A new low for those hotel buyers!
Geoman
Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭
Another one of those companies was advertising with a 2-page full color ad in the newspaper this week. Their ad states they "Pay up to 8x face value" for 1964 Kennedy's. I had several people call my store to ask what I pay, and they couldn't believe how low these people are. I thought about taking out a competing full-page ad but found out the cost was over $1,000 for a full page color ad. So I didn't.
Several people didn't sell their coins and came into my store to get another price quote. One guy said they offered him $2 per Walking Liberty Half Dollars.That is only 4x face value! They usually are half of what the current rate is, but 4x face value for 90% silver is crazy and a new record low! I know people will say that it is their choice to sell, but man...... when does it become a rip off and crime?!!! I should see if I can rent the room across from them and place a big sign on the door saying I am buying at 20x face!
Several people didn't sell their coins and came into my store to get another price quote. One guy said they offered him $2 per Walking Liberty Half Dollars.That is only 4x face value! They usually are half of what the current rate is, but 4x face value for 90% silver is crazy and a new record low! I know people will say that it is their choice to sell, but man...... when does it become a rip off and crime?!!! I should see if I can rent the room across from them and place a big sign on the door saying I am buying at 20x face!
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Comments
<< <i>.....door saying I am buying at 20x face! >>
Most people who will go to them wont be able to do that math.....
Silver was around $30 then and they paid her 8X face.
She still insists she got a good deal, poor soul.
Just for kicks I checked out a recent add and laughed, when they offered me $900 for my 06 unc. Buff.
Gold was at $1300. The silver was even more laughable
<< <i>i don't say it to excuse these guys to any degree but the price paid to advertise in any major metropolitan area is huge and dwarfs your stated $1,000 price. i know a group of dealers who did this sort of thing several years ago over a weeks time and their advertising for a few days leading up to it was close to $30k. >>
So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead?
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.
did you read what i wrote??
<< <i>My friends mom, who is in her 70s, sold to one of those crooks.
Silver was around $30 then and they paid her 8X face.
She still insists she got a good deal, poor soul. >>
It's hard not to be impressed when someone pays you $8 for a dollar!!
<< <i>when does it become a rip off and crime?!!! I >>
Unfortunately when two parties come to an agreement in a buy / sell transaction it is almost never illegal. There are a few things that can make the transaction become a crime (a coin is stolen for example) that can get the seller in trouble or the buyer (pays with fraudulent credit card). For the most part though, a deal is a deal when it comes to the criminal side of the house... The civil side is a whole other ball of wax, civilly one can sue for almost anything and the burden of proof is much lower. We get one of those companies where I live taking out two page ads from time to time. I am half tempted to stand outside and tell people as they walk in "Don't sell anything 90% silver for less than 20x face." but I can't do that because I run the risk of being kicked off the property, being sued by someone in civil court, etc.
It is kind of sad but they have every right to do what they do, the only thing we can do is help educate people in a way that is not illegal or puts us at risk of allowing these dirt bags to turn around and sue us. It is truly shameful.
A couple of days later our ad rep came by to tell us about the screaming mad phone call they got from the hotel guys. Oh, just for fun we sent one of our young guys over with a raw AU 1914-D Lincoln. As I recall, they offered him $150 for it.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead? >>
Draw the line for me.
Let's assume that marketing costs are proportional to the "rip off" factor.
Tell me what a "fair" price is, then we are going to have a discussion about marketing and value.
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<< <i>So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead?
did you read what i wrote?? >>
Apparently not.
Have them run your add on the next page of magazine and make sure to write in your add "will pay OVER DOUBLE WHAT THE HOTEL BUYERS ARE PAYING"
Im sure in the long run (maybe a month?) you will get way more than your money back...
<< <i>Im sure in the long run (maybe a month?) you will get way more than your money back... >>
You'll probably also be, uh, "paid a visit," on behalf of the hotel buyers.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The wheats, they pawed thru, literally...looking for key dates only. The guy actually said that keys were all they bought, even though their ad said nothing to this fact. The silver, they offered about 5X, and for the 2 gold chains, they offered pitiful amounts. Needless to say, I walked out with what I came in with.
I ended up taking the wife's grandmother to another guy here in town that buys and she would up with about double what the hotel buyers offered. I sold my chains for about that as well, the silver went back in the box, along with the wheats.
Noticed in the paper later that day, that he had taken out a half page ad stating what he paid and that he would beat any offer in writing from the hotel guys. He doesn't pay top dollar like some of the bigger guys, but I feel like he's fair. And he is upfront with you about him having to make a profit. He sells to AMPEX. For the past 6 months or so, he has averaged between 18.5 and 21X for 90%, which, after calling around, is about the best you can do within 50 miles. There is one coin shop that buys, but he seems to be "out of cash" a lot.
