In my experience with these coins, I could not even get interested in many of the errors at all. The only ones I saved are WDDR'S 001,002,and 006. I have searched over 200 rolls and still have most of the other coins (containing the other errors) set aside to look at some winter day when I feel like it.
I went through about 20 boxes and threw the culls in with a US mint burlap bag they were selling a years ago that have about 60 rolls of the westward journey nickles. I about took them all to the bank but lost interest in recovering their value so they are just sitting on a shelf toning nicely.
Just bought more boxes on the bay.....hope these don't become too popular for awhile so I can build up my inventory for very little investment. I saw a raw wddr-006 (skeleton finger) on ebay for $10. $10???
for the best and rarest of all???? (not mine btw) mind boggling!!!! I would buy it but I can buy the boxes still of the date that contains these for just a little more, which will yield about 5 of these. So, Mr. and
Mrs. Detractor, keep bashing and snickering at us "misguided, overly optimistic, irrational" collectors of these. I love it!
<< <i>Just bought more boxes on the bay.....hope these don't become too popular for awhile so I can build up my inventory for very little investment. I saw a raw wddr-006 (skeleton finger) on ebay for $10. $10???
for the best and rarest of all???? (not mine btw) mind boggling!!!! I would buy it but I can buy the boxes still of the date that contains these for just a little more, which will yield about 5 of these. So, Mr. and
Mrs. Detractor, keep bashing and snickering at us "misguided, overly optimistic, irrational" collectors of these. I love it! >>
Perfect example of what I'm talking about....sometimes "experience" in numismatics doesn't always translate into foresight. Looking back at the classic
coins is much easier. Projecting future worth of the modern errors is a bit of a crapshoot, a gamble that I'm willing to take when it comes to these particular error cents.
Interesting that when you join the forum everyone says but the minute you voice an opinion, the feedback is anything but welcoming.
19Lyds, I hope you were the buyer of that coin you posted.....a giveaway of what will become the key error in the series in years to come....imho
<< <i>Perfect example of what I'm talking about....sometimes "experience" in numismatics doesn't always translate into foresight. Looking back at the classic
coins is much easier. Projecting future worth of the modern errors is a bit of a crapshoot, a gamble that I'm willing to take when it comes to these particular error cents.
Interesting that when you join the forum everyone says but the minute you voice an opinion, the feedback is anything but welcoming.
19Lyds, I hope you were the buyer of that coin you posted.....a giveaway of what will become the key error in the series in years to come....imho >>
19lyds he has had a negative attitude on these since they came out. I think he is upset because none will list his Ike errors.
Just looked at THIS link.....Mr. Wexler sure must be tired of looking at Lincolns dated '09. There are probably fewer minted WITHOUT some type of doubled die than WITH a doubled die.
There are, as you rightly point out, a ridiculous amount of varieties attributed to the formative cents. There have been several supporters of the recognition by the various coin publications and the grading
companies that have specifically said (and I agree) that there are only a handful (perhaps five) that should be the key errors out of the myriad "discovered". The 001, 002, and the 006 being the top three and
the one's I would champion. I have thick skin so don't misunderstand my statement about feeling welcome on this forum. 19Lyds is a very respected member here and we just happen to disagree about this
subject. There have been many subjects in the past that I have followed through the years that I totally agree with him on. I don't collect Ikes so the variety that he has championed I'm not familiar with. That
said, when a person, any person, like 19Lyds that is passionate about his personal collection and wanting to have a variety identified and acknowledged by the same publications and grading companies, you
would hope that he or she would be a little more understanding of someone else's passion. Agree or disagree with me, no problem, we're all adults and as I have stated before, debate is good for the hobby. I
just would like to see a bit more effort given to make a compelling argument for or against than simply saying things like "you're gonna get rich...heh, heh" or what I refer to as trying for a "Touche" moment at
someone else's expense. I know that my post count is viewed by some as inadequate to be taken seriously on this forum. I sincerely hope that I can have a voice here and that whenever I want to participate in
a discussion on any subject that interests me that I will be given the respect as a fellow numistatist to at least be heard without prejudice. I also sincerely hope that all of you that read this understand that I
respect your opinions and really enjoy reading the various subjects that are presented on a daily basis.
Wow, this thread has been going on for a long time. I think its great that 19lyds has been instrumental in keeping it going though he disagrees with its purpose-------------------BigE
A herd of buffalo walked into a bar. A cowboy says "dang, that's alot of buffalo" the sheriff (who's authority is never questioned by the townfolk), sitting in the corner enjoying a sasparilla, looks up with a
quizzacle stare, eyebrows raised, forehead deeply furrowed and says in a slow drawl "yeah sir, that's alot of buffalo but we ain't huntin' buffalo, we's huntin' deer and bear this time a year". The cowboys all
nodded in agreement ("Got that right sheriff") and went back to sippin' their beers and whiskey. Then a somewhat quiet voice was heard in the back of the bar, hidden in the dark. It said "but sheriff, these is a
whole herd that's just ripe for the pickin'! Not often ya sees this happen, don't ya think we should...." The sheriff cuts him off mid-sentence. "Greenhorn, I'll says what's to be done about these buffalo, and I
says "I don't see no buffalo right here! When you've hunted as long as I's has, you only hunt what the law says and let go the rest!" The rest of the cowboys just chuckled that the greenhorn thought to
question the sheriff. The greenhorn fell silent in the dark. So, the buffalo all took their orders to go and were never seen again.....moral of the story, ya had the buffalo right there in your sights, coulda been
eatin' buffalo burgers and had some fancy coats made outa buffalo hide... but the sheriff said to ignore them... so the buffalo roamed to the next town and the next bar where those cowboys (and cowgirls) had a
feast because the townfolk here were only interested in deer and bear this time a year.... the end?
