The only point I proved is that you are a troll more interested in chasing me around than actual discourse. I will not address any of your 'issues' until you've addressed mine - as illustrated so succinctly by coinguy1
<< <i>He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>> >>
Mark, that's counterfeiting, or in the nature of counterfeiting. I agree, that's clearly fraud. I was asking him for a definition in the hypothetical challenge he posed and couldn't understand why nobody was answering, not an "example."
EDIT: So as to enable one to meaningfully respond to the challenge...
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot.
<< <i>He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>> >>
Mark, that's counterfeiting, or in the nature of counterfeiting. I agree, that's clearly fraud. I was asking him for a definition in the hypothetical challenge he posed and couldn't understand why nobody was answering, .not an "example." >>
That is not counterfeiting - it is doctoring and alteration of a genuine coin. And why not deal with the specific example TDN gave, rather than insist upon a definition?
It's a shame - most of the combatants in this thread are on the same side of the coin doctoring issue. Yet, they appear to prefer to argue with each other, rather than direct their energies at the coin doctors. I guess the former is a lot easier and more enjoyable
To those who find fault with the efforts of Laura, TDN etc., instead of arguing with and/or insulting them, why not do it better, yourself, instead? I repeat, most of us are on the same side, here. Why not act accordingly?
My point was that while it may not be fraudulent to doctor coins, it IS fraudulent to either sell them as original or to then submit them to the TPG's in a deceptive manner.
And I've already addressed the issue that I had with rickos post. There are actually 4 camps - 5 if you include those completely disinterested in the issue.
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot. >>
It's apples to oranges to ask TDN to name names and to compare that to the PNG doing so.
The PNG is an organization whose members have agreed not to do certain things and to conduct themselves according to the organization's rules. Hence the PNG is in a much different/better position to name names than a non-PNG member is.
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot. >>
The difference between me naming names and them expelling members is that it's not my job to police their membership - it's theirs. And it reflects poorly upon them when they don't.
Without someone holding their feet to the fire, do you really think anything will be done? Based upon past history? There are AT LEAST 2 PNG members that I have heard doctor coins for the entire 15 years that I've been back in coin collecting. One just got named in the lawsuit. The other still goes along his merry way...
<< <i>It's apples to oranges to ask TDN to name names and to compare that to the PNG doing so.
The PNG is an organization whose members have agreed not to do certain things and to conduct themselves according to the organization's rules. Hence the PNG is in a much different/better position to name names than a non-PNG member is. >>
I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry.
Keep in mind also the rule of unintended consequences. Even if PNG won and got rid of the bad guys, the publicity would give the hobby a very nasty black eye by calling attention to the fact that shady people of all types have a prominent place in numismatics. It would give a great many people cold feet. This has happened before in similar walks of life--counterfeit paintings/sculptures are good examples.
I reiterate that the $1,000 reward thing is goofball silly, tantamount to a red-faced child stomping up and down in the grocery store. A real solution will someday arise, but until it does, a little patience and continued scrutiny are in order here.
I'd finally add that both you and TDN are extremely influential in this hobby--leaders even. I admire you guys. I'm just surprised you aren't more pragmatic and circumspect on this issue.
<< <i> There are AT LEAST 2 PNG members that I have heard doctor coins for the entire 15 years that I've been back in coin collecting. One just got named in the lawsuit. The other still goes along his merry way... >>
Has the second one been called out? Just wondering.
-D
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
"I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry."
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion.
<< <i>"I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry."
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion. >>
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>"I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry."
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion. >>
The PNG already has the following in their "Code Of Ethics":
"PNG Code of Ethics Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge: ....... 7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers. ..... Binding Effect This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
Conduct Prejudicial to PNG Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these By-Laws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law."
<< <i>This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon ... any non-member affiliated with any entity that ... employs, a PNG member. >>
I know this is a tangent, but I'm wondering about the mechanism which would allow PNG to be able to enforce their code of ethics on a non-member who happened to work at the same place a PNG member was employed.
Just curious, that's all. Seems like it would be a difficult thing to do.
I could give you some names that would pin your ears back........
But I got no hard evidence , no proof
I don't need the names of the alleged guilty parties , I need the means by which to identify their products
and if the percentage of doctored coins is very , very small
then can't I expect PCGS to provide me a slab that has an un-doctored coin in it ?
Then all this business about doctoring becomes something I don't have to worry about - AT ALL
and if I already have doctored coins in my PCGS holdings - then PCGS is gonna fix that too , they will pay me a fair price for them .