I wish the PM market was regulated better, as far as these scam buyers are concerned. But I guess it's not theft if they pay people something for their stuff.
<< <i>My local dealer often wonders why people don't sell [say an ounce of gold] to him instead of consigning it to auction or selling it on eBay. They could walk out with a check [or cash] for the same amount or more wiith a lot less hassle. >>
Probably because they are leery of the coin dealers... after all, there are quite a few stories of the rips that occur there also.
<< <i>
<< <i>My local dealer often wonders why people don't sell [say an ounce of gold] to him instead of consigning it to auction or selling it on eBay. They could walk out with a check [or cash] for the same amount or more wiith a lot less hassle. >>
Probably because they are leery of the coin dealers... after all, there are quite a few stories of the rips that occur there also. >>
Agree. B&M coin dealers don't have the best reputations---sorta like used car dealers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead?
did you read what i wrote?? >>
I did indeed.
You seemed to imply that the $30,000.00 they spent on advertising mitigated their unethical behavior.
At least that was my inference.
YMMV
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My local dealer often wonders why people don't sell [say an ounce of gold] to him instead of consigning it to auction or selling it on eBay. They could walk out with a check [or cash] for the same amount or more wiith a lot less hassle. >>
Probably because they are leery of the coin dealers... after all, there are quite a few stories of the rips that occur there also. >>
Agree. B&M coin dealers don't have the best reputations---sorta like used car dealers. >>
Absolutely right - the old saying, if there is one, of "seller beware" certainly applies to basically all these large newspaper ads, as well as any number of B&M weasel coin dealers.
It would be interesting to see something like this done whereby a middle age businessman in a nice suit comes in and offers to sell some coins...and then a few days later a frail, seemingly half senile, little old lady comes in with similar coins of basically the same value - I would have to believe in too many cases the buy offers would be different, perhaps markedly different.
<< <i>My local dealer often wonders why people don't sell [say an ounce of gold] to him instead of consigning it to auction or selling it on eBay. They could walk out with a check [or cash] for the same amount or more wiith a lot less hassle. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead?
did you read what i wrote?? >>
I did indeed.
You seemed to imply that the $30,000.00 they spent on advertising mitigated their unethical behavior.
At least that was my inference.
YMMV >>
What do these words ["i don't say it to excuse these guys to any degree"] sound like to you? I sure don't see it supporting that high ad costs equals it's ok to rip someone.
I don't understand why this post re-appears every so often.
There has never been an incident where a seller walks into one of these places and has a gun placed to their head! A buyer makes an offer and the seller either accepts, negotiates, or leaves! Simple as that!
All of you crying for yet another LAW or REGULATION requiring one thing or another need to put your big boy pants on and become educated! The government does not need to regulate everything in our lives. Why don't we demand to know the absolute profir being made on every good or service we purchase! Free markets have a way of determining whether an operation succeeds or fails and this is no exception!
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<< <i>Anyone know about what percentage of people who get these low offers actually accept? Half? Less than half? More than half? Others have said here in the past that if you offer someone a fair price for their items that you often lose the sale because the person figures it is worth even more than that. >>
Especially when it comes to this hobby!
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Now, off course it is not ethical, at all. But I bet that the local police department wouldn't care about them. There is, however, in some cities, a possibility to stop these guys. I know some counties/cities have legislature that require pawn shops and similar businesses to use certain buy forms and hold the items they buy (in particular this applies to jewelry) for 30 days. I'm almost positive very few of these hotel buyers, who come in from out of the county/state do not care about this specific legislature.
Unfortunately I suspect it takes quite a few complaints to the local PD to get an investigation going into this....Until then, I guess educating the people is the least we can do.
Dennis
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<< <i>The problem is that the authorities just do not care about these guys since technically they are not doing anything illegal...it's up to the seller to decide. And if they don't know what the real value of their holdings is...there obviously is a problem. All of us are educated on these matters but the general public, sadly, is not.
Now, off course it is not ethical, at all. But I bet that the local police department wouldn't care about them. There is, however, in some cities, a possibility to stop these guys. I know some counties/cities have legislature that require pawn shops and similar businesses to use certain buy forms and hold the items they buy (in particular this applies to jewelry) for 30 days. I'm almost positive very few of these hotel buyers, who come in from out of the county/state do not care about this specific legislature.
Unfortunately I suspect it takes quite a few complaints to the local PD to get an investigation going into this....Until then, I guess educating the people is the least we can do.
Dennis >>
How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
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<< <i>How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
Remember that many of these people have past retirement age a long time ago (to say it nicely)...they do not have the internet or other resources many of us have available. So educating themselves might be more difficult than you would think.
Dennis
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<< <i>My friends mom, who is in her 70s, sold to one of those crooks.
