Is PCGS doing anything about the counterfeit slab issue?
Barry
Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
The original concept of PCGS was so coins could be bought sight unseen based on their certification. We all know how that worked out, but now there's a new problem with pretty good quality counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs.
What can PCGS do and what are they currently doing to protect their company?
What can PCGS do and what are they currently doing to protect their company?
0
Comments
I have no doubt this is on PCGS's radar. But I don't see a lot happening. They're grappling with doctoring issues that directly affect their bottom line, and these issues are fairly consuming.
I'm not saying PCGS is turning a blind eye to the counterfeit slab problem. It just doesn't seem to be near the top of the list. Too bad because IMO counterfeiting can hurt this business/hobby more seriously than doctoring.
Lance.
So far as I’m concerned these counterfeit coins and slabs pose a greater threat to the hobby than coin doctoring.
EAC 6024
Grading is a subjective opinion. Your pcgsvf35 maybe a xf40 to you all day while I can think its only a vf30 to my standards.
Thats just grading.
Now with the counterfeit slabs-at any type of show, if one walks up to a dealer with a 1916-d dime in a "pcgs" slab that says ms63 on it, and offers it to the dealer for say $5,000- there is almost NO dealer that would turn down such an offer.
Maybe the dealer will look at the coin for 10 seconds to look at eye appeal, but the main thought in his head is wow Im getting a steal!
maybe even if the dealer spent the extra 2 minutes on the coin he MIGHT have been able to notice something that was slightly off, but hes no expert on 16-d's and hes relying on "pcgs" saying its real.
Very very scary...
<< <i>What about all you fellers that say focus on the coin -not the holder ? >>
For that to work you have to be able to spot counterfeit coins. With the early Chinese stuff, that was fairly easy for an advanced collector, but now the damn Chinese are getting better at their nefarious craft, and it’s getting scarier.
I have ZERO TOLERANCE for Chinese counterfeits and those who knowingly sell them. They should all go to jail for a long, long time.
<< <i>
<< <i>What about all you fellers that say focus on the coin -not the holder ? >>
For that to work you have to be able to spot counterfeit coins. With the early Chinese stuff, that was fairly easy for an advanced collector, but now the damn Chinese are getting better at their nefarious craft, and it’s getting scarier.
I have ZERO TOLERANCE for Chinese counterfeits and those who knowingly sell them. They should all go to jail for a long, long time. >>
This is what I was getting at, soon you wont be able to tell.
EAC 6024
Is anything real? What's next fake counterfeits?
<< <i>I remember David Hall saying they are working on something to eliminate the issue when it was brought up around the time secure plus came out. >>
........PCGS has had more then ample time to put forth the technology and money to address this problem -
it has been a topic here on these boards for years. If PCGS is not on the edge of unveiling a brand new holder ,
.......... then it's time to worry .
I never understood: Why doesn't PCGS just have a high quality photo of each coin graded in an online data base, for us to compare coins in hand with the coin actually graded.
It seems this could have been done a long time ago already........unless I am missing something.......
(editted for spelling)
......I collect old stuff......
<< <i>I never understood: Why doesn't PCGS just have a high quality photo of each coin graded in an online data base, for us to compare coins in hand with the coin actually graded.
It seems this could have been done a long time ago already........unless I am missing something.......
(editted for spelling) >>
NGC does that already, (though I have not looked at enough images to see how good the quality is) and I hope that PCGS will very soon.
I feel that, while it wont stop the counterfeiting, it is the best, somewhat practical defense and means of giving potential buyers the ability to verify the authenticity of coins before they acquire them. The images need to be excellent and easily and widely available to the public.
I also suggest that buyers deal with well known, knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers, who will be less likely to end up with counterfeits, and who will take care of the buyer, on the off chance that there is an authenticity problem.
<< <i>I also suggest that buyers deal with well known, knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers, who will be less likely to end up with counterfeits, and who will take care of the buyer, on the off chance that there is an authenticity problem. >>
Are you saying that we should avoid eBay sellers from China?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I also suggest that buyers deal with well known, knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers, who will be less likely to end up with counterfeits, and who will take care of the buyer, on the off chance that there is an authenticity problem. >>
Are you saying that we should avoid eBay sellers from China?
