BU" coins for 1/2 or 1/3 the price a legitimate dealer would PAY for such coins if properly graded. You can't change reality...you CAN protect yourself by buying only certified coins and avoiding "no return" bargain deals.
You DO realize that this discussion has NOTHING to do with PCGS and is being strung along by 3 newbies with 3, 5 and 7 message posting hiistories?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I know this thread is not about PCGS, it is about Ebay. How many threads have you started about ebay?........
I fully agree with you that a buyer should educate him or herself.
How much proof do you need? Another 20+ cancelled crackout auctions? How many more people need to be ripped off before you wil admit we have a crook here.
I would like to argue more semantics. I will say that I went down a much smaller, yet similar scenario when I was a teenager. That is how I learned of the law. And if in fact what the OP charges is true, even if this were a hypothetical thread, that seller would be criminally liable for theft by swindle. Period! And by law, that is. You don't have to agree with me, just go out and try it and learn for yourself. If somebody cares, you WILL be charged! fact! This is not a matter of opinion. It's BY LAW!
Added from random website:
"Swindle v. to cheat through trick, device, false statements or other fraudulent methods with the intent to acquire money or property from another to which the swindler is not entitled. Swindling is a crime as one form of theft. "
Fraud is a serious allegation, the charge of which would ultimately need to be ajudicated in a court of law. Now, to characterize the practice apparently being performed by this seller as sleazy, underhanded and misleading seems to me to be entirely appropriate.
My next step, were I to have been the buyer dumb enough to transact this business, would be to initiate a credit card chargeback after unlinking all of my bank account information from PayPal. Beyond that, I might make an appearance in person at the sellers' place of business.
While I expect decent behaviour from eBay sellers, including decent shipping times and reasonable communications, I no longer expect to find substantially underpriced trasures there, nor do I have any faith at all in finding bargains on raw coins. EBay, in general, is a cesspool.
<< <i>I have seen no proof that the ebay seller is the same person who bought the coins at auction and cracked them out. If he is or isn't, does that change the fact that a buyer has some responsibility not to buy stupid stuff with lots of red flags? For the past 40 years there have been full page ads in Coin World and Numismatic News advertising "BU" coins for 1/2 or 1/3 the price a legitimate dealer would PAY for such coins if properly graded. You can't change reality...you CAN protect yourself by buying only certified coins and avoiding "no return" bargain deals.
You DO realize that this discussion has NOTHING to do with PCGS and is being strung along by 3 newbies with 3, 5 and 7 message posting hiistories? >>
You may not have seen proof but the original poster's coin was one of the listings removed by eBay.
From your final sentence, should I conclude that only those who have a long history of posting on this board have a valid opinion? Is it really the case that my opinion and comments have less value than yours? I tend to find that those who have little to say or who realise that their opinions have been discounted will attempt to discredit the messenger because they have failed to discredit the message.
For the record, I have collected coins for more than 50 years and am one of those who has written the reports. I don't feel the need to provide you with proof when eBay has already accepted that proof and that is why most of the listings are gone but try looking at item 110672202471, which was http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1153&lotNo=3114#Photo.
For those in denial, when you compare the eBay coin to the Heritage coin, note the identical skin and the identical scattered hits and marks. Very notable are the large obverse hit under the letter S in Trust, hits on Lincoln's face, the reverse hits on the S and A in STATES and the distinctive hit on the very lower left wheat ear tip.
This got the seller a quick $500 profit by deception and as has already been noted, it is a fraud.
The comment that "the discussion has "NOTHING to do with PCGS" strikes me as a little strange, so let me remind you that the thread is entitled "ebay seller FRAUD-seriouscoins crackout" and in my opinion, as this discussion has considered the ethics of selling, the responsibilities of the buyer and the responsibilities of the seller as well as what does or does not constitute fraud, in law, I suspect that a lot of people are finding this interesting, relevant and perhaps even illuminating.
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody!
