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A real live coin doctor at the NY ANA show!
Tonekiller
Posts: 1,308 ✭✭
While going around buying coins and meeting folks at the ANA show, I came across a table with 50+coins with nice toning for sale. A bunch of post 1938 stuff and many gorgeous moderns. While standing in line to get prices along with several collectors, this dealer and two others (that I have seen many times) talked out in the open about buying this blast white coin and AT’ing it. They talked about the cost of the coin divide 3 ways and what the “doctor” was going to charge on top of that. Needless to say the two collectors walked off, as did myself.
His coins were good, and many had been slabbed. Maybe its naiveté but I was honestly shocked and it takes a lot to shock me at coin shows. All I can say, as a dealer is it’s a shame to have heard and seen this take place.
Bryan
His coins were good, and many had been slabbed. Maybe its naiveté but I was honestly shocked and it takes a lot to shock me at coin shows. All I can say, as a dealer is it’s a shame to have heard and seen this take place.
Bryan
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I'm not surprised. This is why PCGS is body-bagging so many toned coins.
Also, with copper, the people in the know tell me that the coin will look fine for a month or two, and then it'll start looking funky.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>All I can say, as a dealer is it’s a shame to have heard and seen this take place. >>
It is a shame, but I am suprised you haven't heard it before now.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>His coins were good, and many had been slabbed. >>
And yet I get a naturally toned '64 JFK body-bagged.
Russ, NCNE
Yes, I would find that deeply disturbing too. To hear it spoken about so openly, right in front of collectors at their table, seems almost kind of surreal to me.
Welcome back from NY.
I heard a couple of dealers comparing AT techniques at the TNA in May. They were pretty close to the Lincoln Set that was on display in the corner, if I remember right. The methods they were using were more household approaches. When I passed by, they were discussing the merits of placing coins under hot water heaters and radiators. The material they had in their case, though, was mostly untoned or lightly toned stuff.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Maybe next year the coin DR will start toning High Grade Moderns so you guys can have something new to argue about. Hahahahaha
The money today is in the coins the collectors want. Pure and simple. Nothing will change other than the refining of color and the creation of better methods.
That is the challenge and I'm not alone.
Your first name please or PM me your name and I will answer your question.
>>nucklehead,
I do not care to have anybody lynched just b/c I disagree with their “hobby” . I distain the practice as it hurts legitimate tone coin dealers.
It also solidify's my position to never start.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>What methods were they discussing? I have heard the same thing generally of buying prooflike MS65 common date morgans and toning them and submitting to the services. >>
He never said but his case was full of SEGS blue/purple (not the mint set colors) moderns.......I did talk to Mike over at the ANACS booth about it and he stated all three top services were on to him now and his signature job. That’s good to hear.
BTW, I have actually practiced various A/T methods on silvers as an educational exercise. My reasoning is that it's easier to spot A/T if I actually can do A/T. For better or for worse, I'm not very good at doing A/T. (I am, however, pretty good at spotting A/T for the series in which I specialize.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
When you sell these coins will you be telling the potential buyers that you artificially enhanced them?
CoinDR
Do you understand or care about the disservice you do to the hobby in general and the affect on the market value of individual collections because of your efforts at doctor coins? Of course this is a rhetorical question.
>>nucklehead,
I do not care to have anybody lynched just b/c I disagree with their "hobby" . I distain the practice as it hurts legitimate tone coin dealers.
Whoa hoss, I said lets "expose" him, not lynch him. That's a little drastic.I just hope it's an east coast dealer that I don't have much dealings with anyway.
He is on the East Coast.
TBT
The coins I use to practice doing A/T are junk coins worth slightly more than their bullion value. I suppose they can be for sale some day, but I suspect no one will give a hoot about 'em.
As for the ones I let tone slowly over time, I wouldn't consider that A/T. I don't know if others would either, but I think this method is no different than the toning method of the Evergreen and Benson coins. Anyway, I haven't sold any of these because they're not for sale. (Actually, I do occasionally trade coins with my friends. In those cases, they know the history of my coins pretty much as completely as I do.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I mentioned this before in another thread, but here goes.
Unless you know the history of the coin there is no way that you can definitely know for sure that a coin is or is not AT (excluding some extremely sophisticated and costly analysis techniques that the services do not possess). Toning is a combination of metallurgy and chemisty. All natural toning can be reproduced if the "coin doctor" has the resources and knowledge. I was a principal investigator at a leading metallurgical research laboratory for a number of years, and I have no doubt that there are people with the skill and resources necessary to fool anybody.
My guess is that the real pros at the AT game concentrate on a few high quality techniques and coin types that maximizes their profits. The kitchen doctors and amateurs produce a lot of junk that can be detected, or that will change over time, but don't fool yourself, the real pros can ALWAYS fool you.