LOL, at least some of them.
Sellers of fake coins banned by ebay, all based in China except where indicated
mgcjsh518 2199zi 0312rw2010 70sizhijia Benpoy bjy20092009 chaxun981 d98e7ht dazong2009 fableinter.cn fge699 gfh09t7 heung.0706 hia1998 huyang3000nian hyx8026 lihongjing8892008 ljw85.2009 maybe_that88 mq59682009 msn20082008 oulanzh qayswanm qingtianqu shiguaqu shaochuang7899.0516 rr0g4yj rtmmtr01 usbcarde veryimportant198 wufeng2166 wpshop20099 xiaojunyun888 yaoshunyu521188 yingpeiguo1 youchao0403 youpeng0822 schao09 zhanjun2166 zhengguodong75388 zlili_166 zzyk.18 hbvaritey (power seller)(US) chengoods deitymade26 fengweisd2008 huiqu667 lizushan niepengpeng2009 rewt3399 zhaoqi83 asdsffd888 (South Korean) pizhenwei7892009(South Korean) adkwr arp0mm avtvditale azdp88 baiziwanwan chinese_wind8588 dengman008 didiok168 fengkuangdigouwu fuyunbao haolijunhlj2160 heziqian2008 hello_hongkong_8868 huaqing168 huyinley jack_usa2009 james_hk268 jia2008010 kcloweri leisoppreding leiyangmei9898 liao_laxing534763 lihong_bai921 liping_19702 litaotaoa3 liyingzi2378 lubinghuaer lucong3188 meiping777 mkyiewr shunfa2009 tiopoedi tongfeiwangluo8290 wjxu00 xiangyanai666 xiexinxin998 xql_un168 xuyumin88888 yougen3005 yongfame yuelanyang824 zhangqirui zhangyunliang2009 zhaoxulan zhm15688 zhouaimin102988
hongqiqu598168(Taiwan) kirk0037(US) classic82888 chunmafeng cky.11346 coverktee cryfirt eclipse.02123 gahao2009 huahuacc lihuif.fgg jiaro_vite jingzhiwwwp michael92273914 nmousoaisn_203 treasure85188 wei.jia.zhang003440 xiuxianwangluo222 yunshiwy zhaoeri zhibing_56
1968rochelle-2008(US) sutasinee-mong(Thailand) baisha598268(Taiwan) yw0942052009(Taiwan) xinqing1410(Macau) bkoeiton brinkvesty0 chenjin_822088 collorite cwkseard dpp_ing88 feiyao17582008 gladmany happinessshopping858 happybullyear honestsunflower mtop.62 o_oteiotn oldgoodshop5600168 pankly qiangjia.203 sandy.1987 shunshun.83 songlihui999 wanglskdfj wanhin-tsang wholesaletrade2008 wuwofei446 xiangqianfang xiongbeian6456 yaerwangdian688 zhuxinzhi.345
alopxe(US) cxcmnk2009(US) huaxiaguwan58(Taiwan) bbfdbdfbdf168(Taiwan) 110531030 5185will aokb882009 armor518 bcrkn075 geiwoeiwei hardman_1982 haotkuint hongfu268 hrkwxx89 hunggres52 jimiytia king_opec koidmonde0 leiqian666 liesdmaist lilei197003 liqian11866 lokkpie lotnisedly lxioertn menoshuai minghaijingqing nackliesnod.2 niceroble12 number200902 orgreiteny.23 passtingto qinqin0041 qinqin19814 qizhenyibao quertied6.4 shopkaixin shoushi999(power seller) sieckrotou.09 sky_peiv7 snowman82168 superstarstars surnadei tianyacompany888 tibet-seller uitoopaoo usdcridell usmented_203 vcheung823 vo.chdiotr vorneited xiangtianxiao2009 xotinae y_topnze yantuozhuo015145 zhangxingchang689 zhuipaodong07507
