Now let me get this straight. Toning on coins will be able to be duplicated so well that in a few years the toned market will fall apart. Ok, I could buy that. But at the same time, the ability to create bright white luster on untoned coins will become a reality, but........the "white blazer" coin market will NOT fall apart. Uh huh!
And I agree with EVP too. If he slips his coins in paper flips or Rayond holders, etc. why is that considered enhancing but when earlier collectors did it, it was something else?
I'm not dismissing Pushkin and even though I don't have any examples of ATs in slabs to show Robert Cambell does in his video and Braddick said he has seen it done firsthand. I believe all 3 of them may know what they're talking about.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i>Robert Cambell does in his video and Braddick said he has seen it done firsthand. I believe all 3 of them may know what they're talking about. >>
Look at the video. It tells a story of how opportunists can tone coins and sell them to make generous profits. I worked too long for Ananconda's non-ferrous metals manufactiring plants between 1972 - 1989 to see what can be done with 151 different alloys, including the coin stock we made for the mint each year in our Buffalo, NY plant. I spent countless days with research mettalurgists on processes designed to MINIMIZE or ELIMINATE discoloration of in-process metal being sent through gas-fired annealing furnaces prior to final rolling to gauge.
There are many, many ways to add oxidation to non-ferrous alloys when subjecting them to several manufacturing processes. The coin doctors are merely focusing on honing in on the chemicals, temperatures and atmospheres required to get the effects WE tried to eliminate in our manufacturing processes. Our customers wanted bright, clean metal. The mint was one of thousands of our customers.
My experience from another perspective.
Tony
BS Industrial Engineering, AS in Metallurgy 30 years experience in the manufacturing industry
AND ANOTHER THING, it don't take a rocket scientist and a fancy high tech lab to do tone a coin either. The guys that put the chemicals on your Morgans the first time to give them their "original" monster tone back in the 1800s were not rocket scientists nor working in a high tech lab.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
The thing about AT is that every few years someone will come up with a new process that looks really good... for awhile. I bought a PCGS 66 Connecticut half at one point that I thought was a lock for an upgrade. The color was incredible and had none of the tipoffs to AT that I was familiar with at the time (and besides, PCGS had graded it). Well, to make a long story short, after attempting to resubmit the coin several times for upgrade, both I and PCGS had seen this SAME toning on a number of different commem issues and other non-commems as well. I eventually ended up with a coin that had to be dipped to get graded at all (MS-64). We all have our lessons learned stories...
Sorry to hear it, Will. Back in the early 1990's I put together a collection of toned Washington Carver commems grading MS65, all in NGC holders (with the exception of the 53-D, which was PCGS65 Shepherd, and I might add the least attractive of them all. No offense Larry, if you're reading this). These were incredibly toned color coins. I came to believe they were too good to be true. Even with NGC's blessing stamped on them. I think at least half if not more wore AT'd. I sold them all back then. The dealer I sold them to didn't care whether they might be AT or not. I hope somehow they are out of circulation, so to speak. I don't think anyone familiar with Carvers, or commemoratives in general would be fooled by them today. I had to learn the hard way not to assume that because it's slabbed by a major service it hasn't been altered. A little skepticism can be a healthy thing.
Interesting discussion on all sides. I'm not a chemist or metallurgiest so I've got no clue what is possible today given the right knowledge and equipment. I'm also not sure if you should put the collector that decides to take his chances putting coins in a cardboard folder and letting them sit for a few years not knowing for sure what he'll end up with in the same class as the professional doctor (taking as a given Pushkin's comments) who through experimentation has perfected a method to obtain the desire results in a few hours, days or weeks.
That said those that care about the hobby should not have a cavalier attitude regarding the subject of artificial enhancement of coins. It impacts both collectors and dealers economically by devaluing the coins that have by historical happenstance arrived in blast white or beautifully toned condition.
The argument that if you don't know the history of the coin from the time it left the mint you can't know whether the toning is ATed or not may be technically true (no I wasn't there over the last 167 years to see how my 1835 Eliasberg Quarter got its toning) but in practical terms (knowing the history of the coin over the last 50 or 60 years) having some insight, knowledge and experience in the industry as Dragon mentioned nullifies that aspect of the argument to some extent.
I'm hoping the grading services will find a way to catch up and stay one step ahead of the doctors. As for collectors, dealers and anyone else that cares about the long term health of the hobby we should call these coin doctor/con-artist by their rightful names; they are thieves and a blight on the hobby.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
When I said " The guys that put the chemicals on your Morgans the first time to give them their "original" monster tone back in the 1800s were not rocket scientists nor working in a high tech lab." That sounds weird, like there were coin DR back then but the mint workers used grease, lye, sulfuric acid and sawdust not to mention extreme heat from the press to create your monsters. All part of the normal minting process. If it wasn't for these primitive chemicals applied to the coins surface the bag would have toned the coins solid black.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I remain solidly behind my statement that “if you don’t know the history, you don’t know the coin”. Oxidization reactions between metals and various oxidizing agents (remember that oxidization is a reaction where atoms lose electrons and the valence of the elements is correspondingly increased, and where metals form oxides) produce the colors, along with corresponding changes in the reflectivity and light absorption characteristics of the metal’s surface. Silver and pure oxygen produce a nice, pure black, tone. Primarily sulfur compounds, but also chlorines, ureas (urinals are great for toning) and others produce both the ugly and beautiful colored tones. The chemical reactions may be the result of “natural processes” or human induced, or a combination or both. Unless you know the coin's history, you don’t know how the coin got its tone.
It may have “naturally” sat in a bag that was made of high sulfur content cloth, or been artificially exposed to a high sulfur content atmosphere over a much shorter period of time. Some would say if the coin accidentally fell between two loose boards of a floor in a chemical factory in 1880 in Amesbury, MA, then it obtained its tome naturally, but if it was put there on purpose, then it is artificial.
Metallurgy is not an exact science, (when I worked in the field we called it “witch’s brew”, because there was a lot of mixing of metals in the hope that the resultant alloy would “behave” according to theory. It doesn’t take extensive research facilities and the super technology to color metals – as Dog97 pointed out, its been going on for years – but the technology can help.
Anyway, you cannot tell for sure what the circumstances were that resulted in the various chemical reactions that resulted in toning – the atoms don’t care! I doubt if there is any real agreement on what “natural toning” really means. Those carbon spots, if they are caused by a human sneeze, are they unnatural, but if caused by the coin owners or the Mint’s mascot dog’s (no pun intended, Dog97) cough, then natural? The coin that falls to the floor of the chemical factory, is I more natural than the one placed in the accountant’s desk drawer and left there for 20 years? Perhaps 70 years ago some mint workers played around with some acids and other chemicals, and then shipped some coins out – is that action natural or unnatural? I don’t know.
Concerning the ethics of AT, if somebody intentionally toned a coin and tried to sell it, deliberately keeping its history secret, I personally would say that was unethical. But I would also say that someone insisting that the coin they are selling is natural, because they believe it is, but don’t know the history (so it is natural based on belief, and perhaps a dose of pride) is also being unethical. So for me – don’t lie (including to yourself), cheat or steal and you are probably being ethical.
Finally, who has the most to lose from professional ATing (I mean the real good stuff) if the practice becomes widely acknowledged and widespread? I suggest the following:
1. The professional coin doctors – they would kill their own market - they are not going to tell. 2. The collectors who have invested heavily in what they believe to be natural toning. 3. The professionals who claim to be able to distinguish all AT – they lose their status, and probably their financial interest.
Using your logic, you probably cannot even be sure that all the coins in your collection are not cleverly made counterfeits, can you? Unless you were at the mint at the time of the coins manufacture, watched the mint bag being loaded onto the truck, followed the truck to the Federal Reserve Bank, watched the bags being opened and the coins being rolled, and then purchased one of those rolls.....you cannot be ENTIRELY certain that you even own genuine US mint made coinage.
There are very clever people out there who are also probably very wealthy that could easily reproduce the various dies and correct planchets and strike exact reproductions with all of the various die diagnostics and all. Yes or no??
In actuality, your statements are 100% theory, conjecture and speculation and not based on any relevant specific examples, instances, or material facts.
I'd like to think that I have a fairly good idea of what I do and do not know. Counterfeiting is not an area where I have any particular knowledge; if you do, I'll accept your word on that.
<< <i> I worked too long for Ananconda's non-ferrous metals manufactiring plants between 1972 - 1989 to see what can be done with 151 different alloys, including the coin stock we made for the mint each year in our Buffalo, NY plant. I spent countless days with research mettalurgists on processes designed to MINIMIZE or ELIMINATE discoloration of in-process metal being sent through gas-fired annealing furnaces prior to final rolling to gauge. >>
I said this before. Wake up! Realize the facts. We were trying to keep 100 million pounds of metal from oxidizing in the manufacturing process. Naturally! So, the coin dr's can do what they want, and good, too.
