<< <i>I dont profess to know how to grade Buffalos, but the 24-S seems to have some significant wear over Liberty, so much so the rim is worn down. Is that a light strike, instead? >>
Pretty much all of the Buffalo nickels from the twentys with mint marks D & S are weaker strikes, the great strikes in these years with great luster will bring BIG money....
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Members I have done business with: Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
I bought a small deal of 4 PCGS Slabs taht turned out to be counterfeit. 2 were the Buffalos that were part of this thread, and 2 were Peace Dollars (which were real coins but way overgraded 22-D in 65 that was a 63, and a 260S that was at best a 64). Thanks to Lee Sanders of Heritage, I did not get burned, but someone did to the tune of several thousand dollars.
These counterfeits are exceptional. They are using real PCGS plastic, so they fit into any other PCGS slab. The inserts are almost perfect. The printing is crisp and the color is almost perfect. They are dot matrixed printed, so the pattern under a loupe is different than that of a good PCGS slab.
Be very aware of these types of coins. Use your first instinct on the grade, not that of the slab.
PCGS is aware of the counterfeits and is working very hard to put an end to this, but watch out!
So just to clarify, the last set of photo's are what happens to the fake coins inside the faked slabs when the slab is cracked....The fake coins are 2 piece composites....Is this correct?
The slabs are real PCGS slabs, but the counterfeiters opened them and put the bogus coins in them, added bogus inserts and resealed them. It makes them look like real coins in real holders.....which is the point of this thread.
These coins came to me in the slabs as pictured, and certainly looked real to me, but the grades seemed off. I bought them from a source that I've bought from before. That person was the person who was scammed. I don't want anyone scammed, hence this thread.
WATCH OUT when a deal is too good or the coins just don't look right.
<< <i>The slabs are real PCGS slabs, but the counterfeiters opened them and put the bogus coins in them, added bogus inserts and resealed them. It makes them look like real coins in real holders.....which is the point of this thread.
These coins came to me in the slabs as pictured, and certainly looked real to me, but the grades seemed off. I bought them from a source that I've bought from before. That person was the person who was scammed. I don't want anyone scammed, hence this thread.
WATCH OUT when a deal is too good or the coins just don't look right. >>
I very much appreciate this tread....
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
21DWalker Yes real coins cut in half and pieced back together. Remember you can't see the edge in the holder, so it's not obvious at all, in fact it's impossible to tell.
I am curious how long it took you to tell - and were you suspect when you first received coins
or were you in the process of resubmitting?
the same thing happened to MANOFCOINS when he purchased a MS65 1932-D?S quarter on eBay for a great price and suspicions grew until resubmitted for regrade - fell apart at PCGS
<< <i>those prong holders are going to start being seen in a new light >>
This is a great point, especially after reading this thread. This is not new, it's an old practice by crooks in the business, but now in respectable holders with no edge view is an eye opener for me.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Perhaps he had faith in the slabs? Perhaps you or others here have coins like this that are not as obvious. Nahhh. (sarcasm) What scumbag could possible be smart enough to just push the mint mark and not the grade as well? (more sarcasm)
Wake up and smell the coffee.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
Just to clarify, each individual coin is actually the face of two separate coins put together. The 1924-S is a 1924-P obverse (back lathed off) with an S-mint reverse (front lathed off) and then sandwhiched together in a genuine PCGS holder with a counterfiet tag having a legitimate serial number.
What really surprises me is why would the perpetrator not use a mint state 1924-P with a mint state S-mint reverse? They could have produced a 1924-S coin that was an "unquestionable" MS65 and easily sold if for far far more money. And what REALLY concerns me is that there are no doubt other fraudulant pieces waiting to be discovered.
I'm just going to say that if the coins you collect aren't known to you by verifiable diagnostics on both sides, then perhaps you should slow down a bit.
The counterfeiters are always improving... this is amazing, but not unexpected. For all who are enthralled by tarnish, do you really think that this too has not been perfected? Premiums for tarnish is fool's money wasted. TPG's and FPG's not withstanding, those who put serious money into coins had better learn to grade, learn their series, and above all, stay tuned into this forum and others for the latest scams. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>Wow, they were faced off in a lathe. And its much easier than you think. >>
Yes, it is very easy. I am an excellent machinist but not unusual. (you could hire 10 like me at the union hall) and I make 2 headed quarters that are hard to see the joint after gluing together. With a slab to cover the edge, undetectable. I guess I won't post how to do it but it is basic precision machining. BTW, my work looks much better than that posted here.
This scam is only do-able when the mintmark is on the reverse and there are easily available similar grade coins at lower prices. We've seen this before with Morgan Dollars. If I knew the buffalo series better to realize how much a 64 in a 24-S and 27-S were worth, I might have figured this out. Watch out for a 26-S, I would think the scammers would be working on that.
In this case, I would think they could have picked some better coins--real 64s that would have no questions about the grade.
Is anyone who knows the series able to tell what year the S reverses are from? I'd guess 29, 30 or 31 based on the price guide. Obviously the obverses are from a P or D coin, most likely the less expensive P.
