Anyone know why local dealers only have dipped coins?

JamesM · November 30, 2010 7:28AM

I made my rounds today and stopped by a few local shops, but they only had over dipped and just low quality coins.
They seam to have little to no graded coins and anything raw has spent what looks like an hour in full concentration dip.
On the plus side the graded coins I did see at one shop had fair prices, and every shop owner i have met is nice and knowledgeable.

TomB · November 30, 2010 7:30AM

Because non-dipped coins sell first?

sTONER · November 30, 2010 7:31AM

because their dip-chits,

yellowkid · November 30, 2010 7:36AM

I would think most local type B&M's would cater to a more....generic? group of customers and shiny sells better.

roadrunner · November 30, 2010 7:37AM

Anyone know why local dealers only have dipped coins?

Because most anything that comes in the front door gets dipped.

roadrunner

JamesM · November 30, 2010 7:39AM

<< Anyone know why local dealers only have dipped coins?

Because most anything that comes in the front door gets dipped.

roadrunner >>

Clearly but why? Can it really help sell a coin to remove years of improvement and layers of material from a coin?

ambro51 · November 30, 2010 7:45AM

Ive noticed that in a local shop also.

raycyca · November 30, 2010 7:52AM

Some of the B&M dealers are old school. They think the buyers WANT bright and shiny objects. They don't care if they are destroying history as long as they make a buck. Another possibility is that the dealer knows what they have. Then, they go through the dealer's computer system and sell it there as they may pay a higher price for natural coins.

PerryHall · November 30, 2010 7:57AM

<< I would think most local type B&M's would cater to a more....generic? group of customers and shiny sells better. >>

Bingo. Most collectors want their silver coins to look like silver rather than be tarnished. I remember one dealer showing me an original heavily toned silver dollar. He said that he hated to dip it but if he didn't, he wouldn't be able to sell it.

Bochiman · November 30, 2010 8:00AM

<< Some of the B&M dealers are old school. They think the buyers WANT bright and shiny objects. They don't care if they are destroying history as long as they make a buck. Another possibility is that the dealer knows what they have. Then, they go through the dealer's computer system and sell it there as they may pay a higher price for natural coins. >>

I talked to my locals guys about this and most of them have walk-in clients that only want the "brilliant" white stuff. They don't know better and since it sells for them, they do it.
Some of the dealers know the money on nice toners and will take the nice ones and sell outside of their normal shelf in the store.

I was trying to hunt down toned Roosevelts when they told me this and it hasn't changed 2 years later

WTCG · November 30, 2010 8:05AM

<< I would think most local type B&M's would cater to a more....generic? group of customers and shiny sells better. >>

That is probably the most correct answer. The better coins tend to sell faster so whatever is left and hasn't sold is what you see in the shop displays.

JamesM · November 30, 2010 8:05AM

Its really just sad, I wish I could get a chance at this stuff before it happens. They had a lot of ms-64-67's I just wonder what these would sell for undipped.

"That is probably the most correct answer. The better coins tend to sell faster so whatever is left and hasn't sold is what you see in the shop displays."

in this case its not true I could smell the dip last time I was in the shop from the front of the shop, and they all have no coins out of hundreds that are not dipped. I am sure they sell good coins out one door and the others to the guys who think a polished EF is a proof.

291fifth · November 30, 2010 8:16AM

One reason is that many local brick & mortar dealers offer so little that, in the age of internet savvy sellers they only get offered the dreck. The "good stuff" goes to the buyers who pay what the coins are worth.

And, yes, "white " coins do sell better.

Look! Here comes a widow with her late husband's collection ...

RWB · November 30, 2010 8:21AM

As noted above - most people (and crows) like shiny things.

WTCG · November 30, 2010 8:25AM

Another statement I can add to coin dipping is that as slabbed common coins are concerned it is true that white, shiny coins are more in demand and sell better than toned examples. Arguably the largest volume silver dollar TPG submitter in the business dips the vast majority of the coins he submits for grading. He can always get more for a white slabbed Morgan versus a toned slabbed Morgan. Of course we're talking about your typical toners, not those "monster" rainbow coins.