<< <i>There are, as you rightly point out, a ridiculous amount of varieties attributed to the formative cents. There have been several supporters of the recognition by the various coin publications and the grading
companies that have specifically said (and I agree) that there are only a handful (perhaps five) that should be the key errors out of the myriad "discovered". The 001, 002, and the 006 being the top three and
the one's I would champion. I have thick skin so don't misunderstand my statement about feeling welcome on this forum. 19Lyds is a very respected member here and we just happen to disagree about this
subject. There have been many subjects in the past that I have followed through the years that I totally agree with him on. I don't collect Ikes so the variety that he has championed I'm not familiar with. That
said, when a person, any person, like 19Lyds that is passionate about his personal collection and wanting to have a variety identified and acknowledged by the same publications and grading companies, you
would hope that he or she would be a little more understanding of someone else's passion. Agree or disagree with me, no problem, we're all adults and as I have stated before, debate is good for the hobby. I
just would like to see a bit more effort given to make a compelling argument for or against than simply saying things like "you're gonna get rich...heh, heh" or what I refer to as trying for a "Touche" moment at
someone else's expense. I know that my post count is viewed by some as inadequate to be taken seriously on this forum. I sincerely hope that I can have a voice here and that whenever I want to participate in
a discussion on any subject that interests me that I will be given the respect as a fellow numistatist to at least be heard without prejudice. I also sincerely hope that all of you that read this understand that I
respect your opinions and really enjoy reading the various subjects that are presented on a daily basis. >>
Very well put and you are welcome here and I do appreciate your posts.
Thank you Pitboss. I'll try to always be a positive voice on the forum. I will also try to help get these coins (formative errors) recognized as they rightly should be.
Onedollarnohollar, you are very welcome here and it is great to have another voice on this forum and a supporter of the 2009 FY DDRs. There has been quite a bit of discussion on these boards regarding these coins. They have their supporters and they have quite a few naysayers. But the truth is, both sides do make their points. There is and always will be an "old guard" that is only interested in doubled dies from prior minting processes and will never consider the modern tilted hub doubled die a true doubled die. Believe me, there have been threads too regarding this debate. To them, only the '55, '72, and even '95 for example are worthy. Yes, they are truly worthy, signficant, and the classic doubling of the date. But in today's minting process, those days are gone. What is very interesting to me on the FY DDRs is per the unique design, the central portion of the reverse is an area (abe's finger) that lends it self to a pretty dramatic doubling. It is not some blip or extra branch of a tree as found on the Minnesota quarters, which I still have a hard time figuring out what is doubled on those coins (it is just another branch). This design will not be repeated and the Lincoln cent collectors far outweigh those who collect, or even are done collecting the MN quarters. What do we have now? Some doubling of a shield possibly in the years to come? No, the 2009 FY made a splash for variety collectors, and that created waves of those who are for them and those who are against them. Then there is the camp that just yawns, and to each their own.
Hello, just thought I'd bring this thread back today...don't want it to go into hibernation. This is one of the most important topics to me. I know that many of you have contributed to this long thread, but it
would be nice to hear from you again to reiterate your thoughts on this subject, pro or con. Looking forward to your input.
I had 20 sets and was lucky enough to find the 2 coins. I sent them in to ANACS immediately for grading and came back with both MS69 WDDR 001. One of them looks different though with the doubling going through on to the back of the hand and the other one does not.
I guess I ordered mine at the right time as I have heard of very few of these found.
<< <i> They have their supporters and they have quite a few naysayers. But the truth is, both sides do make their points. There is and always will be an "old guard" that is only interested in doubled dies from prior minting processes and will never consider the modern tilted hub doubled die a true doubled die. Believe me, there have been threads too regarding this debate. To them, only the '55, '72, and even '95 for example are worthy. Yes, they are truly worthy, signficant, and the classic doubling of the date. But in today's minting process, those days are gone. >>
You started with a good point but you it muddled. No one on the board is anti-09DDR because of how they were made. Most experts understand the single squeeze doubling method by now. The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). Due to the popularity of the penny, the bar for marketable coins is lower than most other series(84 Dub-ear anyone) and if a new cent came out that had definable doubled detail like extra letters or body parts it would catch mainstream pretty quickly. All coins are made form a unique set of dies(vam) and it only make a difference if it is a big difference which most people would say a tiny blob of metal by old Abe's hand is not.