State DMV consumer protection divisions and their AG offices go to great lengths to ensure that salvaged cars from floods, crashes, hail, etc. are identified appropriately so that a future buyer doesn't get screwed when the words "salvage" are removed from a subsquent title or CarFax. In the real world most car buyers can't tell if a car was in a flood or had major repair work completed. And in the real world, a large % of coin buyers can't tell a screwed with coin from a problem-free one. The difference here is that since car buying affects most American families, having laws to protect them and then enforcing them makes sense. The coin market is a non-factor in the real world and basically gets the law of caveat emptor to protect it. But both situations are quite similar otherwise.
In a way I agree with Frank in that buyers should look for red flags and exercise due diligence, and thus bear some responsibility...but... That said, many average ebayers don't likely know Heritage exists so they wouldn't necessarily have the same knowledge base that we do and thus wouldn't know to look for previous sales. Plus, let's face it- it's not like this guy just popped up yesterday. He has been on the radar screen for quite some time both here and elsewhere concerning his ongoing practice of buying problem holder coins, busting them and selling them raw as if they were problem free. Many ebayers including myself have done what we can to report this- but ebay still retains an arm's length position on the whole thing...basically their stance is "we don't know for sure that these are the same coins". Translation: "We'll keep taking his money until someone conclusively proves that some type of fraud has taken place here". This, despite the OVERWHELMING circumstantial evidence to the contrary.
For some reason, people think I am joking when I insist on the formation of a National Numismatic Commission (NNC) headed by a National Numismatic Czar (NNC) to deal with situations like this and many others.
Off topic perhaps but, I had a coin on my website for $10,900.00 ( still there, haven't had time to remove yet) which was sold last week and is now listed on ebay for $37,000 and on a website for $23,000.
Comments
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>The seller's motive is profit via intentional omission of known information, and an absence of ethics and candor that have the net effect of misrepresentation and deception. >>
Firstly, there is no reason to blame the original poster for buying the coin and secondly fraud and fraudulent misrepresentation is what this thread is actually about, never mind eBay rules or caveat emptor - meaningless - this is about fraud.
seriouscoins is a crook and there is strong evidence to suggest that he has always been.
In the last three weeks, eBay has had to deal with 42 reports of listing violations about this crook, all of them about crackouts, mainly bought from Teletrade and Heritage and the coins were all originally graded as problem coins, whizzed, cleaned, harshly cleaned etc, but the crook failed to mention this in any of the listings and instead chose to write a glowing and of course, lying description for each coin, claiming that it was a raw coin. In one case, the buyer paid $5,500 but the crook only paid $2,500. These reports only cover a period of 90 days, only because eBay does not allow us to see earlier listings.
At the time of writing, eBay has removed 27 listings, including that mentioned by the original poster, the 1839-O and I anticipate that the rest will be removed.
This is one of the biggest crooks I have ever come across on eBay. Let's hope that eBay see it that way and finally close his account.
<< <i>whole problem would be moot if eBay policy was sellers HAD to offer return priv >>
Why not just not bid on raw coins, or coins with no return policy?
I like to look at what he has and have often wondered where he was getting all the "high end" coins.
Now I know.
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information?
Read, comprehend, educate yourself...buying off these sites is like a roll of the dice.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information? >>
I would never buy a car without having a return privilege or having my mechanic check it first. It's obvious that the seller is appealing to greedy buyers who want a windfall, but don't want to pay the price of actual certified problem-free coins. And when "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" is proven true ONCE AGAIN, the buyer seeks to blame anyone but himself.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
I'm curious how you would feel if you bought a used car and 2 months later the transmission failed and then you learned that the dealer, before you purchased it, sent the car in for a transmission tune up and the mechanic refused to service the transmission because of the amount of metal shavings in the fluid. Would you have purchased that car had you known this piece of information? >>
I would never buy a car without having a return privilege or having my mechanic check it first. It's obvious that the seller is appealing to greedy buyers who want a windfall, but don't want to pay the price of actual certified problem-free coins. And when "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" is proven true ONCE AGAIN, the buyer seeks to blame anyone but himself. >>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress?