Why don't you two guys stop the BS? I mean, metallurgists will tell you so. The Stuff oxidizes, damn*t!
1) Are there confirmed AT'd coins now in PCGS and NGC holders, 100% yes.
2) Are there cleaned, altered, and problem coins now in PCGS and NGC holders, 100% yes.
3) Does PCGS to this day occasionally let a problem or confirmed AT'd coin slip through the cracks, 100% yes.
4) Can the extremely talented coin docs occasionally get lucky and slip an AT'd coin past PCGS due to their haste in grading, 100% yes.
5) Can they also do this with consistent results and fool PCGS at will with their work, 100% no.
6) Are PCGS and NGC far more aware and sophisticated as to the various methods used by coin docs now as opposed to 5-10 yrs. ago, 100% yes.
7) Are the majority of AT'd coins done so to mask other problems as opposed to attempting to create value via the toning itself, most likely.
8) Can some of the incredibly vivid bag toned coins that have textile patterns and are toned in patterns that are known to be authentic be reproduced with ANY consistency by coin docs to fool the experts even 50% of the time, lets see some.
9) Is the market for beautifully toned coins going to fall apart anytime in the near future because of the talented coin docs, well see.
10) Are there light years of difference between being an expert in metallurgy and chemistry and physics and light refraction, and being an expert in numismatics and more specifically toned coins, 100% yes.
11) Can even the "best" work of the coin docs be spotted by an expert (not necessarily PCGS) using very strong magnification and experience, 100% yes IMO.
Where is the BS? That is exactly what I've been saying, and received a ton of flaming replies for having said it. If I say it, its BS, if you say it, its not?
I have read that the Omega Counterfeits (1926 $20 Gold) were so good that if the counterfeiter hadn't put his mark, a small Greek letter omega hidden on the coin, it probably never would have been discovered - but I don't have the references right in front of me to confirm this. Anybody out there know more about it?
Excellent Fakes In the 1970's, forgeries of a number of rare and very rare, valuable coins were produced. These were apparently made in the Lebanon by a Mr. Chaloub, and inspired or financed by an American called Harry Stock. the workmanship of this series of fakes was excellent. They were so good that a large number of highly priced coins found their way onto the market, having been bought by experienced dealers, and handled by famous auction houses. Some of the sovereign dates which appear in high quality fakes include 1822, 1827, 1832, 1887, 1916-C (Ottawa Mint, Canada), and 1917. These are all London mint coins (no mintmark), except where specified. Most of these dates are scarce or rare. The 1917 London, for example, catalogues at £2750 in EF condition, and the 1916-C at £7000.
Discussions of what we can and cannot know with absolute certainty is a dog chasing his tail. What I do know is that this type of doctoring hurts the hobby/industry.
Pushkin
It's true that I can't know with "absolute certainty" what might have been done to my Eliasberg Quarter. That said I can have a "high level of certainty" based on what I do know about the history of the coin, the technology available for ATing coins during the period in question and my own knowledgable eyes (as well as the eyes at PCGS) that the coin has not been doctored.
Now someone might want to play Johnny Cochran (DNA is only 99.9999999% accurate) but in the real world most decisions are based on reasonable doubt or reasonable assurance. That sense of doubt or assurance is based on the knowledge and experienced gain over the years (in the case of some on the board many years and tens of thousands of coins) which serves to offer a fairly high level of protection and certainty (although granted it's not 100%) against the thieves and con-artist that call themselves coin "doctors".
What I don't like hearing is that since we can't know with "absolute certainty" then we should just throw open the flood gates and allow this stuff to go on unchallenged. I also don't like hearing that if it's attractive then whether it's ATed or not shouldn't matter. It matters in a general way because it cast more uncertainty into a market that's got enough image problems. It also conveys the attitude that if you can get away with it it's o.k.
Doctoring coins is not a victimless crime. Some might scoff at the use of the term crime but it's the right word used in the correct context. Doctoring devalues the coins that have obtained attractive natural toning (natural meaning nothing intentional was done to enhance their appearance) and if we passively accept it it serves to debases the image of the hobby in general. Some might also scoff at the idea of originality and that since no coin minted 100+ years ago if it has naturally toned is really original. The use this as justification to proceed with whatever type of alterations they like. I don't accept that notion. Aging/toning was part of the natural process given the conditions that existed during most of the history of U.S. coinage (a few exceptions but for the most part this is true). The toning these coins obtained has become part of the history of the coin and is a testament to the coins originality. I, like many others in the hobby, value this originality. If someone wants to AT coins and sell them as pretty pieces of art let them do it above board (labeling their artwork as artifical enhancement) and let the market decide the worth of these coins based on having that knowledge.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I agree with most of what you say concerning the ethics and honesty of dealing in coins. I think it is wrong to deceive any buyer, period! I don't for one minute accept the Johnny Cochran DNA anology - beware of false anologies.
I don't accept the Johnny Cochran analogy either, meaning that there comes a point at which each person decides where reasonable doubt or reasonable certain weights heavily enough in one direction or the other that you make lifes decisions and live with the consequences.
Pointing out that you can't be sure about the nature of toning (how it happened) unless you followed the coin from the Mint to the present day is in an absolute sense (100% certainty) true but is analogues to letting O.J. go because DNA isn't 100%, not just because of the very, very small possibility that someone could have matching DNA but because of the circumstance surrounding the collection and analysis of the material used to make the DNA match. But DNA coupled with all of the other evidence (physical and circumstantial) made for a very good case that O.J. should be in jail.
The technical as well as the circumstantial evidence also makes it possible in the vast majority of situations to make a determination regarding the nature of toning with a high degree of certainty. Whether the good guys can come up with methods to detect the best the doctors can produce remains to be seen. What I don't want to see is a change in the general attitude among collectors that ATed or historical happenstance doesn't matter. That attitute total ignors the negative impact this practices has on collectors, dealers and the hobby in general.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Earlier in this this thread you made the following statement:
<< <i>Interesting discussion on all sides. I'm not a chemist or metallurgiest so I've got no clue what is possible today given the right knowledge and equipment. >>
Yet when the basics of toning technology are presented, you choose to completely deny what experts have said about the technology. Several members of this thread have mentioned instances of AT good enough to fool them or the services.
Scott Travers, in his book How to Make Money in Coins Right Now on page 46 states
<< <i>'Coin doctors" engage in very sophisticated methods of coin alteration and restoration, and many times these have fooled grading services >>
.
So, I really have difficulty with the circumstancial evidence argument. It seems to me that some who post to this thread are relying more on dogma and an "I'm right becuase I'm right" argument, rather than on evidence, including; technology, research, the experience of other collectors, and the experience of other experts.
one thing that has always intrigued me about the artificial toning vs. natural toning vs. original brilliant vs. dipped white discussion is that it's never speculated whether any of the percieved naturally toned coins were at one time dipped white and then retoned. would we then have a naturally AT'd/dipped coin?
these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty. in the end it seems they tend to end with the two sides of the debate struggling for the final word. they are if nothing else, amusing.
self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile.
"Yet when the basics of toning technology are presented, you choose to completely deny what experts have said about the technology."
On the contrary if you've read my posts I've taken as a given your assertion that the technology does exist that allows the best of the doctors to AT coins that the grading services have trouble identifying as ATed. I've worked in the electronics industry for over twenty-five years. I've seen what amounts to incredible developments in digital technology during that time. I just about never use the word "impossible".
I also know that we've got some very talent good guys on our side (I have a friend who is a Phd chemist, 50+ years in the hobby and has handled tens of millions of dollars of rare coins during his career) working hard at identifying whatever signs the doctor may be leaving behind (you two guys could probably have some very interesting conversations ). He and others like him are one of the reason I would never use the term "impossible to detect" .
As far as circumstantial evidence is concerned it can play a part in help to identify what coins might be ATed or natural. I would suppose that the methods for ATing coins have changed/improved over the last 5, 10, 15 years, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but I would also guess that the most sophisticated methods, those most difficult to detect, are those that have been developed most recently. If a particular coin was in an old time collection (of course a collector that would distain doctoring a coin ) for 50 years and then got slabbed in 1995 it is not likely that this coin was subjected to the most recent developments in AT technology. A close examination of the coin for technical signs that the coins was ATed along with the circumstantial evidence mention can provide a high level of certainty that the coin hasn't been doctored. Can I say with 100% certainty that the coin was not ATed? No. Was someone watching the coin ever minute. No. Could someone have taken the coin unbeknownst the owner to have it worked on and then replaced in the collection. I guess it's possible. My point is that using both technical investigation and circumstantial evidence it is possible to arrive at a high level of confidence that a particular coin hasn't been doctored.
