1. Pick a series or a couple of series and study them, live them, learn them and in 10-20 years you will be able to understand them, - truly understand them, as Gregg understand his Morgans and Commems and TDN understands his Tradedollars.
2. Follow the bouncing ball - learn who owned the key coins in your chosen series, what happened to them, where they sold, when they upgraded, how they upgraded, what the coins started out as and whether the coins are high end, low end or average for the current grade.
3. Select the proper dealer(s) to work with you for the series you are interested in. It is great fun to upgrade coins an astute dealer has selected for you as "PQ" specimens and gets back to Gregg's observation that the some astute collectors can build incredible collections on "beer money"
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
i was connected.......when i started there was just jack lee and me basically in the high grade morgan market
my good friend and neighbor has one of the best " eyes " in the biz....he put it out on the bourse that he was buying all pq dollars and he " was the market".....he had a great deal....he only monster coins....coins that were undergraded......dealers soon learned dont waist his time with so so stuff....only monsters......for years he worked on buying ...if the coin upgraded it went to jack lee....if it didnt it went to me....i loved my postion and so did jack and so did he because he sold all he bought the next day for a profit....this went on for years.....then jack bought bodeway`s set for 2 million and i got 1st shot at the dups after he combined them...i bought 23 coins out of that deal.....geez what a killing that was...the market was so weak back then i had four 80-o in 65 in front of me to chose from......3 pcgs and 1 ngc.....i bought the best...the ngc coin ( and when i pedigreed my set it crossed)......anyway coin after coin....boom boom.........then i started feeling someone out there....after 3 years i found out who it was....it was rob lehman....a very good dealer at finding the mooses........so my coins slowed down to a crawl.........after 5 years lehmans customer " blew up" and all of lehman`s work landed right in my hotel room at the fun show in my roomates briefcase.....and that was bill spears.......well hell i had a hay day once again and switched out ( all legally ...i paid to do it) about 10 coins which was 5 years of lehman`s woirk....and now i was just about there...."PQ HEAVEN".....COIN AFTER COIN AFTER COIN........GEEZ right place right time....time and time again
and then jack sold his collection.........i ran through it and bought every coin i wanted ...........it was GREAT....I WAS ABOUT 4 COINS away from perfect ....then a pl collector named joel bought some of jacks`s pls which gave him dups in exactly the 4 coins i could possibly improve .......and presto i was complete and ready to take on anybody in the world in the crack out game.......i tried i really tried but i never recieved any takers...........
so what you should do is email me and i`ll introduce you to " the man"...he has the best eye and a system......and he is disciplined...so once he gives up on a coin he will sell it.....AND I ASSURE YOU THOSE ARE THE COINS TO BUY.......you see us collectors cant compete with the pros....but we have one advantage....and that is time.....we can hold for a while and gradflation will take care of us!!!
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
If you think that I dissed your knowledge of Morgans, then fine, I apologize for that. It's obvious you are quite knowledgable and passionate.
I do not apologize for your statement (and multitudinous backup) that Jack still had a better set than Mike - it's not a point I was trying to make. I certainly accept the fact that there are sets out there better than the ones on the Registry, or even lower rated sets. I do not apologize for PCGS's rating system or weighting system or any errors PCGS has made in the set rating of the two sets. You have focused on a simple statement that I made and I stand by the math - if PCGS's set ratings are messed up, then please use your passion to get it fixed! Shouldn't be that hard to send a list of Jack Lee upgrades to PCGS and have them change his set composition higher. Then Morgan fools like me and the general collector population can appreciate even more what Jack accomplished.
Based on what Doubledie pointed out, the set ratings shouldn't be as close as they are. Based on what you pointed out, many of Jack's coins are now in higher holders. Between the two problems, Gilley's set looks better than it is - sorry Mike, I thought you had one fine set! Now I have been shown the light! Better lower your price.........
Edited to state that I have checked Jack's set rating and it appears that it should be 66.50 vs 66.00 - that's quite an error on PCGS's part!!!
Based on a set rating of 66.50, Gregg is certainly correct that Mike's set could not overtake Jack's just by upgrading a few key dates. I based my statement on PCGS's erroneous set ratings ...... see what happens when you make statements based on others' numbers?!?
In my own defense, my calculations were correct based on the information provided. I've emailed BJ asking her to correct the set rating. The correct set rating will show Jack's set in the light it should be shown - over half a grade better on average than the next finest set ever completed! Quite an accomplishment!!!!!
Sorry, I am cancelling my previous response to this thread.
While I have very strong opinions on why people should collect (NOT FOR THE SAKE OF THE REGISTRY), I apparently misunderstood the thrust of what TDN was trying to say.
I will make one final comment: you don't have to have the best set on the registry to feel good about what you've built.
Laura Sperber lsperber1@hotmail.com
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>....... you don't have to have the best set on the registry to feel good about what you've built. >>
I could not agree more.
But is also true to enjoy observing the passion of those who strive for the finest whether it is on the resgistry or not. My fear as a collector over the years had been that those who had the means to "buy" their way into the finest ranks as a collector did not quite share the same passion as collector(s)...........boy, tonight was an eyeopener...............I see how wrong I was!!!!!!!
Kudos to the collectors TDN, monstercoin, wondercoin and anyone else I left out! The hobby has a bright future indeed!
This thread got way out of control. Anyone who spent ten minutes would have probably come to the conclusion that Jacks set was a true monster set. TDN's suggestion that Monsterman talk PCGS into recognizing his upgrades doesn't make any sense. If he still had the set it would have been reflected. The registry is only about the numbers. So the fact is while I would rather have Jacks set, he could get bounced strictly by upgrading a coin in the other set. Why the big debate? As for you Monsterman, you sent far to many messages that disturbed me. But I must apologize. I do not collect morgans. I went to the registry but I didn't see your name anywhere. Did I miss it? If so, which one was it? You claim you are a real collector, so why then did you sell your set? Or did you? Some of the trash you have been running us I would like to recap as to how you built you set, and you tell me what your collector IQ is.
You were connected - ok this is smart. You had a "good friend" with the "eyes" - ok maybe you were on training wheels at that time.
This bright friend announced that he was the market - now becoming the magnet to overpay for everything he would acquire on your behalf.
You told him or he told you he should look for the "undergraded" ones - now I had to write this one down - DUH?
If the coins upgraded Jack got them, if they didn't you did - I guess your great friend could make more money off Jack. So you were effectively left to pay for coins not undergraded, but actually properly graded. But I bet your friend sold them to you as shot coins, or in your jargon PQ examples.
You then bought 23 coins "a real killing - for the dealer I guess!
It took you 3 years to figure out who was on your tail - now this is some special investigative work.
Then the MONSTERMAN was ready to take on da world!!!! - Who holds it for you when you take out the Monster, Monsterman. Here is where I really had it. In a previous thread you say look out for the little guy. Then in another you say the collector can not compete with the pros. Then you say you have to be really good at it. Give us a break! You do nothing but shell out the cash! And now you expect bragging rights? Then you insult every collector by bragging about making a profit on "dipped" coins. A true collector? Thats why guys like you are not allowed to collect copper. You would ruin it for everyone.
So in summary it sounds like you have way more money than brains. But maybe you could be my sponsor? If not, then I challenge you to your famous crackout contest. We pick an area that has no history. I suggest the European stuff. Now its just you and me. Your buddies wouldn't waste their time helping you out on this project, even for money. There are about 230 or so coins from the 16 countries from the cent to the 2E. It will make for an interesting collection when we finish. We agree on how long the contest will run. We then get a grading service of you choice to grade all coins and determine the winner based on highest overall grade. We could do it for money or for the collecting experience. Maybe get PCGS to sponsor us both! You'll even have an advantage these being silver (no dipping please or else if the grading service throws out your coin you will have a hard time making up the difference).
>>>>>This thread got way out of control>>>>>> thats your opinion which is great!!!!
>>>>>>>TDN's suggestion that Monsterman talk PCGS into recognizing his upgrades doesn't make any sense.>>>>>>>havent got a clue here...you are the one making no sense...first i quit talking to pcgs about the registry on the 6 th person running it....as far as recognizing his upgrades ...what are you talking about..thats impossible in coins.......oh.....but not in currency!!!they have serial ## you know!!
>>>>>>So the fact is while I would rather have Jacks set, he could get bounced strictly by upgrading a coin in the other se>>>>> there you go...you just pegged out the dumb meter...NO THE FACT IS HE CANNOT GET BOUNCED BY UPGRADING ANOTHER SET......NOT EVEN GILLEYS.....WELL THATS NOT TRUE....HE COULD ........BUT IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR YOU TO FLY TO THE MOON...SO I GUESS ITS POSSIBLE....geez..i just went thru this....look at the key coins and the grades........YO--YO--- Yo---- LINC......earth to linc...why do you think they call rthem "key coins"??