AT determination comes down to do you know the full history of the coin, because if you don't, you can't be sure if it is AT or not.
I believe you 100%. Some AT is easier to detect than others. You say that you worked in a metallurgical research laboratory for a number of years. I'm a Mechanical Engineer by education and would love a dissertation on what EXACTLY is toning. If toning is the addition of oxygen atoms to the silver, could you not have a process to remove that extra oxygen?
Tom
I believe you are 100% incorrect. In fact, the only accurate word in your last post was "guess".
Dragon
ha ha i have to agree with the masses on tonning,you can in almost every coin tell if its AT or not.
oh this is just my honest opinion and that of many many others.
An open mind will support transformation.
Recognize life is full of change
and celebrate the opportunity.
"There is always a way to collect,Never surrender the hobby"
am
Just adding oxygen will give you nice, black silver. Its really the sulphur, and to a lesser extent, a little chlorine and other elements that, as well as oxygen give the colors. The real trick is to cut down on the reaction times to imitate "natural reactions", althought I don't believe natural reactions are anymore natural than human induced. (Just like those who believe natural vitamin E is better for you than synthetic, if its the same chemically, its the same - "natural" vitamins usually just contain some other compounds that the synthetic stuff doesn't, add the other compunds and its the same).
Also, how the chemicals are applied to the surface, which will change the reflectivity of light across the surface, and absorption of light by the surface, will contribute to the toning process.
I'm also sure that there are a few (very few) professionals out there who can restore natural mint luster to coins. These guys are a select group that can fool the graders, and they are very skilled and sophisticated, and probably rich.
The bottom line is the chemical reactions are the same. If natural is accidentally storing a coin in an old book with a high sulphur content paper, or in an old mint bag with sulphur compounds in the cloth, or dropping a coin between old wood flooring in an office building next to a chemical plant; and AT is inducing the same chemical reaction by cooking the coin in a turnip filled with spinach for 8 hours (I don't recommend this method), then so be it.
I would suggest some of us stop worrying about "AT" or "natural". If there is beauty there, enjoy it - because again, "if you don't know the history, you don't know the coin".
Are you an expert on toned coins with many, many years experience or an investigator in a research lab, there's a MONUMENTAL difference between the two, and you are making random statements that are quite simply incorrect.
You state that you are "sure" that there are a select group of very skilled and sophisticated individuals out there that can restore the natural mint lustre to coins without detection, and able to fool the grading services, and that they are also probably rich.
How many pieces have you ever seen that were once washed out grey, dull MS coins that are now in PCGS holders with full blazing white mint brilliance????? EXACTLY!.....NONE....you're just making random, baseless, incorrect remarks not based on fact but rather conjecture and wild speculation.
Dragon
Maybe some of your should take the time to actually read my post. I thought I made it clear that the pros are few, but they are also good. MOST of what you call AT is crap - my cat could tell the difference (yes, cat urine also works for some AT).
But if you think you can discover the work of a pro - well human self-deception is boundless. Yes, I know, we all want to believe that ours is natural and "theirs" is AT.
Well guys, educate yourselves - you'd be surprised at what you might learn
Hi Dragon,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. That said, my mother told me when I was very young "If you don't know what you are talking about, its best to keep your mouth shut". I have tried to listen to my mother. My post was not based on armchair Ivory tower book reading, but by actually working with metals and chemicals, and 50 years of collecting experience.
However, I have no desire to try and change anyones belief system - if people want to believe in the tooth fairy, so be it. I posted a message based on experience and knowledge - not chants and incantations over a Ouija board, or more importantly, not what I want to believe..
Respectfully,
Pushkin
I have taken the time to educate myself regarding coins, for the last 29 yrs. in fact, and viewing literally 100s of thousands of coins. That is how I know your previous statements are conjecture and speculation rather than fact and concrete examples.
Your prevoius comments may 'look good' and 'seem plausible' to others, but not to me, sorry.
Dragon
This coin originally had its original skin, having never been dipped (apparently this is key) and although it was placed into a PCGS 64 holder (no point up in grade) it was now valued at 10X's its original cost of $35.00.
And, even though I DID know the story of this coin I was almost drawn to buy it because it was so attractive.
I stopped collecting Toned Coins for awhile after these two experiences but then realized, if I like the coin buy it. I just now am sure to adjust my pricing schedule.
Dragon- I know what you mean about blast white coins and how luster really can't be restored (although apprarently that is the next big wave? It was mentioned to me then that those "Teeth Whitener" machines were being somehow incorporated in the process), AT has come a long way. I'm a happier collector for having given up the notion that I can spot an AT coin anywhere at anytime. I know now that is not true.
peacockcoins
So Dragon,
You knew the histories of all those coins, right?
You studied and experimented with chemistry and metallurgy, right?
You believe that chemical reactions don't apply to coins, right?