My bottom line in all of this, the one thing I am sure of is that those that care about the hobby should not condone in any matter the undisclosed ATing of coins. If people know the coin has been doctored and don't mine that's their business. The best methods at ATing coins may make it very difficult to identify coins that have been doctored but it doesn't change the fact that doing it without disclosing it is criminal fraud that hurts the hobby and industry.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Have to comment on Pushkin's statement quoted above: urea is a synthetic compound used for many purposes. Most commonly, as a base for common fertilizer. It's made in a chemical plant using natural gas as a feedstock. Usually, it is pelletized (made into small size pellets) and sold in 50 - 500 pound bags or bales. When used as a base for fertilizer, the pellets are made water soluable (an additive is added to the urea) and the pellet is then coated with ammonia, manganese, phosphorous and other nutrients used by plants. Another common use is for kitchen counter top mateials (heated and formed by injection molding.) Etc, etc.
The reference to urinals confuses me? Do you mean an atmosphere of "urine" can tone a coin? Seems possible, as urine contains ammonia (NH3, NH4), a nitrogen compound that is "reactive" to certain metals. Never thought of hanging a Morgan by a string in a urinal to subject it to urine vapors! May just work fine given some time!
Just commenting on an earlier post.
DISCLAIMER: 1.) not trying to be sarcastic, arrogant, aloof, a smart a**; 2.) Nor am I intending to insult anyone's intellegence. 3.) Please forgive me if this post offends anyone I have not covered in 1. & 2. 4.) This post also is not meant to be driscrimintary to race, creed, color, ethnic background, sexual affiliation or other group of beings not identified here, including aliens living on Earth or from some other planet.
It is well documented that the counterfeiters of some ancient Greek, Roman, and Byzantine coins use urine to produce patinas, and often bury the coins in soil that was formally an outdoor latrine. The urea and urine reference is more accurate for adding patinas on copper/bronze coins. I probably should not have mentioned it since the discussion primarily has focused on silver.
The "urine patinas" are usually applied to counterfeits that are sold to tourists. You are certainly welcome to hang up some Morgans in the Men's Room at the bus station and see what happens - OK, they will be stolen first.
Dragon & both know our Morgans and this is my difference of opinion: 7) Are the majority of AT'd coins done so to mask other problems as opposed to attempting to create value via the toning itself, most likely. I say YES in the case of raw coins but slabbed AT coins are for the tone prem; problem coins can be sent to ACG, ANACS, SEGS etc cheap but sell for decent prices if they are key coins.
9) Is the market for beautifully toned coins going to fall apart anytime in the near future because of the talented coin docs, well see. A big NO.
10) Are there light years of difference between being an expert in metallurgy and chemistry and physics and light refraction, and being an expert in numismatics and more specifically toned coins, 100% yes. Not light years but some difference.
11) Can even the "best" work of the coin docs be spotted by an expert (not necessarily PCGS) using very strong magnification and experience, 100% yes IMO. I don't think a coin Dr can make coins like Art posts from a brilliant BU model but I think he can take an already toned coin and improve on it and nobody can tell.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Pushkin: thanks for the education on ancient coins toning techniques. Good stuff! Yeah, the Morgans would be stolen, I'm sure!
I find this area of toning coins facinating as it is not something you would try to have happen (to metals) in industry where I have spent three decades. I might put a few coins in some well chosen places at work this week to see what might happen.
Actually, cat urine is great for adding a fast patina to coppers. Human urine after a large tomato-based pasta dinner works well too.
I've been thinking of writing a research paper on the subjet for submission to Trans Amer Soc Metals for peer review and publication, but you know how difficult it is to find extra time.
Also, the JAX line of artificial patinas work very well - the sculpters use them all the time - I don't know what is in them.
Pushkin: Yes, cat urine is very strong stuff. I had a "visiting" cat spend the night in the back seat of my truck and it left a real mess. That was three years ago. On occasion, I still sense a whiff of it (after professional cleaning). That (AT) would be a great topic for a paper, but I know how busy we can get. I travel on business each week and can't find time for the normal stuff.
Where can find information on the JAX line of artifical patina you mentioned?
"self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile."
That statement is a smoke screen and diversion.
Fact 1 - In the vast majority of case we can know with a very high level of certainty whether a coin has been doctored.
Fact 2 - ATing coins and selling them without telling the buyer that the coin has been ATed is fraud and hurts the hobby and coin industry.
"it's never speculated whether any of the percieved naturally toned coins were at one time dipped white and then retoned. would we then have a naturally AT'd/dipped coin?"
Another diversion that has zero bearing on the main point of this discussion, the ethics of ATing coins. Are there coins that have been dipped in the past and naturally toned afterwards. Absolutely. How that connects with what I think the general attitute of those involved in the hobby should be towards the fraud perpetrated by coin doctors escapes me.
"these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty"
Speculative knowledge...Pushkin is a chemist, we've had some feedback from a person with vast experience in metallurgy, you've got a few collectors that have chimed in who have examine tens of thousands of coins including thousands of toned coins. I've had numerous discussions with a number of chemist with educational levels up to Phd. Where is the speculative knowledge, unless you call Pushkin's definitive statement "I have no doubt that there are people with the skill and resources necessary to fool anybody" since he of course does not know everybody .
Pushkin
"I would suggest some of us stop worrying about "AT" or "natural". If there is beauty there, enjoy it - because again, "if you don't know the history, you don't know the coin".
I can't disagree with you more. You may view your statement as a reflection of a realistic attitude but it's an attitude that I don't subscribe to. First, because doctoring coins and not identifying the alteration is (and I'll keep repeating it as long as I can keeping finding the keys on the keyboard) wrong and is a blight on the hobby which collectors in general (no matter how good the doctors get at it and how difficult it may be to identify) should frowned on. Second, even though I take your statements at face value regarding your expertise in the field of chemist/metallurgy one thing I am sure of is you don't know it all. You might think that's a weak foundation to build my hopes on but based on my conversations with another Phd chemist (granted he doesn't know it all either ) signatures of the doctors work are there to find if you know what to look for (of course he never shares the really secret stuff with me).
O.K. enought of the heady technical stuff that the average collector (including myself) probably can't fully absorb. What each of us can do as collectors is express our disdain for any type of intentional alteration of a coin in an attempt to commit fraud. The isn't a matter of personal taste. If you like color on your coins regardless of how the coin obtain the color that's fine but doctoring should be identified so that those that what to make that choice can. The reason the doctors don't identify there work is obvious, most collectors do not condone this practice and would not pay a premium for coins that have been munipulated in this way.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
"self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile."
that statement was intended towards predictions of how AT will effect the hobby in the future---opinion.
"it's never speculated whether any of the percieved naturally toned coins were at one time dipped white and then retoned. would we then have a naturally AT'd/dipped coin?"
that statement is directed at pretentious knowledge of the history of a coin which is a responded to part of the topic begun early in the thread with a post by pushkin.
"these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty"
speculation relates to "guessing" and much of the discussion centers on points which can't be proven yet the majority is expressed as gospel. thank you for defending pushkin. my remarks were intended least of all towards him and more towards those involved in the discussion who's inference is one of superior understanding on the subject of AT identification. as to lengthy threads, do a little history check.
no smoke screens or diversions. i shoot straight from the hip, believe me. possible defensive reaction on your part. you seem to be closely tied to the AT issue past your expressed wish to save the hobby from fraud and to enlighten us all as to your understanding of the issue. very confusing. rest assured though, my speculation is that we will all come through it OK!!
All coin doctors need their legacy inscribed for all to read on their tombstone.
" Here lies (insert name here) who’s only accomplishment in life was to totally screw up the hobby he professed to love so much because he was one stupid greedy BA$TARD"
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
"that statement was intended towards predictions of how AT will effect the hobby in the future---opinion."
We've gone over the whole idea of what can be known with absolute certain. Putting that chasing of the tail argument behind us we're left with informed opinion as to the affect Ated coins have on the market place. I don't need to guess at some of what will happen because we've seen some of the results. It also doesn't take a lot of guess work or imagination to know that injecting more uncertainty into a market for coins that already require some expertise to indentify whether they have or have not been doctor does to the market. I don't see what you describe as "self-righteous indignation" anywhere in the discussion and especially not with respect to informed predictions on how coin doctoring affects the market.
"that statement is directed at pretentious knowledge of the history of a coin which is a responded to part of the topic begun early in the thread with a post by pushkin."