So what am I worried about ? >>
PawPaul--If you are correct and if the percentage is very very small, then this may be the best way to proceed. It is the way the market is currently proceeding. But if there are many doctored coins out there, if the coin doctors are winning, then something else needs to be done, either by honest dealers or by the national organizations. At the ANA summer conference, there is a course offered on the detection of counterfeit and altered coins. Great course! During one or both of the years I took that course, 5 or 6 years ago, we spoke anonymously to a coin doctor, maybe a recovered coin doctor, for about one hour on the phone. His voice was disguised as I recall. I recall him saying that the doctors are out there in some force and that they stay a step ahead of the TPGs. He said that a high percentage of high end proof gold had been played with and that a lot of high end coins in holders were also doctored. That conversation stuck with me and I happen to think that he was telling the truth. And if he was truthful, then more needs to be done.
"PNG Code of Ethics Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge: ....... 7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers. ..... Binding Effect This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
Conduct Prejudicial to PNG Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these By-Laws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law." >>
I didn't know that PNG had this and it's pretty good. I'm actually surprised that no one has reported an alleged violator who is also a PNG member. In lookng further, maybe it is because of section 14 which requires members also to: 14. To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
Section 14 seems to bring things back to the normal legal standard that govern lawsuits and still subjects complainers to civil suit . Still, the language you quoted isn't bad and as I said I'm surprised no one has acted on it.
ANA has similar language in its ethics rules.
In looking at PNG's website further, they also have a collector Bill of Rights which contains the same or similar language that you quoted. Section says that PNG dealers provide this assurance to collectors:
4) Not [to] sell counterfeit, altered or repaired items without full disclosure to the buyer.
So theoretically, a non-PNG member collector could complain as well. There is a reference to PNG arbitration but nothing to explain what those rules are.
So I think that is pretty good, but they could be better. For example, PNG could also require its members to affirmatively report doctored coins or coin doctors to PNG for resolution. They could better define doctoring as it appears they are attempting to do and they could strengthen their by-laws to insist that members understand that they no longer tolerate the dealing in or handling of doctored coins. They could set up or define a complaint and/or disputes mechanism with the understanding that those who file in good faith a compliant or report are immune from suit. They could keep those reports confidential so as not to harm those found not responsible, either premanently or until a final determination was made. ANA could do the same. Then PNG and ANA could rightly claim to be the standard bearers for the coin collecting hobby in ensuring that it is reliable and safe for collectors and investors ( or at least safer).
<< <i><< This site attracts the more knowlegeable collector to start with. >>
No, it doesn't.
Yep, you cleared that up. >>
CU often attracts the inquisitive and dignified collector, but knowledgeable doesn't always go along with that.
I've always felt that there are four types of people on these boards:
1) People open to new knowledge and ideas. These people come to CU with little or limited knowledge to start with, but are often inquisitive and insightful. With time, these people can become very well versed in their areas of interest. 2) People who have read the Redbook and frequently post on CU, and therefore think they are numismatically "enlightened" and self-professed experts. These types think they can understand the big picture without having much first-hand experience. 3) Genuine experts in particular fields. 4) Rabble-rousers.
1 is the majority. 3 is shrinking and 2 is growing. 4 is often a radical version of 2.
While I believe you are genuine in your hatred of coin doctoring and in your support of Laura Sperber, I don't think you have much first hand experience with doctored coins. Don't get me wrong--I'm opposed to coin doctoring--but the way it's portrayed by this forum and by Legend is very sensationalized compared to the legitimate severity of the issue as it currently stands. Is it a challenge to find great material in the coin market? Often times it can be. However, it's not as if 95 out of 100 coins is "dreck."
If you talked to all the dealers at the Boston ANA, probably a third would respond "huh?" if you asked them about the PCGS lawsuit----they aren't even aware of it. Another third would be aware but not be very well informed. The remainder may have been following it closely, but what do you expect them to do, start blogs like Legend and further sensationalize an issue which doesn't need it any further?
The problem is certainly being battled. New technologies by PCGS will definitely cut down the number of coins being doctored. Growing public sentiment against doctored coins will certainly cut back the number of amateur doctors that are just starting. But here's my two cents. If Legend wants to be a public leader in the fight against doctored coins, then show the public what doctored coins look like. If you can write about the millions of dollars worth of coins you sell on a regular basis, then why not put in $50k or $100k to put together a case of doctored coins you could display at each show. Put in a fake full head SLQ, some puttied material, fake split bands on a merc, some artificially toned coins, a shoe-shined bust dollar, etc etc. This way you can help show the public what these forms of doctoring can look like (and in some situations, how deceptive they can be). If anything, it will at least help some folks realize they need to better educate themselves. And without a doubt it will attract many more people to your table at coin shows.
If Legend wants to be a public leader in the fight against doctored coins, then show the public what doctored coins look like. If you can write about the millions of dollars worth of coins you sell on a regular basis, then why not put in $50k or $100k to put together a case of doctored coins you could display at each show. Put in a fake full head SLQ, some puttied material, fake split bands on a merc, some artificially toned coins, a shoe-shined bust dollar, etc etc. This way you can help show the public what these forms of doctoring can look like (and in some situations, how deceptive they can be). If anything, it will at least help some folks realize they need to better educate themselves. And without a doubt it will attract many more people to your table at coin shows.