heixinlangzhongg(Taiwan) houjianling(Taiwan) jhgfd3(Taiwan) okhiau(Taiwan) zhendhx(Taiwan) 830069lover a154teom abdiel669988 aleoverl art_exquisite2009 bajingnuo chenxinruyi2008 chunfang168 com7845zer coser8974t dongshi168 hengchangbaozhai(power seller) hk-fai hoeell88 isebella99 juejueet kakalovekit lcfok11 meiping777 mtk0611 onmei_lia peggyljp pure_hearted tiancheng63052008 trunquack wenwang69 xiaohuanghua88 xinjie2009 xinstrea yangli2008051888 yaodingrong
izyaslav38(power seller US) sparklingv(US) sgyjfvd(Taiwan) adolfuml(Canada) 8600fu akeem9898 ayclui badfiety-98 basurdy bbloveusd beeleide34 ch-xiong china_huangchao88 erer_long goldlany huang1984qwe527 kennysky34 luoomei2008 maxin519 oivk8591 shuailiu2008 sixingtadiainin sumil.03190 tanbulong988 tianyacompany888 veatylies0 wanganshizhixiang woaixianggang2010 woaixianggang2010 yageaoyun2008 wuxuqin11688 yzw_shoes zoonmeidel15
2101lower 860chen abcd198101 allering altmathies auspicious77 beautifulzoono berinlzer boboeripqe bolochuited bookingadog boorblaea cheng1983tao5566 china_2008_yaofa88 ckiesmili cokerlia dacheng_2008 donexger0 doorgate_666 dslkfjewie2008 e_baerpont eioe1063a eoperz forweike2008 gatgamenic-86 genshun2345 gertiest55 haoyunzhubaochengdian haropiqi hello51999 hezhiwen20088 hgkxy hongmao5182008 hupeng88 hurikar-9 ipng_lini iuykewhiio jjdssdfh kilybolo65 koiniedlies liu_meixi2008 loakdgbid5566 luizeriop meilixinqing_8888 ndkfwoe88 nicesmadet nideboate.567 nkot_cici oiooier_t oixlkeri oranger-ter p_ebpier passedliest pbo_bois poteke ppoocter qustinmas5 red_covert shanghedongfei2008 skydey tiecloched-6 traintrin uiproot ver-kanrop vlcd_800cell wan2002aa wangfangxia689 wangyangyun_55h wei_shop wellhealth_777 wolivenier wuzhou63 xdeso2505 xieooerp xiong405 xoxbird xuanliu998 xuewei22208(power seller) yangli2008051888 yansiben111 yongfeng5188 yuaiying3856112005 yy_wanman zhenhui20082008 zhjacxh zhoumiao168 zhukui5218 zmrr88 zsjtried.5646 songjingwen2008 songlihui999 sosoft_pp tiebealies 4410lvoer afrite11webtoined bbsbbs2008 beijing_618 benketing cdlcdl06 cengshrest-20 chenawei2008 chgxia cmtiont cgx08673 craseniced criptyec daisuhua_072588 duoduool34 dwq0803 eaxd110 fair2008168 fengxinmeizi fdfoweio88 gaisiodeff grnb1686 h04hkj8 hnzhw2008 ijnuhn987 keveripn klocklushe kottoppzer legend5118 liver_alv madeadxy mskk222 nihaolo11lo22aa pd3366ft panan_fir pie7781331 psujyiyy qqainidfooo qv_guangmei qwerty741147 shi_xiaomemg shriot7tn shunxinruyi1985 shuyuan12688 toin-to-zhe wlex6188 xianggangcoins00 kennysky34 xuejian71162008 zhawen198688 zhipx pio_toaaar optn.toeey motteraz manclly11 maozhuxiwansu111 lootmeeting ksdfhwkei kketioye kidtteop jienrony ideal18381 huayitong8322008 huangxiaojuan88 hongcwj716 gicptony gfu_xirmy fair2008168 china_ylyjr666 chenjiako168 bolei410stil 888yang12345 yhlsx888 xuiorteina xinxinxiangrong3388 shengjian200988 sdkfljwe67 rose77se recodrtehoe
You know how hard it is to get these guys banned...must be thousands still selling.