The surface of a coin DO tell a story and give some indication of the history of the coin. Prior cleaning, retoning and other changes can be identified though close examination. Can I know everything about a coins history unless I've owned it from the time it left the coining press? Of course not but a lot can be learn about the history of a coin via a thorough examination of the coin, especially when it relates to intentional alterations of the surfaces.
"speculation relates to "guessing" and much of the discussion centers on points which can't be proven yet the majority is expressed as gospel"
Be specific. What exact was being guessed at. In the vast majority of cases coins that have been artifically toned can be identified. I don't think anyone, Pushkin included, refutes that. I've never argued that the very best tone doctors haven't fooled the grading services. What is debatable is whether the doctors have come up with a process that is "impossible" to detect. I ultimately differ that argument to those who are a lot smarter and have a lot more experience than I do to debate.
"my remarks were intended least of all towards him and more towards those involved in the discussion who's inference is one of superior understanding on the subject of AT identification"
Why is it "inference" of superior understand? Is it a problem to find out that someone just might have a superior knowledge regarding a particular subject? Don't you think there just might be some collectors on this forum who have been involved in numismatic study for 20 or 30 or 40 years or more just might have a superior knowledge over you and me?
"no smoke screens or diversions. i shoot straight from the hip, believe me. possible defensive reaction"
No defensive reaction on my part; you shot from the hip and missed the target. This issue isn't "righteous indignation" or "inference ... of superior understanding" or "speculation" and "guessing".
Fraudalent acts (read that as doctored coins and not disclosing the alterations) hurts the hobby. It's something those that care about the health of the hobby should frown on because of its negative affects. Most coins that have been Ated can be, through a thorough examination, be identified as such. Condoning the doctoring just because there have been improvements in the product they produce rewards their dishonesty and discounts the harm they do to the hobby in general.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
you shot from the hip and missed the target. This issue isn't "righteous indignation" or "inference ... of superior understanding" or "speculation" and "guessing".
another board member has remarked that "we need an emoticon to represent the sound of a whoosh as a hand swings rapidly over your head" and at this point i'd have to agree. all those things are what these types of threads end up centering on. the irony in where the discussion ends up----with proof wanted from your side of the arguement-----is by the very nature of the beast exactly what you're not going to get. that would be rather self defeating, somewhat like the omega counterfeiter who was caught in part because his ego prompted him to "sign" his work. and just by the thread origin paragraph, it seems clear to the minimally observant that AT has already been perfected to a high degree. it's not a stretch to assume that many coins deemed authentic are in fact AT.
go reread some of your posting on this and other threads concerning the AT issue with an open mind and tell me that none of the above highlighted terms aren't accurate. you may also want to study my 10 and expanded to 12 reasons why it's fun to collect AT'd coins!! then climb out if the squirrel cage like i have.
"all those things are what these types of threads end up centering on"
Only if you allow them to.
I try not read into a post emotion that probably isn't there. I have no righteous indignation only a concern for the hobby that I really care about that in my "informed" opinion has been/is being damaged by the type of doctoring we've been discussing. I also try to stick to the facts and fortunately we've got experts on the board that can tell you very precisely what causes toning. But even those experts can't tell you with absolute 100% certainty that the work of a doctor is undetectable. The best they can give is the well informed opinion. The same is true regarding knowing absolutely 100% regarding the nature of toning on a coin unless of course you've owned the coin since the time it was minted. Somewhere short of absolute certainty we have these discussion and hopefully out of them learn a little more and gain some additional insight on the subject.
"with proof wanted from your side of the arguement-----is by the very nature of the beast exactly what you're not going to get. that would be rather self defeating, somewhat like the omega counterfeiter who was caught in part because his ego prompted him to "sign" his work. and just by the thread origin paragraph, it seems clear to the minimally observant that AT has already been perfected to a high degree. it's not a stretch to assume that many coins deemed authentic are in fact AT."
If claims are made is it wrong to ask for physical proof to back up those claim if it's possible to provide it? I wouldn't expect the doctors to provide the proof and probably whatever signs of doctoring the grading services have uncovered are not going to be shared with the general collecting population.
As far as I know no one has said that the grading services haven't been fooled in the past. The fact that they have is one of the reasons some legit coins don't get slabbed with the owners suffering the consequences. The services need to do a better job of keeping up with the doctors. But the fact that there have been some failures should not in my opinion be cause to raise up our collective hands and say the battles over and ATing coins and selling them without disclosing the alterations is o.k.
I'm pretty good at spotting the cruder forms of AT but I'm no expert. Some admire the work of the doctors and maybe on one level you can admire their knowledge and expertise. Having said that I don't applaud, condone or cheer for their success because the bottom line is what they do damages the hobby and industry. If I've driven anything home I hope it's that fact.
"we need an emoticon to represent the sound of a whoosh as a hand swings rapidly over your head"
I haven't figured that on out.
"then climb out if the squirrel cage like i have"
I live in the house, the squirrels are in the attic . They're crafty little critters. No matter how many times I get them out of the attic they always manage to chew their way in .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Sounds like some folks have some personal rather than factual differences with each other. So anyway, so why can't I use an empty mint sack to put some of my coins in it and control the temperature & humidity and make some new "original" bag toners. Couldn't I can make crescent rainbows, monochromes, wild beautiful monsters like sneaky snake sells and those "rare" textile toned ones? Oh yeah, because it's a high tech complicated thing and you have to be a metalurlogist or a rocket scientist to understand it.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
The frequency with which those rockets having been going up and then coming right back down and crashing - well you'll never get me in one. Rather take my chances stuck in a cloth bag with a bunch of Morgans and my cat!
Just don't do it with 2002 SAE's. The circumstantial evidence points to ATed
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
perhaps the following paragraph, taken from the july 12, 2002 grey sheet will help put things in perspective with regards to the topic of knowing a coins history before commenting on whether it is original, AT or whatever else is chosen to describe it. intersesting reading that isn't directed at bust halves, but all silver coins.
.......While on the subject of originality, I wish to point out there are very few 100% original Bust Halves, or other early Silver coins for that matter. Collectors regularly call me looking for a brilliant, original AU Bust Half for their Type set! Such a coin does not exist! Even those that are toned were likely dipped at one time or another and toned back naturally. Fortunately, coins were not hurt by dipping most of the time. Original, circulated coins are usually fairly dark gray or brownish gray. Mint state coins can have just a light, silvery gray patina to them, but more often they are more deeply toned shades of gray as well, sometimes with some color mixed in. Colorful toning around the periphery occurs from being in an old album where the cardboard had substantial sulfer in it. Usually these coins were cleaned or dipped(as was the custom of the day)before being put in the album. Nevertheless, these coins, often with stunning colors, are highly sought after even if they are not strictly original.......
i'll stick with my earlier statements about speculative knowledge, pretense and self righteous indignation when dearly held beliefs are called into question. this paragraph speaks volumes about the lack of original surfaces on the overwhelming majority of coins. whether natural toning or AT, none of us can say for sure without having been there, much as pushkin stated on , what, page 1 or 2 of this thread?!?!?!? i guess for some it's a bitter pill to swallow, but remember, the truth will set you free and sometimes that's after it hurts like hell!!
First, let's lose the "self-righteous indignation" and "bitter pill to swallow" and "truth will set you free and sometimes that's after it hurts like hell!!" Those comments add zero to the discussion and interject "your perception" of someone elses emotion attitude regarding this discussion that probably (and in my case definitely) don't exist.
I really don't have much dispute with the comments made by the author of the paragraph you quoted. With reference to Bust Halfs in particular I would totally agree that it would be a very unusual circumstance to find one of these coins in blast white condition that has not been dipped. Actually he says that an original blast white coin "does not exist" but I hesitate to speak in absolute terms since I (and probably he) hasn't examined every Bust Half (that 100% absolute certainty issue). He retreats from that type of dogmatic stance went it comes to his discussion of toned coins choosing to use the terms "likely" and "ususally".
The point still remains whether we can 100% identify a coin as being naturally toned or blast white or if that level of certainty is only 90% or 80% etc. doesn't IMHO legitimize the intentional doctoring of coins to commit fraud on collectors and dealers.
Now you can stick with your opinion regarding "speculative knowledge, pretense and self righteous indignation when dearly held beliefs are called into question" in the face of the facts and well informed opinion based on those facts and numerous years of experience expressed in this tread. You can call into question my motivation and emotional state (two things you know nothing about and which have no bearing on the facts and informed opinion I've expressed) but it doesn't help in making your case.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
if you read the post you will note that he states that "Usually these coins were cleaned or dipped(as was the custom of the day)before being put in the album." can you comment to that and to my earlier scoffed at comment as to whether a coin can be determined to be toned or dipped and retoned? i seriously doubt that you or any of the self-proclaimed experts can answer with any degree of certainty on that, and that is part of the ongoing nature of this thread---an insistence on an ability to determine real from AT, when quite logically what is percieved as real is in fact AT as a result of a previous dipping and retoning---so we find ourselves once again on the subject of commenting without a prior knowledge of a coins history(please see pushkin post).
how difficult is it for you, Paul, to say those difficult words "i don't know for sure." because you don't know for sure if the icon you use is original or not, and so it goes. as for your informed opinion, perhaps i can share a little of what my stubbornness has taught me. i ALWAYS think i'm correct, but i ALWAYS hold tightly to the idea that i may be wrong----that's a concept known as being openminded.