It is known that I think these are very minor but I will finish with you have an uphill battle as most modern errors market cycles tend to have a frenzy early that quickly dies down and settles(extra leafs) or goes away (speared buffalo). These came out with a spark but quickly fizzled before ever really going through a boom. I am not saying people will never care I am just saying if they didn't care at first it is going to be hard to change their minds as the lack of interest isn't because collectors don't know about them.
<< <i>The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). >>
I understand what you're saying. But unless you have Bionic Vision, I challenge you to see the detail on any Lincoln cent without magnification.
The 1960 & 1970 Sm/Lg dates have no Wow factor, and require magnification to be verified, and they're 3 figure coins.
Now don't jump all over me saying there's no comparison. The point I was making, it can't be absolutely identified with the naked eye. So a loupe is required, so what?
As far as being "common", I say great! The average collector can participate and not mortgage the house.
I don't care if it's a 4 figure value. I paid 1c, and if it's worth $10....Yahoo
<< <i> They have their supporters and they have quite a few naysayers. But the truth is, both sides do make their points. There is and always will be an "old guard" that is only interested in doubled dies from prior minting processes and will never consider the modern tilted hub doubled die a true doubled die. Believe me, there have been threads too regarding this debate. To them, only the '55, '72, and even '95 for example are worthy. Yes, they are truly worthy, signficant, and the classic doubling of the date. But in today's minting process, those days are gone. >>
You started with a good point but you it muddled. No one on the board is anti-09DDR because of how they were made. Most experts understand the single squeeze doubling method by now. The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). Due to the popularity of the penny, the bar for marketable coins is lower than most other series(84 Dub-ear anyone) and if a new cent came out that had definable doubled detail like extra letters or body parts it would catch mainstream pretty quickly. All coins are made form a unique set of dies(vam) and it only make a difference if it is a big difference which most people would say a tiny blob of metal by old Abe's hand is not.
It is known that I think these are very minor but I will finish with you have an uphill battle as most modern errors market cycles tend to have a frenzy early that quickly dies down and settles(extra leafs) or goes away (speared buffalo). These came out with a spark but quickly fizzled before ever really going through a boom. I am not saying people will never care I am just saying if they didn't care at first it is going to be hard to change their minds as the lack of interest isn't because collectors don't know about them. >>
Well I guess where we differ greatly, and the point I was trying to make in this post and believe I have made fully in many other posts is to me, these extra fingers (especially Skeleton Finger) do have the "WOW" factor. They are more than an extra branch on a tree, more than a doubled ear, and although not classic like a date, more than many doubled dates or mintmarks on many doubled dies for various denoms over the years. They are far more interesting to me than a close or wide AM etc. Now, yes, the key to some of the high values to the AM's are scarcity. But as far as interest factor, I just do not have it. So to me, they do have the WOW factor, but what makes people say "wow" or "cool" are different to each person. You do not see the WOW, and I do. That is the difference.
Wide and narrow AM's have no interest to me but if someone wants to collect them it is fine with me and I will not knock them for it or trivialize there existence.
Just opened a 4/28 box and there was a wddr-005 on the end of the p roll. Should I break open the roll to see what else I can find or should I keep it intact? Which would sell for more on Ebay, the individual
<< <i>Where were you people selling your coins before Ebay; "The National Garage Sale"?
To think Ebay is the "be all to end all", gets old.
The economy sucks, it's summertime, no one is buying & nothing is selling.
Why do you think they're allowing 100 free listings?
I'd wait until holiday season. Even then if it doesn't sell for 3 figures, the poo-poo'ers will poo-poo them. >>
Before eBay the only way to pump and promote were the coin mags. The market doesn't lie and the weak prices or non-existant in this case is a sign of the demand or lack of demand. Basically noone cares. Collect what you want but constantly pumping these "varieties" is getting old imho. I have several of each variety that I found in the LP2 boxes and enjoyed the initial excitement as did others but without NGC and PCGS affirmation of these as varieties they are just pocket change. Even if they did recognize them they would be the only one who would make money from them from their grading fees. Peace out.
Well, I broke down and got ahold of a box dated 5-1 and a couple boxes from 4-28.
The 5-1 yielded 5 cDDR-005 (one of which ,luckily, was the highest grade coin in the roll).
I also found about 30 that have the same reverse die which is either a minor trail die or just die scratched to death. I need to see if I can get some nice pics or scans to post here for more expert opinions. The "trails" come off of the "O" "N" of one cent and are visible to the naked eye. Anybody else see any like this?
I haven't opened the 4-28's yet but will definitely open one. I'll probably hang on to the other and keep it sealed. My theory is that with so many boxes being opened and searched for errors, there may eventually be a nice premium for sealed originals some years down the road.
<< <i>Where were you people selling your coins before Ebay; "The National Garage Sale"?
To think Ebay is the "be all to end all", gets old.
The economy sucks, it's summertime, no one is buying & nothing is selling.
Why do you think they're allowing 100 free listings?