And the Chinese govt probably secretly condones counterfeiting of US collectibles because it brings in income to their nation while at the same time reducing the wealth of the US. But I'd bet the penalites for counterfeiting Chinese collectibles is probably most severe.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>I also suggest that buyers deal with well known, knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers, who will be less likely to end up with counterfeits, and who will take care of the buyer, on the off chance that there is an authenticity problem. >>
Are you saying that we should avoid eBay sellers from China?
Unfortunately, I am to the point of avoiding all unknown Ebay sellers, no matter the location, for coins over a certain dollar value. It is a simple enough matter to set up a middleman in the U. S., knowing or unknowing. There are reports of fakes almost every week on the forum, and they are mostly reports of fake slabs with visible flaws such as a font that looks wrong. A problem with the font is one of the easier corrections to make. It is likely that newer fake slabs are 99% visually perfect copies, fonts and all. It is also likely that large numbers of fake slabs have already been bought by collectors, where the buyer doesn't even know. Most Ebay sellers can not authenticate against high quality fake coins, and are near hopeless against a genuine coin in a high quality fake slab at a higher grade.
What happens when the Chinese get so good that the experts cannot tell them from the originals?
Why does PCGS not give us a hint on what they are doing to minimize the damages?
<< <i>If enough fakes saturate the market, PCGS might even start certifying fakes. Most experts know what to look for on the key dates, but what about more common dates with lots of die marriages? Does anyone know all the die characteristics for an 1876 dime? A 1914 Quarter?
What happens when the Chinese get so good that the experts cannot tell them from the originals?
Why does PCGS not give us a hint on what they are doing to minimize the damages? >>
If PCGS publishes it they will be telling the counterfeiters, too.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The really scariest part is that 20 yrs. ago most counterfeit items from China or elsewhere were of low to very low quality and most were fairly easily detected by even casual observers, however today many Chinese made fakes are of far better quality and using somewhat better materials so as to fool even experienced eyes from time to time. For example, In the worldwide high end, luxury watch market it's now estimated that for every genuine Rolex produced each year there are as many as 10 -12 counterfeits produced and they are being openly sold on hundreds of various websites as 'replicas'.
If huge multi-billion dollar corporations like Microsoft, Intel, Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Rolex, Gucci, etc, etc, and their high powered legal teams can't stop or even dent the production and worldwide sale of fakes, what chance does PCGS stand?
combat counterfeits after all in march they introducted
secure grading. I have yet to see a secure slab counterfeit.
That does not mean they are none but have you seen one?
Here is something we all can do to help insure that people do not get fooled. When you have a coin graded provided a pedigree stating that you where the one that had the coin graded
with a copy of the returned submission form. You can black out what ever information makes you uncomfortable. Then have it notarized.
This may sound troublesome for lower priced coins but it has the potential to add value to a coin. This plan could get a lot better
with help from PCGS providing photos but it can be done outside the industry. This is just a think tank idea and there are a few holes in it but the idea of pedigree is nothing new and I for one don't want to sit on my hands and watch it all fall apart.
An idea I had which might help is if you were to make the serial code on slabs or ad additional serial codes using a type of invisible ink.
The number would only show up under a UV light. It would be almost impossible for fake slab makers to guess the numbers and they wouldn't be able to see them from a picture posted on the internet (for example Heritage). The only way they could put genuine numbers on slabs would be if they where told what the numbers, or purchased the original.
So only the person holding the genuine slab could place it under a UV light and check the number say 567-890-457 and then verify it on a PCGS registry type site. To make it extra safe. When you log on to check the code PCGS could ask you for the coins denomination and year (just so people couldn't sit and type in codes hoping to get lucky). If the number typed in didn't match PCGS site would tell you there was an error.
You could name this service something like "PCGS Secure Serial".If such a coin was sold by an auction
house like Heritage etc. all they would need to say would be something like "PCGS Secure Serial checked" without divulging the numbers.
Under my plan. Whomever the seller is, whether it be an auction house, dealer or a collector would not have to divulge the security serial number when selling. They need only mention that they have checked it. The buyer then should run his own check once they receive the coin.
<< <i>Its obvious that the forgers are looking at pictures of coins and slabs on various sites as even the bar codes are becoming very accurate.