Comments
<< <i>I dont profess to know how to grade Buffalos, but the 24-S seems to have some significant wear over Liberty, so much so the rim is worn down. Is that a light strike, instead? >>
Pretty much all of the Buffalo nickels from the twentys with mint marks D & S are weaker strikes, the great strikes in these years with great luster will bring BIG money....
second one is a EF-45
LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
I bought a small deal of 4 PCGS Slabs taht turned out to be counterfeit. 2 were the Buffalos that were part of this thread, and 2 were Peace Dollars (which were real coins but way overgraded 22-D in 65 that was a 63, and a 260S that was at best a 64). Thanks to Lee Sanders of Heritage, I did not get burned, but someone did to the tune of several thousand dollars.
These counterfeits are exceptional. They are using real PCGS plastic, so they fit into any other PCGS slab. The inserts are almost perfect. The printing is crisp and the color is almost perfect. They are dot matrixed printed, so the pattern under a loupe is different than that of a good PCGS slab.
Be very aware of these types of coins. Use your first instinct on the grade, not that of the slab.
PCGS is aware of the counterfeits and is working very hard to put an end to this, but watch out!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>The fakes are 2 piece composites >>
Where is the seam? On the edge, I assume?
-Paul
They are also too thick when they are together. You can't tell that in the slab, but the whole thing would weigh too much.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Remember these coins are slabbed in PCGS holders (genuine) >>
This is what trough me off! Did pcgs grade these two pieces??? Or, are the slabs fake?
These coins came to me in the slabs as pictured, and certainly looked real to me, but the grades seemed off. I bought them from a source that I've bought from before. That person was the person who was scammed. I don't want anyone scammed, hence this thread.
WATCH OUT when a deal is too good or the coins just don't look right.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>The slabs are real PCGS slabs, but the counterfeiters opened them and put the bogus coins in them, added bogus inserts and resealed them. It makes them look like real coins in real holders.....which is the point of this thread.
These coins came to me in the slabs as pictured, and certainly looked real to me, but the grades seemed off. I bought them from a source that I've bought from before. That person was the person who was scammed. I don't want anyone scammed, hence this thread.
WATCH OUT when a deal is too good or the coins just don't look right. >>
I very much appreciate this tread....
I call that bogus.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
or were you in the process of resubmitting?
the same thing happened to MANOFCOINS when he purchased a MS65 1932-D?S quarter on eBay for a great price
and suspicions grew until resubmitted for regrade - fell apart at PCGS
<< <i>those prong holders are going to start being seen in a new light >>
This is a great point, especially after reading this thread. This is not new, it's an old practice by crooks in the business, but now in respectable holders with no edge view is an eye opener for me.
They are dangerous. Those that think they are not will get fooled. Many dealers missed these.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Anyway thanks for the great information.
Ken
<< <i>Did this not bother you to begin with?
Ken >>
Perhaps he had faith in the slabs? Perhaps you or others here have coins like this that are not as obvious. Nahhh. (sarcasm) What scumbag could possible be smart enough to just push the mint mark and not the grade as well? (more sarcasm)
Wake up and smell the coffee.
I imagine that if this keeps up that there could be a market meltdown in these classic late 19th and 20th Century coins!
<< <i>The fakes are 2 piece composites >>
Where was the edge/join line hiding on them?
<< <i>I'm glad they haven't really begun to counterfeit Bust coins.
I imagine that if this keeps up that there could be a market meltdown in these classic late 19th and 20th Century coins! >>
The meltdown will be the slabs the premiums bring, not the coins.
EAC 6024
What really surprises me is why would the perpetrator not use a mint state 1924-P with a mint state S-mint reverse? They could have produced a 1924-S coin that was an "unquestionable" MS65 and easily sold if for far far more money. And what REALLY concerns me is that there are no doubt other fraudulant pieces waiting to be discovered.
<< <i>I'm glad they haven't really begun to counterfeit Bust coins.
I imagine that if this keeps up that there could be a market meltdown in these classic late 19th and 20th Century coins! >>
Were you being facetious, or did you mean Capped Bust coins? There are already a great many counterfeit Draped Bust and Flowing Hair bust coins.
This made my stomach hurt when I saw this. The slab and insert are the best fake combination that I've seen.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Thanks for this thread!!
KP
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Broken record: Slabs without online pictures for verification are worthless. The market will figure it out soon. >>
Broken record retort that you never answer: What about the millions of slabs already out there?
<< <i>Wow, they were faced off in a lathe. And its much easier than you think. >>
Yes, it is very easy. I am an excellent machinist but not unusual. (you could hire 10 like me at the union hall) and I make 2 headed quarters that are hard to see the joint after gluing together. With a slab to cover the edge, undetectable. I guess I won't post how to do it but it is basic precision machining. BTW, my work looks much better than that posted here.
--Jerry
In this case, I would think they could have picked some better coins--real 64s that would have no questions about the grade.
Is anyone who knows the series able to tell what year the S reverses are from? I'd guess 29, 30 or 31 based on the price guide. Obviously the obverses are from a P or D coin, most likely the less expensive P.
--Jerry