Why the emotional outburst? "scoffed at comment", "self-proclaimed expert", "those difficult words", "share a little of what my stubbornness has taught me"
First, I didn't scoff at any of your comments. You're reading into my comments emotion that's not there.
Second, I never said I was an expert at anything although some on the members on this board do have considerable expertise and I've read quite a bit of expert research and opinion (I've got more numismatic books than I have coins).
Third, I've been married for 28 years, I'm am well practiced in using the words "I'm sorry", "I'm wrong" and "I don't know".
Now to the issue at hand:
Evidence of prior cleaning (whether chemical or mechanic) in many cases can be detected even through the retoning. As far as chemical cleaning is concerned given high enough magnification the changes that take place in the microscoping flow lines during chemical cleaning are visible. Retoning may cover up some of the evidence of earlier cleaning but in many cases the signs can be found during close examination.
Here's a quote for the PCGS grading guide: "Once the original surface is removed from a coin by some type of commercial dip or cleaning, toning will no longer "adhere" in the same way it does with orignal coins."
Do you consider the graders and authenticators at PCGS experts or self-proclaimed experts?
Again, we can debate what level of certainty you can have regarding a coins "originality" and have a difference of opinion. Whether we can identify with 100% or 90% or 80% certainty which coins have been doctored doesn't change the truth regarding my initial premise, the intentional doctoring of coins in order to commit fraud hurts the hobby. And not being able to identify the doctoring 100% of the time doesn't IMHO mean that we should open the flood gates to this practice and condone it. I also am of the well informed opinion that you can with a high level of certain based on technical and circumstantial evidence determine whether a coin has/hasn't been doctored.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
It is with gold.
Got quoins?
You're full of crap Dragon and certainly don't speak for everyone.
market will fall apart. Ok, I could buy that. But at the same time, the ability to create bright white luster on
untoned coins will become a reality, but........the "white blazer" coin market will NOT fall apart. Uh huh!
And I agree with EVP too. If he slips his coins in paper flips or Rayond holders, etc. why is that considered enhancing but when earlier collectors did it, it was something else?
roadrunner
In the future, you should consider PM'ing me with your words of wisdom and show of intellect rather than exposing them to the entire forum.
Dragon
<< <i>Robert Cambell does in his video and Braddick said he has seen it done firsthand. I believe all 3 of them may know what they're talking about. >>
Look at the video. It tells a story of how opportunists can tone coins and sell them to make generous profits. I worked too long for Ananconda's non-ferrous metals manufactiring plants between 1972 - 1989 to see what can be done with 151 different alloys, including the coin stock we made for the mint each year in our Buffalo, NY plant. I spent countless days with research mettalurgists on processes designed to MINIMIZE or ELIMINATE discoloration of in-process metal being sent through gas-fired annealing furnaces prior to final rolling to gauge.
There are many, many ways to add oxidation to non-ferrous alloys when subjecting them to several manufacturing processes. The coin doctors are merely focusing on honing in on the chemicals, temperatures and atmospheres required to get the effects WE tried to eliminate in our manufacturing processes. Our customers wanted bright, clean metal. The mint was one of thousands of our customers.
My experience from another perspective.
Tony
BS Industrial Engineering, AS in Metallurgy
30 years experience in the manufacturing industry
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
Peak Numismatics
Monument, CO
Back in the early 1990's I put together a collection of toned Washington Carver commems grading MS65, all in NGC holders (with the exception of the 53-D, which was PCGS65 Shepherd, and I might add the least attractive of them all. No offense Larry, if you're reading this). These were incredibly toned color coins. I came to believe they were too good to be true. Even with NGC's blessing stamped on them. I think at least half if not more wore AT'd. I sold them all back then. The dealer I sold them to didn't care whether they might be AT or not. I hope somehow they are out of circulation, so to speak. I don't think anyone familiar with Carvers, or commemoratives in general would be fooled by them today. I had to learn the hard way not to assume that because it's slabbed by a major service it hasn't been altered. A little skepticism can be a healthy thing.
That said those that care about the hobby should not have a cavalier attitude regarding the subject of artificial enhancement of coins. It impacts both collectors and dealers economically by devaluing the coins that have by historical happenstance arrived in blast white or beautifully toned condition.
The argument that if you don't know the history of the coin from the time it left the mint you can't know whether the toning is ATed or not may be technically true (no I wasn't there over the last 167 years to see how my 1835 Eliasberg Quarter got its toning) but in practical terms (knowing the history of the coin over the last 50 or 60 years) having some insight, knowledge and experience in the industry as Dragon mentioned nullifies that aspect of the argument to some extent.
I'm hoping the grading services will find a way to catch up and stay one step ahead of the doctors. As for collectors, dealers and anyone else that cares about the long term health of the hobby we should call these coin doctor/con-artist by their rightful names; they are thieves and a blight on the hobby.
It may have “naturally” sat in a bag that was made of high sulfur content cloth, or been artificially exposed to a high sulfur content atmosphere over a much shorter period of time. Some would say if the coin accidentally fell between two loose boards of a floor in a chemical factory in 1880 in Amesbury, MA, then it obtained its tome naturally, but if it was put there on purpose, then it is artificial.
Metallurgy is not an exact science, (when I worked in the field we called it “witch’s brew”, because there was a lot of mixing of metals in the hope that the resultant alloy would “behave” according to theory. It doesn’t take extensive research facilities and the super technology to color metals – as Dog97 pointed out, its been going on for years – but the technology can help.
Anyway, you cannot tell for sure what the circumstances were that resulted in the various chemical reactions that resulted in toning – the atoms don’t care! I doubt if there is any real agreement on what “natural toning” really means. Those carbon spots, if they are caused by a human sneeze, are they unnatural, but if caused by the coin owners or the Mint’s mascot dog’s (no pun intended, Dog97) cough, then natural? The coin that falls to the floor of the chemical factory, is I more natural than the one placed in the accountant’s desk drawer and left there for 20 years? Perhaps 70 years ago some mint workers played around with some acids and other chemicals, and then shipped some coins out – is that action natural or unnatural? I don’t know.
Concerning the ethics of AT, if somebody intentionally toned a coin and tried to sell it, deliberately keeping its history secret, I personally would say that was unethical. But I would also say that someone insisting that the coin they are selling is natural, because they believe it is, but don’t know the history (so it is natural based on belief, and perhaps a dose of pride) is also being unethical. So for me – don’t lie (including to yourself), cheat or steal and you are probably being ethical.
Finally, who has the most to lose from professional ATing (I mean the real good stuff) if the practice becomes widely acknowledged and widespread? I suggest the following:
1. The professional coin doctors – they would kill their own market - they are not going to tell.
2. The collectors who have invested heavily in what they believe to be natural toning.
3. The professionals who claim to be able to distinguish all AT – they lose their status, and probably their financial interest.
Thank you for your attention.
Using your logic, you probably cannot even be sure that all the coins in your collection are not cleverly made counterfeits, can you? Unless you were at the mint at the time of the coins manufacture, watched the mint bag being loaded onto the truck, followed the truck to the Federal Reserve Bank, watched the bags being opened and the coins being rolled, and then purchased one of those rolls.....you cannot be ENTIRELY certain that you even own genuine US mint made coinage.
There are very clever people out there who are also probably very wealthy that could easily reproduce the various dies and correct planchets and strike exact reproductions with all of the various die diagnostics and all. Yes or no??
In actuality, your statements are 100% theory, conjecture and speculation and not based on any relevant specific examples, instances, or material facts.
Dragon
"Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest too Much."
I'd like to think that I have a fairly good idea of what I do and do not know. Counterfeiting is not an area where I have any particular knowledge; if you do, I'll accept your word on that.
<< <i> I worked too long for Ananconda's non-ferrous metals manufactiring plants between 1972 - 1989 to see what can be done with 151 different alloys, including the coin stock we made for the mint each year in our Buffalo, NY plant. I spent countless days with research mettalurgists on processes designed to MINIMIZE or ELIMINATE discoloration of in-process metal being sent through gas-fired annealing furnaces prior to final rolling to gauge. >>
I said this before. Wake up! Realize the facts. We were trying to keep 100 million pounds of metal from oxidizing in the manufacturing process. Naturally! So, the coin dr's can do what they want, and good, too.