You say that what I posted is just speculation, and what you say is fact (based, of course on your superior knowledge), right?
OK, Then please explain why metal that is formed into a coin suddenly has "special chemical properties" the it didn't have before? This is important - Really!
By the way, did those 100s of thousands of coins sign little certificates that certified "I'm AT" or "I'm not AT" ?
Thank you for your attention.
One last statement. I should not have said "I am sure" about the restoration of natural luster. I have good secondary and circumstantial evidence that a few individuals can fool the services, but no first hand knowledge that would hold up as legal proof.
I apologize for the wording of that comment.
The more collectors chase after these coins and faster and harder we work in providing them.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
You sound rather frustrated that everyone here doesn't just accept your statements as 100% fact and truth without refutation.
I never said I possessed superior knowledge or any such thing, nor did I state that I am a Ph.D in chemistry or metallurgy, nor did I say that I know the history of every coin I've ever seen or anything even remotely like that........what I did say was that you are making statements without concrete facts and/or specific examples to back up your statements. 'Good secondary' or 'circumstantial' knowledge is just that.......
If you want to lend credibility to your previous statements, give specific examples of coins in PCGS that you have FIRSTHAND knowledge of, or show pics of coins that were AT'd by these so-called master coin doctors.
Dragon
First, I don't expect anybody to accept that what I stated as 100% fact, nor do I believe that I know "everything". Quite the contrary, as I get older the more I realize just how little I know.
Do you really think that I could get somebody to give me their coin in a PCGS slab and that I could prove it was or wasn't "AT" without the history? That would be contrary to what I said.
Please don't try to diagnose my mental or physical state - its a suble form of name calling (rather you just called me a name).
I've had enough experience with coins, and enough education and experience with metallurgy, that I have no doubt that some of the best "natural coins" out there are AT, yes, i've seen them - but so what? If you like the coin, if you find it beautiful, why concern yourself?
As for proof, your argument and mine are on equal footing, neither of us can prove anything without the coins full history. Do you really believe that a professional coin doctor is going to agree to your public disclosure test?
What I do know (for good or bad) is the "better coins (a few) through chemistry" is a reality.
Unfortuantely coin ATing isn't like art restoration, there aren't many professionals out there showing off their skills to the public.
I have no doubt that the skilled professional (like you) can detect most AT (most of it is of rather low quality and doesn't 'look' natural anyway).
My point was that the real pros will fool you, and that without the coin's history you are only speculating. As for the majority of ATers, they're amateurs.
Have a great day! (Yes, I'm frustrated right now because I'd rather be petting my cat and chewing on a peach/raspberry ice cream cone).
Camelot
I wish I had Bear's wisdom. That would really be something!
It is rather aggrevating when individuals make absurd statements that they have no firsthand knowledge of, or facts, or specific examples to back up anything they say. The burden of proof is on THEM, not the person that tells them they are full of BS. Anyone can say anything and then tell you they have 'no doubt' or are 'sure' or whatever they want........yet anytime someone is called on what they say or claim regarding this issue, they either tell you that you're naive, you believe in the tooth fairy, or that if you like it you should just buy it, or some other absurd, baseless comment.
The same is true when the so-called highly talented coin docs are called on their endless BS and claims, it's all just talk until someone shows undisputable examples and actual facts of dull, washed out coins that have had their lustre restored to blazing mint brilliance without detection by experts, or until someone shows you a previously untoned coin that now has incredibly vivid mint bag colors and a textile pattern that is now in a PCGS holder and sold for many multiples of bid as a result.
Dragon
Camelot
Camelot
Yes, you would think that would be the case, however, beautifully toned pieces are now selling at premiums that are higher than anytime in the past.....hmmmmmm.
I have also been listening to people say for at LEAST the last 15 years how the market for monster toned coins will fall apart because of this and various other reasons, and we'll probably be hearing that for the next 15 years also.
Dragon
Calgold makes an excellent point.
My (opinion) is that this will take some time. There are very few real pros, and I don't believe they want this to happen, but the knowledge is out there, and it will eventually be disseminated. If this occurs, it will also put the docs out of business.
However, its possible that new works of art will be created - but will collectors buy beautiful (known to be ATed) coins?
Camelot
They can't be too good (killer iridescent rainbows all the time) or else the services will catch on, and they have in the past. But if the doctors create nice, but not too nice, toning, there's still a good profit to be made.
Now, recreating luster, who knows. But I have no doubt that technology is being given a workout even as we type.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I have yet to see any coin doc who can remove carbon spots from Unc. type copper or silver without evidence of the coin's being doctored. The area that had the carbon spots appears discolored afterwards and is noticeable to a discerning viewer.
You don't even need a glass to notice this most of the time. Yes, I've seen some of these coins are in PCGS & NGC holders. I avoid them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."