An idea I had which might help is if you were to make the serial code on slabs or ad additional serial codes using a type of invisible ink.
The number would only show up under a UV light. It would be almost impossible for fake slab makers to guess the numbers and they wouldn't be able to see them from a picture posted on the internet (for example Heritage). The only way they could put genuine numbers on slabs would be if they where told what the numbers, or purchased the original.
So only the person holding the genuine slab could place it under a UV light and check the number say 567-890-457 and then verify it on a PCGS registry type site. To make it extra safe. When you log on to check the code PCGS could ask you for the coins denomination and year (just so people couldn't sit and type in codes hoping to get lucky). If the number typed in didn't match PCGS site would tell you there was an error.
You could name this service something like "PCGS Secure Serial".If such a coin was sold by an auction
house like Heritage etc. all they would need to say would be something like "PCGS Secure Serial checked" without divulging the numbers. >>
Damn ,..........thats a pretty powerful idea !
<< <i>
<< <i>Its obvious that the forgers are looking at pictures of coins and slabs on various sites as even the bar codes are becoming very accurate.
An idea I had which might help is if you were to make the serial code on slabs or ad additional serial codes using a type of invisible ink.
The number would only show up under a UV light. It would be almost impossible for fake slab makers to guess the numbers and they wouldn't be able to see them from a picture posted on the internet (for example Heritage). The only way they could put genuine numbers on slabs would be if they where told what the numbers, or purchased the original.
So only the person holding the genuine slab could place it under a UV light and check the number say 567-890-457 and then verify it on a PCGS registry type site. To make it extra safe. When you log on to check the code PCGS could ask you for the coins denomination and year (just so people couldn't sit and type in codes hoping to get lucky). If the number typed in didn't match PCGS site would tell you there was an error.
You could name this service something like "PCGS Secure Serial".If such a coin was sold by an auction
house like Heritage etc. all they would need to say would be something like "PCGS Secure Serial checked" without divulging the numbers. >>
Damn ,..........thats a pretty powerful idea ! >>
Except, as a buyer through the mail, you couldn't check the coin out until you it in hand. And if it was counterfeit, in many cases it would be too late to do anything about it.
Excellent on line images that could be easily accessed and matched to the coins could accomplish the same thing. And buyers wouldn't have to wait until they had possession of the coins to verify them. It is my understanding that NGC does that now. And it might just be coincidence and/or a small sample size, but lately, I have seen a lot more counterfeit PCGS holders than NGC ones.
True but you would be able to verify if the slab was genuine very quickly, if buying from a non honest seller you may struggle to get your money back but I think even on ebay as a buyer you get 7 days return privilege contrary to what some sellers say in their listing.
I like the idea of all coins being imaged and stored as a reference but that too has its downfalls. Unless the coin imaged has some small defect or toning or even unique colourful toning it would be hard to tell the genuine from the fake. Especially if the images of the fake one offered weren't very sharp.
Think of all the blast white Morgans for example. Even with good images stored in a PCGS archive it would be hard to tell one from some of these super fake coins if the fake images weren't as clear.
<< <i>Except, as a buyer through the mail, you couldn't check the coin out until you it in hand. And if it was counterfeit, in many cases it would be too late to do anything about it. Excellent on line images that could be easily accessed and matched to the coins could accomplish the same thing. And buyers wouldn't have to wait until they had possession of the coins to verify them. It is my understanding that NGC does that now. And it might just be coincidence and/or a small sample size, but lately, I have seen a lot more counterfeit PCGS holders than NGC ones.
True but you would be able to verify if the slab was genuine very quickly, if buying from a non honest seller you may struggle to get your money back but I think even on ebay as a buyer you get 7 days return privilege contrary to what some sellers say in their listing.
I like the idea of all coins being imaged and stored as a reference but that too has its downfalls. Unless the coin imaged has some small defect or toning or even unique colourful toning it would be hard to tell the genuine from the fake. Especially if the images of the fake one offered weren't very sharp.
Think of all the blast white Morgans for example. Even with good images stored in a PCGS archive it would be hard to tell one from some of these super fake coins if the fake images weren't as clear. >>
Fair points and another reminder of how difficult the situation is to address effectively. Also, no matter what is done, there will always be a large number of buyers looking for bargains, and who will be easy prey for counterfeiters and scammers.