If richly original toned coins were the better sellers then NCS wouldn't exist.

WTCG · November 30, 2010 8:30AM

<< Look! Here comes a widow with her late husband's collection ... >>

Have you yourself ever personally examined those collections brought in by the widows? If you have you'll know that the overwhelming vast majority of those "collections" are nothing more than an unorganized hodgepodge of miscellaneous junk that is at best worth melt. Very rarely do those "collections" contain anything worth mention.

AMRC · November 30, 2010 8:36AM

Fact is many, many times they are merely "re"-dipping. You assume they did that to the coins.

customroll · November 30, 2010 8:41AM

...because Rico has brain washed them all.

Walkerguy21D · November 30, 2010 8:49AM

Depends on where you live and who your B&M is.....my local B&M, within walking distance, has $half mill+ of certified material on hand most of the time. But guess what? Most of the local traffic is interested in bullion and modern mint stuff. He buys and sells the 'good stuff' at shows.

BillJones · November 30, 2010 9:03AM

There are a couple of reasons:

1. White silver coins sell better than toned coins do. You might not believe this, but most collectors what their silver coins white even though they are aware that the coins have been dipped. I tried in vain to get more than a few of my customers to change their tastes.

2. In the current market nice material is in short supply. That means that we mostly see "the dregs" for sale these days. Since most local B&M guys only have run of the mill stuff, their inventory is going to reflect the current market. Their good stuff sells quickly.

291fifth · November 30, 2010 9:05AM

<< 

<< Look! Here comes a widow with her late husband's collection ... >>

Have you yourself ever personally examined those collections brought in by the widows? If you have you'll know that the overwhelming vast majority of those "collections" are nothing more than an unorganized hodgepodge of miscellaneous junk that is at best worth melt. Very rarely do those "collections" contain anything worth mention. >>

Right, most of those collections do contain little more than low end junk, but, every now and then, a good one does come in. I've been in coin shops several times when a "good one" did walk in the door. In one such case the dealer literally rushed out the door as I was leaving (something I'd never seen him do before) in order to "help" the lady carry the collection in. I strongly suspect he was afraid that I would say something to the woman once I was out of his store.

Back when I used to collect stamps I was able to predict the quality of a collection by just looking at the albums it was contained in. The dealer whose store I frequented could do the same. If someone came in with low end albums you could be fairly certain it would contain little more than packet junk, often lots and lots of packet junk. However, if someone came in with the collection in Lindner albums ...

cmerlo1 · November 30, 2010 9:09AM

I usually see the over-dipped hubcaps in antique malls and flea markets. I knew a dealer who sold coins in a flea market, and he sold more of the cleaned ones, because the people that went there weren't really collectors, and just wanted something flashy with shine.

Not sure with the actual coin shops- it could be that with precious metals prices the way they are, a lot of non-collectors are dumping their inheritances, and shining them up real nice before doing so, hoping for a higher price... I did see this exact situation in the B&M here the other day- someone brought in a bunch of junk 90%, and had polished all of them.

Bigrig52 · November 30, 2010 9:20AM

Thats because like always the coin dealers are out to rip everyone off..

Unknown · November 30, 2010 9:22AM

This content has been removed.

JamesM · November 30, 2010 9:30AM

<< I don't know about your local B&M but at my local B&M you will find that right next to the tables where the stacks of blast white silver coins are being stored/shown are all the chemicals/cleaners and assorted tools that did the job. TRUTH

>>

now that is funny take a photo!

mrpotatoheadd · November 30, 2010 9:34AM

<< Thats because like always the coin dealers are out to rip everyone off.. >>

If you go with the most frequent opinion expressed here so far- that the dealer's customers like bright coins- how is providing them a ripoff?

WTCG · November 30, 2010 9:51AM

<< Thats because like always the coin dealers are out to rip everyone off.. >>

Time for you to prove two points:

1. You are not a forum troll.

2. Your statement with hard facts. How are all dealers out only to rip eople off?

Start typing. We're waiting...