The buyer is just as responsible as the seller in this case..however many times in a more passive sense.
This type of unequal transaction went on yesterday, goes on today and will go on tomorrow.
All the seller will do is change his name or venue or what he is selling.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
<< <i>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time.
<< <i>A raw coin is a raw coin. It's no secret that many slabbed coins with "bad words" on the slab (cleaned, questionable color, etc) are broken out of the slabs before being resold. With big auction houses, the fine print will always tell you that on raw coins, there is no guarantee except that the coin is genuine. >>
Doing this once is fraud, doing it 42 times and counting is serial fraud.
This seller has been doing this for years and has been hosing buyers who need to be protected from such sleaze and mendacity.
The fact that eBay has already removed 27 of the offending listings is indicative of the fact that it does not approve of the seller's mendacity. Furthermore, let's not forget that eBay tells the seller to "include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition".
Instead of saying that crackouts happen, let's have a list of them and get the eBay listings cancelled. That would be doing something positive.
Someone cracked out a coin and re-sold it on eBay ? Raw ?
And they bought it for less at Teletrade or Heritage ?
Wow !
Free advertisement for the Auction House.
This is unbelievable.
Good News !
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>All the seller is doing is appealling to a sense of greed and he has no shortage of buyers who's sense of greed outweighs their brains or commonsense. >>
This is a ludicrous argument. Reductio ad absurdum applied here would lead one to conclude that individuals attempting to commit a crime should not be blamed, because the victims were gullible or greedy.
Applying the same argument, anything should be acceptable on eBay, counterfeits should be sold and if buyers are duped that's their own fault.
"Your honour, you cannot blame my client, because the complainant unknowingly or greedily accepted the fraudulent misrepresentation!"
I am assuming that one of the posters in this thread is seriouscoins - stand up and be counted!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
You can try and rationalize this guys behavior anyway you want. The fact of the matter is, this guy has a track record of cracking coins from problem holders and trying to pass them off as problem free.
<< <i>Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? >>
Don't you think that is a given? Unless the coin was minted after the advent of TPG's then of course the coin was once raw. What's not a given is that the coin was in problem holder and is now raw. I hate to break it to you, but your view of this situation is the minority here, and I would be willing to bet that most people reading this and your defense of this less than ethical dealer are questioning whether they would every buy a raw coin from you.
Rut Roh
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If the seller is commiting a crime.....if...and I have to say I really haven't done a Sherlock Holmes on this seller...if he is...then IMHO...EBAY is guilty of RICO statutes because they know about it and EBAY is profitting from the situation and this particular seller is not unique. Ebay seems to have a business model built around a certain percentage of like sellers. Ebay has the resources to combat this if it is a 'crime' and doesn't.
Be a big guy and go after EBAY.
The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins.
gotta run. bye
<< <i>You say the seller is a criminal. Pardner, you are intentionally libeling that seller. Good luck.
If the seller is commiting a crime.....if...and I have to say I really haven't done a Sherlock Holmes on this seller...if he is...then IMHO...EBAY is guilty of RICO statutes because they know about it and EBAY is profitting from the situation and this particular seller is not unique. Ebay seems to have a business model built around a certain percentage of like sellers. Ebay has the resources to combat this if it is a 'crime' and doesn't.
Be a big guy and go after EBAY.
The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins.
gotta run. bye >>
I don't know how a raw coin sold on eBay has anything to do with PCGS or abides by Don's rules. By the way, if you go on the
EBAY boards and start a thread like this accusing an eBay seller of fraud, YOU will be the one banned. Why should we have to put up with
this HERE?