I'd wait until holiday season. Even then if it doesn't sell for 3 figures, the poo-poo'ers will poo-poo them. >>
...Ebay remains the best way to find out what a collector actually is willing to pay for a coin. Seeing a quote in a magazine of $1000 and not getting any hits when you offer it at $750 should tell you something (I will add I am NOT an Ebay fan BUT I do use them because of their exposure. I consider them a necessary evil)
...Yes, the economy sucks, but 90% of the country is still employed.....collectors ARE buying and selling....I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300.
...by 3 figures" I assume the non-sellers at .99 would sell at $1.05
...collect them because you are a collector..not because you expect to make a profit. Those weeks of searching through thousands of these was a great experience and I would love to do it again. It was just dumb of me to get involved in the forum generated hype and get so many graded. THAT was a waste...the coins were/are fun.
<< <i>...Yes, the economy sucks, but 90% of the country is still employed.....collectors ARE buying and selling....I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300. >>
Believe me; If business was that great, Ebay would NOT be giving 100 free listings to anyone.
Yes, people are working; but they're also afraid to spend, for fear that things will get worse.
My comments, directed towards the poo-poo'ers saying they'll never be worth anything. I say poo-poo to them.
<< <i>I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300. >>
Congrats!
Links?
I don't think the grading was a waste. We must be patient. >>
Maybe I misled you, the " two over $1300" were not DDR's but Gold Buffalo's and used just to illustrate that there is still buying going on in this sucky economy. The others were MS70 ASE's...I wouldn't even consider putting my DDR's out there now for fear of not even getting back my grading fees.
No doubt about it Boucharda, the demand is not there right now for these errors. Of course, the .99 coins that didn't sell were probably not the best of the ddr's, probably the more obscure minor varieties.
I have not sent any of my finds in for slabbing. I had stated before on this thread that I would wait patiently for these to be recognized by PCGS on their labels....and wait I will. Time will guage the
importance/value that these hold. Opinions are just that, opinions. I don't own a crystal ball and I'm not pyschic. I have hope however. Once the powers (grading companies, coin publications) that be
turn their thinking around and endorse the idea that there might be something to these minor (as some trivialize them currently) varieties, then we may see them jump in the collector society/universe' world.
Until then, reading this thread is akin to watching a tennis match' longest point in history....back and forth, lobs and smashes, drop shots and corners, maneuvering the opposition from end to end, but no
winning shots as the point goes on into the night. Patience and time will reveal the winners.
<< <i>No doubt about it Boucharda, the demand is not there right now for these errors. Of course, the .99 coins that didn't sell were probably not the best of the ddr's, probably the more obscure minor varieties.
I have not sent any of my finds in for slabbing. I had stated before on this thread that I would wait patiently for these to be recognized by PCGS on their labels....and wait I will. Time will guage the
importance/value that these hold. Opinions are just that, opinions. I don't own a crystal ball and I'm not pyschic. I have hope however. Once the powers (grading companies, coin publications) that be
turn their thinking around and endorse the idea that there might be something to these minor (as some trivialize them currently) varieties, then we may see them jump in the collector society/universe' world.
Until then, reading this thread is akin to watching a tennis match' longest point in history....back and forth, lobs and smashes, drop shots and corners, maneuvering the opposition from end to end, but no
winning shots as the point goes on into the night. Patience and time will reveal the winners. >>
Well said ! Great description; Tennis Match
I disagree with only the "minor varieties" mention.
I've said it before. Unless you have bionic vision, I dare anyone to see the detail in any of the 2009 designs without a loupe.
Although they maybe localized to the center of the coin; a 6 fingered Lincoln, to me , is a major variety.
I am not sorry that I sent in 80 to be graded when I did. I picked out the best ones I had (40 WDDR 001 and 40 WDDR 002's. I got 18 MS67's on the 001's and 17 MS67's on the 002's. I sold a few off which paid for all my grading and still hold 14 of each graded. The MS 63's,64's and 65's I sold off quickly and the balance of the 66's I have in stock. I did not send in any of my WDDR 006's for grading.
I too will hold off on any more grading until PCGS or NGC decides to recognize them. As ror all the other lesser varieties, they just sit unsearched for the present time.
"Although they maybe localized to the center of the coin; a 6 fingered Lincoln, to me , is a major variety."
For the life of me I cannot explain WHY this did not take off like a wildfire. Finding that skeleton finger, was like a major "wow!"for me ....How can that have gone nowhere and not get slabbed as such from the big two??? Can't figure it out BUT I still believe the whole interest in this issue is here on this board and nowhere else.
I have never even seen a picture of a slabbed DDR for sale in print in any coin magazine....seen 2010 clad quarters pf sets for 16.50, First Spouse Medals for $9 but zero wddr-001-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10's etc. ....more interest in a Bronze Medal???? Can't explain it....
Don't you have one of those 006's graded in MS67? I know someone has and I thought it was you. That is the only one that I know of. I did not get any of mine graded .
I am not a grader, however I would hazard a guess that I have a few wddr-006's that would make it into an ms67 slab. Just waiting for the right (hint, hint PCGS) slab to be available to me. I may even be
sitting on a top pop coin just waiting to be popped! Waiting for the sheriff and the boys to recognize the buffalo in the room...(see my story about twelve to fifteen responses back) Meanwhile, back to
In the interest of pushing this thread to the 1000 mark, here's my two cents on these coins.