>>>>>Why the big debate? As for you Monsterman, you sent far to many messages that disturbed me>>>>>>>thats your opinion and its great
>>>>I went to the registry but I didn't see your name anywhere.>>>>>>>well...i just went there after a 2 year hiatis....its the NFL SET.....it has fallen like a rock.......why??well ..2 reasons...first there are 2 coins missing...one is the 7/8 `78.....when they started it was a variety ...now its a part of the set...GEEZZ I WISH THEY WOULD GET IT TOGETHER AT PCGS and second they never gave me credit for my 93-s.....YEA I FAXED THEM THE PAPER WORK ON IT IN BETWEEN THE 4TH GUY AND THE 5 TH GUY RUNNING IT.....however somebody fumbled the ball again....and again.....and again....i bought the 93 -s from a houston lawyer named dale friend who bought it from dwight manley.....i sold it private treaty to a guy named morris silverman....now if you care to look ..check out the key coins.....then go to the cc coins....then go to the semi keys....then look at the generics....a cursorary look see would tell you i could sell the 92-s .......upgrade the generics ...but 40 to 50 k in my pocket and be in the top 5 all time finest.....however i`m now 19 th.........THE REGISTRY SYSTEM WAS NOT WORKING BACK THEN AND IT DOESNT WORK RIGHT NOW......its flawed and doesnt fly!!!look at andy hanson...he is at 24 th or something...go look at his coin grades ....HOW STUPID is that of pcgs !!!!duh`!!!!!
>>>>You claim you are a real collector, so why then did you sell your set>>>>>>>a combination of things that if one or more werent present i might not of
1) asset allocation... 2) there were a few collectors in high end morgans who were alot dumber than they thought....and thier ignorance was unappealing to me .....and their ignorance showed when they sold 3) pcgs`s failure to have a working system that showed them how dumb they were...AKA A WEIGHTED SYSTEM THAT WORKS 4) i accomplished what i started out to do which was to put together one of the all time top complete sets and not loose money doing it...which btw has only been done by 6 people in history..and they are
louis eliasberg wayne miller george bodway jack lee gregg bingham mike casper
all the others have lost money......gilley and lyod....since they havent sold yet the jury is still out
>>>>You had a "good friend" with the "eyes" - ok maybe you were on training wheels at that time>>>>now your pegging the idiot meter....obvoiusly you dont have a clue....but you had better learn the rules of the game......you had better learn what graders see.....you had better learn that they really dont mind a guy grading who desnt know jack about grading this series or that series....take a commem like the conneticut...pcgs doesnt care if a grader doesnt know what full knob is....i know the guy who ownes the most stuck up conneticut there is.....and it should be a 68...it only cost him1000 in grading fees for the right grader to see it.......YEAH FOR CLCT STOCKHOLDERS.......boo for the collector spending the 1000
>>>>This bright friend announced that he was the market - now becoming the magnet to overpay for everything he would acquire on your behalf.>>>>>>>there you go again.....pegging the idiot meter...you dont get it do you.....you remind me of a brick wall ...overpay!!!!!if you call paying 7000 for a 93 -cc in 64 ( which bid at 5000 at the time ) which was 40 % over bid... over paying....for a whale of a coin???i guess i was dumb right up to the point i sent it in and it came back in a 65 holder.....btw it sold for 44000...so i guess i am 37000 dumb..........i could go on and on ...the smart ones get it ...you dont...sorry !!!!
>>>>>You told him or he told you he should look for the "undergraded" ones - now I had to write this one down - DUH?>>>>>> good write it down..you need too....write this down too...." you have to learn before you earn"
>>>>>If the coins upgraded Jack got them, if they didn't you did - I guess your great friend could make more money off Jack. So you were effectively left to pay for coins not undergraded, but actually properly graded. But I bet your friend sold them to you as shot coins, or in your jargon PQ examples.>>>>> damm....you broke my idiot meter...you are clueless arent you.....will somebody help me here....not only doesnt this guy know who is on first ....he doesnt know what stadium we are playing in.....listen and listen good....PCGS DOESNT PROPERLY GRADE COINS---NGC DOES-----PCGS UNDERGRADES COINS....this inturn doubles or triples submissions......EACH TIME ITS OWNED BY SOMEONE......this in turn increases revenue......this inturn increases profits ( not yet for clct because they waisted several millions on expansion dreams and 500,000 saleries) .....yea they were shot coins and over half made it in a decade......HAVENT YOU EVER HEARD OF GRADEFLATION.......dont you know they are ranking coins........geez....the same coin 16 years ago was a 65.....then 66.......then 67.....now its a 68..........geez guy GET IT!!!!! 16 years ago it was the nicest one........and if yourdumb enough to sell it to me in that 65 holder i`ll buy!!!!!and yes i`ll pay you a 40 % premium....then i`ll keep your 37,000 you left on the table....pay the fed their tax so they can redistribute some of your cash back to you thru social services
>>>>>>You then bought 23 coins "a real killing - for the dealer I guess!>>>now i told you that you broke my idiot meter.....so i got my back up and you broke it too...........yea the pcgs tour 80-cc i bought for 7000 just about broke me when bill spears paid 22000 for it at fun `01 auction...i even told him what i paid for it......yea i really got screwed when i bought that moose 86-p in 67 for 1400 and sent it in and it graded 68....sold it to gilley for 15 times what i paid for it...actually i did get screwed ........i left 3000 on the table gelley told me.....do you want me to go on ignat!!!
>>>>>>It took you 3 years to figure out who was on your tail - now this is some special investigative work.>>>hey meat head.......now youve proven that your dumber than that brickwall......you will always finish near the bottom in this hobby...........you obviously dont know who your competion is...and you dont know jack about how to buy....you propbably have your want lists out to 10 different dealers....theyare all out there fighting for coins and the sellers are feeling it .....AND THEY ARE RAISING THE PRICES TO MEET THE INCREASED DEMANs .....only the 10 dealers are all working for you....brilliant einstien...your running up your own prices dummy...on the other hand rob leheman can be stealth.......and know one knows ....until he is done.....that way he buys better.....YOU ON THE OTHER HAND WANT TO PAY ALL THE MONEY...FOR A SO SO COIN----WAY TO GO CHUEY!!!!
>>>>Here is where I really had it. In a previous thread you say look out for the little guy.<<<<<THATS THE PROBLEM YOU DONT HAVE IT......you just know think well...dont pull a quote out of context.......you see the little guy watches his money ...just alittle more...he is the guy who couldnt afford the 65 now a 68....he is the guy who bought the 63 and is now a 66...figure it out pal
>>>Then in another you say the collector can not compete with the pros. Then you say you have to be really good at it>>>>>>hey meat dont take it out of context.....if you can go to a show once a month and " out duel " a guy who travelsa the country going to shows every day then your name is god and i humbly kneel....however your a dummy.......for all those who are ready ( not for my summy here)...collerotrs can compete....all they have to do is know what weapons they have ......the collectors bazooka is TIME.....i know most of you already knew it or figured it out from the above litiney...buy pq coins and time will take care of you....meat your lost!
>>>>Then you insult every collector by bragging about making a profit on "dipped" coins>>>>>>>ok im getting boared...what do you know about dipping meathead .......just the opposite....you again dont have a clue...collectors have only paid for the right to be the conservater of the coins we own for a period of time...you know that big old thumb print you put on your coins ....you know the one when you were eating that big mac...well you just killed a coin for future generations...nice going...remember when your friend came over and he put your coin down on your table where you spilled the beer ...well the hpos in the beer will kill the coin....and if you would of not gotten thrown out of chem 101 you would of heard of poly vinyl chloride ( aka pvc) you have ruined dozens of coins and someone has to take it off or there will be nothing left in 2050....the mona lisa ....the liberty bell ...the pryamids....the actual constitution....betsy ross`s flag....they are all heading south....and need to be preserved for the future generations.....coins too meathead
>>>>>So in summary it sounds like you have way more money than brains.>>>>> no dummy ....they are really the same .....if you were that smart you would make a million a year.......in reality if your worth 20 k you get 20 k.....if you were worth 100 k...you get 100 k....if you were worth a mil you get a mil...........look here meathead...money is no problem.....show me how to make a mil and i`ll split it with ya....i have all the reasoures you need so there is no excuse...you cant say " i dont have the capital" i got it and i`ll back you 100 %....you need no cash ..just brains.....i wont hold my breath!! but the offer still stands ...MAKE ME SOME MONEY....ANNY AMOUNT AND I`LL SPLIT IT WITH YA.......david hall figured it out....made him about 20 million with pcgs....so come up with the plan stan
>>>>>If not, then I challenge you to your famous crackout contest. We pick an area that has no history. I suggest the European stuff. Now its just you and me. Your buddies wouldn't waste their time helping you out on this project, even for money. There are about 230 or so coins from the 16 countries from the cent to the 2E. >>>
sorry charlie.....way ahead of you....been buying foriegn for about 15 years now.....nothing has more value than monster toned foriegn coins......i know you have been doing it since time but yours all have fench fry grease on them and are heading south.......btw........i keep running into the same guy on my foriegn quest....john albanesse......you know the only guy to own both pcgs and ngc....mmmmmhow about that
>>>>>What's it gonna be MONSTERMAN - do ya feel lucky?>>>>>ther is an old say " id rather be lucky than good".....well pal...that saying was said by a loser....he said it for losers....id rather be good than lucky......news flalh!!!!!LUCK IS WHEN HARD WORK AND OPPORTUNITY MEET
IM OUT!!!!