I have not accused anyone of "fraud". What I intended to say is if that new poster is calling seriouscoins a criminal---then that new poster is libeling seriouscoins--whoever that guy is. BUT if it turns out that seriouscoins is a criminal...then Ebay is allowing it to happen...and that my friend is more serious than seriouscoins
You may not be reading what I am intending to say. no problem. good luck
I really have to get some work done, I can't live on chatrooms--they don't get my work done.
I really gotta go. BYE
I look forward to the libel suit, when I will present evidence in the form of screen captures of the listings that have now been removed from eBay.
eBay censors its forums and censures some eBay members and this is often to the detriment of other potential victims whilst benefiting eBay's bottom line.
I thought that freedom of speech was still an important tenet in the States but I stand corrected by those who would prefer to remove this thread. Other readers of the thread have now been warned off from buying from seriouscoins and so it has performed a useful service. It's a pity that those whose views are now in the minority in this thread and have nothing useful to add to the debate are resorting to the "let's remove the thread" argument.
By the way, two more of his listings have just been removed!
<< <i>Frank, if you are replying to me...it's no wonder you have as many problems as you do.
I have not accused anyone of "fraud". What I intended to say is if that new poster is calling seriouscoins a criminal---then that new poster is libeling seriouscoins--whoever that guy is. BUT if it turns out that seriouscoins is a criminal...then Ebay is allowing it to happen...and that my friend is more serious than seriouscoins
You may not be reading what I am intending to say. no problem. good luck
>>
I was agreeing with YOU... A grading service RENDERS AN OPINION which is no longer binding once the coin is cracked out. The coins are now raw, and the seller is giving HIS opinion, but allowing no returns. Anyone buying expensive coins not slabbed and with no returns, CLEARLY STATED in the sales terms, deserves what they get. I can't see how cracking out a slabbed coin and selling it raw is CRIMINAL.
We Agree. yeh. You have no idea how relieved I am. And you are correct sir, when you conjecture that this thread would go poof on Ebay discussion forums. Really no different than if a bash the host thread appears anywhere on the net.
Frank, who's alt do you think the new poster is....BOBBO?
Selling coins on ebay seems to me to be an uphill battle. Bad end game if you ask me. Ebay has to allow the lowest common denominator to exist and that makes doing business on their venue difficult if one is trying to run a clean ship.
Please, I love you Frank but I really have to scoot. bye.
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<< <i>I believe this has been stated before.... all he has to say is he didn't agree with the original grading in the slab. >>
But he doesn't. He fails to disclose that each coin was a graded one from a reputable TPG. This is sleazy and is now generating a reaction from eBay and not before time. I would also suggest that whilst a grading may well be an opinion, listing EVERY crackout as being better than the original TPG's grade beggars belief and is deception.
<< <i>The U.S. Coin Forum has become the ebay forum for people who want to pay ASK for blue sheet or below coins. ---and who will never get it. You can't teach a pig to sing. >>
Like WC Fields said: "You can't cheat an honest man."
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody! >>
The coin speaks a heck of a lot louder when information about it isn't purposely with held from the buyer.
Hypothetical:
You buy a coin on the BST for your 7070. It's a VF to EF early large cent. It has a nice chocolate brown patina. You learn later that the seller had cracked it out of a small ANACS problem holder that said "Tooled" You look closely and see that it's had a few details helped that you missed on your initial inspection. So according to you and Frank, the seller is completely in the clear, because the buyer should've known better?
Seller is guilty of committing fraud.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yep, and some sellers intentionally hide information from potential buyers in order to increase the sale price. You have one hell of backwards view of the world if you think it's the buyer being greedy here and not the seller. When a woman gets raped do you also say she shouldn't have been wearing that short dress? >>
Should a seller disclose that a fine slabbed coin was once RAW? Or in a slab with a lower grade. Or once was AU and is now Mint State? Or in a slab marked cleaned or questionable toning, but that it was resubmitted and found to now be acceptable. What if an intermediary was used, and the seller did not crack out the coins? Should the fact that a seller may be withholding information, or MAY NOT KNOW the information have ANY DIFFERENCE on whether the buyer uses common sense to protect himself?