1. I enjoy collecting error coins, but there are simply too many mini-varieties with these 2009 ddrs to make me care much.
2. For comparison, I think the 1995 DDO is an easier to identify error coin, better established, and GRADED ms65 & 66 examples of that can often be obtained in the $25-$50 range. That doesn't give me much hope for the immediate future of these little finger varieties.
3. I think Papi has it completely backwards -- there is no better market indicator than ebay. Sure, every now and then a coin will escape attention because of a timing issue or a bad listing, but a search for completed auctions gives a pretty accurate range of where things are.
I'm not criticizing those who are excited about these coins; it's great if you like them. I just don't see them breaking out of the minor variety that most collectors don't care about category.
Comments
In my experience with these coins, I could not even get interested in many of the errors at all. The only ones I saved are WDDR'S 001,002,and 006. I have searched over 200 rolls and still have most of the other coins (containing the other errors) set aside to look at some winter day when I feel like it.
for the best and rarest of all???? (not mine btw) mind boggling!!!! I would buy it but I can buy the boxes still of the date that contains these for just a little more, which will yield about 5 of these. So, Mr. and
Mrs. Detractor, keep bashing and snickering at us "misguided, overly optimistic, irrational" collectors of these. I love it!
<< <i>Just bought more boxes on the bay.....hope these don't become too popular for awhile so I can build up my inventory for very little investment. I saw a raw wddr-006 (skeleton finger) on ebay for $10. $10???
for the best and rarest of all???? (not mine btw) mind boggling!!!! I would buy it but I can buy the boxes still of the date that contains these for just a little more, which will yield about 5 of these. So, Mr. and
Mrs. Detractor, keep bashing and snickering at us "misguided, overly optimistic, irrational" collectors of these. I love it!
You're sure to make a killing!
The name is LEE!
coins is much easier. Projecting future worth of the modern errors is a bit of a crapshoot, a gamble that I'm willing to take when it comes to these particular error cents.
Interesting that when you join the forum everyone says
19Lyds, I hope you were the buyer of that coin you posted.....a giveaway of what will become the key error in the series in years to come....imho
<< <i>Perfect example of what I'm talking about....sometimes "experience" in numismatics doesn't always translate into foresight. Looking back at the classic
coins is much easier. Projecting future worth of the modern errors is a bit of a crapshoot, a gamble that I'm willing to take when it comes to these particular error cents.
Interesting that when you join the forum everyone says
19Lyds, I hope you were the buyer of that coin you posted.....a giveaway of what will become the key error in the series in years to come....imho
19lyds he has had a negative attitude on these since they came out. I think he is upset because none will list his Ike errors.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
In regard to Lee trying to get his Ikes recognized, there are just about more reported varieties of the '09 Lincolns than total Ikes minted.
BUT, collect what you like.
Interesting that when you join the forum everyone says
Thick skin is strongly suggested when you DO have an opinion......
companies that have specifically said (and I agree) that there are only a handful (perhaps five) that should be the key errors out of the myriad "discovered". The 001, 002, and the 006 being the top three and
the one's I would champion. I have thick skin so don't misunderstand my statement about feeling welcome on this forum. 19Lyds is a very respected member here and we just happen to disagree about this
subject. There have been many subjects in the past that I have followed through the years that I totally agree with him on. I don't collect Ikes so the variety that he has championed I'm not familiar with. That
said, when a person, any person, like 19Lyds that is passionate about his personal collection and wanting to have a variety identified and acknowledged by the same publications and grading companies, you
would hope that he or she would be a little more understanding of someone else's passion. Agree or disagree with me, no problem, we're all adults and as I have stated before, debate is good for the hobby. I
just would like to see a bit more effort given to make a compelling argument for or against than simply saying things like "you're gonna get rich...heh, heh" or what I refer to as trying for a "Touche" moment at
someone else's expense. I know that my post count is viewed by some as inadequate to be taken seriously on this forum. I sincerely hope that I can have a voice here and that whenever I want to participate in
a discussion on any subject that interests me that I will be given the respect as a fellow numistatist to at least be heard without prejudice. I also sincerely hope that all of you that read this understand that I
respect your opinions and really enjoy reading the various subjects that are presented on a daily basis.
<< <i>19lyds he has had a negative attitude on these since they came out. >>
You naivity and ignorance regarding my opinions on these is showing. Perhaps you should really research the threads before charging me?
The name is LEE!
quizzacle stare, eyebrows raised, forehead deeply furrowed and says in a slow drawl "yeah sir, that's alot of buffalo but we ain't huntin' buffalo, we's huntin' deer and bear this time a year". The cowboys all
nodded in agreement ("Got that right sheriff") and went back to sippin' their beers and whiskey. Then a somewhat quiet voice was heard in the back of the bar, hidden in the dark. It said "but sheriff, these is a
whole herd that's just ripe for the pickin'! Not often ya sees this happen, don't ya think we should...." The sheriff cuts him off mid-sentence. "Greenhorn, I'll says what's to be done about these buffalo, and I
says "I don't see no buffalo right here! When you've hunted as long as I's has, you only hunt what the law says and let go the rest!" The rest of the cowboys just chuckled that the greenhorn thought to
question the sheriff. The greenhorn fell silent in the dark. So, the buffalo all took their orders to go and were never seen again.....moral of the story, ya had the buffalo right there in your sights, coulda been
eatin' buffalo burgers and had some fancy coats made outa buffalo hide... but the sheriff said to ignore them... so the buffalo roamed to the next town and the next bar where those cowboys (and cowgirls) had a
feast because the townfolk here were only interested in deer and bear this time a year....