Greeniejr · November 30, 2010 9:53AM

It all depends on the B+M shop. These days people are more concerned with coming in and buying bullion than rare coins. Though our rare coin business is thriving as well. As far as displays, I sell more "telemarketer specials" (meaning either dipped out shiny Morgans or scrubbed to hell and toned Morgans that come in in those felt packages) for $21-22 than I do nice original circ pre-21s that sell for $24. Working at a B+M that caters to all levels of collectors, it is often impossible to reason people into buying nice coins. They are impressed by shiny things.
I totally agree with Wei. 95% of what walks in with a little old widow is junk and takes a lot of time and effort to deal with. Often times it is telemarketer crap that they bought from reader's digest or the Sunday paper.

mrpotatoheadd · November 30, 2010 10:03AM

<< Start typing. We're waiting... >>

Doing a forum search using the keyword "dealers" by author "Bigrig52", it's pretty clear where the poster stands on the topic of coin dealers. At least he's consistent in his posting.

JamesM · November 30, 2010 10:20AM

<< It all depends on the B+M shop. These days people are more concerned with coming in and buying bullion than rare coins. Though our rare coin business is thriving as well. As far as displays, I sell more "telemarketer specials" (meaning either dipped out shiny Morgans or scrubbed to hell and toned Morgans that come in in those felt packages) for $21-22 than I do nice original circ pre-21s that sell for $24. Working at a B+M that caters to all levels of collectors, it is often impossible to reason people into buying nice coins. They are impressed by shiny things.
I totally agree with Wei. 95% of what walks in with a little old widow is junk and takes a lot of time and effort to deal with. Often times it is telemarketer crap that they bought from reader's digest or the Sunday paper. >>

I have worked in sales for a large part of my life so I fully understand(not coins).

I just wonder why they do not have a few nice coins, I get that dead inventory is worth less then nothing because it costs you to have/store/show/ect.

So in the end I guess I reluctantly will say I understand why the dealers do what they do. But its still sad because 1) people who see every coin in the shop clean may be likely to clean every coin they own 2) I have to wait for shows to see anything good.

darktone · November 30, 2010 10:23AM

As stated the whimsy ones sell better. Also small dealers usually sell the good stuff to larger or wholesale dealers for a quick profit.

morgansforever · November 30, 2010 10:24AM

One of the local B&M's here, always has a jar of EZ-EST in the back near the sink.
Guy is like a dipaholic, everything in his case is white, and all are gems

Guess his feeling white sells better, I don't buy em.

mrpotatoheadd · November 30, 2010 10:30AM

<< I just wonder why they do not have a few nice coins, I get that dead inventory is worth less then nothing because it costs you to have/store/show/ect. >>

I would guess that, contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe, lots of dealers actually do know how to run their shops and attempt to minimize the amount of slow selling merchandise they have on hand. And if "nice coins" don't sell regularly to their typical walk-in customers, they'll sell the coins elsewhere. I don't think there's any solution to this "problem".

pennyannie · November 30, 2010 10:41AM

<< 

<< Look! Here comes a widow with her late husband's collection ... >>

Have you yourself ever personally examined those collections brought in by the widows? If you have you'll know that the overwhelming vast majority of those "collections" are nothing more than an unorganized hodgepodge of miscellaneous junk that is at best worth melt. Very rarely do those "collections" contain anything worth mention. >>

I was in my least favorite coin shop a while back. A elderly lady that looked to be in her 80's had been to the safety deposit box and she had a few baggies of IKE's, quite few 1921 morgans and a stack of mid 50's proof set. They offered her a buck eack on the IKE's and about 10 bucks on the proof sets. Then she laid a few envolopes with about 30 of the most gorgeous Texas Commens i have ever seen. These were pristine been locked awaY for decades from the looks of things. I am pretty sure they offered and bought them for 20 bucks a piece. They said they usually get about 30 bucks a pop for those. I did have a look aT THEm and could see the reaming she was about to get on those.