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I have 9 number one sets (listed as The McClellan Collection).
Most are due to Specialty Sets in the Modern Commemorative Series which are a subset of the 50c, $1 and gold pieces, where I have sets registered.
The Specialy Sets were added in June so there wasn't alot of competition and I could have been blown away if others had registered their coins in these sets, but nobody knew about them I guess. Since the awards some other people have found them so I'm not #1 anymore, but I still have the 2002 icon by my set.
In the coin collecting world, Modern Commemoratives are kind of on the low end of the scale. Even though the population numbers are low, there are a lot of coins sitting in dresser drawers out there that would probably grade PR69DCAM (probably 20%) so their rarity is not really represented correctly in the population numbers.
It was fun to build the set, but I don't know of any real satisfaction other than it was something to do.
Hey Guys ! I just noticed that my Morgan set is listed as #14 of all time !!
And Gregg's NFL set is listed # 19 !
Most people who don't have a clue would think my set is better than his was ?
Probably a handfull of his Keys would be worth more than my complete set !
That is how screwed up the registry rankings are.
PCGS could fix the Registry numbers so they would mean something..but that would mean hiring someone that has a clue to deal with this. That WILL NEVER happen.
Time for tennis, Larry
Larry Shapiro Rare Coins - LSRC POB 854 Temecula CA 92593 310-710-2869 cell www.LSRarecoins.com Larry@LSRarecoins.com
Monsterman I don't like you - yet. Lets cut through the unnecessary comments and give the other readers a break. If I can't make any money off you in a contest, then maybe, I say maybe you can help educate me on morgan rankings. How would YOU rank the top coins in the following catagories?
tens - nines - eights - sevens - sixes -
This way we all can benefit from your experience. If you want to go all the way to ones that would be great. Looking forward to your response.
Monsterman I don't like ....you would if you knew me....maybe :-)
- yet. Lets cut through the unnecessary comments and give the other readers a break........good idea.....you are right!!!!!!
How would YOU rank the top coins in the following catagories?......i dont understand what you mean..do you mean the tuffest in the morgan set or all coins...or??......if you could explain a little more i`ll be glad to help if i can
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Monsterman - currently in the registry the 1893-s is weighted a "10" assumed to be the toughest coin in the set. I think there were 5 coins weighted a nine, 5 dates an eight etc. This is how they have computed the set ratings. What I would like to see is how you would rank each date ie: as a nine or a four etc. Basically redoing their weighting table. Tomorrow I will look into a current coin world and list out the rankings by date by market value. Just to see how PCGS current weighting compares to how the market is weighting each coin. Now arguably you could have a situation where there are no dates given a seven for instance. That number could be skipped right over. PCGS uses all #'s 1 through 10. Maybe there is a 10(1893-S) then some nines and then all the rest get no higher than a five. This would be more in line with your assertions that some of the keys should be weighted more heavily in the set. Lets see what you come up with. I suspect this will not be an easy exercise. Even in my own set (lincolns) this would not be so easy for me to come up with. Somehow these guys came up with the weightings and they are all recognized industry experts. I wonder if they documented their logic somehow and would be willing to share this with collectors. I will ask BJ if she has anything.
PS - I did check out your set and it looked pretty darn good.
The weights are for "the most collectable grade" not the high grades that most top registry sets have in their collection. So a coin that is readily available in lower MS, but really rare in top grade, will not be weighted correctly for that grade.
This is an excellent point, and I guess right at the heart of the debate. I would like to hear from Monsterman in establishing a basic ranking system that we could then award bonus points to for purposes of more accurately reflecting grade differences. We could then propose this to PCGS for comments.
Hey Lincoln.. they should have been giving bonus points for PL and DMPL coins instead of making us start another set. That is just another way to sell more coins. I have told them my feelings many times.. They don't want to hear anything that makes "cents" Larry
Larry Shapiro Rare Coins - LSRC POB 854 Temecula CA 92593 310-710-2869 cell www.LSRarecoins.com Larry@LSRarecoins.com
i will try to rank them from memory.........i havent gotten a pop book in 2 years.......the reason is i have learned what is in them and know morgans pretty well as most know their series....the pop book is off when looking at some coins ....meaning a " break coin" like the 91 -p....the pop is much lower in 65 than the pop says because of the heavy resubmissions of a coin or two that could be 66...which was zero for 15 years....the 91-p comes very markey just like the 79-p does..........i submitted my 91-p twice.........and when it sold for way too cheap...... about 8000........i was not happy....but the smart buyer submitted it and bingo the first 66...well there are 3 tags the were not turned into pcgs and thus the pop grows...but it obviously doesnt......in fact pcgs used to pay 50 cents a tag in order to keep the pops right.........it got to be a nightmare for them as each had to be physically looked at and subtracted from the pops....seeing as it was costing them money ...not only the 50 cents but in a salary as well they stopped it....i have been to many upgraders rooms at hotels who had garbage cans full of tags..........while tey lost their 50 cents and the pop means less to us now.....they have the knowledge in their heads what they real pops are....a case in point.....the pop will show maybe 15 ....80-0 in 65.....but i can tell you it is much closer to 7.....i know one dealer who paid 135000 for the last word 80-o in 1989.......and he died this year with 5 tags in his safe.......
here is a little ditty for all to think about and ties in with the "reasons for dipping".....almost everyone knows about the upgrade game.......but i think very few have thought about this....i have seen an upgrader i know write a check for 143000 for grading fees at one show...yea he was the one with the garbage bag full of tags ( inserts) ........well he had a fatory going and 2 employees crackin and doing paper work.......he was dippin...........problem was he wasnt nuetralizing....( and quite frankly i think it was purposefull because those very same coins would have to be recleaned again and he would see them again down the road..for he is a master....i think he looked at it as an annuity).....anyway the wonder white coins were rinsed in tap water .....and tap water varies from hotel to hotel and city to city and the shear numbers would mean he would taint the rinse with " stuff" due to the shear numbers of coins
so if your white morgan isnt so white anymore know you know why....
as i have earlier said the jack lee set will never be surpassed by grades ...but just so you know ...he did have some coins in there turnig a little brown....for the reasons stated above
just so all of you know and this is key......the gilley set was hand built by bill spears each and every coin was hand picked over several years and hand "preserved " ( for a lack of a better term....were thoroughly rinsed and then he used a glass of perrier water for each coin)........ each is blast white..........each is a moose and the set is the most impressive thing i have ever seen...including jacks ( btw bill and i roomed together at coin shows and he helped me preserve mine too ).....that being said just between us ....it wouldnt take many keys addions ( in my eyes )....and less than the technical numbers needed to be the most impressive set ever built....he is oh so close
one more thing ...the 93-s in 67.....it be a turnin brown......the ole norweb coin probably has a value of about 650,000 right now......when my good friend ( who owns it ) gets up the nerve...he is going to "preserve it"...when he does .......the new price will be 1,000,000.............now a really smart rich dude...could buy the gilley set.........becaome a season ticket hold of the utah jazz and pick up a 84-s in 68 out there.....mosey on down south here and pick up a 89-cc in 68...........head on back up to missouri and pick up the finest 83-s ....ever........swing back down to texas for a 96-s in 69 and have a preservation party and .......bingo......he would not only have the best looking set EVER BUILT ....but he could have the HIGHEST GRADED TOO.............you see jack had only a few weaknesses....the 79-p ( as i owned the 67 and sold it to gilley )...oo-s ( which i bought from him for my set ) and the 83-s......the 83-s i am talikng about is a no question 68 ....so you see jack can be beat....but only if the gilley set is bought in tact.....if it is broken....JACK`S SET WILL NEVER EVER BE CHALLENGED AGAIN.....EVER
and now you know the rest of the story...........paul harvey ....good-day
keys
93-s ....by far...when they available .....people come a runnin..like no other
92-S.....rare in all mintstate grades
95-o.....tuff tuff coin
84-s.....another tuffy
01-p.....another tuffy
now weighting coins is a problem because you have to say "in what grade"...92-s in gem is not as hard as 01-p yet it is 3 coins away in the " tuffy" scale.....so as you can see it would be much harder for me to get a gem 01-p than a gem 92-s..........how ever if you were building a 63 set the 01-p would be much easier than the 92-s
all righty then ...im out
gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman: When mentioning all those great silver dollar collectors shouldn't the grandaddy of all of them (Miller) get at least honorable mention?
