In other collectible fields, "doctors" exist. What, if anything, is being done in those fi
SanctionII
Posts: 12,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
For example:
1. Paintings;
2. Sculpture;
3. Classic Automobiles;
4. Rare Books;
5. Sports Collectibles.
No doubt many collectibles in these areas have been "doctored" to improve the appearance of same, to obtain higher sales prices. Are there any efforts in these other areas to address and mitigate/eliminate "doctoring"? If so, what success or lack of success has resulted? And, can the coin hobby learn from these other areas?
1. Paintings;
2. Sculpture;
3. Classic Automobiles;
4. Rare Books;
5. Sports Collectibles.
No doubt many collectibles in these areas have been "doctored" to improve the appearance of same, to obtain higher sales prices. Are there any efforts in these other areas to address and mitigate/eliminate "doctoring"? If so, what success or lack of success has resulted? And, can the coin hobby learn from these other areas?
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Sports cards and coins are in the same category with regards to doctoring. I'm sure the card boys cut the borders more evenly, remove stains, hide creases, etc. And it's up to the graders to keep up with the doctors.
roadrunner
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
People clean and shine and dip and tone coins is established. It happens. There is a customer base for it as well. But it just doesn't violate any laws. It seems to violate some by laws to belong to certain groups but I submit those groups have little power over the industry as a whole.
I jammed some Kennedy's in a Dansco a few years ago that were right out of mint sets. You'd swear I violated those coins in some manner if you saw them but I didn't. Technology is probably the only way to detect doctoring. I read somewhere on here that some grading company had a sniffer of some kind. I used to use a "sniffer" to detect solvents and jet fuel vapors some years ago when I taught confined space entry courses to military personnel required to enter aircraft fuel cells. I kind of cringed when I read that because yes you can detect vapors but only for a limited amount of time. I'm curious if the description of what was used was off a little or if there is something new.
I also used to work in Materials Science and know that acids and corrosion removal compounds will rip a few microns away from an oxide film and build up a new film that is easily detectible under high magnification. So with the right equipment you could almost certainly detect a dip right up to the point where another oxide film naturally "grew" over it but it could probably still be detectible by somebody with extreme knowledge of the particular metallurgy of whatever coin it was.
Technology and grading services and trained experts are the answer.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
Is repatination of bronze sculpture doctoring?
At what point does a classic car cease being a real classic car and become a "tribute" vehicle?
Should rare books with leather bindings be treated to prevent them from drying out? (This is a very common practice.)
Doctoring needs to be clearly defined but few can agree on a definition.
After all that work and research, the thread ended up 'poofed' - was very depressing to see.
Several of us raised a complaint about a member that was selling repaired items as mint. I was one of his victims.
After an investigation, he was recently removed from the collecting society for life. He can no longer advertise items for sale in the newsletter.
Seems pretty straight forward.
Ron
Edited to add: I think it was the USS Central America
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17171372/
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The chain of events in stamps is such that while efforts are good, odds of successfully eliminating the problem in coins seem small to me.
Combine the docs, with what seems to be a flood of fake coins and fake slabs, and it is a scary world out there. Seems like every week there are at least a couple of new fake slabs reported by the forum. What may be the scariest part is that the reported fake slabs are being detected by mistakes in fonts or such, and problems with fonts are one of the easiest things for the faker to correct. It is likely that there are high quality fake slabs that are 99.5% visually perfect, that can not be detected by a photo.
Artwork deteriorates over the years and to most collectors removing something like foxing spots is not an issue. It stops large holes from forming in the paper.
Repairing a tear is accepted, as long as it is disclosed, repairing a tear and then trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent.
Removing old repairs to a painting then stabilizing the surface is a good thing, trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent.
In coins, removing surface contaminants to preserve the surface is conserving and ok with me. Artificially toning a coin to hide damage and passing it off as original is fraudulent, building up the head on a SLQ and trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent, recutting the bands on a Merc and trying to pass it off as FB is fraudulent.
It really seems pretty simple to me.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
Ws
However, there has always been a group that has sought and appreciated unrestored examples. Most famously, for Corvettes, there is the 'Survivor' designation, and the much coveted 'Benchmark' moniker. For other makes of cars, unrestored originals are most highly prized. A car, like a coin, can only be original once.
Some of my favorite reads in the Special Interest Autos magazine for the hobby are the so-called 'Drivable Dreams'. Old, unrestored cars still in active service.