<< <i>There are, as you rightly point out, a ridiculous amount of varieties attributed to the formative cents. There have been several supporters of the recognition by the various coin publications and the grading
companies that have specifically said (and I agree) that there are only a handful (perhaps five) that should be the key errors out of the myriad "discovered". The 001, 002, and the 006 being the top three and
the one's I would champion. I have thick skin so don't misunderstand my statement about feeling welcome on this forum. 19Lyds is a very respected member here and we just happen to disagree about this
subject. There have been many subjects in the past that I have followed through the years that I totally agree with him on. I don't collect Ikes so the variety that he has championed I'm not familiar with. That
said, when a person, any person, like 19Lyds that is passionate about his personal collection and wanting to have a variety identified and acknowledged by the same publications and grading companies, you
would hope that he or she would be a little more understanding of someone else's passion. Agree or disagree with me, no problem, we're all adults and as I have stated before, debate is good for the hobby. I
just would like to see a bit more effort given to make a compelling argument for or against than simply saying things like "you're gonna get rich...heh, heh" or what I refer to as trying for a "Touche" moment at
someone else's expense. I know that my post count is viewed by some as inadequate to be taken seriously on this forum. I sincerely hope that I can have a voice here and that whenever I want to participate in
a discussion on any subject that interests me that I will be given the respect as a fellow numistatist to at least be heard without prejudice. I also sincerely hope that all of you that read this understand that I
respect your opinions and really enjoy reading the various subjects that are presented on a daily basis. >>
Very well put and you are welcome here and I do appreciate your posts.
would be nice to hear from you again to reiterate your thoughts on this subject, pro or con. Looking forward to your input.
I am very interested in how many of you have found the WDDR's in the proof sets.
I have 2 of them graded MS69 WDDR 001.s.
I had 20 sets and was lucky enough to find the 2 coins. I sent them in to ANACS immediately for grading and came back with both MS69 WDDR 001. One of them looks different though with the doubling going through on to the back of the hand and the other one does not.
I guess I ordered mine at the right time as I have heard of very few of these found.
I wish ANACS could tell me how many they graded.
<< <i> They have their supporters and they have quite a few naysayers. But the truth is, both sides do make their points. There is and always will be an "old guard" that is only interested in doubled dies from prior minting processes and will never consider the modern tilted hub doubled die a true doubled die. Believe me, there have been threads too regarding this debate. To them, only the '55, '72, and even '95 for example are worthy. Yes, they are truly worthy, signficant, and the classic doubling of the date. But in today's minting process, those days are gone. >>
You started with a good point but you it muddled. No one on the board is anti-09DDR because of how they were made. Most experts understand the single squeeze doubling method by now. The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). Due to the popularity of the penny, the bar for marketable coins is lower than most other series(84 Dub-ear anyone) and if a new cent came out that had definable doubled detail like extra letters or body parts it would catch mainstream pretty quickly. All coins are made form a unique set of dies(vam) and it only make a difference if it is a big difference which most people would say a tiny blob of metal by old Abe's hand is not.
It is known that I think these are very minor but I will finish with you have an uphill battle as most modern errors market cycles tend to have a frenzy early that quickly dies down and settles(extra leafs) or goes away (speared buffalo). These came out with a spark but quickly fizzled before ever really going through a boom. I am not saying people will never care I am just saying if they didn't care at first it is going to be hard to change their minds as the lack of interest isn't because collectors don't know about them.
I have the discovery piece of the 003; not that it matters to anyone but me. But I've never seen another 003 offered for sale.
<< <i>The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). >>
I understand what you're saying. But unless you have Bionic Vision, I challenge you to see the detail on any Lincoln cent without magnification.
The 1960 & 1970 Sm/Lg dates have no Wow factor, and require magnification to be verified, and they're 3 figure coins.
Now don't jump all over me saying there's no comparison. The point I was making, it can't be absolutely identified with the naked eye. So a loupe is required, so what?
As far as being "common", I say great! The average collector can participate and not mortgage the house.