Now, the 1886-O in 67 DMPL always turned me on. I like that kind of exclusive neighborhood. The pop reports are still quite valid. No 66 of any kind and only 2 MS-65 and none in PL or DM. The 122 in MS-64 is probably overstated by at least 100?
Syl.....er still, I must remain calm when I remember the worst numismatics has to offer.
Yes.......Bum Phillips.......he was a great one. A class guy that I liked with that big Texan hat. Did he ever get inducted into Canton? I never liked that arrogant coach that succeeded him.
Great thread, learned more about high end morgans and how the game is played in the time it took to read and reread this thread than I could have imagined. I appreciate knowing how some of these sets were put together. Having two daughters who graduated from Purdue and a member of my family tree who played tight end for Purdue and caught a record number of passes against my beloved Irish, in my beloved stadium, I hope you don't mind Greg if I quote Bum Phillips "Greg had one of those motors that never stopped. "To keep him out of the game, you'd have to cut off his head and hide it." Sounds like the same passion you have for Morgans and commems.
well the coach who followed bum was ed biles.......he came to houston with bum and was the brains behind the defense....he invented the nickel defense ( 5 d backs) ....he aslso started the dime ( 6 d backs ).....he was a genious.....he really wasnt arrogant but he was confident....which the 2 are very close to one another....if you were on a plane in really bad weather would you like the pilot to come on the pa and say ....gezz folks we are in a big storm ...i hope i can get us back safely!!! or one that said please sit down and fasten your set belts and remain calm.......i am the best pilot there is and i guarntee you you will be kissing your loved ones shortly....sounds arrogant but i like that when my life is on the line...confidence or conceit....they are ever so close now arent they.....ed biles was brilliant and he might of been percieved as arrogant but he want ....he was great at what he did!!
>>>>>>I hope you don't mind Greg if I quote Bum Phillips "Greg had one of those motors that never stopped. "To keep him out of the game, you'd have to cut off his head and hide it." Sounds like the same passion you have for Morgans and commems.>>>>>
i guess you would have to say thats the way i have always done things .........i have a young son who could be really good ( 16 year old sophmore and on the varsity).....in order to instill in him things i think he should have i often relate to movies we have seen together.....i often relate to the terminator move with arnold schwartsneger ( sp )....where the guy says........he is a terminator...thats what he does....and he wont stop....ever....he will be relentless...he wont stop until he gets you
that being said ...if you follow the above as a way of life you will succeed.......however my next lesson to him is to keep him from " going over the top" into being way too overly much of extremist...where i tell him to get prepared...get your " hay in the barn"....do all you can to prepare........show up at game time READY......if thats not good enough to win that day ......over come it as there will be another day.....for it is the person who lays it all on the line and does the best he can and then looses.....who then gets up from the ground and does it all over agian .........for he is the real winner
the following is really just a " plug in " for the game of life dont ya think
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I really enjoyed this thread on morgan dollars even though I don't collect them. I'm not really clear on the argument you were having on coins that USED to be Jack's and now upgraded. How is anyone supposed to try and keep track of that? And are you saying PCGS doesn't figure set ratings right or that the weights aren't right causing the calculations to be wrong. The programming can be fixed. The weights are opinoins. And we all know what they say about opinoins.
And since we got off the subject and on to football...Let me say (and this is not a suckup) that being a Dallas Cowboy fan forever, I always disliked the Oilers. But they had 2 players that I always thought would look good with a STAR on there helmet. A linebacker named Gregg Bingham and a RB named Earl Campbell(sp). We (Cowboys) would probably have several more Super Bowl trophies if so. I love a running back that would just rather run over you than around you. Barry Sanders is fun to watch. But a DB's worst nightmare would have to be seeing big Earl coming thru the line and your the only thing between him and the endzone. There aren't many DB's that would or could stop that from being 6 points! Makes me shudder to think about it.
The set rating on the Jack Lee set is WRONG. I calculate that it should be 66.5 not 66.0. That is using the grades listed and the weights as they currently are published. BJ said she would address the issue when she gets back from Chicago (don't know when).
I'm not really clear on the argument you were having on coins that USED to be Jack's and now upgraded. How is anyone supposed to try and keep track of that? And are you saying PCGS doesn't figure set ratings right or that the weights aren't right causing the calculations to be wrong. The programming can be fixed. The weights are opinoins. And we all know what they say about opinoins.>>>>>>>>>
if a gave the impression that ex jack coins ( or anybodys ) shouldnt be allowed to be counted at the new grade....that wasnt my intention....unfortunately there is no way for the old guys to be credited for what they did ( wayne miller and george bodway).....as they will drop like rocks thru the years allthough they had the same coins ...just now they are a few grades higher......thus GRADEFLATION........what this means to me is that the services are ranking coins.....slowly using up the zeors on the pop report......it was only 20 years ago when there wasnnt any 64 or 66.......just 63......65 gem....and 67.....suberb gem....then they went to splitin hairs....now they are really splittin them...and at ms 69 ....they are all split
And since we got off the subject and on to football...Let me say (and this is not a suckup) that being a Dallas Cowboy fan forever, I always disliked the Oilers. But they had 2 players that I always thought would look good with a STAR on there helmet. A linebacker named Gregg Bingham and a RB named Earl Campbell(sp). We (Cowboys) would probably have several more Super Bowl trophies if so. I love a running back that would just rather run over you than around you. Barry Sanders is fun to watch. But a DB's worst nightmare would have to be seeing big Earl coming thru the line and your the only thing between him and the endzone. There aren't many DB's that would or could stop that from being 6 points! Makes me shudder to think about it.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i appreciate the compliments.........and i`ll tell ya earl was a load....it wont take you long to figure out who has tackled earl campbell more than anyone else....:-)..........now all of you now know why i am such a poor speller...:-)
ttyl gregg
ps i always enjoyed playing the cowboys ( the old bunch...stauback...white....dorset.....pearson....newhouse......fitsgerald....nye.....too tall...howley ...jordan....waters and the rest of the crew...the new kids ........ehh ...if you know what i mean
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Greg I love talking football, with apologies to the other members, but didn't the Boilers have a great draft the year you were drafted. If memory serves me right, didn't Butz, Otis Armstrong, Darryl Stingley, Gary(?) Hrivnak, Steve Baumgartner, Brent Myers and Don Smith all go in that draft and weren't you picked about half-way down that list? Must not of had combines back then.
>>>>>>Greg I love talking football, with apologies to the other members, but didn't the Boilers have a great draft the year you were drafted. If memory serves me right, didn't Butz, Otis Armstrong, Darryl Stingley, Gary(?) Hrivnak, Steve Baumgartner, Brent Myers and Don Smith all go in that draft and weren't you picked about half-way down that list.>>>>>>>>>>>.
excellent memory...otis darryl ,buts and nyself were all recruited by ron meyer...we were all from chicago and he picked all of us up and off to purdue we went ...it was a car load to say the least......you forgot gary danielson who played about 14 years in the biggs too and some others who got a year or 2 in.... like bronco kesser......tim racke.....rick sayers........
houston had the first pick where we picked john matuszak...we traded our # 2 to buffalo for al cowlings ( playing with him got me supenaed to the oj trial ...thanks a bunch al)...our 3 rd pick went to baltimore for a center named bill curry and i was the next pick which was housonn`s 1 st pick in the 4 th round.....as a linebacker.....coming to purdue who was # 1 when i signed there wasnt any room for any freshman as they were loaded.....i did see the only opportunity for me was to play defensive line...so i asked to be changed i was obliged and i played all my years next to butz in the defensive line........not being big enough to play d-line in the bigs....houston took a chance that they could switch me to linebacker ( it had been tried several times and nobody ever did it ) ....i dont really know what in the world they were thinking until i got to training camp...they were going to solve the middle linebacker problem with shear numbers...there were 15 of us for one postion...i was 14 th on the depth chart and when the first preseason game came around i guess they thought they would get rid of me fast so they started me the 1st game........and likewise for the next 12 years
and now you know the rest of the story
gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Great story on your position switch. Somebody must have known or seen something. Luck just doesn't happen very often in the biggs.