I don't think PCGS or NGC would appreciate the advertising of such coins if still slabbed. After all, they are just as big a hurry to get such coins off the market themselves. Now if we're talking only raw coins then such a display could be beneficial, at least to educate the public. But one would have to wonder where the dealer got such coins? Certainly the TPG's wouldn't want to let out their "failures" for the market to see. And a dealer showing a lot of doctored coins might then also be associated with them somehow, esp. from new people entering the hobby. How about buying priceless autographs from a dealer who makes it a habit of showing dozens of fakes at each convention they attend? Might not be the best course for building an airtight reputation. I would hope that any coins that get full heads or split bands are defaced/destroyed and removed from the hobby entirely. But then again I don't know what actually happens to a $10,000 FH SLQ that is found to have maneuvered metal. It shouldn't be let back into the market place only to fool someone else down the road.
<< <i>I think its funny that all everyone here can do is point fingers. Has anyone offered to help Laura? Anyone added to the fund?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up. >>
Red Herring. Nobody is going to name names. Showboating. Grandstanding. Attention getting.
It worked.
John >>
Personally, I think that bringing attention to, and keeping it focused on this matter is a good thing. If you don't like the way Laura is doing things, why not do them differently and better yourself. Or do you not care about it?
I generally don't care one way or the other. I live outside the United States and don't get to go to coin shows and am very hesitant to purchase any of the coins that I would like to add to my collection via ebay or internet from 8000 nautical miles away and not being able to recoup any nefarious transactions which this thread certainly indicates the industry is fraught with. Consequently a lot of sellers don't necessarily want to ship a $10,000 or $20,000 coin to an overseas or FPO address.
But I recognize grandstanding when I see it. While I'm not a major player in the coin world my family obtained some years ago a large book collection which contained some amazing rarities. My family has sold some items and had done authentications and has paid for expert opinions. Let me tell you that your expert opinion is relative to how much money you spend in some cases.
That industry is ate up with crooks. Took years for us to get a one book returned via the Federal Court system from a dealer who sold the thing for about a million dollars with a forged signature from my father and then claimed the book was a forgery and oh by the way part of their deal stated if the book was a forgery he kept the book and they kept his $25,000 retainer. He made a million dollars they made $25,000. Guess he didn't figure they'd sue and win and make him lose his house and business.
I see no difference between most book dealers and most coin dealers. Most will do or say anything to make a dollar. Before you guys start beating me up I also know there are good book dealers and good coin dealers. Make that great book dealers and great coin dealers. But it takes years of relationship building and direct contact with the industry to learn the players. Again, I live outside the country and can't do this currently. But I see this for what it is. That you may see it as something entirely different I recognize and respect that and will concede that you know the players in the game way better than I do. However, I as the customer get to pick and choose the dealer I use and tactics such as Legend uses smack way too similar to what I've experienced in the rare book world. Cynical? Yes.
Oh geeeez. For YEARS Laura has been the only voice in the crowd harping on coin doctors. She not some Johnny come lately grandstanding and using it to gain business.
Goldeneye- I like your idea alot, but just like the other ideas there is always someone that is opposed to it. (slabbed doctored coins)
1, You can not name the names, you will be sued 2, You can not put up a list of doctored coins coming to auction, you may call a doctored coin that is not and then the seller would be out to sue you. 3. Someone could put out a display of certified coins that got graded even though they were docotored- I bet that would get a few presidents a little worked up.
About all you can do is preach from the pulpit that doctored coins exist and give no real examples. Business as usual but PCGS lawsuit will be a help in slowing it down hopefully, time will tell how the lawsuit works out. This may be the only lawsuit ever filed by PCGS or may just be the first of many.
At this point i guess CAC is a collectors best friend, to bad they do not list certificate numbers of those coins that do not recieve the bean.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I think its funny that all everyone here can do is point fingers. Has anyone offered to help Laura? Anyone added to the fund?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up. >>
Red Herring. Nobody is going to name names. Showboating. Grandstanding. Attention getting.
It worked.
John >>
Personally, I think that bringing attention to, and keeping it focused on this matter is a good thing. If you don't like the way Laura is doing things, why not do them differently and better yourself. Or do you not care about it? >>
Consider any other industry....
Airline
After every aeronautic trade show Legend Aeronautics posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these other airlines crash planes, lose bags, and have rude flight attendants. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
Automotive
After every automotive trade show Legend Cars posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these other manufacturers build crappy cars, have horrible warranties, and shouldn't be allowed to sell cars to the public. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
Electronics
After every E3 Legend Electronics posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these others computer makers are making inferior computers. They cost too much money, they fail all the time, and they can't do half of what ours can. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
So, please...
If it isn't coin doctoring, its "dreck". If it isn't "dreck", its 'great show for those selling the highest end material - but everyone selling lower end material had a bad show'. Maybe she is passionate about the problems she sees in the industry. But, a constant posting of content that amounts 99% rant and 1% information will eventually be recognized by all for what it is. Pointless.
