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I don't agree with this grade.

crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
imageimage

This must be the nicest MS-61 on the planet! Most MS-61 coins I've seen look like they've been through the meat grinder, or have some distracting marks, blemishes, or just a very weak strike. This coin is quite beautiful, well stuck and has pretty good luster......I just don't get it?
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe it got the low grade because of weak strike? Or misaligned dies, LIBERTY looks stronger than I would have thought compared to all the other strike weakness.
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    stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm so sorry for your loss. Prayer sent.
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    joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful coin! I can see why it graded low ms- but a beautiful coin none the less!
    may the fonz be with you...always...
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    cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 6,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's quite obvious you got a few points deducted because of the tarnish.image
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    19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,503 ✭✭✭✭
    Quite simple actually: PCGS did not want to guarantee the grade at more than the cost of an MS61.
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    canadanzcanadanz Posts: 618 ✭✭
    I don't see anything that says 61 to me.. I'd say 63 at least. But what do I know?
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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,702 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't have guessed MS61, but...

    1- That's not a horrendous strike, but it's weak. Look at the buffalo's shoulder.
    2- The obverse fields seem much brighter than the portrait. Lustre should be present throughout, and if only the fields have it, that's often a grade killer. The obverse fields look to have slightly uneven lustre, too, with what look like drab, lifeless patches.

    It's a very attractive piece, but it's not perfect. I feel like seeing it in hand could easily sway me to much more strongly agree/disagree with the grade.
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    golfer72golfer72 Posts: 3,588
    I agree that that is not a 61. Disagree slightly on the strike however as it looks a tad weak. Having said that though that would not preclude a higher grade. I see weakly struck coins slabbed in high grades ad nauseam. The TPG's seem to ignore strike anymore.
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    golfer72golfer72 Posts: 3,588
    1- That's not a horrendous strike, but it's weak. Look at the buffalo's shoulder.
    2- The obverse fields seem much brighter than the portrait. Lustre should be present throughout, and if only the fields have it, that's often a grade killer. The obverse fields look to have slightly uneven lustre, too, with what look like drab, lifeless patches.

    It's a very attractive piece, but it's not perfect. I feel like seeing it in hand could easily sway me to much more strongly agree/disagree with the grade. >>

    I agree that these issues might knock it down from a 65 to 63, but 61. no way!
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimage
    imageimage

    Not the best date to compare, but here I have an MS-65 & an MS-62....Quite a big difference between the two. I know the 1934-d is known for bad strikes, but one is a MS-62, the 14-D is a 61.
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    DJCoinzDJCoinz Posts: 3,856 ✭


    << <i>I don't agree with this grade. >>

    Nor do I.
    aka Dan
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    ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    That 14-S looks MS63 and I wouldn't have been surprised if it were MS64. MS61 suggests some disagreement as to whether the coin is MS or AU. Sometimes a grade of 61 is a compromise grade.

    And by the way, I've NEVER seen a 34-D struck from such an eroded die like the 62 you showed. That's an amazing piece.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
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    SG1SG1 Posts: 121
    There looks to be the slightest bit of rub on the buffalo's hip and horn, also in the top of the Indian's hair. Nice Unc. otherwise and these get in PCGS MS-61 and 62 holders.
    Can't never Could!
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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 12,091 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a darn nice 14D nickel, no matter what. I'd venture to say that if you had posted it as a 63, most replies would have been 'nice coin' or 'great pickup', rather than trying explain the grade it got. Like Shamika said though, maybe the grader thought he saw slight rub or luster breaks, and bumped it up from 58 to 61 because of the eye appeal? I personally don't see any real rub in the photo posted; there is a slight grayness on the horn and hip, but I think that is more from the storage medium rather than circ wear.
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 25,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Flat strike at the center.
    All glory is fleeting.
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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If that is a 61...I'll take the whole set in 61 please!!!
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    GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
    Is there a counting wheel mark on the coin?
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    ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭
    My first guess was 62-63 due to excessive rub? Or is it a weak strike?
    image
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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 35,786 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was thinking MS-63 when I looked at it. There is some strike weakness and a mark on the Indian's braid.

    Perhaps they saw a rub on the Indian's cheek. There is a break in the toning there.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    DNADaveDNADave Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭✭✭
    same thing happened to me with this coin.
    image
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    TevaTeva Posts: 830 ✭
    Just curious but what did you think it should of graded?
    The toning looks atractive to me but it in fact could of been what held you back??
    Give the laziest man the toughest job and he will find the easiest way to get it done.
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Just curious but what did you think it should of graded?
    The toning looks attractive to me but it in fact could of been what held you back?? >>



    I really don't think anyone would complain if this coin was in a 63 holder, and that was the grade I was expecting at the least.... But what do I know.
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there a counting wheel mark on the coin? >>



    I don't think they had counting machines back then but I could be wrong.
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Is there a counting wheel mark on the coin? >>



    I don't think they had counting machines back then but I could be wrong. >>



    I sure don't see one, in fact it doesn't really have many marks at all...
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845 ✭
    .....i gotta agree with it having an A.U'ish quality that the graders compromised on and gave it a 61
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    FilamCoinsFilamCoins Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭

    How do you guys feel about this as a 61?

    image

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    fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    One grader said au one grader said ms = average ms61.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

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    ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Is there a counting wheel mark on the coin? >>



    I don't think they had counting machines back then but I could be wrong. >>



    Yes, this coin could have been through a counting machine, but there does not appear to be any counting machine marks on the coin based on the images.


