In other collectible fields, "doctors" exist. What, if anything, is being done in those fi

SanctionII

For example:

1. Paintings;

2. Sculpture;

3. Classic Automobiles;

4. Rare Books;

5. Sports Collectibles.

No doubt many collectibles in these areas have been "doctored" to improve the appearance of same, to obtain higher sales prices. Are there any efforts in these other areas to address and mitigate/eliminate "doctoring"? If so, what success or lack of success has resulted? And, can the coin hobby learn from these other areas?

roadrunner

In those fields where there is no effective means (or even desired) to encase collectibles into appraised/tamper-resistant holders there is no concern about doctoring since most everyone does it. My grandpa dealt in antiques in the 1920's to 1940's and used to tell stories about how good craftsmen could take legitimate 17th and 18th century wood, and use all the skills of those periods to make "correct-appearing" reproductions including the wear. Those markets are used to having things repaired and it goes with the territory. I think those dealers know better than to air their dirty laundry in the open realizing it would only lead to more regulations. In the classic automobiles it seems to me that the majority of collectors and investors want an over-restored car that shines unlike no factory applied paint ever could. It's the glitz that sells....just like those dipped out gem BU silver coins. Or course in the rare furniture business the more original patina, wear and grime the better. The desk docs have ways of creating those surfaces as well. It's not fraud to create a reproduction or simulate age in an antique as long as you don't sell it using bogus information.

Sports cards and coins are in the same category with regards to doctoring. I'm sure the card boys cut the borders more evenly, remove stains, hide creases, etc. And it's up to the graders to keep up with the doctors.

roadrunner

derryb

fraud is fraud no matter how you slice it and it is considered a criminal act punishable in a court of law. It's ultimately up to the victim to pursue compensation.

LindeDad

It is an

JapanJohn

In my mind there is not much difference from colorizing coins. People take perfectly good coins and colorize them and sell them for a profit. Most of us think it is disturbing and not collectible but somebody out there obviously doesn't as the coins are being made and sold.

People clean and shine and dip and tone coins is established. It happens. There is a customer base for it as well. But it just doesn't violate any laws. It seems to violate some by laws to belong to certain groups but I submit those groups have little power over the industry as a whole.

I jammed some Kennedy's in a Dansco a few years ago that were right out of mint sets. You'd swear I violated those coins in some manner if you saw them but I didn't. Technology is probably the only way to detect doctoring. I read somewhere on here that some grading company had a sniffer of some kind. I used to use a "sniffer" to detect solvents and jet fuel vapors some years ago when I taught confined space entry courses to military personnel required to enter aircraft fuel cells. I kind of cringed when I read that because yes you can detect vapors but only for a limited amount of time. I'm curious if the description of what was used was off a little or if there is something new.

I also used to work in Materials Science and know that acids and corrosion removal compounds will rip a few microns away from an oxide film and build up a new film that is easily detectible under high magnification. So with the right equipment you could almost certainly detect a dip right up to the point where another oxide film naturally "grew" over it but it could probably still be detectible by somebody with extreme knowledge of the particular metallurgy of whatever coin it was.

Technology and grading services and trained experts are the answer.

John

GoldenEyeNumismatics

In many other hobbies, most forms of "doctoring" are tolerated, supported, or even encouraged.

291fifth

Was the restoration of Michaelangelo's work on the Sistine Chapel doctoring?

Is repatination of bronze sculpture doctoring?

At what point does a classic car cease being a real classic car and become a "tribute" vehicle?

Should rare books with leather bindings be treated to prevent them from drying out? (This is a very common practice.)

Doctoring needs to be clearly defined but few can agree on a definition.

scotty1418

The work is strong in paper money too. There was just recently a WONDERFUL thread in our paper money forum here where members researched old heritage auctions etc and showed the same notes up for sale later on after they had been 'worked' (pictures included)- the exact thing many people here complain hasn't been happening for coins.

After all that work and research, the thread ended up 'poofed' - was very depressing to see.