Stop faulting, bellyaching, and whining & start researching, educating, and achieving.
<< <i>Oh geeeez. For YEARS Laura has been the only voice in the crowd harping on coin doctors. She not some Johnny come lately grandstanding and using it to gain business. >>
<< <i>Oh geeeez. For YEARS Laura has been the only voice in the crowd harping on coin doctors. She not some Johnny come lately grandstanding and using it to gain business. >>
Sez the guy in business with her.
John >>
John, I'm not in business with Legend. And I have discussed the coin doctoring problem with them/Laura and seen her and TDN speak out publicly against it for years. I have done the same, just not quite as passionately as Laura.
I know you're not in business with them and I hope you didn't think I was thinking that you were. I was responding to TDN's post. I concede that both of you guys are the good guys and well known experts. I wouldn't even begin to question that.
I'm just referring to dealer tactics. I think I've been around the boards for 4 or 5 years and I don't think I've ever heard anybody say one bad thing about either of you regarding expertise.
I've just got an opinion on this as have another 100 or so people who have posted in this thread and unfortunately I have too much time on my hands this morning. One of the shipboard aircraft landing systems I'm supposed to be some kind of guru on is down on some tiny little beautiful remote sub tropical island off of Okinawa and I'm sitting in a fine little resort hotel waiting on a box from Fed Ex with repair parts that won't be here for several days. All I have in this world right now is a whole lot of time and an internet connection and a strong opinion.
A dangerous combination. However about 2 miles uphill from me is a mountain with hundreds of steps on it. I'm going to walk to the mountain in this 90+ degree heat and 100% relative humidity and climb those hundreds of steps. I shall then retire to the pool with an icy cold Orion beer.
I mean no harm guys and I am on your side on the issue. I just have issue with the way its presented. It doesn't seem like it can succeed.
Japan John, I am good friends with George at Legend. Do you really think they need to hype themselves? I have watched as they built their business by being honest and caring about the coin community. Do you think hype gets the customers they have?
Laura can sell a million dollar coin one second and still sit and talk to me while I am buying a 79S MS67 Morgan. She has a passion for coins as strong as anyone I know.
I have spoken to her about what she has written. Before you all make comments that are baseless, maybe you should talk to her. That goes for everyone here.
She has taken a lot of unfair heat from both collectors and dealers about this subject. I highly doubt this subject would ever have been brought out if it were not for her. All everyone here does is sit their chairs, probably drink beer, and type so they can act like a hero (unless of course you are a coin doc-then you just attack).
<< <i>All everyone here does is sit their chairs, probably drink beer, and type so they can act like a hero (unless of course you are a coin doc-then you just attack). >>
Dave, you're obsessed. Why don't you take a breather from continuing to make a big fool out of yourself, and contribute to one of the other threads, here. You've got 99 posts, to date, and they're all on this subject, since your join month, May. You're leading with your chin, pal. Let this thing have its course. You're the new member who initially alerted us to this complaint, and we give you a hearty, hero's welcome for that. If there's any substantive merit to the serious allegations, therein, you'll and we'll find out, I predict, in just under a month from now. Be patient. I understand it's a virtue.
<< ...Dave, you're obsessed. Why don't you take a breather from continuing to make a big fool out of yourself, and contribute to one of the other threads, here.....>>
<<Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.>>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Nope. Yawn >>
I think you just proved RickO's point. >>
Still boring! Yawn.
The only point I proved is that you are a troll more interested in chasing me around than actual discourse. I will not address any of your 'issues' until you've addressed mine - as illustrated so succinctly by coinguy1
<< <i>He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>> >>
Mark, that's counterfeiting, or in the nature of counterfeiting. I agree, that's clearly fraud. I was asking him for a definition in the hypothetical challenge he posed and couldn't understand why nobody was answering, not an "example."
EDIT: So as to enable one to meaningfully respond to the challenge...
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot.
<< <i>
<< <i>He already gave a very specific example, which no one addressed: <<If you don't think coin docs commit fraud when they build up a head on a SLQ out of soft metal and then submit it to a TPG in hopes of having it blessed....>> >>
Mark, that's counterfeiting, or in the nature of counterfeiting. I agree, that's clearly fraud. I was asking him for a definition in the hypothetical challenge he posed and couldn't understand why nobody was answering, .not an "example." >>
That is not counterfeiting - it is doctoring and alteration of a genuine coin. And why not deal with the specific example TDN gave, rather than insist upon a definition?
It's a shame - most of the combatants in this thread are on the same side of the coin doctoring issue. Yet, they appear to prefer to argue with each other, rather than direct their energies at the coin doctors. I guess the former is a lot easier and more enjoyable
To those who find fault with the efforts of Laura, TDN etc., instead of arguing with and/or insulting them, why not do it better, yourself, instead? I repeat, most of us are on the same side, here. Why not act accordingly?