I don't care if it's a 4 figure value. I paid 1c, and if it's worth $10....Yahoo
I also don't care if the price only goes to $10, I would just like to see more recognition for these coins,
<< <i>
<< <i> They have their supporters and they have quite a few naysayers. But the truth is, both sides do make their points. There is and always will be an "old guard" that is only interested in doubled dies from prior minting processes and will never consider the modern tilted hub doubled die a true doubled die. Believe me, there have been threads too regarding this debate. To them, only the '55, '72, and even '95 for example are worthy. Yes, they are truly worthy, signficant, and the classic doubling of the date. But in today's minting process, those days are gone. >>
You started with a good point but you it muddled. No one on the board is anti-09DDR because of how they were made. Most experts understand the single squeeze doubling method by now. The point us distracters are trying to make is that there is very little visual wow factor which is normally the driving factor in a verities value boost. The DC quarter DDR has been traded in the 4figuar range due to its wow factor and the fact that it has a proven market and it still doesn't make many lists. The cents DDR's are pretty common(strike one going against you) not impressive enough looking to make other collectors go take notice(strike two going against you) and have too many different versions(strike three going against you). Due to the popularity of the penny, the bar for marketable coins is lower than most other series(84 Dub-ear anyone) and if a new cent came out that had definable doubled detail like extra letters or body parts it would catch mainstream pretty quickly. All coins are made form a unique set of dies(vam) and it only make a difference if it is a big difference which most people would say a tiny blob of metal by old Abe's hand is not.
It is known that I think these are very minor but I will finish with you have an uphill battle as most modern errors market cycles tend to have a frenzy early that quickly dies down and settles(extra leafs) or goes away (speared buffalo). These came out with a spark but quickly fizzled before ever really going through a boom. I am not saying people will never care I am just saying if they didn't care at first it is going to be hard to change their minds as the lack of interest isn't because collectors don't know about them. >>
Well I guess where we differ greatly, and the point I was trying to make in this post and believe I have made fully in many other posts is to me, these extra fingers (especially Skeleton Finger) do have the "WOW" factor. They are more than an extra branch on a tree, more than a doubled ear, and although not classic like a date, more than many doubled dates or mintmarks on many doubled dies for various denoms over the years. They are far more interesting to me than a close or wide AM etc. Now, yes, the key to some of the high values to the AM's are scarcity. But as far as interest factor, I just do not have it. So to me, they do have the WOW factor, but what makes people say "wow" or "cool" are different to each person. You do not see the WOW, and I do. That is the difference.
Wide and narrow AM's have no interest to me but if someone wants to collect them it is fine with me and I will not knock them for it or trivialize there existence.
errors or the complete unopened roll?
So I guess it's your call....
To think Ebay is the "be all to end all", gets old.
The economy sucks, it's summertime, no one is buying & nothing is selling.
Why do you think they're allowing 100 free listings?
I'd wait until holiday season. Even then if it doesn't sell for 3 figures, the poo-poo'ers will poo-poo them.
<< <i>Where were you people selling your coins before Ebay; "The National Garage Sale"?
To think Ebay is the "be all to end all", gets old.
The economy sucks, it's summertime, no one is buying & nothing is selling.
Why do you think they're allowing 100 free listings?
I'd wait until holiday season. Even then if it doesn't sell for 3 figures, the poo-poo'ers will poo-poo them. >>
Before eBay the only way to pump and promote were the coin mags. The market doesn't lie and the weak prices or non-existant in this case is a sign of the demand or lack of demand. Basically noone cares. Collect what you want but constantly pumping these "varieties" is getting old imho. I have several of each variety that I found in the LP2 boxes and enjoyed the initial excitement as did others but without NGC and PCGS affirmation of these as varieties they are just pocket change. Even if they did recognize them they would be the only one who would make money from them from their grading fees. Peace out.
<< <i> Even if they did recognize them they would be the only one who would make money from them from their grading fees. Peace out. >>
The question is then again and again and again
How many figures does it take to be worth the time?
The 5-1 yielded 5 cDDR-005 (one of which ,luckily, was the highest grade coin in the roll).
I also found about 30 that have the same reverse die which is either a minor trail die or just die scratched to death. I need to
see if I can get some nice pics or scans to post here for more expert opinions. The "trails" come off of the "O" "N" of one cent
and are visible to the naked eye. Anybody else see any like this?
I haven't opened the 4-28's yet but will definitely open one. I'll probably hang on to the other and keep it sealed. My theory is that with so many boxes being opened and searched for errors, there may eventually be a nice premium for sealed originals some years down the road.
-mike
Congradulations on your finds. I dont know if I have any 005,s or not becausr I have not looked for any but am sure I do if I looked for them.
<< <i>Where were you people selling your coins before Ebay; "The National Garage Sale"?
To think Ebay is the "be all to end all", gets old.
The economy sucks, it's summertime, no one is buying & nothing is selling.
Why do you think they're allowing 100 free listings?
I'd wait until holiday season. Even then if it doesn't sell for 3 figures, the poo-poo'ers will poo-poo them. >>
...Ebay remains the best way to find out what a collector actually is willing to pay for a coin. Seeing a quote in a magazine of $1000 and not getting any hits when you offer it at $750 should tell you something (I will add I am NOT an Ebay fan BUT I do use them because of their exposure. I consider them a necessary evil)
...Yes, the economy sucks, but 90% of the country is still employed.....collectors ARE buying and selling....I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300.
...by 3 figures" I assume the non-sellers at .99 would sell at $1.05
...collect them because you are a collector..not because you expect to make a profit. Those weeks of searching through thousands of these was a great experience and I would love to do it again. It was just dumb of me to get involved in the forum generated hype and get so many graded. THAT was a waste...the coins were/are fun.