Your comparison of this to the rape of a woman is really about the lowest thing I have seen on this board in a long time. >>
If I am reading Frank correctly, he is basically saying that the coin has to speak for itself, the potential buyer must be qualified and able to make their own evauation and assessment of a coin before purchase, and the seller cannot be trusted or relied upon to do this work for the seller. Welcome to the real world everybody! >>
The coin speaks a heck of a lot louder when information about it isn't purposely with held from the buyer.
Hypothetical:
You buy a coin on the BST for your 7070. It's a VF to EF early large cent. It has a nice chocolate brown patina. You learn later that the seller had cracked it out of a small ANACS problem holder that said "Tooled" You look closely and see that it's had a few details helped that you missed on your initial inspection. So according to you and Frank, the seller is completely in the clear, because the buyer should've known better? >>
Well, first of all I think 7070s (as well as all other albums for raw coins) are abominations and should be prohibited by the national numismatic czar. I would prefer that coins be properly housed for long term preservation, and this is only accomplished by housing them in reputable TPG slabs. Anything else is numismatic negligence.
I only buy coins already encapsulated by reputable TPGs. I like to increase my chances of the coins being problem free.
I have collected coins off and on for over 50 years, and remember the days of the pre-TPG jungle very well. I have no desire to return to those primitive days.
Anyone who buys raw coins assumes a lot of risk - and they have to be able to handle that risk. NEWS FLASH - MANY COIN DEALERS LIE AND MISREPRESENT THEIR COINS TO MAKE MORE MONEY. That is just the way it is.
<< <i>Anyone who buys raw coins assumes a lot of risk - and they have to be able to handle that risk. NEWS FLASH - MANY COIN DEALERS LIE AND MISREPRESENT THEIR COINS TO MAKE MORE MONEY. That is just the way it is. >>
Thank you questor54, buying raw coins on ebay is kinda like buying food products from mainland China.
Someone I'd never buy a raw coin from, clearly the answer is never!
In the state of Minnesota, anything knowingly being misrepresented (willful intent to deceive) below 250.00 is a petty misdemeanor and punishable by a fine, community service, and restitution. 250 and above, gross misdemeanor, jail time, court, etc etc etc...
<< <i>Fraud! Plain and simple.
In the state of Minnesota, anything knowingly being misrepresented (willful intent to deceive) below 250.00 is a petty misdemeanor and punishable by a fine, community service, and restitution. 250 and above, gross misdemeanor, jail time, court, etc etc etc... >>
Wow..going to jail about a disagreement on the grade of a coin.
We once had a group of 1920s commems graded by ANACS as 'cleaned" but they simply had lots of die polishing lines. Sent them
to PCGS...all came back MS65!
Had I cracked them and sold them raw rather than resubmitting them, would I have committed fraud? Is a grading service's
WRONG opinion more important than that of the seller?
Is it OK to sell them in the PCGS no problem slabs without mentioning ANACS' stupid designation as cleaned?
It's still frustrating for early copper people to have coins rejected as corroded when they were STRUCK THAT WAY...Copper
blanks ordered from England and used as ballast in the ship during a 2 month trip over salt water ocean!
Does the 75 year old
copper specialist need to disclose that some 30 year old kid who grades widgits doesn't know what an original 1796 large
cent is supposed to look like?
In the case of this seller, it is not an honest mistake by a newbie grader or a differance of opinion, it is outright, premeditaded and intentional FRAUD. This sellers pattern of deception is well documented. How much longer can you carry his water?
<< <i>Cmon Frank.....there are exceptions.
In the case of this seller, it is not an honest mistake by a newbie grader or a differance of opinion, it is outright, premeditaded and intentional FRAUD. This sellers pattern of deception is well documented. How much longer can you carry his water? >>
I have seen no proof that the ebay seller is the same person who bought the coins at auction and cracked them out. If he is or isn't, does that
change the fact that a buyer has some responsibility not to buy stupid stuff with lots of red flags? For the past 40 years there have been
full page ads in Coin World and Numismatic News advertising "BU" coins for 1/2 or 1/3 the price a legitimate dealer would PAY for such
coins if properly graded. You can't change reality...you CAN protect yourself by buying only certified coins and avoiding "no return" bargain deals.