And I've already addressed the issue that I had with rickos post. There are actually 4 camps - 5 if you include those completely disinterested in the issue.
<< <i>
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot. >>
It's apples to oranges to ask TDN to name names and to compare that to the PNG doing so.
The PNG is an organization whose members have agreed not to do certain things and to conduct themselves according to the organization's rules. Hence the PNG is in a much different/better position to name names than a non-PNG member is.
<< <i>
<< <i> Seems to me the $1,000 isn't designed to reward the PNG, but rather to keep the pressure on them by keeping the issue in the limelight. Once you grasp this point, it all makes sense. >>
At the end of the day, it comes down to her specifically asking them to name names and take action against the docs--period. Just for the hell of it, why don't YOU identify three prominent coin doctors by name right here and now, note how their actions have by definition cheated collectors out of thousands of dollars, and demand that they be expelled?
You wouldn't do it, even if someone offered you $1,000 (or much more) per name. Why? Because you wouldn't risk getting your ass sued off by the people you named. "Keeping the issue in the limelight" is one thing, but insinuating that PNG is somehow cowardly for not naming names when there is so much at stake from potential litigation, is disingenuous and ignores the realities of how the world works.
I believe that at some level you know this. The $1,000 reward thing is intended to embarrass PNG when they really are in an untenable position. It implies they have no concern about the problem at all. It's really a cheap shot. >>
The difference between me naming names and them expelling members is that it's not my job to police their membership - it's theirs. And it reflects poorly upon them when they don't.
Without someone holding their feet to the fire, do you really think anything will be done? Based upon past history? There are AT LEAST 2 PNG members that I have heard doctor coins for the entire 15 years that I've been back in coin collecting. One just got named in the lawsuit. The other still goes along his merry way...
<< <i>It's apples to oranges to ask TDN to name names and to compare that to the PNG doing so.
The PNG is an organization whose members have agreed not to do certain things and to conduct themselves according to the organization's rules. Hence the PNG is in a much different/better position to name names than a non-PNG member is. >>
I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry.
Keep in mind also the rule of unintended consequences. Even if PNG won and got rid of the bad guys, the publicity would give the hobby a very nasty black eye by calling attention to the fact that shady people of all types have a prominent place in numismatics. It would give a great many people cold feet. This has happened before in similar walks of life--counterfeit paintings/sculptures are good examples.
I reiterate that the $1,000 reward thing is goofball silly, tantamount to a red-faced child stomping up and down in the grocery store. A real solution will someday arise, but until it does, a little patience and continued scrutiny are in order here.
I'd finally add that both you and TDN are extremely influential in this hobby--leaders even. I admire you guys. I'm just surprised you aren't more pragmatic and circumspect on this issue.
Great phrase "holding feet to the fire" & I think that sums in up as succintly as possible in a short blurb.
Wish there were a "holding feet to the fire" icon thingy.
<< <i> There are AT LEAST 2 PNG members that I have heard doctor coins for the entire 15 years that I've been back in coin collecting. One just got named in the lawsuit. The other still goes along his merry way... >>
Has the second one been called out? Just wondering.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion.
Tom
<< <i>"I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry."
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion. >>
Bingo!
<< <i>"I submit they are not in a much different/better position. The judgment in a defamation lawsuit could be so enormous as to wreck the PNG completely. One could argue how valuable a service they render to dealers/collectors, but naming these people could destroy them as an entity and shut down that service completely. They're pockets are not that deep; even if they won the lawyer fees could break them. They are not the U.S. government, with unlimited resources--lol. They are a small organization in relatively small industry."
I'm not sure I agree with this. PNG, for example, could amend their by-laws to say we don't accept or condone coin doctoring and if you want to be a member of PNG you must agree to our terms, which include not doctoring, abiding by our disputes mechanisms and not suing us if we investigate you for same. All members who want to be part of this group join. Others, don't.
If that happened, I suspect Legend might join and others might leave. ( I have never bought a coin from Legend) At that point, I would seek out PNG members to buy from because, in my view, they would then be performing a service for me, the consumer.
The ANA might then decide to follow suit and should in any event and I would then seek out ANA member-dealers to buy from because they provide this valuable service as well. In this way the industry self-polices and keeps the federal government out of it. Otherwise, the industry runs amok and we end up with federal regulation on a broad scale.
I confess, I haven't thought it through completely, but that is sort of how it could work if PNG and the ANA would do this necessary work to help clean up the industry. Just my opinion. >>
The PNG already has the following in their "Code Of Ethics":
"PNG Code of Ethics
Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
.......
7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.
.....
Binding Effect
This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
Conduct Prejudicial to PNG
Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these By-Laws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law."
<< <i>This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon ... any non-member affiliated with any entity that ... employs, a PNG member. >>
I know this is a tangent, but I'm wondering about the mechanism which would allow PNG to be able to enforce their code of ethics on a non-member who happened to work at the same place a PNG member was employed.
