Question for the "Big Boys" about white coins.

beckes · April 25, 2011 8:09AM

Forgive me if this has been discussed before.

When I see top notch coins sold, many times they say, "no toning whatsoever", "blast white", etc.

Here are my questions.

-Are they considered more desirable on the really high graded coins?

-If I have a MS-67 Morgan that is toned, should I have the toning removed? (Yes I have one.) LOL, I really do!

-If it is a DMPL, are those more valuable being white?

This being said, the toner folks are going to tell me I am crazy. Trade Dollar Nut's Trade collection is beautifully toned, no doubt at all.

Why do the big auction houses say, "no toning"?

(Please, not intending to start a toning war here. I personally like them better. Just wondering WHY?)

questor54 · April 25, 2011 8:13AM

There are fashions in coin collecting like everything else. A while ago, blast white coins were all the rage, and many toners were destroyed by dipping. Today, toned coins are in fashion. Tomorrow, who knows?

You can always dip a toner more quickly than natural toning can be replaced.

I dared to answer even though I am not a Big Guy (except on my waistline).

beckes · April 25, 2011 8:17AM

<< I dared to answer even though I am not a Big Guy (except on my waistline). >>

LOL! When I say Big Boys, I am seeing 500K coins that say "White"! While not in poverty here, I have to send my 18 year old to school!!! So I'll be there soon!

TorinoCobra71 · April 25, 2011 8:24AM

<< -If it is a DMPL, are those more valuable being white? >>

IMHO Yes!

BillJones · April 25, 2011 8:30AM

I have only spent a 6-figure price on only one coin. So you can take me responses from that perspective.

<< -Are they considered more desirable on the really high graded coins? >>

Not as far as I'm concerned. Unless it is a Morgan dollar that has spent almost all of its existence in a bag of dollar in a treasury vault, chances are it has been dipped. To me most dipped coins can’t grade any higher than MS-66, and that is a stretch. If I can’t tell that it has been dipped then the dipping was done so well that I can’t tell the difference so high grade coins like that can grade higher. But by in large most dipped coins lose something and that something is a loss in grade, usually no better than MS or PR-64.

<< -If I have a MS-67 Morgan that is toned, should I have the toning removed? (Yes I have one.) LOL, I really do! >>

Only if you want the grade to be lower when you send it in for certification. Dipping such a coin will only lower the grade 95+% of the time. If it is toned, it's in a major grading service slab, leave it alone.

<< -If it is a DMPL, are those more valuable being white? >>

That is possible, but chances are the dipped process would impair the DMPL appearance which could lower the grade. If it’s toned and in the holder with a grade you like, LEAVE IT ALONE! High grade coins are very fragile and messing with them will almost always work to your disadvantage.

BigMoose · April 25, 2011 8:39AM

beckes, Morgan Dollars that are truly DMPL by PCGS's current standards AND also have attractive to monster toning are Extremely hard to come by, especially so in gem grades. I know several collectors of toned Morgan Dollars, myself included, who would happily pay you a princely sum for such a coin. TomT.

keyman64 · April 25, 2011 8:40AM

All White Coins are favored by some. I favor them. I consider them "original" because that is the way they left the mint....but sometimes the removal of dirt is necessary to get them that way. The dipping into acetone or MS70 seems to be accepted by many, including PCGS. These products do not harm the coin itself but should only be used on high MS coins where the surface of the coin has not been disturbed.

Most toning is neutral and does not take away from the coin. Some toning is spectacular with rainbows etc. Some is unattractive and dark. At least 90% of the time, if a coin is truly toned, it will not be totally removed by acetone or MS70. Most toning "gets into the surface of a coin" and it is my opinion that you should not try to change that....in my opinion.

Some blast white coins can command a premium, some rainbow coins can command a premium....but in the middle of the road you have toning that is considered neutral.

Here are a few coins to ponder.

Blast White CAC Coin that commanded a premium for its grade:

Here is a very lightly and EVENLY toned coin, besides the toning spot on the lower bands. Most of the 31-D coins that are graded MS67FB have been a bit on the ugly side with toning...from what I have seen at auctions over the past year. This coin is not strong for the grade but it makes up for it with the even and light attractive toning...kinda. At least that is what I tell myself at night when I try to go to sleep. I paid a hefty premium for the lack of ugly toning, the pedigree and because it was a HOT auction with a couple of crazy people like me bidding out of control....

Toning that I think is cool but some people do not like it...so on the balance it is neutral. I was lucky to get this coin cheap!

A rare coin that I got cheap, I do not think anyone else bid on it. It is actually a little darker than this. UNATTRACTIVE TONING

Another UNATTRACTIVE TONING coin. I got it super cheap. It was in an ANACS 64FB holder before PCGS killed me because the coin is ugly. Lucky for me I found a nice upgrade that is with PCGS right now getting graded.