<< <i>From www.china-mint.info
Sellers of fake coins banned by ebay, all based in China except where indicated
mgcjsh518 2199zi 0312rw2010 70sizhijia Benpoy bjy20092009 chaxun981 d98e7ht dazong2009 fableinter.cn fge699 gfh09t7 heung.0706 hia1998 huyang3000nian hyx8026 lihongjing8892008 ljw85.2009 maybe_that88 mq59682009 msn20082008 oulanzh qayswanm qingtianqu shiguaqu shaochuang7899.0516 rr0g4yj rtmmtr01 usbcarde veryimportant198 wufeng2166 wpshop20099 xiaojunyun888 yaoshunyu521188 yingpeiguo1 youchao0403 youpeng0822 schao09 zhanjun2166 zhengguodong75388 zlili_166 zzyk.18 hbvaritey (power seller)(US) chengoods deitymade26 fengweisd2008 huiqu667 lizushan niepengpeng2009 rewt3399 zhaoqi83 asdsffd888 (South Korean) pizhenwei7892009(South Korean) adkwr arp0mm avtvditale azdp88 baiziwanwan chinese_wind8588 dengman008 didiok168 fengkuangdigouwu fuyunbao haolijunhlj2160 heziqian2008 hello_hongkong_8868 huaqing168 huyinley jack_usa2009 james_hk268 jia2008010 kcloweri leisoppreding leiyangmei9898 liao_laxing534763 lihong_bai921 liping_19702 litaotaoa3 liyingzi2378 lubinghuaer lucong3188 meiping777 mkyiewr shunfa2009 tiopoedi tongfeiwangluo8290 wjxu00 xiangyanai666 xiexinxin998 xql_un168 xuyumin88888 yougen3005 yongfame yuelanyang824 zhangqirui zhangyunliang2009 zhaoxulan zhm15688 zhouaimin102988
hongqiqu598168(Taiwan) kirk0037(US) classic82888 chunmafeng cky.11346 coverktee cryfirt eclipse.02123 gahao2009 huahuacc lihuif.fgg jiaro_vite jingzhiwwwp michael92273914 nmousoaisn_203 treasure85188 wei.jia.zhang003440 xiuxianwangluo222 yunshiwy zhaoeri zhibing_56
1968rochelle-2008(US) sutasinee-mong(Thailand) baisha598268(Taiwan) yw0942052009(Taiwan) xinqing1410(Macau) bkoeiton brinkvesty0 chenjin_822088 collorite cwkseard dpp_ing88 feiyao17582008 gladmany happinessshopping858 happybullyear honestsunflower mtop.62 o_oteiotn oldgoodshop5600168 pankly qiangjia.203 sandy.1987 shunshun.83 songlihui999 wanglskdfj wanhin-tsang wholesaletrade2008 wuwofei446 xiangqianfang xiongbeian6456 yaerwangdian688 zhuxinzhi.345
alopxe(US) cxcmnk2009(US) huaxiaguwan58(Taiwan) bbfdbdfbdf168(Taiwan) 110531030 5185will aokb882009 armor518 bcrkn075 geiwoeiwei hardman_1982 haotkuint hongfu268 hrkwxx89 hunggres52 jimiytia king_opec koidmonde0 leiqian666 liesdmaist lilei197003 liqian11866 lokkpie lotnisedly lxioertn menoshuai minghaijingqing nackliesnod.2 niceroble12 number200902 orgreiteny.23 passtingto qinqin0041 qinqin19814 qizhenyibao quertied6.4 shopkaixin shoushi999(power seller) sieckrotou.09 sky_peiv7 snowman82168 superstarstars surnadei tianyacompany888 tibet-seller uitoopaoo usdcridell usmented_203 vcheung823 vo.chdiotr vorneited xiangtianxiao2009 xotinae y_topnze yantuozhuo015145 zhangxingchang689 zhuipaodong07507