I have seen older people bring in rolls of unc carson city morgans and unc walkers but most of the time i have only seen junk.

morgansforever · November 30, 2010 10:53AM

<< I did have a look aT THEm and could see the reaming she was about to get on those. >>

I too witnessed a reaming of biblical proportion. Lady walked in with 4 62ish common $20 Saints.
Gold was around $900 then, she walked out with $1500. I had to bite my tounge hard.
I remember clearly what he said when she walked out, "they think I'm paying them".
On the flip, she should have done a little research, she didn't have to give em up.

FullStepJeffs · November 30, 2010 12:10PM

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but... it's very interesting to me to read the comments in this post. I sometimes wonder why more dealers don't frequent these forums. This string should finally answer that burning question.

I wonder why it's great to post our current rip with much fanfare while stringing up every dealer who makes a deal with their own money up front. There is always the story of the little old lady getting ripped by the big bad dealer... it must happen daily. But if you count them up, there are far more rips being done by forum members on dealers... and that must be okay, right?

And now to answer the op's burning question... why do local dealers only have dipped coins?

1. Because dealers buy everything that walks in the door... and it takes two to make that decision... the dealer and the seller.

2. High quality collector coins last about 5 minutes from the time they enter the front door to the time they either leave, are permenently impounded in the dealers personal inventory or sold to select buyers. If you're only a part-time buyer, that the dealer doesn't know or have your want list on file, then why wuld the dealer show you the best stuff?

I could go on and on about why you only see the dregs... but something tells me the only answer most want to believe is the dealer cleans them all... that's got to be the right answer, right?

On a more serious note... as someone who volunteers at a coin shop to learn the business from the other side of the street, in the last month, what do you think was the ratio between nice coins and dregs walking in the door? 3 very nice coins... and probably 10,000 or more dipped or otherwise pieces of $h!t including an 1893-CC Morgan VAM-2 that looks like someone used a 1/8 drill bit to add at least 3 small holes in the obverse cheek... we call it measles... And the dealer... he bought them all.

For anyone intersted in the 93-CC, I'll be more than happy to send you a pic and price tomorrow... the question is... is there any one among you that would buy this coin? It's okay... the dealer did... he spend his money on it.

Peace to all!

Steve

Rampage · November 30, 2010 12:12PM

Actually, it is interesting to read this OPs post since he/she is contemplating dipping his 1885CC that came back from NGC as Unc Details, Improperly Cleaned.

fcloud · November 30, 2010 12:17PM

I think it depends on the area. Many people in the Midwest only like white. That's why I originally only liked white, as that is all that was available. The first dealer I worked closely with in the mid 1970's dipped every single uncirculated coin. I didn't know any better and thought that was just the way it is. Now I like to keep them just as I buy them. Sometimes white; sometimes light color; and sometimes toned.

ricko · November 30, 2010 10:57PM

Just to clarify things a bit. I have done extensive experiments with dips on non-collector coins. I did this to learn about tarnish and what dipping does to metal surfaces. I do not dip the coins in my collection - rather I seek out those that have been well preserved. That being said, I am well versed in both 'bad' dipping and that which is done to remove gunk/crapola from nice coins. Unlike many here, who merely parrot what they see written, I have gained an in-depth knowledge regarding tarnish and other surface conditions of coins. I understand why experts accept some dipping and reject other types. Those 'collector lemmings' who follow the trends and pick up preferences of other collectors to trumpet as their own, are very obvious in their lack of knowledge when they post things like "I would never, ever buy a dipped coin" etc etc etc.... Oh well, to each his/her own. However, I do wish people would learn more and spout less. Cheers, RickO

Lakesammman · November 30, 2010 11:49PM

Because they can't afford to inventory nice original coins.