Here is a mystery for me. I think this coin has NEUTRAL toning BUT...when PCGS got a hold of it I think they graded me down for eye appeal for the toning. I do not see the hits on this coin that cause it to be MS62FB. Maybe someone else can tell me.

To sum it up you have attractive toning and white coins that people pay a premium for, you have just about everything else in the middle....and then you have the unattractive examples.

keyman64 · April 25, 2011 8:46AM

Oops...I am just a "little boy" and your post seems to be geared towards only big silver dollars.

I think what I posted is rather universal though.

llafoe · April 25, 2011 8:52AM

<< Oops...I am just a "little boy" and your post seems to be geared towards only big silver dollars.

I think what I posted is rather universal though. >>

It's okay... just post 4 more dimes and you'll be up to a dollar!

magikbilly · April 25, 2011 8:57AM

Hi,

I am throwing my answer in despite my 28 inch waist.

Dip the DMPL a few times and see where the mirrors go. As far as what is desirable on "really high graded coins" all I can say is the collectors whose coins and experience I respect, like TDN who you mentioned, seem to prefer original surfaces.

Best,
Eric

beckes · April 25, 2011 8:59AM

<< Oops...I am just a "little boy" and your post seems to be geared towards only big silver dollars.

I think what I posted is rather universal though. >>

I officially retract the "Big Boys" comment. Sorry.

beckes · April 25, 2011 9:00AM

<< 

<< It's okay... just post 4 more dimes and you'll be up to a dollar!

>>

What a great comment! Still laughing!!

MikeInFL · April 25, 2011 9:00AM

Some people like blonds, some people like brunettes.

Some people like Fords, some people like Chevys.

Some people like white coins, some people like toned coins.

beckes · April 25, 2011 9:03AM

<< Hi,

I am throwing my answer in despite my 28 inch waist.

Dip the DMPL a few times and see where the mirrors go. As far as what is desirable on "really high graded coins" all I can say is the collectors whose coins and experience I respect, like TDN who you mentioned, seem to prefer original surfaces.

Best,
Eric >>

Thanks.

When I get a chance, I'll post a pic of my "Old ANA Holder DMPL". It is still there, but you have to hold it right into the Sun! HAHAHAHA

keyman64 · April 25, 2011 9:07AM

<< Some people like blonds, some people like brunettes.

Some people like Fords, some people like Chevys.

Some people like white coins, some people like toned coins. >>

But then are you hybrids/mix-breeds/average. But there is almost always the UNIVERSAL UGLIES as well.

I feel compelled to create a beautiful chart in Photoshop corresponding to value/desire and the colors of coins. This can be fun!...I have ideas. Scary!

keyman64 · April 25, 2011 9:08AM

<< 

<< Oops...I am just a "little boy" and your post seems to be geared towards only big silver dollars.

I think what I posted is rather universal though. >>

It's okay... just post 4 more dimes and you'll be up to a dollar!

>>

Larry, that was clearly the post of the day! I had not idea I posted 6 freakin' dimes...kinda thought it was 3 or 4. Oops.

golfer72 · April 25, 2011 9:26AM

Someone please explain to me how the 1931 is 5 GRADES HIGHER than the 1928. Unreal. The 28 has fewer marks and no way does any luster make it grade 5 points higher. What say you? And save the "you cant grade from a picture" nonsense too please.

llafoe · April 25, 2011 9:27AM

<< Someone please explain to me how the 1931 is 5 GRADES HIGHER than the 1928. Unreal. The 28 has fewer marks and no way does any luster make it grade 5 points higher. What say you? And save the "you cant grade from a picture" nonsense too please. >>

You can't grade from a picture!

Monstarcoins · April 25, 2011 9:29AM

<< Someone please explain to me how the 1931 is 5 GRADES HIGHER than the 1928. Unreal. The 28 has fewer marks and no way does any luster make it grade 5 points higher. What say you? And save the "you cant grade from a picture" nonsense too please. >>

The 31 has fewer marks in focal areas and luster

tradedollarnut · April 25, 2011 10:16AM

Toned can be sexy.

White can be sexy.

What isn't sexy is murky toning that hides the luster or dipped out white that burned away the luster.

beckes · April 25, 2011 10:55AM

<< Toned can be sexy.
What isn't sexy is murky toning that hides the luster or dipped out white that burned away the luster. >>

Hey!

Since I do not know you personally, yet know your name, I'll just call you "High Rent!" HAHAHAHAHA!! Kidding of course!

You can certainly answer the question. Is it possible for a 67-68, (I HATE the word DIPPED), coin to grade?

Thanks John!

bidask · April 25, 2011 10:58AM

<< 

<< I dared to answer even though I am not a Big Guy (except on my waistline). >>

LOL! When I say Big Boys, I am seeing 500K coins that say "White"! While not in poverty here, I have to send my 18 year old to school!!! So I'll be there soon! >>

Are you sure there is a 500k coin that is white? What is it?

beckes · April 25, 2011 11:05AM

[qAre you sure there is a 500k coin that is white? What is it?