Dallas did just the opposite with Randy White. He was a linebacker at Maryland I believe, and Tom put him on the line. He turned out pretty good too. The "manster" came to play.
one thing though.....randy white was a defensive tackle at maryland
Randy White, Defensive Lineman Maryland, 1971-1974
and after the cowboys drafted him they wanted him to play linebacker.....you see while listed at 265....he was more like 245.....well they tried him at linebacker ( thats why he has my number) all preseason in his first year and ....well..... it wasnt pretty....in fact it was down right terrible and looked like tex schram made a huge bust of his # 1 draft choice....the media was unbelievable....they were on tex like white on rice....randy just stunk up the place....well they decided he couldnt play linebacker and put him down on the ground again like he was in college.....and after 10 weeks of linebacking drills he was killin the o-line running around them like they werent even there..........he was everywhere........he put on a few pounds ( 25 ) and went straight to the hall of fame.....i can remember the match up ( we played dallas every year) in 1981 with our new rookie guard mike munchak ( who is one of the best ever..period)....randy put some stuff on him but the kid ......as you might expect........the next year the match up was more even.......and the next it wasnt close...munch had arrived and right into the hall of fame too.........keep in mind munch was a very quick guard.....and that is a dallas flex tackles nightmare because munch took away randy`s strenght...his quickness
and now you know the rest of the story
ttyl gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Another great story. I sure thought Randy was a backer at Maryland, but you should know. So he was quick, but not quick enough to play linebacker. Well, I remember he had that linebacker mentality. And I mean that as a compliment. All of the great ones had it... you...Buckus...Lambert....Singletary (who the cowboys passed on to get someone else that busted) and others. The cowboys used to stay good all of the time because of the great drafting ability. Then there was a period in there (I forget the exact years) that they stunk. I remember reading in the Dallas Cowboy Weekly once a list of people they passed on. It was a who's who list of great players. I remember Singletary because we were weak at middle backer because of it. As you and everyone knows the middle backer is the heart of the D. He calls the D and must read the O and make changes at the line. I can't even remember his name now. I think it was Bob something. He was OK, but nothing special and didn't have that backer mentality. They have some good backers now, especially one. Can't think of his name right now. I think I'm getting CRS. You know Can't Remember Sh*t. Anyway he has super speed and has that "mentality" that strikes fear in rb's and wr's coming over the middle. You can see it in his eyes. The Ravens have a tremendous backer in Ray something #52 I think. No one likes him because of his off field problems, but he CAN play.
I'm rambleing....sorry
Jon
P.S. I thought the NFL set of Morgans were yours alone, but I looked at the set and the comentary said there were several players. Who were the others or can you say. There was a baseball player who collected coins also. Andre Dawson I think. That man could hit!
>>>>>I thought the NFL set of Morgans were yours alone, but I looked at the set and the comentary said there were several players. Who were the others or can you say>>>>>>>>
tommy kramer of the vikings is a very good friend of mine....he split a few coins with me...when pcgs asked for a backround on the set several years ago....one other got translated into several.....( thats often happens to bios.......one bio i had .....i told the original writter that i was going to go to purdue and going into pre-med....4 or 5 writters later.....i was a doctor
i bought out tommy about 7 years ago ..so it was only me
and now you know the rest of the story....paul harvey...good-day
gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Comments
1. Pick a series or a couple of series and study them, live them, learn them and in 10-20 years you will be able to understand them, - truly understand them, as Gregg understand his Morgans and Commems and TDN understands his Tradedollars.
2. Follow the bouncing ball - learn who owned the key coins in your chosen series, what happened to them, where they sold, when they upgraded, how they upgraded, what the coins started out as and whether the coins are high end, low end or average for the current grade.
3. Select the proper dealer(s) to work with you for the series you are interested in. It is great fun to upgrade coins an astute dealer has selected for you as "PQ" specimens and gets back to Gregg's observation that the some astute collectors can build incredible collections on "beer money"
Wondercoin
here is how i built my fa-woody morgan set.......
i was connected.......when i started there was just jack lee and me basically in the high grade morgan market
my good friend and neighbor has one of the best " eyes " in the biz....he put it out on the bourse that he was buying all pq dollars and he " was the market".....he had a great deal....he only monster coins....coins that were undergraded......dealers soon learned dont waist his time with so so stuff....only monsters......for years he worked on buying ...if the coin upgraded it went to jack lee....if it didnt it went to me....i loved my postion and so did jack and so did he because he sold all he bought the next day for a profit....this went on for years.....then jack bought bodeway`s set for 2 million and i got 1st shot at the dups after he combined them...i bought 23 coins out of that deal.....geez what a killing that was...the market was so weak back then i had four 80-o in 65 in front of me to chose from......3 pcgs and 1 ngc.....i bought the best...the ngc coin ( and when i pedigreed my set it crossed)......anyway coin after coin....boom boom.........then i started feeling someone out there....after 3 years i found out who it was....it was rob lehman....a very good dealer at finding the mooses........so my coins slowed down to a crawl.........after 5 years lehmans customer " blew up" and all of lehman`s work landed right in my hotel room at the fun show in my roomates briefcase.....and that was bill spears.......well hell i had a hay day once again and switched out ( all legally ...i paid to do it) about 10 coins which was 5 years of lehman`s woirk....and now i was just about there...."PQ HEAVEN".....COIN AFTER COIN AFTER COIN........GEEZ right place right time....time and time again
and then jack sold his collection.........i ran through it and bought every coin i wanted ...........it was GREAT....I WAS ABOUT 4 COINS away from perfect ....then a pl collector named joel bought some of jacks`s pls which gave him dups in exactly the 4 coins i could possibly improve .......and presto i was complete and ready to take on anybody in the world in the crack out game.......i tried i really tried but i never recieved any takers...........
so what you should do is email me and i`ll introduce you to " the man"...he has the best eye and a system......and he is disciplined...so once he gives up on a coin he will sell it.....AND I ASSURE YOU THOSE ARE THE COINS TO BUY.......you see us collectors cant compete with the pros....but we have one advantage....and that is time.....we can hold for a while and gradflation will take care of us!!!
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
If you think that I dissed your knowledge of Morgans, then fine, I apologize for that. It's obvious you are quite knowledgable and passionate.
I do not apologize for your statement (and multitudinous backup) that Jack still had a better set than Mike - it's not a point I was trying to make. I certainly accept the fact that there are sets out there better than the ones on the Registry, or even lower rated sets. I do not apologize for PCGS's rating system or weighting system or any errors PCGS has made in the set rating of the two sets. You have focused on a simple statement that I made and I stand by the math - if PCGS's set ratings are messed up, then please use your passion to get it fixed! Shouldn't be that hard to send a list of Jack Lee upgrades to PCGS and have them change his set composition higher. Then Morgan fools like me and the general collector population can appreciate even more what Jack accomplished.
Based on what Doubledie pointed out, the set ratings shouldn't be as close as they are. Based on what you pointed out, many of Jack's coins are now in higher holders. Between the two problems, Gilley's set looks better than it is - sorry Mike, I thought you had one fine set! Now I have been shown the light! Better lower your price.........
Edited to state that I have checked Jack's set rating and it appears that it should be 66.50 vs 66.00 - that's quite an error on PCGS's part!!!
In my own defense, my calculations were correct based on the information provided. I've emailed BJ asking her to correct the set rating. The correct set rating will show Jack's set in the light it should be shown - over half a grade better on average than the next finest set ever completed! Quite an accomplishment!!!!!
While I have very strong opinions on why people should collect (NOT FOR THE SAKE OF THE REGISTRY), I apparently misunderstood the thrust of what TDN was trying to say.
I will make one final comment: you don't have to have the best set on the registry to feel good about what you've built.
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>....... you don't have to have the best set on the registry to feel good about what you've built. >>
I could not agree more.
But is also true to enjoy observing the passion of those who strive for the finest whether it is on the resgistry or not. My fear as a collector over the years had been that those who had the means to "buy" their way into the finest ranks as a collector did not quite share the same passion as collector(s)...........boy, tonight was an eyeopener...............I see how wrong I was!!!!!!!
Kudos to the collectors TDN, monstercoin, wondercoin and anyone else I left out! The hobby has a bright future indeed!
You were connected - ok this is smart.
You had a "good friend" with the "eyes" - ok maybe you were on training wheels at that time.
This bright friend announced that he was the market - now becoming the magnet to overpay for everything he would acquire on your behalf.
You told him or he told you he should look for the "undergraded" ones - now I had to write this one down - DUH?
If the coins upgraded Jack got them, if they didn't you did - I guess your great friend could make more money off Jack. So you were effectively left to pay for coins not undergraded, but actually properly graded. But I bet your friend sold them to you as shot coins, or in your jargon PQ examples.
You then bought 23 coins "a real killing - for the dealer I guess!
It took you 3 years to figure out who was on your tail - now this is some special investigative work.
Then the MONSTERMAN was ready to take on da world!!!! - Who holds it for you when you take out the Monster, Monsterman. Here is where I really had it. In a previous thread you say look out for the little guy. Then in another you say the collector can not compete with the pros. Then you say you have to be really good at it. Give us a break! You do nothing but shell out the cash! And now you expect bragging rights? Then you insult every collector by bragging about making a profit on "dipped" coins. A true collector? Thats why guys like you are not allowed to collect copper. You would ruin it for everyone.