Why don't you two guys stop the BS? I mean, metallurgists will tell you so. The Stuff oxidizes, damn*t!
One who made mint coin stock!
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
Here is reality:
1) Are there confirmed AT'd coins now in PCGS and NGC holders, 100% yes.
2) Are there cleaned, altered, and problem coins now in PCGS and NGC holders, 100% yes.
3) Does PCGS to this day occasionally let a problem or confirmed AT'd coin slip through the cracks, 100% yes.
4) Can the extremely talented coin docs occasionally get lucky and slip an AT'd coin past PCGS due to their haste in grading, 100% yes.
5) Can they also do this with consistent results and fool PCGS at will with their work, 100% no.
6) Are PCGS and NGC far more aware and sophisticated as to the various methods used by coin docs now as opposed to 5-10 yrs. ago, 100% yes.
7) Are the majority of AT'd coins done so to mask other problems as opposed to attempting to create value via the toning itself, most likely.
8) Can some of the incredibly vivid bag toned coins that have textile patterns and are toned in patterns that are known to be authentic be reproduced with ANY consistency by coin docs to fool the experts even 50% of the time, lets see some.
9) Is the market for beautifully toned coins going to fall apart anytime in the near future because of the talented coin docs, well see.
10) Are there light years of difference between being an expert in metallurgy and chemistry and physics and light refraction, and being an expert in numismatics and more specifically toned coins, 100% yes.
11) Can even the "best" work of the coin docs be spotted by an expert (not necessarily PCGS) using very strong magnification and experience, 100% yes IMO.
Dragon
FlyTooHigh,
Where is the BS? That is exactly what I've been saying, and received a ton of flaming replies for having said it.
If I say it, its BS, if you say it, its not?
I have read that the Omega Counterfeits (1926 $20 Gold) were so good that if the counterfeiter hadn't put his mark, a small Greek letter omega hidden on the coin, it probably never would have been discovered - but I don't have the references right in front of me to confirm this. Anybody out there know more about it?
This is from an article on British Sovereign Counterfeits of Rare Years at: http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html
Excellent Fakes
In the 1970's, forgeries of a number of rare and very rare, valuable coins were produced. These were apparently made in the Lebanon by a Mr. Chaloub, and inspired or financed by an American called Harry Stock. the workmanship of this series of fakes was excellent. They were so good that a large number of highly priced coins found their way onto the market, having been bought by experienced dealers, and handled by famous auction houses.
Some of the sovereign dates which appear in high quality fakes include 1822, 1827, 1832, 1887, 1916-C (Ottawa Mint, Canada), and 1917. These are all London mint coins (no mintmark), except where specified. Most of these dates are scarce or rare. The 1917 London, for example, catalogues at £2750 in EF condition, and the 1916-C at £7000.
Pushkin
It's true that I can't know with "absolute certainty" what might have been done to my Eliasberg Quarter. That said I can have a "high level of certainty" based on what I do know about the history of the coin, the technology available for ATing coins during the period in question and my own knowledgable eyes (as well as the eyes at PCGS) that the coin has not been doctored.
Now someone might want to play Johnny Cochran (DNA is only 99.9999999% accurate) but in the real world most decisions are based on reasonable doubt or reasonable assurance. That sense of doubt or assurance is based on the knowledge and experienced gain over the years (in the case of some on the board many years and tens of thousands of coins) which serves to offer a fairly high level of protection and certainty (although granted it's not 100%) against the thieves and con-artist that call themselves coin "doctors".
What I don't like hearing is that since we can't know with "absolute certainty" then we should just throw open the flood gates and allow this stuff to go on unchallenged. I also don't like hearing that if it's attractive then whether it's ATed or not shouldn't matter. It matters in a general way because it cast more uncertainty into a market that's got enough image problems. It also conveys the attitude that if you can get away with it it's o.k.
Doctoring coins is not a victimless crime. Some might scoff at the use of the term crime but it's the right word used in the correct context. Doctoring devalues the coins that have obtained attractive natural toning (natural meaning nothing intentional was done to enhance their appearance) and if we passively accept it it serves to debases the image of the hobby in general. Some might also scoff at the idea of originality and that since no coin minted 100+ years ago if it has naturally toned is really original. The use this as justification to proceed with whatever type of alterations they like. I don't accept that notion. Aging/toning was part of the natural process given the conditions that existed during most of the history of U.S. coinage (a few exceptions but for the most part this is true). The toning these coins obtained has become part of the history of the coin and is a testament to the coins originality. I, like many others in the hobby, value this originality. If someone wants to AT coins and sell them as pretty pieces of art let them do it above board (labeling their artwork as artifical enhancement) and let the market decide the worth of these coins based on having that knowledge.
Pmh1nic,
I agree with most of what you say concerning the ethics and honesty of dealing in coins. I think it is wrong to deceive any buyer, period!
I don't for one minute accept the Johnny Cochran DNA anology - beware of false anologies.
I don't accept the Johnny Cochran analogy either, meaning that there comes a point at which each person decides where reasonable doubt or reasonable certain weights heavily enough in one direction or the other that you make lifes decisions and live with the consequences.
Pointing out that you can't be sure about the nature of toning (how it happened) unless you followed the coin from the Mint to the present day is in an absolute sense (100% certainty) true but is analogues to letting O.J. go because DNA isn't 100%, not just because of the very, very small possibility that someone could have matching DNA but because of the circumstance surrounding the collection and analysis of the material used to make the DNA match. But DNA coupled with all of the other evidence (physical and circumstantial) made for a very good case that O.J. should be in jail.
The technical as well as the circumstantial evidence also makes it possible in the vast majority of situations to make a determination regarding the nature of toning with a high degree of certainty. Whether the good guys can come up with methods to detect the best the doctors can produce remains to be seen. What I don't want to see is a change in the general attitude among collectors that ATed or historical happenstance doesn't matter. That attitute total ignors the negative impact this practices has on collectors, dealers and the hobby in general.
Earlier in this this thread you made the following statement:
<< <i>Interesting discussion on all sides. I'm not a chemist or metallurgiest so I've got no clue what is possible today given the right knowledge and equipment. >>
Yet when the basics of toning technology are presented, you choose to completely deny what experts have said about the technology.
Several members of this thread have mentioned instances of AT good enough to fool them or the services.
Scott Travers, in his book How to Make Money in Coins Right Now on page 46 states
<< <i>'Coin doctors" engage in very sophisticated methods of coin alteration and restoration, and many times these have fooled grading services >>
.
So, I really have difficulty with the circumstancial evidence argument. It seems to me that some who post to this thread are relying more on dogma and an "I'm right becuase I'm right" argument, rather than on evidence, including; technology, research, the experience of other collectors, and the experience of other experts.
Regards,
Pushkin
these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty. in the end it seems they tend to end with the two sides of the debate struggling for the final word. they are if nothing else, amusing.
self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile.
al h.
I think you're right. I should have shut up long ago.
I concede the last word to anyone who wants it - I'm going to go pet the cat.
"Yet when the basics of toning technology are presented, you choose to completely deny what experts have said about the technology."
On the contrary if you've read my posts I've taken as a given your assertion that the technology does exist that allows the best of the doctors to AT coins that the grading services have trouble identifying as ATed. I've worked in the electronics industry for over twenty-five years. I've seen what amounts to incredible developments in digital technology during that time. I just about never use the word "impossible".
I also know that we've got some very talent good guys on our side (I have a friend who is a Phd chemist, 50+ years in the hobby and has handled tens of millions of dollars of rare coins during his career) working hard at identifying whatever signs the doctor may be leaving behind (you two guys could probably have some very interesting conversations
As far as circumstantial evidence is concerned it can play a part in help to identify what coins might be ATed or natural. I would suppose that the methods for ATing coins have changed/improved over the last 5, 10, 15 years, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but I would also guess that the most sophisticated methods, those most difficult to detect, are those that have been developed most recently. If a particular coin was in an old time collection (of course a collector that would distain doctoring a coin
My bottom line in all of this, the one thing I am sure of is that those that care about the hobby should not condone in any matter the undisclosed ATing of coins. If people know the coin has been doctored and don't mine that's their business. The best methods at ATing coins may make it very difficult to identify coins that have been doctored but it doesn't change the fact that doing it without disclosing it is criminal fraud that hurts the hobby and industry.