<< <i>I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300. >>
Congrats!
Links?
I don't think the grading was a waste. We must be patient.
<< <i>...Yes, the economy sucks, but 90% of the country is still employed.....collectors ARE buying and selling....I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300. >>
Believe me; If business was that great, Ebay would NOT be giving 100 free listings to anyone.
Yes, people are working; but they're also afraid to spend, for fear that things will get worse.
My comments, directed towards the poo-poo'ers saying they'll never be worth anything. I say poo-poo to them.
<< <i>
<< <i>I threw a bunch out there last week and they all were sucked up in 2 days., two being over $1300. >>
Congrats!
Links?
I don't think the grading was a waste. We must be patient. >>
Maybe I misled you, the " two over $1300" were not DDR's but Gold Buffalo's and used just to illustrate that there is still buying going on in this sucky economy. The others were MS70 ASE's...I wouldn't even consider putting my DDR's out there now for fear of not even getting back my grading fees.
I have not sent any of my finds in for slabbing. I had stated before on this thread that I would wait patiently for these to be recognized by PCGS on their labels....and wait I will. Time will guage the
importance/value that these hold. Opinions are just that, opinions. I don't own a crystal ball and I'm not pyschic. I have hope however. Once the powers (grading companies, coin publications) that be
turn their thinking around and endorse the idea that there might be something to these minor (as some trivialize them currently) varieties, then we may see them jump in the collector society/universe' world.
Until then, reading this thread is akin to watching a tennis match' longest point in history....back and forth, lobs and smashes, drop shots and corners, maneuvering the opposition from end to end, but no
winning shots as the point goes on into the night. Patience and time will reveal the winners.
<< <i>No doubt about it Boucharda, the demand is not there right now for these errors. Of course, the .99 coins that didn't sell were probably not the best of the ddr's, probably the more obscure minor varieties.
I have not sent any of my finds in for slabbing. I had stated before on this thread that I would wait patiently for these to be recognized by PCGS on their labels....and wait I will. Time will guage the
importance/value that these hold. Opinions are just that, opinions. I don't own a crystal ball and I'm not pyschic. I have hope however. Once the powers (grading companies, coin publications) that be
turn their thinking around and endorse the idea that there might be something to these minor (as some trivialize them currently) varieties, then we may see them jump in the collector society/universe' world.
Until then, reading this thread is akin to watching a tennis match' longest point in history....back and forth, lobs and smashes, drop shots and corners, maneuvering the opposition from end to end, but no
winning shots as the point goes on into the night. Patience and time will reveal the winners. >>
Well said ! Great description; Tennis Match
I disagree with only the "minor varieties" mention.
I've said it before. Unless you have bionic vision, I dare anyone to see the detail in any of the 2009 designs without a loupe.
Although they maybe localized to the center of the coin; a 6 fingered Lincoln, to me , is a major variety.
I am not sorry that I sent in 80 to be graded when I did. I picked out the best ones I had (40 WDDR 001 and 40 WDDR 002's. I got 18 MS67's on the 001's and 17 MS67's on the 002's. I sold a few off which paid for all my grading and still hold 14 of each graded. The MS 63's,64's and 65's I sold off quickly and the balance of the 66's I have in stock. I did not send in any of my WDDR 006's for grading.
I too will hold off on any more grading until PCGS or NGC decides to recognize them. As ror all the other lesser varieties, they just sit unsearched for the present time.
For the life of me I cannot explain WHY this did not take off like a wildfire. Finding that skeleton finger, was like a major "wow!"for me ....How can that have gone nowhere and not get slabbed as such from the big two??? Can't figure it out BUT I still believe the whole interest in this issue is here on this board and nowhere else.
I have never even seen a picture of a slabbed DDR for sale in print in any coin magazine....seen 2010 clad quarters pf sets for 16.50, First Spouse Medals for $9 but zero wddr-001-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10's etc. ....more interest in a Bronze Medal???? Can't explain it....
Don't you have one of those 006's graded in MS67? I know someone has and I thought it was you. That is the only one that I know of. I did not get any of mine graded .
I just checked ANACS pop report and came up with numbers that include all of the different DDR's lumped into one report.
8-MS63
28-MS64
282-MS65
575=MS66
353-MS67
14-MS68
They did not separate them by individual DDR numbers that I could see.
sitting on a top pop coin just waiting to be popped!
work.....
1. I enjoy collecting error coins, but there are simply too many mini-varieties with these 2009 ddrs to make me care much.
2. For comparison, I think the 1995 DDO is an easier to identify error coin, better established, and GRADED ms65 & 66 examples of that can often be obtained in the $25-$50 range. That doesn't give me much hope for the immediate future of these little finger varieties.
3. I think Papi has it completely backwards -- there is no better market indicator than ebay. Sure, every now and then a coin will escape attention because of a timing issue or a bad listing, but a search for completed auctions gives a pretty accurate range of where things are.
I'm not criticizing those who are excited about these coins; it's great if you like them. I just don't see them breaking out of the minor variety that most collectors don't care about category.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!