You DO realize that this discussion has NOTHING to do with PCGS and is being strung along by 3 newbies with 3, 5 and 7 message posting hiistories?
I fully agree with you that a buyer should educate him or herself.
How much proof do you need? Another 20+ cancelled crackout auctions? How many more people need to be ripped off before you wil admit we have a crook here.
Added from random website:
"Swindle v. to cheat through trick, device, false statements or other fraudulent methods with the intent to acquire money or property from another to which the swindler is not entitled. Swindling is a crime as one form of theft. "
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
My next step, were I to have been the buyer dumb enough to transact this business, would be to initiate a credit card chargeback after unlinking all of my bank account information from PayPal. Beyond that, I might make an appearance in person at the sellers' place of business.
While I expect decent behaviour from eBay sellers, including decent shipping times and reasonable communications, I no longer expect to find substantially underpriced trasures there, nor do I have any faith at all in finding bargains on raw coins. EBay, in general, is a cesspool.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>I have seen no proof that the ebay seller is the same person who bought the coins at auction and cracked them out. If he is or isn't, does that
change the fact that a buyer has some responsibility not to buy stupid stuff with lots of red flags? For the past 40 years there have been
full page ads in Coin World and Numismatic News advertising "BU" coins for 1/2 or 1/3 the price a legitimate dealer would PAY for such
coins if properly graded. You can't change reality...you CAN protect yourself by buying only certified coins and avoiding "no return" bargain deals.
You DO realize that this discussion has NOTHING to do with PCGS and is being strung along by 3 newbies with 3, 5 and 7 message posting hiistories? >>
You may not have seen proof but the original poster's coin was one of the listings removed by eBay.
From your final sentence, should I conclude that only those who have a long history of posting on this board have a valid opinion? Is it really the case that my opinion and comments have less value than yours? I tend to find that those who have little to say or who realise that their opinions have been discounted will attempt to discredit the messenger because they have failed to discredit the message.
For the record, I have collected coins for more than 50 years and am one of those who has written the reports. I don't feel the need to provide you with proof when eBay has already accepted that proof and that is why most of the listings are gone but try looking at item 110672202471, which was http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1153&lotNo=3114#Photo.
For those in denial, when you compare the eBay coin to the Heritage coin, note the identical skin and the identical scattered hits and marks. Very notable are the large obverse hit under the letter S in Trust, hits on Lincoln's face, the reverse hits on the S and A in STATES and the distinctive hit on the very lower left wheat ear tip.
This got the seller a quick $500 profit by deception and as has already been noted, it is a fraud.
The comment that "the discussion has "NOTHING to do with PCGS" strikes me as a little strange, so let me remind you that the thread is entitled "ebay seller FRAUD-seriouscoins crackout" and in my opinion, as this discussion has considered the ethics of selling, the responsibilities of the buyer and the responsibilities of the seller as well as what does or does not constitute fraud, in law, I suspect that a lot of people are finding this interesting, relevant and perhaps even illuminating.
State DMV consumer protection divisions and their AG offices go to great lengths to ensure that salvaged cars from floods, crashes, hail, etc. are identified appropriately so that a future buyer doesn't get screwed when the words "salvage" are removed from a subsquent title or CarFax. In the real world most car buyers can't tell if a car was in a flood or had major repair work completed. And in the real world, a large % of coin buyers can't tell a screwed with coin from a problem-free one. The difference here is that since car buying affects most American families, having laws to protect them and then enforcing them makes sense. The coin market is a non-factor in the real world and basically gets the law of caveat emptor to protect it. But both situations are quite similar otherwise.
roadrunner
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870