Just curious, that's all. Seems like it would be a difficult thing to do.
Anyone adding to the fund? I like the idea.
I could give you some names that would pin your ears back........
But I got no hard evidence , no proof
I don't need the names of the alleged guilty parties , I need the means by which to identify their products
and if the percentage of doctored coins is very , very small
then can't I expect PCGS to provide me a slab that has an un-doctored coin in it ?
Then all this business about doctoring becomes something I don't have to worry about - AT ALL
and if I already have doctored coins in my PCGS holdings - then PCGS is gonna fix that too , they will pay me a fair price for them .
So what am I worried about ?
<< <i>..anybody could throw name's out there ;
I could give you some names that would pin your ears back........
But I got no hard evidence , no proof
I don't need the names of the alleged guilty parties , I need the means by which to identify their products
and if the percentage of doctored coins is very , very small
then can't I expect PCGS to provide me a slab that has an un-doctored coin in it ?
Then all this business about doctoring becomes something I don't have to worry about - AT ALL
and if I already have doctored coins in my PCGS holdings - then PCGS is gonna fix that too , they will pay me a fair price for them .
So what am I worried about ? >>
PawPaul--If you are correct and if the percentage is very very small, then this may be the best way to proceed. It is the way the market is currently proceeding.
But if there are many doctored coins out there, if the coin doctors are winning, then something else needs to be done, either by honest dealers or by the national organizations. At the ANA summer conference, there is a course offered on the detection of counterfeit and altered coins. Great course! During one or both of the years I took that course, 5 or 6 years ago, we spoke anonymously to a coin doctor, maybe a recovered coin doctor, for about one hour on the phone. His voice was disguised as I recall. I recall him saying that the doctors are out there in some force and that they stay a step ahead of the TPGs. He said that a high percentage of high end proof gold had been played with and that a lot of high end coins in holders were also doctored. That conversation stuck with me and I happen to think that he was telling the truth. And if he was truthful, then more needs to be done.
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>
"PNG Code of Ethics
Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
.......
7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.
.....
Binding Effect
This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
Conduct Prejudicial to PNG
Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these By-Laws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law." >>
I didn't know that PNG had this and it's pretty good. I'm actually surprised that no one has reported an alleged violator who is also a PNG member. In lookng further, maybe it is because of section 14 which requires members also to:
14. To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
Section 14 seems to bring things back to the normal legal standard that govern lawsuits and still subjects complainers to civil suit . Still, the language you quoted isn't bad and as I said I'm surprised no one has acted on it.
ANA has similar language in its ethics rules.
In looking at PNG's website further, they also have a collector Bill of Rights which contains the same or similar language that you quoted. Section says that PNG dealers provide this assurance to collectors:
4) Not [to] sell counterfeit, altered or repaired items without full disclosure to the buyer.
So theoretically, a non-PNG member collector could complain as well. There is a reference to PNG arbitration but nothing to explain what those rules are.
So I think that is pretty good, but they could be better. For example, PNG could also require its members to affirmatively report doctored coins or coin doctors to PNG for resolution. They could better define doctoring as it appears they are attempting to do and they could strengthen their by-laws to insist that members understand that they no longer tolerate the dealing in or handling of doctored coins. They could set up or define a complaint and/or disputes mechanism with the understanding that those who file in good faith a compliant or report are immune from suit. They could keep those reports confidential so as not to harm those found not responsible, either premanently or until a final determination was made. ANA could do the same. Then PNG and ANA could rightly claim to be the standard bearers for the coin collecting hobby in ensuring that it is reliable and safe for collectors and investors ( or at least safer).
Tom
<< <i><< This site attracts the more knowlegeable collector to start with. >>
No, it doesn't.
Yep, you cleared that up. >>
CU often attracts the inquisitive and dignified collector, but knowledgeable doesn't always go along with that.
I've always felt that there are four types of people on these boards:
1) People open to new knowledge and ideas. These people come to CU with little or limited knowledge to start with, but are often inquisitive and insightful. With time, these people can become very well versed in their areas of interest.
2) People who have read the Redbook and frequently post on CU, and therefore think they are numismatically "enlightened" and self-professed experts. These types think they can understand the big picture without having much first-hand experience.
3) Genuine experts in particular fields.
4) Rabble-rousers.
1 is the majority. 3 is shrinking and 2 is growing. 4 is often a radical version of 2.
While I believe you are genuine in your hatred of coin doctoring and in your support of Laura Sperber, I don't think you have much first hand experience with doctored coins. Don't get me wrong--I'm opposed to coin doctoring--but the way it's portrayed by this forum and by Legend is very sensationalized compared to the legitimate severity of the issue as it currently stands. Is it a challenge to find great material in the coin market? Often times it can be. However, it's not as if 95 out of 100 coins is "dreck."