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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>.....i gotta agree with it having an A.U'ish quality that the graders compromised on and gave it a 61 >>



    Over graded, I hate it when that happens...
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How do you guys feel about this as a 61?

    image >>



    I like that 61! Great luster and over all nice eye appeal....
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Is there a counting wheel mark on the coin? >>



    I don't think they had counting machines back then but I could be wrong. >>



    Yes, this coin could have been through a counting machine, but there does not appear to be any counting machine marks on the coin based on the images. >>





    How do you figure? Did they have mechanized counting machines in 1914 or even 1915 for that matter?
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    StubbyMcNumbthumbsStubbyMcNumbthumbs Posts: 1,259 ✭


    << <i>I'm so sorry for your loss. Prayer sent. >>




    That one made me laugh out loud. Bravo!
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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Just curious but what did you think it should of graded?
    The toning looks attractive to me but it in fact could of been what held you back?? >>



    I really don't think anyone would complain if this coin was in a 63 holder, and that was the grade I was expecting at the least.... But what do I know. >>



    What do you know CHD?
    It's your series (and I respect you opinion on buffs CHD :ThumbsUpimage) and if the grade doesn't fit than you must resubmit!

    I just hate some of the replys in this thread, there seems to be way to many people talking about something they know very little about.... "weak strike here or weak strike there", "counting wheel marks" and "rub here" or "rub there", blah, blah, BLAH! I say RUB ON THIS! image

    Rant over and I think 61 ain't even close.

    Cheers,
    Ray
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    JupitarCoinsJupitarCoins Posts: 2,595 ✭
    I thinks its a strong 62.
    Nice lookin coin!!!image
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    crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>How do you guys feel about this as a 61?

    image >>



    That looks like an super AU8 worth MS61 money to me. Great coin never the less
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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 12,091 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How do you figure? Did they have mechanized counting machines in 1914 or even 1915 for that matter? >>


    I know this is getting progressively offtopic, but I think one can safely assume that a counting machine mark could have been added to a coin well after the date of issue.....just because a coin was minted in 1914, doesn't mean it may not have gone through some type of mechanized counter years later. Some coins sit in bags, rolls, etc for many years before entering the channels of circulation. And there were a number of mechanized nickel machines in use prior to 1900....Wurlitzer and Mills Novelty issued various 5 cent music machines, slot machines, etc. that could impart mechanical damage to a newly minted nickel in 1914.
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    robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The OP coin looks more like a MS62, not a MS61... I don't think it will make much of a difference in price.
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    CratylusCratylus Posts: 871 ✭
    I'll leave my choice words out of the thread so as not to go off topic. Needless to say, I think PCGS hosed you.
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    Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll leave my choice words out of the thread so as not to go off topic. Needless to say, I think PCGS hosed you. >>



    I agree with you!! I would send it back in again in a few months.
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

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    golfer72golfer72 Posts: 3,588


    << <i>

    << <i>I'll leave my choice words out of the thread so as not to go off topic. Needless to say, I think PCGS hosed you. >>



    I agree with you!! I would send it back in again in a few months. >>

    Won't the grading fees and postage pretty much chew up any price differential if it grades a point or two higher? image
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimage

    Here are some images of the same coin when I bought it raw. This really is a beautiful coin, one of my favorite Buffs, and I have a lot of um..... Just look at how square and nice the rims are , and the planchet is gorgeous. Just a very nice coin all the way around...
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That sure is one crappy looking coin CHD. image
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That sure is one crappy looking coin CHD. image >>



    Thanks....I love the look of this crappy MS-61....
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know what you are saying sent this one in and rec a MS64. CRAZY image




    imageimage


    Hoard the keys.
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    kurtdogkurtdog Posts: 1,456


    << <i>Quite simple actually: PCGS did not want to guarantee the grade at more than the cost of an MS61. >>

    That's not grading, it's guaranteeing. image

    Tell you the truth, these TPGs don't know what they're doing from one minute to the next, their marketing just has everybody brain-stuffed into believing they do because they know that's the game we all love to play. That coin, from a technical standpoint, alone, is an easy MS63-64. As far as the soft strike goes, strike doesn't play in the technical grade.
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Quite simple actually: PCGS did not want to guarantee the grade at more than the cost of an MS61. >>

    That's not grading, it's guaranteeing. image

    Tell you the truth, these TPGs don't know what they're doing from one minute to the next, their marketing just has everybody brain-stuffed into believing they do because they know that's the game we all love to play. That coin, from a technical standpoint, alone, is an easy MS63-64. As far as the soft strike goes, strike doesn't play in the technical grade. >>



    image Very well putimage
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    kurtdogkurtdog Posts: 1,456


    << <i>

    << <i>How do you guys feel about this as a 61?

    image >>



    That looks like an super AU8 worth MS61 money to me. Great coin never the less >>


    image
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    TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's one I once owned that I had bought raw and sent to Pcgs(expecting a 66)It came back 64.Most likely your coin was held back by the muted luster as was my coin.Your coin is definately better than 61 as far as the technical grade goes and I love the look of it.I eventually sold my coin for about 2X MS-66 money while still in a 64 holderimage

    imageimage
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The strike on this coin is not "soft" it's a great strike. I have handeled many Buffalo Nickel's in my long life. Take a good look and compare this Buff to most any other and you will see, full head on the Buff, full knot on the braid of Iron tail, the ridge line on the buffalo's back is comparable to most type 2 buffs, the rims are full and square, split tail, split rim between LIBERTY. These are the details I look for on a strike for Buffalo Nickel's....
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Here's one I once owned that I had bought raw and sent to Pcgs(expecting a 66)It came back 64.Most likely your coin was held back by the muted luster as was my coin.Your coin is definately better than 61 as far as the technical grade goes and I love the look of it.I eventually sold my coin for about 2X MS-66 money while still in a 64 holderimage

    imageimage >>



    MAN!! That's one GORGEOUS Buffalo Nickel! No way is that a 64 image NO WAY!!!!
    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

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