Bigrig52 · December 1, 2010 12:02AM

<< 

<< Thats because like always the coin dealers are out to rip everyone off.. >>

Time for you to prove two points:

1. You are not a forum troll.

2. Your statement with hard facts. How are all dealers out only to rip eople off?

Start typing. We're waiting... >>

They say never clean a coin with anything,at least thats what i was told..Take a coin to a dealer and most tell you the coin was cleaned anyways than offer you crap for it,a week later you see it in their case for 5 times what they offer you..This is my oppion not saying all of the dealers are like this but just most of them from experience..I did a test once by taking a slabbed coin that was graded AU by NGC from the slab to a few dealers and they say it was only FINE.Now who is wrong....I guess the grading company was wrong

PerryHall · December 1, 2010 12:05AM

In some cases people inherit coins and clean them up before they sell them to their local coin dealer thinking that they will get a higher offer.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 1, 2010 12:25AM

Most dealers work less for more because of those who cannot hear or see. Chemicals however, are used widely in an "industry" which plaques a simple "hobby".

raycyca · December 4, 2010 5:14AM

I have a dealer in Dover, DE that is very fair. He looks at the coins and points out the valuable ones and takes time to let the person know why they are valuable. So does one of his partners, I haven't seen the others. He has had 09-S VDBs come in, paid good money, slabbed them and sold them very reasonably and quickly. Yes, the good coins go to major shows or dealers, unless I or another person lets him know what they want. He does have some dipped coins, but, almost every one is done by the seller, hoping for a bigger sale. Ray and Tim are great people to deal with. Sold them over 20 pounds of sterling and they paid me more than $2000 than my Mom was offered in Massachusetts. Needless to say, I buy and sell or look there often.

scottgardener · December 4, 2010 9:07AM

Part of the problem is that the really good coins are RARE. Probability mechanics works heavily against the usual customer coming in to sell their collection; more likely than not, it won't be that rare. (That said, an everyday 1881-S Morgan dollar is still nicer without a bad polishing job.) These same probability mechanics works against the available inventory at most brick-and-mortar shops. I'm sure they'd love to have in stock better coins, but they don't routinely get offered them, or the cost of going onto high end exchanges and carrying such inventory may be itself cost-prohibitive when one considers the local turnover rates--most people walking in the door at a typical shop location won't be able to walk out with a $3000 MS65 Saint or an $8000 Matte Proof Lincoln that day.

I do have to wonder, if you're finding a particular shop engaging in seedy activity such as ripping off the elderly, and if you're finding that all they carry is dreck, then why bother going in? Is it like watching the scene of an auto collision, in which you don't want to watch but can't help but look?

I'm lucky, as there's several good shops in Dallas. For higher end items, Dallas Rare Coins, just south of the Galleria, tends to carry some key date Morgans, a smattering of gold, and some other nice items at any given time. They also offer the best trade-in on bullion. For smaller items in the $50 to $500 range, Lone Star Mint usually on any given day has some nice items--at last check a good inventory of PCGS-graded commemoratives and raw early Lincoln cents. They also will have some nice raw gold showing up. But, the best stocked place is in Garland, a seemingly innocuous location beside a Big Lots; Dallas Gold and Silver has a huge inventory of graded silver and tends to have a reasonable supply of gold as well, both graded and raw.

djdilliodon · December 4, 2010 9:16AM

I have 3 dealers local to me that i have a great relationship with. They kindly put to the side all the tarnished franklins, washingtons, and mint sets they get in. They even save me full coin sets in albums that have toned.

shorecoll · December 4, 2010 9:27AM

There were a couple of dealers here who literally polished every single silver coin they put in their cases, swore that's what their customers wanted. They always gave me nasty looks because I stayed about 10 feet away from their tables at the local shows...it just made me too sad. The really bad thing is these people ususally got first shot at the local old collections and you had to be quick to get things before they ruined them.

ARCO · December 4, 2010 9:43AM

<< I made my rounds today and stopped by a few local shops, but they only had over dipped and just low quality coins.
They seam to have little to no graded coins and anything raw has spent what looks like an hour in full concentration dip.
On the plus side the graded coins I did see at one shop had fair prices, and every shop owner i have met is nice and knowledgeable. >>

Perfect counter point to those who claim that Ebay is nothing but trash. 95% of all numismatic offerings are trash (either low grade or cleaned), including the brick and mortar stores. Most coins have been ruined, cleaned and "shined up", and no matter where you find them, 95% of what is offered is junk.

Most brick and mortars can only survive by what the locals bring to the stores, and most locals own junk.

Anyone know why local dealers only have dipped coins?

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