If you talked to all the dealers at the Boston ANA, probably a third would respond "huh?" if you asked them about the PCGS lawsuit----they aren't even aware of it. Another third would be aware but not be very well informed. The remainder may have been following it closely, but what do you expect them to do, start blogs like Legend and further sensationalize an issue which doesn't need it any further?
The problem is certainly being battled. New technologies by PCGS will definitely cut down the number of coins being doctored. Growing public sentiment against doctored coins will certainly cut back the number of amateur doctors that are just starting. But here's my two cents. If Legend wants to be a public leader in the fight against doctored coins, then show the public what doctored coins look like. If you can write about the millions of dollars worth of coins you sell on a regular basis, then why not put in $50k or $100k to put together a case of doctored coins you could display at each show. Put in a fake full head SLQ, some puttied material, fake split bands on a merc, some artificially toned coins, a shoe-shined bust dollar, etc etc. This way you can help show the public what these forms of doctoring can look like (and in some situations, how deceptive they can be). If anything, it will at least help some folks realize they need to better educate themselves. And without a doubt it will attract many more people to your table at coin shows.
how true your words ring ; even if 1/10 th of one percent of all the TPG's coins have been messed with ,
it would still amount to many ten of thousands of coins ............
whatever can be done , should be done
wow - after the weekends , interest in threads such as this one usually trail off ........
But may I say your comments and those of TPRC sure wind up this discussion with really exceptional thoughts .....thank you both
I don't think PCGS or NGC would appreciate the advertising of such coins if still slabbed. After all, they are just as big a hurry to get such coins off the market themselves. Now if we're talking only raw coins then such a display could be beneficial, at least to educate the public. But one would have to wonder where the dealer got such coins? Certainly the TPG's wouldn't want to let out their "failures" for the market to see. And a dealer showing a lot of doctored coins might then also be associated with them somehow, esp. from new people entering the hobby. How about buying priceless autographs from a dealer who makes it a habit of showing dozens of fakes at each convention they attend? Might not be the best course for building an airtight reputation. I would hope that any coins that get full heads or split bands are defaced/destroyed and removed from the hobby entirely. But then again I don't know what actually happens to a $10,000 FH SLQ that is found to have maneuvered metal. It shouldn't be let back into the market place only to fool someone else down the road.
roadrunner
"I don't think PCGS or NGC would appreciate the advertising of such coins if still slabbed. "
So who is trying to please them?
The point here is education. They need a little of that, too. Who doesn't?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up.
<< <i>I think its funny that all everyone here can do is point fingers. Has anyone offered to help Laura? Anyone added to the fund?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up. >>
Red Herring. Nobody is going to name names. Showboating. Grandstanding. Attention getting.
It worked.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think its funny that all everyone here can do is point fingers. Has anyone offered to help Laura? Anyone added to the fund?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up. >>
Red Herring. Nobody is going to name names. Showboating. Grandstanding. Attention getting.
It worked.
John >>
Personally, I think that bringing attention to, and keeping it focused on this matter is a good thing. If you don't like the way Laura is doing things, why not do them differently and better yourself. Or do you not care about it?
I generally don't care one way or the other. I live outside the United States and don't get to go to coin shows and am very hesitant to purchase any of the coins that I would like to add to my collection via ebay or internet from 8000 nautical miles away and not being able to recoup any nefarious transactions which this thread certainly indicates the industry is fraught with. Consequently a lot of sellers don't necessarily want to ship a $10,000 or $20,000 coin to an overseas or FPO address.
But I recognize grandstanding when I see it. While I'm not a major player in the coin world my family obtained some years ago a large book collection which contained some amazing rarities. My family has sold some items and had done authentications and has paid for expert opinions. Let me tell you that your expert opinion is relative to how much money you spend in some cases.
That industry is ate up with crooks. Took years for us to get a one book returned via the Federal Court system from a dealer who sold the thing for about a million dollars with a forged signature from my father and then claimed the book was a forgery and oh by the way part of their deal stated if the book was a forgery he kept the book and they kept his $25,000 retainer. He made a million dollars they made $25,000. Guess he didn't figure they'd sue and win and make him lose his house and business.
I see no difference between most book dealers and most coin dealers. Most will do or say anything to make a dollar. Before you guys start beating me up I also know there are good book dealers and good coin dealers. Make that great book dealers and great coin dealers. But it takes years of relationship building and direct contact with the industry to learn the players. Again, I live outside the country and can't do this currently. But I see this for what it is. That you may see it as something entirely different I recognize and respect that and will concede that you know the players in the game way better than I do. However, I as the customer get to pick and choose the dealer I use and tactics such as Legend uses smack way too similar to what I've experienced in the rare book world. Cynical? Yes.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
1, You can not name the names, you will be sued
2, You can not put up a list of doctored coins coming to auction, you may call a doctored coin that is not and then the seller would be out to sue you.
3. Someone could put out a display of certified coins that got graded even though they were docotored- I bet that would get a few presidents a little worked up.
About all you can do is preach from the pulpit that doctored coins exist and give no real examples.