So in summary it sounds like you have way more money than brains. But maybe you could be my sponsor? If not, then I challenge you to your famous crackout contest. We pick an area that has no history. I suggest the European stuff. Now its just you and me. Your buddies wouldn't waste their time helping you out on this project, even for money. There are about 230 or so coins from the 16 countries from the cent to the 2E. It will make for an interesting collection when we finish. We agree on how long the contest will run. We then get a grading service of you choice to grade all coins and determine the winner based on highest overall grade. We could do it for money or for the collecting experience. Maybe get PCGS to sponsor us both! You'll even have an advantage these being silver (no dipping please or else if the grading service throws out your coin you will have a hard time making up the difference).
What's it gonna be MONSTERMAN - do ya feel lucky?
>>>>>This thread got way out of control>>>>>> thats your opinion which is great!!!!
>>>>>>>TDN's suggestion that Monsterman talk PCGS into recognizing his upgrades doesn't make any sense.>>>>>>>havent got a clue here...you are the one making no sense...first i quit talking to pcgs about the registry on the 6 th person running it....as far as recognizing his upgrades ...what are you talking about..thats impossible in coins.......oh.....but not in currency!!!they have serial ## you know!!
>>>>>>So the fact is while I would rather have Jacks set, he could get bounced strictly by upgrading a coin in the other se>>>>> there you go...you just pegged out the dumb meter...NO THE FACT IS HE CANNOT GET BOUNCED BY UPGRADING ANOTHER SET......NOT EVEN GILLEYS.....WELL THATS NOT TRUE....HE COULD ........BUT IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR YOU TO FLY TO THE MOON...SO I GUESS ITS POSSIBLE....geez..i just went thru this....look at the key coins and the grades........YO--YO--- Yo---- LINC......earth to linc...why do you think they call rthem "key coins"??
>>>>>Why the big debate? As for you Monsterman, you sent far to many messages that disturbed me>>>>>>>thats your opinion and its great
>>>>I went to the registry but I didn't see your name anywhere.>>>>>>>well...i just went there after a 2 year hiatis....its the NFL SET.....it has fallen like a rock.......why??well ..2 reasons...first there are 2 coins missing...one is the 7/8 `78.....when they started it was a variety ...now its a part of the set...GEEZZ I WISH THEY WOULD GET IT TOGETHER AT PCGS and second they never gave me credit for my 93-s.....YEA I FAXED THEM THE PAPER WORK ON IT IN BETWEEN THE 4TH GUY AND THE 5 TH GUY RUNNING IT.....however somebody fumbled the ball again....and again.....and again....i bought the 93 -s from a houston lawyer named dale friend who bought it from dwight manley.....i sold it private treaty to a guy named morris silverman....now if you care to look ..check out the key coins.....then go to the cc coins....then go to the semi keys....then look at the generics....a cursorary look see would tell you i could sell the 92-s .......upgrade the generics ...but 40 to 50 k in my pocket and be in the top 5 all time finest.....however i`m now 19 th.........THE REGISTRY SYSTEM WAS NOT WORKING BACK THEN AND IT DOESNT WORK RIGHT NOW......its flawed and doesnt fly!!!look at andy hanson...he is at 24 th or something...go look at his coin grades ....HOW STUPID is that of pcgs !!!!duh`!!!!!
>>>>You claim you are a real collector, so why then did you sell your set>>>>>>>a combination of things that if one or more werent present i might not of
1) asset allocation...
2) there were a few collectors in high end morgans who were alot dumber than they thought....and thier ignorance was unappealing to me .....and their ignorance showed when they sold
3) pcgs`s failure to have a working system that showed them how dumb they were...AKA A WEIGHTED SYSTEM THAT WORKS
4) i accomplished what i started out to do which was to put together one of the all time top complete sets and not loose money doing it...which btw has only been done by 6 people in history..and they are
louis eliasberg
wayne miller
george bodway
jack lee
gregg bingham
mike casper
all the others have lost money......gilley and lyod....since they havent sold yet the jury is still out
>>>>You had a "good friend" with the "eyes" - ok maybe you were on training wheels at that time>>>>now your pegging the idiot meter....obvoiusly you dont have a clue....but you had better learn the rules of the game......you had better learn what graders see.....you had better learn that they really dont mind a guy grading who desnt know jack about grading this series or that series....take a commem like the conneticut...pcgs doesnt care if a grader doesnt know what full knob is....i know the guy who ownes the most stuck up conneticut there is.....and it should be a 68...it only cost him1000 in grading fees for the right grader to see it.......YEAH FOR CLCT STOCKHOLDERS.......boo for the collector spending the 1000
>>>>This bright friend announced that he was the market - now becoming the magnet to overpay for everything he would acquire on your behalf.>>>>>>>there you go again.....pegging the idiot meter...you dont get it do you.....you remind me of a brick wall ...overpay!!!!!if you call paying 7000 for a 93 -cc in 64 ( which bid at 5000 at the time ) which was 40 % over bid... over paying....for a whale of a coin???i guess i was dumb right up to the point i sent it in and it came back in a 65 holder.....btw it sold for 44000...so i guess i am 37000 dumb..........i could go on and on ...the smart ones get it ...you dont...sorry !!!!
>>>>>You told him or he told you he should look for the "undergraded" ones - now I had to write this one down - DUH?>>>>>> good write it down..you need too....write this down too...." you have to learn before you earn"
>>>>>If the coins upgraded Jack got them, if they didn't you did - I guess your great friend could make more money off Jack. So you were effectively left to pay for coins not undergraded, but actually properly graded. But I bet your friend sold them to you as shot coins, or in your jargon PQ examples.>>>>> damm....you broke my idiot meter...you are clueless arent you.....will somebody help me here....not only doesnt this guy know who is on first ....he doesnt know what stadium we are playing in.....listen and listen good....PCGS DOESNT PROPERLY GRADE COINS---NGC DOES-----PCGS UNDERGRADES COINS....this inturn doubles or triples submissions......EACH TIME ITS OWNED BY SOMEONE......this in turn increases revenue......this inturn increases profits ( not yet for clct because they waisted several millions on expansion dreams and 500,000 saleries) .....yea they were shot coins and over half made it in a decade......HAVENT YOU EVER HEARD OF GRADEFLATION.......dont you know they are ranking coins........geez....the same coin 16 years ago was a 65.....then 66.......then 67.....now its a 68..........geez guy GET IT!!!!! 16 years ago it was the nicest one........and if yourdumb enough to sell it to me in that 65 holder i`ll buy!!!!!and yes i`ll pay you a 40 % premium....then i`ll keep your 37,000 you left on the table....pay the fed their tax so they can redistribute some of your cash back to you thru social services
>>>>>>You then bought 23 coins "a real killing - for the dealer I guess!>>>now i told you that you broke my idiot meter.....so i got my back up and you broke it too...........yea the pcgs tour 80-cc i bought for 7000 just about broke me when bill spears paid 22000 for it at fun `01 auction...i even told him what i paid for it......yea i really got screwed when i bought that moose 86-p in 67 for 1400 and sent it in and it graded 68....sold it to gilley for 15 times what i paid for it...actually i did get screwed ........i left 3000 on the table gelley told me.....do you want me to go on ignat!!!
>>>>>>It took you 3 years to figure out who was on your tail - now this is some special investigative work.>>>hey meat head.......now youve proven that your dumber than that brickwall......you will always finish near the bottom in this hobby...........you obviously dont know who your competion is...and you dont know jack about how to buy....you propbably have your want lists out to 10 different dealers....theyare all out there fighting for coins and the sellers are feeling it .....AND THEY ARE RAISING THE PRICES TO MEET THE INCREASED DEMANs .....only the 10 dealers are all working for you....brilliant einstien...your running up your own prices dummy...on the other hand rob leheman can be stealth.......and know one knows ....until he is done.....that way he buys better.....YOU ON THE OTHER HAND WANT TO PAY ALL THE MONEY...FOR A SO SO COIN----WAY TO GO CHUEY!!!!
>>>>Here is where I really had it. In a previous thread you say look out for the little guy.<<<<<THATS THE PROBLEM YOU DONT HAVE IT......you just know think well...dont pull a quote out of context.......you see the little guy watches his money ...just alittle more...he is the guy who couldnt afford the 65 now a 68....he is the guy who bought the 63 and is now a 66...figure it out pal
>>>Then in another you say the collector can not compete with the pros. Then you say you have to be really good at it>>>>>>hey meat dont take it out of context.....if you can go to a show once a month and " out duel " a guy who travelsa the country going to shows every day then your name is god and i humbly kneel....however your a dummy.......for all those who are ready ( not for my summy here)...collerotrs can compete....all they have to do is know what weapons they have ......the collectors bazooka is TIME.....i know most of you already knew it or figured it out from the above litiney...buy pq coins and time will take care of you....meat your lost!