<< <i>ureas (urinals are great for toning) >>
Have to comment on Pushkin's statement quoted above: urea is a synthetic compound used for many purposes. Most commonly, as a base for common fertilizer. It's made in a chemical plant using natural gas as a feedstock. Usually, it is pelletized (made into small size pellets) and sold in 50 - 500 pound bags or bales. When used as a base for fertilizer, the pellets are made water soluable (an additive is added to the urea) and the pellet is then coated with ammonia, manganese, phosphorous and other nutrients used by plants. Another common use is for kitchen counter top mateials (heated and formed by injection molding.) Etc, etc.
The reference to urinals confuses me? Do you mean an atmosphere of "urine" can tone a coin? Seems possible, as urine contains ammonia (NH3, NH4), a nitrogen compound that is "reactive" to certain metals. Never thought of hanging a Morgan by a string in a urinal to subject it to urine vapors! May just work fine given some time!
Just commenting on an earlier post.
DISCLAIMER: 1.) not trying to be sarcastic, arrogant, aloof, a smart a**; 2.) Nor am I intending to insult anyone's intellegence. 3.) Please forgive me if this post offends anyone I have not covered in 1. & 2. 4.) This post also is not meant to be driscrimintary to race, creed, color, ethnic background, sexual affiliation or other group of beings not identified here, including aliens living on Earth or from some other planet.
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
The "urine patinas" are usually applied to counterfeits that are sold to tourists. You are certainly welcome to hang up some Morgans in the Men's Room at the bus station and see what happens - OK, they will be stolen first.
7) Are the majority of AT'd coins done so to mask other problems as opposed to attempting to create value via the toning itself, most likely.
I say YES in the case of raw coins but slabbed AT coins are for the tone prem; problem coins can be sent to ACG, ANACS, SEGS etc cheap but sell for decent prices if they are key coins.
9) Is the market for beautifully toned coins going to fall apart anytime in the near future because of the talented coin docs, well see.
A big NO.
10) Are there light years of difference between being an expert in metallurgy and chemistry and physics and light refraction, and being an expert in numismatics and more specifically toned coins, 100% yes.
Not light years but some difference.
11) Can even the "best" work of the coin docs be spotted by an expert (not necessarily PCGS) using very strong magnification and experience, 100% yes IMO.
I don't think a coin Dr can make coins like Art posts from a brilliant BU model but I think he can take an already toned coin and improve on it and nobody can tell.
I find this area of toning coins facinating as it is not something you would try to have happen (to metals) in industry where I have spent three decades. I might put a few coins in some well chosen places at work this week to see what might happen.
Tony
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
Hi
FlyTooHigh
Actually, cat urine is great for adding a fast patina to coppers. Human urine after a large tomato-based pasta dinner works well too.
I've been thinking of writing a research paper on the subjet for submission to Trans Amer Soc Metals for peer review and publication, but you know how difficult it is to find extra time.
Also, the JAX line of artificial patinas work very well - the sculpters use them all the time - I don't know what is in them.
Where can find information on the JAX line of artifical patina you mentioned?
Tony
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
Tony,
Here's a start. Atrifical Patinas
al h.
Proud of America!
I Have NO PCGS Registry Sets!
"self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile."
That statement is a smoke screen and diversion.
Fact 1 - In the vast majority of case we can know with a very high level of certainty whether a coin has been doctored.
Fact 2 - ATing coins and selling them without telling the buyer that the coin has been ATed is fraud and hurts the hobby and coin industry.
"it's never speculated whether any of the percieved naturally toned coins were at one time dipped white and then retoned. would we then have a naturally AT'd/dipped coin?"
Another diversion that has zero bearing on the main point of this discussion, the ethics of ATing coins. Are there coins that have been dipped in the past and naturally toned afterwards. Absolutely. How that connects with what I think the general attitute of those involved in the hobby should be towards the fraud perpetrated by coin doctors escapes me.
"these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty"
Speculative knowledge...Pushkin is a chemist, we've had some feedback from a person with vast experience in metallurgy, you've got a few collectors that have chimed in who have examine tens of thousands of coins including thousands of toned coins. I've had numerous discussions with a number of chemist with educational levels up to Phd. Where is the speculative knowledge, unless you call Pushkin's definitive statement "I have no doubt that there are people with the skill and resources necessary to fool anybody" since he of course does not know everybody
Pushkin
"I would suggest some of us stop worrying about "AT" or "natural". If there is beauty there, enjoy it - because again, "if you don't know the history, you don't know the coin".
I can't disagree with you more. You may view your statement as a reflection of a realistic attitude but it's an attitude that I don't subscribe to. First, because doctoring coins and not identifying the alteration is (and I'll keep repeating it as long as I can keeping finding the keys on the keyboard) wrong and is a blight on the hobby which collectors in general (no matter how good the doctors get at it and how difficult it may be to identify) should frowned on. Second, even though I take your statements at face value regarding your expertise in the field of chemist/metallurgy one thing I am sure of is you don't know it all. You might think that's a weak foundation to build my hopes on but based on my conversations with another Phd chemist (granted he doesn't know it all either
O.K. enought of the heady technical stuff that the average collector (including myself) probably can't fully absorb. What each of us can do as collectors is express our disdain for any type of intentional alteration of a coin in an attempt to commit fraud. The isn't a matter of personal taste. If you like color on your coins regardless of how the coin obtain the color that's fine but doctoring should be identified so that those that what to make that choice can. The reason the doctors don't identify there work is obvious, most collectors do not condone this practice and would not pay a premium for coins that have been munipulated in this way.
"self righteous indignation over what can't be proven or known with any degree of certainty is futile."
that statement was intended towards predictions of how AT will effect the hobby in the future---opinion.
"it's never speculated whether any of the percieved naturally toned coins were at one time dipped white and then retoned. would we then have a naturally AT'd/dipped coin?"
that statement is directed at pretentious knowledge of the history of a coin which is a responded to part of the topic begun early in the thread with a post by pushkin.
"these threads where everyone throws out speculative knowledge under the guise of expertise always end up being lenghty"
speculation relates to "guessing" and much of the discussion centers on points which can't be proven yet the majority is expressed as gospel. thank you for defending pushkin. my remarks were intended least of all towards him and more towards those involved in the discussion who's inference is one of superior understanding on the subject of AT identification. as to lengthy threads, do a little history check.
no smoke screens or diversions. i shoot straight from the hip, believe me. possible defensive reaction on your part. you seem to be closely tied to the AT issue past your expressed wish to save the hobby from fraud and to enlighten us all as to your understanding of the issue. very confusing. rest assured though, my speculation is that we will all come through it OK!!
al h.
" Here lies (insert name here) who’s only accomplishment in life was to totally screw up the hobby he professed to love so much because he was one stupid greedy BA$TARD"
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
al h.
Yes I do. I am just spreading my gospel
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
"that statement was intended towards predictions of how AT will effect the hobby in the future---opinion."
We've gone over the whole idea of what can be known with absolute certain. Putting that chasing of the tail argument behind us we're left with informed opinion as to the affect Ated coins have on the market place. I don't need to guess at some of what will happen because we've seen some of the results. It also doesn't take a lot of guess work or imagination to know that injecting more uncertainty into a market for coins that already require some expertise to indentify whether they have or have not been doctor does to the market. I don't see what you describe as "self-righteous indignation" anywhere in the discussion and especially not with respect to informed predictions on how coin doctoring affects the market.
"that statement is directed at pretentious knowledge of the history of a coin which is a responded to part of the topic begun early in the thread with a post by pushkin."
The surface of a coin DO tell a story and give some indication of the history of the coin. Prior cleaning, retoning and other changes can be identified though close examination. Can I know everything about a coins history unless I've owned it from the time it left the coining press? Of course not but a lot can be learn about the history of a coin via a thorough examination of the coin, especially when it relates to intentional alterations of the surfaces.
"speculation relates to "guessing" and much of the discussion centers on points which can't be proven yet the majority is expressed as gospel"
Be specific. What exact was being guessed at. In the vast majority of cases coins that have been artifically toned can be identified. I don't think anyone, Pushkin included, refutes that. I've never argued that the very best tone doctors haven't fooled the grading services. What is debatable is whether the doctors have come up with a process that is "impossible" to detect. I ultimately differ that argument to those who are a lot smarter and have a lot more experience than I do to debate.
"my remarks were intended least of all towards him and more towards those involved in the discussion who's inference is one of superior understanding on the subject of AT identification"
Why is it "inference" of superior understand? Is it a problem to find out that someone just might have a superior knowledge regarding a particular subject? Don't you think there just might be some collectors on this forum who have been involved in numismatic study for 20 or 30 or 40 years or more just might have a superior knowledge over you and me?
"no smoke screens or diversions. i shoot straight from the hip, believe me. possible defensive reaction"
No defensive reaction on my part; you shot from the hip and missed the target. This issue isn't "righteous indignation" or "inference ... of superior understanding" or "speculation" and "guessing".