At this point i guess CAC is a collectors best friend, to bad they do not list certificate numbers of those coins that do not recieve the bean.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think its funny that all everyone here can do is point fingers. Has anyone offered to help Laura? Anyone added to the fund?
Say what you want, the girl put her money up. >>
Red Herring. Nobody is going to name names. Showboating. Grandstanding. Attention getting.
It worked.
John >>
Personally, I think that bringing attention to, and keeping it focused on this matter is a good thing. If you don't like the way Laura is doing things, why not do them differently and better yourself. Or do you not care about it? >>
Consider any other industry....
Airline
After every aeronautic trade show Legend Aeronautics posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these other airlines crash planes, lose bags, and have rude flight attendants. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
Automotive
After every automotive trade show Legend Cars posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these other manufacturers build crappy cars, have horrible warranties, and shouldn't be allowed to sell cars to the public. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
Electronics
After every E3 Legend Electronics posts: "I just can't stand it anymore. All these others computer makers are making inferior computers. They cost too much money, they fail all the time, and they can't do half of what ours can. I'm so tempted to name names, but I'll just complain about it some more."
So, please...
If it isn't coin doctoring, its "dreck". If it isn't "dreck", its 'great show for those selling the highest end material - but everyone selling lower end material had a bad show'. Maybe she is passionate about the problems she sees in the industry. But, a constant posting of content that amounts 99% rant and 1% information will eventually be recognized by all for what it is. Pointless.
Stop faulting, bellyaching, and whining & start researching, educating, and achieving.
<< <i>Oh geeeez. For YEARS Laura has been the only voice in the crowd harping on coin doctors. She not some Johnny come lately grandstanding and using it to gain business. >>
Sez the guy in business with her.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>Sez the guy in business with her. >>
With all due respect, the truthfullness of a claim isn't based on who makes it.
what would you do over there in Japan with the names of coin Doctors ?
<< <i>
<< <i>Oh geeeez. For YEARS Laura has been the only voice in the crowd harping on coin doctors. She not some Johnny come lately grandstanding and using it to gain business. >>
Sez the guy in business with her.
John >>
John, I'm not in business with Legend. And I have discussed the coin doctoring problem with them/Laura and seen her and TDN speak out publicly against it for years. I have done the same, just not quite as passionately as Laura.
I know you're not in business with them and I hope you didn't think I was thinking that you were. I was responding to TDN's post. I concede that both of you guys are the good guys and well known experts. I wouldn't even begin to question that.
I'm just referring to dealer tactics. I think I've been around the boards for 4 or 5 years and I don't think I've ever heard anybody say one bad thing about either of you regarding expertise.
I've just got an opinion on this as have another 100 or so people who have posted in this thread and unfortunately I have too much time on my hands this morning. One of the shipboard aircraft landing systems I'm supposed to be some kind of guru on is down on some tiny little beautiful remote sub tropical island off of Okinawa and I'm sitting in a fine little resort hotel waiting on a box from Fed Ex with repair parts that won't be here for several days. All I have in this world right now is a whole lot of time and an internet connection and a strong opinion.
A dangerous combination. However about 2 miles uphill from me is a mountain with hundreds of steps on it. I'm going to walk to the mountain in this 90+ degree heat and 100% relative humidity and climb those hundreds of steps. I shall then retire to the pool with an icy cold Orion beer.
I mean no harm guys and I am on your side on the issue. I just have issue with the way its presented. It doesn't seem like it can succeed.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>...shipboard aircraft landing systems.... >>
you have the wrong avatar...
<< <i>Now we're up to $1,200 Oreville including you're $100, my $100 & her $1,000. >>
Anyone else like to add to the pot?
Laura can sell a million dollar coin one second and still sit and talk to me while I am buying a 79S MS67 Morgan. She has a passion for coins as strong as anyone I know.
I have spoken to her about what she has written. Before you all make comments that are baseless, maybe you should talk to her. That goes for everyone here.
She has taken a lot of unfair heat from both collectors and dealers about this subject. I highly doubt this subject would ever have been brought out if it were not for her. All everyone here does is sit their chairs, probably drink beer, and type so they can act like a hero (unless of course you are a coin doc-then you just attack).
<< <i>All everyone here does is sit their chairs, probably drink beer, and type so they can act like a hero (unless of course you are a coin doc-then you just attack). >>
Dave, you're obsessed. Why don't you take a breather from continuing to make a big fool out of yourself, and contribute to one of the other threads, here. You've got 99 posts, to date, and they're all on this subject, since your join month, May. You're leading with your chin, pal. Let this thing have its course. You're the new member who initially alerted us to this complaint, and we give you a hearty, hero's welcome for that. If there's any substantive merit to the serious allegations, therein, you'll and we'll find out, I predict, in just under a month from now. Be patient. I understand it's a virtue.
<<Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.>>
Obviously Mark's right soley by your use of "everyone". Chill dude.