>>

I was looking at this one.

White Coin

keyman64 · April 25, 2011 11:19AM

<< [qAre you sure there is a 500k coin that is white? What is it?

>>

I was looking at this one.

White Coin >>

Ahhhhhhhh! Stand Alone POP TOP!...and ALL WHITE! Very Rare Item There!

bidask · April 25, 2011 11:26AM

<< [qAre you sure there is a 500k coin that is white? What is it?

>>

I was looking at this one.

White Coin >>

Sure as hell is......thank you!

tradedollarnut · April 25, 2011 12:43PM

Is it possible for a 67-68, (I HATE the word DIPPED), coin to grade?

Of course. Plenty of 67's and 68's have been dipped.

Overdipped or dipped out is a completely different matter...

beckes · April 25, 2011 1:32PM

<< Is it possible for a 67-68, (I HATE the word DIPPED), coin to grade?

Of course. Plenty of 67's and 68's have been dipped.

Overdipped or dipped out is a completely different matter... >>

Greetings Sir:

Where would you send your coins to be "improved?"

If I try this myself, I will definately be Screwed!

Thanks!

roadrunner · April 25, 2011 1:47PM

The further you go back into the 19th century the less that a white coin seems to be tolerated. One just doesn't expect to see a blast white bust dollar for example
as they rarely look "right" when pure white. Most of the time those early 19th century coins (or 18th century) have been dipped multiple times to keep them white.
And at that point they are now longer truly gem coins. One of my favorite all white coins is the 1838 no drapery seated quarter in MS68. No doubt dipped in the past
50 yrs but it has managed to stay essentially white since it was first slabbed in the late 1980's. Many other coins aren't so lucky turning a dingy brown over 5-20 yrs.
Then they require another dipping to make them white again and the luster gets weaker. They guy that made the coin won't care as he won't own it in 5-20 yrs
when the next owner has to decide whether to redip it or not.

roadrunner

poorguy · April 25, 2011 10:42PM

I'd rather have this:

Than this:

That being said, I do appreciate nicely cameoed proof Morgans, Trade dollars, and Seated dollars. Sometimes a light dipping will do a dirty coin good. However, dipping can haze up mirrors and damage coins if done improperly.

JJM · April 25, 2011 10:54PM

I prefer Toned coins all day long......................

ricko · April 25, 2011 11:02PM

When discussing the surface condition of coins (specifically tarnish), the desirability of such coins runs the full gamut. My preference is blast white, others dislike that condition. Some really like what most would call 'ugly' tarnish, others prefer the rainbow monsters. When considering marketability, two things come into play... what does the majority of the market favor (for optimal sales opportunities) and can you find the 'right' buyer. If not selling, then it is solely what pleases you - the collector. Cheers, RickO

tradedollarnut · April 25, 2011 11:54PM

Where would you send your coins to be "improved?"

Buy coins that don't need to be 'improved'. The true bargain in numismatics are high end coins whose value is limited by the grade on the insert, not by the quality of the coin.

PQueue · April 26, 2011 2:01AM

Buy coins that don't need to be 'improved'. The true bargain in numismatics are high end coins whose value is limited by the grade on the insert, not by the quality of the coin.

A lot of wisdom from TDN in this thread. Sometimes it seems many people here don't know PQ when they see it.

beckes · April 26, 2011 4:50AM

<< Where would you send your coins to be "improved?"

Buy coins that don't need to be 'improved'. The true bargain in numismatics are high end coins whose value is limited by the grade on the insert, not by the quality of the coin. >>

Wouldn't it be sweet to have been a PCGS grader for years and go to the shows doing a little shopping!!

Steve27 · April 26, 2011 4:57AM

"If I have a MS-67 Morgan that is toned, should I have the toning removed? (Yes I have one.) LOL, I really do!"

Leave it alone; you could end up removing the toning only to uncover a defect.

Rollerman · April 27, 2011 6:51AM

<< Someone please explain to me how the 1931 is 5 GRADES HIGHER than the 1928. Unreal. The 28 has fewer marks and no way does any luster make it grade 5 points higher. What say you? And save the "you cant grade from a picture" nonsense too please. >>

Your 1928 has the look of a coin that has been over dipped, since the luster is subdued considerably. NOW maybe if you were to move it around in your hand, you'd see the luster is underlaying that haze (if it is haze and not overdipped). I'd agree a 62 is a pretty big hit in view of the overall condition, but luster seems to count very strongly now as an eye appeal issue, and let's face it, your '28 does look a little washed out, whatever the reason.

Thanks for posting those, it was informative and interesting!
Pete

Question for the "Big Boys" about white coins.

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Question for the &quot;Big Boys&quot; about white coins.

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Question for the "Big Boys" about white coins.