Fraudalent acts (read that as doctored coins and not disclosing the alterations) hurts the hobby. It's something those that care about the health of the hobby should frown on because of its negative affects. Most coins that have been Ated can be, through a thorough examination, be identified as such. Condoning the doctoring just because there have been improvements in the product they produce rewards their dishonesty and discounts the harm they do to the hobby in general.
another board member has remarked that "we need an emoticon to represent the sound of a whoosh as a hand swings rapidly over your head" and at this point i'd have to agree. all those things are what these types of threads end up centering on. the irony in where the discussion ends up----with proof wanted from your side of the arguement-----is by the very nature of the beast exactly what you're not going to get. that would be rather self defeating, somewhat like the omega counterfeiter who was caught in part because his ego prompted him to "sign" his work. and just by the thread origin paragraph, it seems clear to the minimally observant that AT has already been perfected to a high degree. it's not a stretch to assume that many coins deemed authentic are in fact AT.
go reread some of your posting on this and other threads concerning the AT issue with an open mind and tell me that none of the above highlighted terms aren't accurate. you may also want to study my 10 and expanded to 12 reasons why it's fun to collect AT'd coins!!
al h.
Only if you allow them to.
I try not read into a post emotion that probably isn't there. I have no righteous indignation only a concern for the hobby that I really care about that in my "informed" opinion has been/is being damaged by the type of doctoring we've been discussing. I also try to stick to the facts and fortunately we've got experts on the board that can tell you very precisely what causes toning. But even those experts can't tell you with absolute 100% certainty that the work of a doctor is undetectable. The best they can give is the well informed opinion. The same is true regarding knowing absolutely 100% regarding the nature of toning on a coin unless of course you've owned the coin since the time it was minted. Somewhere short of absolute certainty we have these discussion and hopefully out of them learn a little more and gain some additional insight on the subject.
"with proof wanted from your side of the arguement-----is by the very nature of the beast exactly what you're not going to get. that would be rather self defeating, somewhat like the omega counterfeiter who was caught in part because his ego prompted him to "sign" his work. and just by the thread origin paragraph, it seems clear to the minimally observant that AT has already been perfected to a high degree. it's not a stretch to assume that many coins deemed authentic are in fact AT."
If claims are made is it wrong to ask for physical proof to back up those claim if it's possible to provide it? I wouldn't expect the doctors to provide the proof and probably whatever signs of doctoring the grading services have uncovered are not going to be shared with the general collecting population.
As far as I know no one has said that the grading services haven't been fooled in the past. The fact that they have is one of the reasons some legit coins don't get slabbed with the owners suffering the consequences. The services need to do a better job of keeping up with the doctors. But the fact that there have been some failures should not in my opinion be cause to raise up our collective hands and say the battles over and ATing coins and selling them without disclosing the alterations is o.k.
I'm pretty good at spotting the cruder forms of AT but I'm no expert. Some admire the work of the doctors and maybe on one level you can admire their knowledge and expertise. Having said that I don't applaud, condone or cheer for their success because the bottom line is what they do damages the hobby and industry. If I've driven anything home I hope it's that fact.
"we need an emoticon to represent the sound of a whoosh as a hand swings rapidly over your head"
I haven't figured that on out.
"then climb out if the squirrel cage like i have"
I live in the house, the squirrels are in the attic
Well, Pmh 1nic
We agree on one thing - the craftiness and futility of trying to control squirrel behavior.
I said I'd shut up on AT, but I won't commit to being quiet about the incredible craftiness of squirrels.
So anyway, so why can't I use an empty mint sack to put some of my coins in it and control the temperature & humidity and make some new "original" bag toners. Couldn't I can make crescent rainbows, monochromes, wild beautiful monsters like sneaky snake sells and those "rare" textile toned ones? Oh yeah, because it's a high tech complicated thing and you have to be a metalurlogist or a rocket scientist to understand it.
The frequency with which those rockets having been going up and then coming right back down and crashing - well you'll never get me in one. Rather take my chances stuck in a cloth bag with a bunch of Morgans and my cat!
Just don't do it with 2002 SAE's. The circumstantial evidence points to ATed
.......While on the subject of originality, I wish to point out there are very few 100% original Bust Halves, or other early Silver coins for that matter. Collectors regularly call me looking for a brilliant, original AU Bust Half for their Type set! Such a coin does not exist! Even those that are toned were likely dipped at one time or another and toned back naturally. Fortunately, coins were not hurt by dipping most of the time. Original, circulated coins are usually fairly dark gray or brownish gray. Mint state coins can have just a light, silvery gray patina to them, but more often they are more deeply toned shades of gray as well, sometimes with some color mixed in. Colorful toning around the periphery occurs from being in an old album where the cardboard had substantial sulfer in it. Usually these coins were cleaned or dipped(as was the custom of the day)before being put in the album. Nevertheless, these coins, often with stunning colors, are highly sought after even if they are not strictly original.......
i'll stick with my earlier statements about speculative knowledge, pretense and self righteous indignation when dearly held beliefs are called into question. this paragraph speaks volumes about the lack of original surfaces on the overwhelming majority of coins. whether natural toning or AT, none of us can say for sure without having been there, much as pushkin stated on , what, page 1 or 2 of this thread?!?!?!? i guess for some it's a bitter pill to swallow, but remember, the truth will set you free and sometimes that's after it hurts like hell!!
al h.
First, let's lose the "self-righteous indignation" and "bitter pill to swallow" and "truth will set you free and sometimes that's after it hurts like hell!!" Those comments add zero to the discussion and interject "your perception" of someone elses emotion attitude regarding this discussion that probably (and in my case definitely) don't exist.
I really don't have much dispute with the comments made by the author of the paragraph you quoted. With reference to Bust Halfs in particular I would totally agree that it would be a very unusual circumstance to find one of these coins in blast white condition that has not been dipped. Actually he says that an original blast white coin "does not exist" but I hesitate to speak in absolute terms since I (and probably he) hasn't examined every Bust Half (that 100% absolute certainty issue). He retreats from that type of dogmatic stance went it comes to his discussion of toned coins choosing to use the terms "likely" and "ususally".
The point still remains whether we can 100% identify a coin as being naturally toned or blast white or if that level of certainty is only 90% or 80% etc. doesn't IMHO legitimize the intentional doctoring of coins to commit fraud on collectors and dealers.
Now you can stick with your opinion regarding "speculative knowledge, pretense and self righteous indignation when dearly held beliefs are called into question" in the face of the facts and well informed opinion based on those facts and numerous years of experience expressed in this tread. You can call into question my motivation and emotional state (two things you know nothing about and which have no bearing on the facts and informed opinion I've expressed) but it doesn't help in making your case.
how difficult is it for you, Paul, to say those difficult words "i don't know for sure." because you don't know for sure if the icon you use is original or not, and so it goes. as for your informed opinion, perhaps i can share a little of what my stubbornness has taught me. i ALWAYS think i'm correct, but i ALWAYS hold tightly to the idea that i may be wrong----that's a concept known as being openminded.
al h.
Why the emotional outburst? "scoffed at comment", "self-proclaimed expert", "those difficult words", "share a little of what my stubbornness has taught me"
First, I didn't scoff at any of your comments. You're reading into my comments emotion that's not there.
Second, I never said I was an expert at anything although some on the members on this board do have considerable expertise and I've read quite a bit of expert research and opinion (I've got more numismatic books than I have coins).
Third, I've been married for 28 years, I'm am well practiced in using the words "I'm sorry", "I'm wrong" and "I don't know".
Now to the issue at hand:
Evidence of prior cleaning (whether chemical or mechanic) in many cases can be detected even through the retoning. As far as chemical cleaning is concerned given high enough magnification the changes that take place in the microscoping flow lines during chemical cleaning are visible. Retoning may cover up some of the evidence of earlier cleaning but in many cases the signs can be found during close examination.
Here's a quote for the PCGS grading guide:
"Once the original surface is removed from a coin by some type of commercial dip or cleaning, toning will no longer "adhere" in the same way it does with orignal coins."
Do you consider the graders and authenticators at PCGS experts or self-proclaimed experts?
Again, we can debate what level of certainty you can have regarding a coins "originality" and have a difference of opinion. Whether we can identify with 100% or 90% or 80% certainty which coins have been doctored doesn't change the truth regarding my initial premise, the intentional doctoring of coins in order to commit fraud hurts the hobby. And not being able to identify the doctoring 100% of the time doesn't IMHO mean that we should open the flood gates to this practice and condone it. I also am of the well informed opinion that you can with a high level of certain based on technical and circumstantial evidence determine whether a coin has/hasn't been doctored.