heixinlangzhongg(Taiwan) houjianling(Taiwan) jhgfd3(Taiwan) okhiau(Taiwan) zhendhx(Taiwan) 830069lover a154teom abdiel669988 aleoverl art_exquisite2009 bajingnuo chenxinruyi2008 chunfang168 com7845zer coser8974t dongshi168 hengchangbaozhai(power seller) hk-fai hoeell88 isebella99 juejueet kakalovekit lcfok11 meiping777 mtk0611 onmei_lia peggyljp pure_hearted tiancheng63052008 trunquack wenwang69 xiaohuanghua88 xinjie2009 xinstrea yangli2008051888 yaodingrong
izyaslav38(power seller US) sparklingv(US) sgyjfvd(Taiwan) adolfuml(Canada) 8600fu akeem9898 ayclui badfiety-98 basurdy bbloveusd beeleide34 ch-xiong china_huangchao88 erer_long goldlany huang1984qwe527 kennysky34 luoomei2008 maxin519 oivk8591 shuailiu2008 sixingtadiainin sumil.03190 tanbulong988 tianyacompany888 veatylies0 wanganshizhixiang woaixianggang2010 woaixianggang2010 yageaoyun2008 wuxuqin11688 yzw_shoes zoonmeidel15
2101lower 860chen abcd198101 allering altmathies auspicious77 beautifulzoono berinlzer boboeripqe bolochuited bookingadog boorblaea cheng1983tao5566 china_2008_yaofa88 ckiesmili cokerlia dacheng_2008 donexger0 doorgate_666 dslkfjewie2008 e_baerpont eioe1063a eoperz forweike2008 gatgamenic-86 genshun2345 gertiest55 haoyunzhubaochengdian haropiqi hello51999 hezhiwen20088 hgkxy hongmao5182008 hupeng88 hurikar-9 ipng_lini iuykewhiio jjdssdfh kilybolo65 koiniedlies liu_meixi2008 loakdgbid5566 luizeriop meilixinqing_8888 ndkfwoe88 nicesmadet nideboate.567 nkot_cici oiooier_t oixlkeri oranger-ter p_ebpier passedliest pbo_bois poteke ppoocter qustinmas5 red_covert shanghedongfei2008 skydey tiecloched-6 traintrin uiproot ver-kanrop vlcd_800cell wan2002aa wangfangxia689 wangyangyun_55h wei_shop wellhealth_777 wolivenier wuzhou63 xdeso2505 xieooerp xiong405 xoxbird xuanliu998 xuewei22208(power seller) yangli2008051888 yansiben111 yongfeng5188 yuaiying3856112005 yy_wanman zhenhui20082008 zhjacxh zhoumiao168 zhukui5218 zmrr88 zsjtried.5646 songjingwen2008 songlihui999 sosoft_pp tiebealies 4410lvoer afrite11webtoined bbsbbs2008 beijing_618 benketing cdlcdl06 cengshrest-20 chenawei2008 chgxia cmtiont cgx08673 craseniced criptyec daisuhua_072588 duoduool34 dwq0803 eaxd110 fair2008168 fengxinmeizi fdfoweio88 gaisiodeff grnb1686 h04hkj8 hnzhw2008 ijnuhn987 keveripn klocklushe kottoppzer legend5118 liver_alv madeadxy mskk222 nihaolo11lo22aa pd3366ft panan_fir pie7781331 psujyiyy qqainidfooo qv_guangmei qwerty741147 shi_xiaomemg shriot7tn shunxinruyi1985 shuyuan12688 toin-to-zhe wlex6188 xianggangcoins00 kennysky34 xuejian71162008 zhawen198688 zhipx pio_toaaar optn.toeey motteraz manclly11 maozhuxiwansu111 lootmeeting ksdfhwkei kketioye kidtteop jienrony ideal18381 huayitong8322008 huangxiaojuan88 hongcwj716 gicptony gfu_xirmy fair2008168 china_ylyjr666 chenjiako168 bolei410stil 888yang12345 yhlsx888 xuiorteina xinxinxiangrong3388 shengjian200988 sdkfljwe67 rose77se recodrtehoe
You know how hard it is to get these guys banned...must be thousands still selling. >>
I hope I never get on Frank's bad side.