>>>>Then you insult every collector by bragging about making a profit on "dipped" coins>>>>>>>ok im getting boared...what do you know about dipping meathead .......just the opposite....you again dont have a clue...collectors have only paid for the right to be the conservater of the coins we own for a period of time...you know that big old thumb print you put on your coins ....you know the one when you were eating that big mac...well you just killed a coin for future generations...nice going...remember when your friend came over and he put your coin down on your table where you spilled the beer ...well the hpos in the beer will kill the coin....and if you would of not gotten thrown out of chem 101 you would of heard of poly vinyl chloride ( aka pvc) you have ruined dozens of coins and someone has to take it off or there will be nothing left in 2050....the mona lisa ....the liberty bell ...the pryamids....the actual constitution....betsy ross`s flag....they are all heading south....and need to be preserved for the future generations.....coins too meathead
>>>>>So in summary it sounds like you have way more money than brains.>>>>> no dummy ....they are really the same .....if you were that smart you would make a million a year.......in reality if your worth 20 k you get 20 k.....if you were worth 100 k...you get 100 k....if you were worth a mil you get a mil...........look here meathead...money is no problem.....show me how to make a mil and i`ll split it with ya....i have all the reasoures you need so there is no excuse...you cant say " i dont have the capital" i got it and i`ll back you 100 %....you need no cash ..just brains.....i wont hold my breath!! but the offer still stands ...MAKE ME SOME MONEY....ANNY AMOUNT AND I`LL SPLIT IT WITH YA.......david hall figured it out....made him about 20 million with pcgs....so come up with the plan stan
>>>>>If not, then I challenge you to your famous crackout contest. We pick an area that has no history. I suggest the European stuff. Now its just you and me. Your buddies wouldn't waste their time helping you out on this project, even for money. There are about 230 or so coins from the 16 countries from the cent to the 2E. >>>
sorry charlie.....way ahead of you....been buying foriegn for about 15 years now.....nothing has more value than monster toned foriegn coins......i know you have been doing it since time but yours all have fench fry grease on them and are heading south.......btw........i keep running into the same guy on my foriegn quest....john albanesse......you know the only guy to own both pcgs and ngc....mmmmmhow about that
>>>>>What's it gonna be MONSTERMAN - do ya feel lucky?>>>>>ther is an old say " id rather be lucky than good".....well pal...that saying was said by a loser....he said it for losers....id rather be good than lucky......news flalh!!!!!LUCK IS WHEN HARD WORK AND OPPORTUNITY MEET
IM OUT!!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I would pay to hear this in person.
I have to get to work now..time to make my own luck today.
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
I have 9 number one sets (listed as The McClellan Collection).
Most are due to Specialty Sets in the Modern Commemorative Series which are a subset of the 50c, $1 and gold pieces, where I have sets registered.
The Specialy Sets were added in June so there wasn't alot of competition and I could have been blown away if others had registered their coins in these sets, but nobody knew about them I guess. Since the awards some other people have found them so I'm not #1 anymore, but I still have the 2002 icon by my set.
In the coin collecting world, Modern Commemoratives are kind of on the low end of the scale. Even though the population numbers are low, there are a lot of coins sitting in dresser drawers out there that would probably grade PR69DCAM (probably 20%) so their rarity is not really represented correctly in the population numbers.
It was fun to build the set, but I don't know of any real satisfaction other than it was something to do.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I just noticed that my Morgan set is listed as #14 of all time !!
And Gregg's NFL set is listed # 19 !
Most people who don't have a clue would think my set is better than his was ?
Probably a handfull of his Keys would be worth more than my complete set !
That is how screwed up the registry rankings are.
PCGS could fix the Registry numbers so they would mean something..but that would mean hiring someone that has a clue to deal with this.
That WILL NEVER happen.
Time for tennis,
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
tens -
nines -
eights -
sevens -
sixes -
This way we all can benefit from your experience. If you want to go all the way to ones that would be great. Looking forward to your response.
- yet. Lets cut through the unnecessary comments and give the other readers a break........good idea.....you are right!!!!!!
How would YOU rank the top coins in the following catagories?......i dont understand what you mean..do you mean the tuffest in the morgan set or all coins...or??......if you could explain a little more i`ll be glad to help if i can
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
bum is bum phillips
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
PS - I did check out your set and it looked pretty darn good.
they should have been giving bonus points for PL and DMPL coins instead of making us start another set.
That is just another way to sell more coins.
I have told them my feelings many times..
They don't want to hear anything that makes "cents"
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
i will try to rank them from memory.........i havent gotten a pop book in 2 years.......the reason is i have learned what is in them and know morgans pretty well as most know their series....the pop book is off when looking at some coins ....meaning a " break coin" like the 91 -p....the pop is much lower in 65 than the pop says because of the heavy resubmissions of a coin or two that could be 66...which was zero for 15 years....the 91-p comes very markey just like the 79-p does..........i submitted my 91-p twice.........and when it sold for way too cheap...... about 8000........i was not happy....but the smart buyer submitted it and bingo the first 66...well there are 3 tags the were not turned into pcgs and thus the pop grows...but it obviously doesnt......in fact pcgs used to pay 50 cents a tag in order to keep the pops right.........it got to be a nightmare for them as each had to be physically looked at and subtracted from the pops....seeing as it was costing them money ...not only the 50 cents but in a salary as well they stopped it....i have been to many upgraders rooms at hotels who had garbage cans full of tags..........while tey lost their 50 cents and the pop means less to us now.....they have the knowledge in their heads what they real pops are....a case in point.....the pop will show maybe 15 ....80-0 in 65.....but i can tell you it is much closer to 7.....i know one dealer who paid 135000 for the last word 80-o in 1989.......and he died this year with 5 tags in his safe.......
here is a little ditty for all to think about and ties in with the "reasons for dipping".....almost everyone knows about the upgrade game.......but i think very few have thought about this....i have seen an upgrader i know write a check for 143000 for grading fees at one show...yea he was the one with the garbage bag full of tags ( inserts) ........well he had a fatory going and 2 employees crackin and doing paper work.......he was dippin...........problem was he wasnt nuetralizing....( and quite frankly i think it was purposefull because those very same coins would have to be recleaned again and he would see them again down the road..for he is a master....i think he looked at it as an annuity).....anyway the wonder white coins were rinsed in tap water .....and tap water varies from hotel to hotel and city to city and the shear numbers would mean he would taint the rinse with " stuff" due to the shear numbers of coins
so if your white morgan isnt so white anymore know you know why....
as i have earlier said the jack lee set will never be surpassed by grades ...but just so you know ...he did have some coins in there turnig a little brown....for the reasons stated above
just so all of you know and this is key......the gilley set was hand built by bill spears each and every coin was hand picked over several years and hand "preserved " ( for a lack of a better term....were thoroughly rinsed and then he used a glass of perrier water for each coin)........ each is blast white..........each is a moose and the set is the most impressive thing i have ever seen...including jacks ( btw bill and i roomed together at coin shows and he helped me preserve mine too ).....that being said just between us ....it wouldnt take many keys addions ( in my eyes )....and less than the technical numbers needed to be the most impressive set ever built....he is oh so close
one more thing ...the 93-s in 67.....it be a turnin brown......the ole norweb coin probably has a value of about 650,000 right now......when my good friend ( who owns it ) gets up the nerve...he is going to "preserve it"...when he does .......the new price will be 1,000,000.............now a really smart rich dude...could buy the gilley set.........becaome a season ticket hold of the utah jazz and pick up a 84-s in 68 out there.....mosey on down south here and pick up a 89-cc in 68...........head on back up to missouri and pick up the finest 83-s ....ever........swing back down to texas for a 96-s in 69 and have a preservation party and .......bingo......he would not only have the best looking set EVER BUILT ....but he could have the HIGHEST GRADED TOO.............you see jack had only a few weaknesses....the 79-p ( as i owned the 67 and sold it to gilley )...oo-s ( which i bought from him for my set ) and the 83-s......the 83-s i am talikng about is a no question 68 ....so you see jack can be beat....but only if the gilley set is bought in tact.....if it is broken....JACK`S SET WILL NEVER EVER BE CHALLENGED AGAIN.....EVER
and now you know the rest of the story...........paul harvey ....good-day
keys
93-s ....by far...when they available .....people come a runnin..like no other
92-S.....rare in all mintstate grades
95-o.....tuff tuff coin
84-s.....another tuffy
01-p.....another tuffy
now weighting coins is a problem because you have to say "in what grade"...92-s in gem is not as hard as 01-p yet it is 3 coins away in the " tuffy" scale.....so as you can see it would be much harder for me to get a gem 01-p than a gem 92-s..........how ever if you were building a 63 set the 01-p would be much easier than the 92-s
all righty then ...im out
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Now, the 1886-O in 67 DMPL always turned me on. I like that kind of exclusive neighborhood. The pop reports are still quite valid. No 66 of any kind and only 2 MS-65 and none in PL or DM. The 122 in MS-64 is probably overstated by at least 100?
Syl.....er still, I must remain calm when I remember the worst numismatics has to offer.