Lakesammman

I'm a member of another collecting society (related to stoneware).

Several of us raised a complaint about a member that was selling repaired items as mint. I was one of his victims.

After an investigation, he was recently removed from the collecting society for life. He can no longer advertise items for sale in the newsletter.

Seems pretty straight forward.

melvin289

Had I done to coins I owned what happened to the coins from the shipwreck, someone please supply the name, too lazy to look it up now, they would be considered cleaned. The coins from the shipwreck were "curated."

Ron

Edited to add: I think it was the USS Central America

RedTiger

Not mentioned is the stamp doctor who was named, with articles published in the major stamp magazines, even a group set up to watch his moves. Yet, despite being named, despite having major publicity, despite having his Ebay account suspended, he continued to operate for many years, setting up new accounts on the way, netting huge money on altered stamps.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17171372/
link

The chain of events in stamps is such that while efforts are good, odds of successfully eliminating the problem in coins seem small to me.

Combine the docs, with what seems to be a flood of fake coins and fake slabs, and it is a scary world out there. Seems like every week there are at least a couple of new fake slabs reported by the forum. What may be the scariest part is that the reported fake slabs are being detected by mistakes in fonts or such, and problems with fonts are one of the easiest things for the faker to correct. It is likely that there are high quality fake slabs that are 99.5% visually perfect, that can not be detected by a photo.

291fifth

In some collectible fields, it seems that "doctoring," whatever that is, is OK as long as the money being made is being made by the "right" people.

ricko

Restoration, curation, et al - simply terms used to allow a practice - which in numismatics - is called doctoring. Whether it be art, furniture or old cars, it is done and done frequently. No, it is not always disclosed. Often when it is disclosed, it is done so with fanfare. "Recently restored picture", "curated relics" etc. This practice goes on in many fields. Now, in art, the big issue is 'forgery'. That is a painting performed by a contemporary to appear as if done by a famous - and collectible - artist. Now THAT is a sin in the art world. It all depends on who is doing it, the 'glorified' justification, and the spin put on the promotion by those who will profit from the effort. Cheers, RickO

JCMhouston

There is a difference between conserving and doctoring, whether people want to admit it or not. I also collect drawings and etchings, as well as 18th C. British pottery. In the painting/drawing worl there is a lot of conservation going on, usually it is not a problem.

Artwork deteriorates over the years and to most collectors removing something like foxing spots is not an issue. It stops large holes from forming in the paper.

Repairing a tear is accepted, as long as it is disclosed, repairing a tear and then trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent.

Removing old repairs to a painting then stabilizing the surface is a good thing, trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent.

In coins, removing surface contaminants to preserve the surface is conserving and ok with me. Artificially toning a coin to hide damage and passing it off as original is fraudulent, building up the head on a SLQ and trying to pass it off as original is fraudulent, recutting the bands on a Merc and trying to pass it off as FB is fraudulent.

It really seems pretty simple to me.

DeepCoin

What comes around, tends to go around in collecting circles. Is a blast white Morgan better than toned? Preferences change over time. In the car collecting world the 100 point over the top restoration used to be the standard to get the biggest dollars. Now, original unrestored is coming to the fore. As is often stated, it is only original once. My prediction is the survivors will far outpace the total restorations in the future.

WaterSport

When I first saw this thread I thought you were going to tell me they even doctor Beenie Babies!!!!

Ws

JBN

In automobiles, there certainly is a portion of collectors who go for the frame off restoration to better than factory conditions. These perfect autos often get trailered from show to show, collecting awards.

However, there has always been a group that has sought and appreciated unrestored examples. Most famously, for Corvettes, there is the 'Survivor' designation, and the much coveted 'Benchmark' moniker. For other makes of cars, unrestored originals are most highly prized. A car, like a coin, can only be original once.

Some of my favorite reads in the Special Interest Autos magazine for the hobby are the so-called 'Drivable Dreams'. Old, unrestored cars still in active service.