Silver was around $30 then and they paid her 8X face.
She still insists she got a good deal, poor soul. >>
how sad. my g/f's father went to one of them. i got a call later on and was asked bout it. thank god he called for thought he we getting shaffted. we got him a better deal else where.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So is it your position that it is acceptable to rip off the public as long as you have high overhead?
did you read what i wrote?? >>
I did indeed.
You seemed to imply that the $30,000.00 they spent on advertising mitigated their unethical behavior.
At least that was my inference.
YMMV >>
What do these words ["i don't say it to excuse these guys to any degree"] sound like to you? I sure don't see it supporting that high ad costs equals it's ok to rip someone. >>
Why not use his entire quote instead of taking it out of context?
He stated: "i don't say it to excuse these guys to any degree but the price paid to advertise in any major metropolitan area is huge and dwarfs your stated $1,000 price. i know a group of dealers who did this sort of thing several years ago over a weeks time and their advertising for a few days leading up to it was close to $30k."
Please notice the word BUT in there. It makes a world of difference (to my way of reading it anyway - YMMV)
<< <i>
<< <i>How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
Remember that many of these people have past retirement age a long time ago (to say it nicely)...they do not have the internet or other resources many of us have available. So educating themselves might be more difficult than you would think.
Dennis >>
Dennis I agree with you on this point. Senior citizens are victimized frequently. Unfortunately, it happens to them in just about every kind of transaction you can think of. To bash the admittedly "fly-by-night" PM buyers the way many do on this forum is unjustifiable. I am not a wholesale PM buyer, BUT these people provide a service. Fast food joints sell garbage for food, jewelry stores have possibly even bigger mark-ups on their products than these PM buyers discount their offers, profit on new cars are astronomical, OIL is another hot button. To label these "opportunists" as crooks, thieves, and many other inappropriate names is simply wrong. Check cashing services and Payday advance companies charge outrageous fees too, but they provide a service. No one forces people to do business with any of these operators. Their fees and below market offers are unconscionable, yet they prosper. Why? Because people choose to do business with them. When enough people decide that they don't want to do business with these types, they will quietly go away. Until then, they are meeting a demand.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
Remember that many of these people have past retirement age a long time ago (to say it nicely)...they do not have the internet or other resources many of us have available. So educating themselves might be more difficult than you would think.
Dennis >>
Dennis I agree with you on this point. Senior citizens are victimized frequently. Unfortunately, it happens to them in just about every kind of transaction you can think of. To bash the admittedly "fly-by-night" PM buyers the way many do on this forum is unjustifiable. I am not a wholesale PM buyer, BUT these people provide a service. Fast food joints sell garbage for food, jewelry stores have possibly even bigger mark-ups on their products than these PM buyers discount their offers, profit on new cars are astronomical, OIL is another hot button. To label these "opportunists" as crooks, thieves, and many other inappropriate names is simply wrong. Check cashing services and Payday advance companies charge outrageous fees too, but they provide a service. No one forces people to do business with any of these operators. Their fees and below market offers are unconscionable, yet they prosper. Why? Because people choose to do business with them. When enough people decide that they don't want to do business with these types, they will quietly go away. Until then, they are meeting a demand. >>
just a though, they could do worse, turn it into the bank or buy a meal at McDonalds at face value
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
Remember that many of these people have past retirement age a long time ago (to say it nicely)...they do not have the internet or other resources many of us have available. So educating themselves might be more difficult than you would think.
Dennis >>
Dennis I agree with you on this point. Senior citizens are victimized frequently. Unfortunately, it happens to them in just about every kind of transaction you can think of. To bash the admittedly "fly-by-night" PM buyers the way many do on this forum is unjustifiable. I am not a wholesale PM buyer, BUT these people provide a service. Fast food joints sell garbage for food, jewelry stores have possibly even bigger mark-ups on their products than these PM buyers discount their offers, profit on new cars are astronomical, OIL is another hot button. To label these "opportunists" as crooks, thieves, and many other inappropriate names is simply wrong. Check cashing services and Payday advance companies charge outrageous fees too, but they provide a service. No one forces people to do business with any of these operators. Their fees and below market offers are unconscionable, yet they prosper. Why? Because people choose to do business with them. When enough people decide that they don't want to do business with these types, they will quietly go away. Until then, they are meeting a demand. >>
just a though, they could do worse, turn it into the bank or buy a meal at McDonalds at face value
Well said!!!
Especially the part about turning it in to the bank!
We pay ZERO premiums!!
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If these guys never came around, the little old ladies would eventually find their way to the local B&M, pawn, or jewelry stores. Hopefully, not the last 2 as they will
probably get ripped worse from these guys. Last time I tried a jewelry for 18k gold chains they were paying 20c of spot, and that was the best jeweler out of 3, all
nationally known firms.
roadrunner
<< <i>To bash the admittedly "fly-by-night" PM buyers the way many do on this forum is unjustifiable. >>
Not only is it justifiable, it's practically a moral demand.