Yes.......Bum Phillips.......he was a great one. A class guy that I liked with that big Texan hat. Did he ever get inducted into Canton? I never liked that arrogant coach that succeeded him.
<< <i>Sounds like the same passion you have for Morgans and commems. >>
Passion is putting it mildly!!!!!!
>>>>>>I hope you don't mind Greg if I quote Bum Phillips "Greg had one of those motors that never stopped. "To keep him out of the game, you'd have to cut off his head and hide it." Sounds like the same passion you have for Morgans and commems.>>>>>
i guess you would have to say thats the way i have always done things .........i have a young son who could be really good ( 16 year old sophmore and on the varsity).....in order to instill in him things i think he should have i often relate to movies we have seen together.....i often relate to the terminator move with arnold schwartsneger ( sp )....where the guy says........he is a terminator...thats what he does....and he wont stop....ever....he will be relentless...he wont stop until he gets you
that being said ...if you follow the above as a way of life you will succeed.......however my next lesson to him is to keep him from " going over the top" into being way too overly much of extremist...where i tell him to get prepared...get your " hay in the barn"....do all you can to prepare........show up at game time READY......if thats not good enough to win that day ......over come it as there will be another day.....for it is the person who lays it all on the line and does the best he can and then looses.....who then gets up from the ground and does it all over agian .........for he is the real winner
the following is really just a " plug in " for the game of life dont ya think
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Gregg,
I really enjoyed this thread on morgan dollars even though I don't collect them. I'm not really clear on the argument you were having on coins that USED to be Jack's and now upgraded. How is anyone supposed to try and keep track of that? And are you saying PCGS doesn't figure set ratings right or that the weights aren't right causing the calculations to be wrong. The programming can be fixed. The weights are opinoins. And we all know what they say about opinoins.
And since we got off the subject and on to football...Let me say (and this is not a suckup) that being a Dallas Cowboy fan forever, I always disliked the Oilers. But they had 2 players that I always thought would look good with a STAR on there helmet. A linebacker named Gregg Bingham and a RB named Earl Campbell(sp). We (Cowboys) would probably have several more Super Bowl trophies if so. I love a running back that would just rather run over you than around you. Barry Sanders is fun to watch. But a DB's worst nightmare would have to be seeing big Earl coming thru the line and your the only thing between him and the endzone. There aren't many DB's that would or could stop that from being 6 points!
Makes me shudder to think about it.
Oh well, love coins and football!
Jon
I'm not really clear on the argument you were having on coins that USED to be Jack's and now upgraded. How is anyone supposed to try and keep track of that? And are you saying PCGS doesn't figure set ratings right or that the weights aren't right causing the calculations to be wrong. The programming can be fixed. The weights are opinoins. And we all know what they say about opinoins.>>>>>>>>>
if a gave the impression that ex jack coins ( or anybodys ) shouldnt be allowed to be counted at the new grade....that wasnt my intention....unfortunately there is no way for the old guys to be credited for what they did ( wayne miller and george bodway).....as they will drop like rocks thru the years allthough they had the same coins ...just now they are a few grades higher......thus GRADEFLATION........what this means to me is that the services are ranking coins.....slowly using up the zeors on the pop report......it was only 20 years ago when there wasnnt any 64 or 66.......just 63......65 gem....and 67.....suberb gem....then they went to splitin hairs....now they are really splittin them...and at ms 69 ....they are all split
And since we got off the subject and on to football...Let me say (and this is not a suckup) that being a Dallas Cowboy fan forever, I always disliked the Oilers. But they had 2 players that I always thought would look good with a STAR on there helmet. A linebacker named Gregg Bingham and a RB named Earl Campbell(sp). We (Cowboys) would probably have several more Super Bowl trophies if so. I love a running back that would just rather run over you than around you. Barry Sanders is fun to watch. But a DB's worst nightmare would have to be seeing big Earl coming thru the line and your the only thing between him and the endzone. There aren't many DB's that would or could stop that from being 6 points!
Makes me shudder to think about it.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i appreciate the compliments.........and i`ll tell ya earl was a load....it wont take you long to figure out who has tackled earl campbell more than anyone else....:-)..........now all of you now know why i am such a poor speller...:-)
ttyl
gregg
ps i always enjoyed playing the cowboys ( the old bunch...stauback...white....dorset.....pearson....newhouse......fitsgerald....nye.....too tall...howley ...jordan....waters and the rest of the crew...the new kids ........ehh ...if you know what i mean
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
excellent memory...otis darryl ,buts and nyself were all recruited by ron meyer...we were all from chicago and he picked all of us up and off to purdue we went ...it was a car load to say the least......you forgot gary danielson who played about 14 years in the biggs too and some others who got a year or 2 in.... like bronco kesser......tim racke.....rick sayers........
houston had the first pick where we picked john matuszak...we traded our # 2 to buffalo for al cowlings ( playing with him got me supenaed to the oj trial ...thanks a bunch al)...our 3 rd pick went to baltimore for a center named bill curry and i was the next pick which was housonn`s 1 st pick in the 4 th round.....as a linebacker.....coming to purdue who was # 1 when i signed there wasnt any room for any freshman as they were loaded.....i did see the only opportunity for me was to play defensive line...so i asked to be changed i was obliged and i played all my years next to butz in the defensive line........not being big enough to play d-line in the bigs....houston took a chance that they could switch me to linebacker ( it had been tried several times and nobody ever did it ) ....i dont really know what in the world they were thinking until i got to training camp...they were going to solve the middle linebacker problem with shear numbers...there were 15 of us for one postion...i was 14 th on the depth chart and when the first preseason game came around i guess they thought they would get rid of me fast so they started me the 1st game........and likewise for the next 12 years
and now you know the rest of the story
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Gregg
Great story on your position switch. Somebody must have known or seen something. Luck just doesn't happen very often in the biggs.
Dallas did just the opposite with Randy White. He was a linebacker at Maryland I believe, and Tom put him on the line. He turned out pretty good too. The "manster" came to play.
Jon
thanks
for the knid words..........
one thing though.....randy white was a defensive tackle at maryland
Randy White, Defensive Lineman
Maryland, 1971-1974
and after the cowboys drafted him they wanted him to play linebacker.....you see while listed at 265....he was more like 245.....well they tried him at linebacker ( thats why he has my number) all preseason in his first year and ....well..... it wasnt pretty....in fact it was down right terrible and looked like tex schram made a huge bust of his # 1 draft choice....the media was unbelievable....they were on tex like white on rice....randy just stunk up the place....well they decided he couldnt play linebacker and put him down on the ground again like he was in college.....and after 10 weeks of linebacking drills he was killin the o-line running around them like they werent even there..........he was everywhere........he put on a few pounds ( 25 ) and went straight to the hall of fame.....i can remember the match up ( we played dallas every year) in 1981 with our new rookie guard mike munchak ( who is one of the best ever..period)....randy put some stuff on him but the kid ......as you might expect........the next year the match up was more even.......and the next it wasnt close...munch had arrived and right into the hall of fame too.........keep in mind munch was a very quick guard.....and that is a dallas flex tackles nightmare because munch took away randy`s strenght...his quickness
and now you know the rest of the story
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Gregg
Another great story. I sure thought Randy was a backer at Maryland, but you should know. So he was quick, but not quick enough to play linebacker. Well, I remember he had that linebacker mentality. And I mean that as a compliment. All of the great ones had it... you...Buckus...Lambert....Singletary (who the cowboys passed on to get someone else that busted) and others. The cowboys used to stay good all of the time because of the great drafting ability. Then there was a period in there (I forget the exact years) that they stunk. I remember reading in the Dallas Cowboy Weekly once a list of people they passed on. It was a who's who list of great players. I remember Singletary because we were weak at middle backer because of it. As you and everyone knows the middle backer is the heart of the D. He calls the D and must read the O and make changes at the line. I can't even remember his name now. I think it was Bob something. He was OK, but nothing special and didn't have that backer mentality. They have some good backers now, especially one. Can't think of his name right now. I think I'm getting CRS. You know Can't Remember Sh*t. Anyway he has super speed and has that "mentality" that strikes fear in rb's and wr's coming over the middle. You can see it in his eyes. The Ravens have a tremendous backer in Ray something #52 I think. No one likes him because of his off field problems, but he CAN play.
I'm rambleing....sorry
Jon
P.S. I thought the NFL set of Morgans were yours alone, but I looked at the set and the comentary said there were several players. Who were the others or can you say. There was a baseball player who collected coins also. Andre Dawson I think. That man could hit!
tommy kramer of the vikings is a very good friend of mine....he split a few coins with me...when pcgs asked for a backround on the set several years ago....one other got translated into several.....( thats often happens to bios.......one bio i had .....i told the original writter that i was going to go to purdue and going into pre-med....4 or 5 writters later.....i was a doctor
i bought out tommy about 7 years ago ..so it was only me
and now you know the rest of the story....paul harvey...good-day
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language