Your "every man for himself" philosophy is not acceptable to me.
Saying that the hotel buyers should be excused since there are other crooks too is just laughable.
Perhaps you'd like to live to a Randian objectivist society but I find that concept revolting.
YMMV
<< <i>How about "the people" educate themselves! Now that's a novel idea these days. Personal responsibility!!
And it's quite clear that the "personal responsibility" that the sellers _may_ be lacking _in some cases_ is _greatly_ dwarfed by the lack of personal or corporate responsibility that the buyers are _deliberately_ exercising. IOW, please do not use the "personal responsibility" gambit to shift the blame to the victims from the con artists where it actually belongs.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>To bash the admittedly "fly-by-night" PM buyers the way many do on this forum is unjustifiable. >>
Not only is it justifiable, it's practically a moral demand.
Your "every man for himself" philosophy is not acceptable to me.
Saying that the hotel buyers should be excused since there are other crooks too is just laughable.
Perhaps you'd like to live to a Randian objectivist society but I find that concept revolting.
YMMV >>
So now GM, Ford, Roger's Jewelers, McDonalds are all crooks?
This is how we as a country are over $14 Trillion in debt. Everyone wants somebody else to take care of them! Give me healthcare, give me food stamps, give me YEARS of unemployment benefits, give me social security, give me this give me that.... and by the way protect me from myself! If I sell ANYTHING for less than what it's worth make somebody FIX it!
Well, I have to go back to work so that I can pay ALL of my taxes. To keep it COIN RELATED, I am tired of looking after everyone else.... I would like to keep some of my hard earned money so that I can buy a nice Doily holdered coin!
PERSONAL REPONSIBILITY not just a novel idea.... it should be a way of life in a free society!
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Along the same line of thought.... Do you have any idea how much COIN the popcorn in a movie theater actually costs? Do you understand the profit margin on a large tub of popcorn? THOUSANDS of percent!!! Does anyone force you to spend you COINS on that? Why is this example any different? Willing buyer, willing seller. Is the buyer getting ripped off? Probably. Where is the outcry against all of the movie concessionairres???
I like to spend whatever coinage I have left after taxes on my hobby..... NUMISMATICS!
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<< <i>Personal responsibility is not a novel idea... it used to be the norm in this country. Things have changed - I will say no more. Cheers, RickO >>
Ricko, your posts are typically spot on in my book!!
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I took a 1936 proof set, a 1950 proof set and a Dansco 7070 US Type Set album (partially filled with MS coins and circulated coins) to show the hotel buyer representative. I played dumb, dressed down and said my father died and I inherited his collection. I had stopped by a local B&M and talked to the dealer. He looked at what I was going to take to the hotel buyers and said he would pay between $8K-9K for my stuff, maybe even more. He was also curious about what the hotel buyer would offer.
I received an offer of $3,200.00. I was surprised I got an offer that high. I was expecting maybe $1,000.00.
I begged off, saying that I had to check with my better half first. The hotel buyer was very bummed out that I would not sell and he kept following me down the hall to the elevator trying to get me to change my mind. There were a constant stream of people loaded down with boxes of coins waiting to meet with the hotel buyers. These people ran the spectrum, old and young, down on their luck and looking like a million dollars, every ethnic group you could think of, male and female [funny to see husbands and wives; or boyfriends and girlfriends showing up where in most cases the woman was holding the boxes of coins looking like she was going to handle the negotiations while the man sat meekly by].
I do not like the hotel buyers, but if people do not educate themselves about the value of what they have then who is to say that these sales are not OK. Personal responsibility is the key and it makes no sense to have "Big Brother" step into the protect those who are lazy and dumb from the consequences of their own ignorance. If anything, seniors and other persons who are susceptible to being taken advantage of should be looked after by family members and friends instead of Big Brother.
<< <i>I do not like the hotel buyers, but if people do not educate themselves about the value of what they have then who is to say that these sales are not OK. Personal responsibility is the key and it makes no sense to have "Big Brother" step into the protect those who are lazy and dumb from the consequences of their own ignorance. If anything, seniors and other persons who are susceptible to being taken advantage of should be looked after by family members and friends instead of Big Brother. >>
Well said!
And Geoman said:
I thought about taking out a competing full-page ad but found out the cost was over $1,000 for a full page color ad. So I didn't.
Well, you had an opportunity and you chose not to take it. Someone else did and you complain about their need to cover expenses (besides the ad, they have the hotel rental, travel, etc.)
There are plenty of businesses that would not exist if it weren't for stupid people. For example, casinos and the credit card industry. Should they be prohibited from doing business, as well?