How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies cost you over the years?

kryptonitecomics · July 16, 2010 4:04AM

This isn't a bash your least favorite TPG posts.......this is a serious questions and it take into account the changes in grading standards over the years, changes in what qualifies as AT/NT, & changes in what is considered acceptable cleaning like a quick dip vs something of the more hard core variety. How has the ever changing scale personally affected you...this could be a positive impact like in the case of gradeflation...or it could be a negative caused by the tighening of standards etc.

I know personally I have been on the winning side (Old Holders) and more recently on the losing side due to the changes in what the top 2 tpgs now consider AT/NT/MA.

So as an example let say you have been collecting washington quarters for 30 years....your grading standards have remained fairly consistant over that period of time....you have seen the upswings and downswings when it comes to how a tpg grades your favorite series and you are completly in tune with those standards at the current time. You buy some raw examples at a local show and you are 99% certain of the grades that will be coming back when you submit based on a proven track record. Understanding that there certainly is a margain of error on both your part and the tpgs part......have the standards changed so dramatically over the years that you have been financially impacted by having coins come back higher or lower due to a very obvious change in grading standards? Are the changes typically more subtle over a couple months or years? What action do you take when you run into this scenario.....send in more coins if standards losen.....? Send in coins multiple times hoping for what you feel is the right grade in due time when standards tighten?

PerryHall · July 16, 2010 6:17AM

I can't imagine anyone keeping a running total over the years and still enjoy the hobby.

MrEureka · July 16, 2010 6:28AM

It's all good for me. Whatever they throw at us, it's my job to take advantage of it.

djdilliodon · July 16, 2010 6:40AM

I honestly cant complain (bet you never heard that one!). When i first played the slabbing game it cost me huge but once i started learning, everything fell into place. I never have any problems with toned coins being bagged ect but sometimes i do disagree with the grade (either to high or low) they assign from time to time. In the end your paying for an opinion and anytime i feel a coin is under graded i will crack it and give it a round 2 on my next submission (if its worth it of course).

coinguy1 · July 16, 2010 6:52AM

And the next question is "How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies made for you over the years?"

kryptonitecomics · July 16, 2010 10:55AM

<< And the next question is "How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies made for you over the years?"

>>

I stated at the beginning of the thread that members could post both positive stories related to gradeflation etc or negative stories...?

Bear · July 16, 2010 10:58AM

I can't stand it. It's Deja Vu all over again.

Fairlaneman · July 16, 2010 11:02AM

Actually now the standards are saving me money. I do not submit coins anymore and have got out of the collectors club.

Ken

coinkat · July 16, 2010 11:13AM

I really think the question should be stricken from the record-

Have standards really changed? No

This seems to be a classic issue of the unknown- and what can not be quantified into a number because of the SUBJECTIVE COMPONENT THAT EXISTS WITH GRADING.

Grading is not math and not science- it is an art and skill that is learned over years and years of practice.

Master the art and skill before you spend big money.

Please take two words from this that date back to a token from 1837

Take Responsibility

Mowgli · July 16, 2010 1:40PM

The question seems fair to me. Grading standards have changed. Independent of the toning issue some coins are graded more loosely than they used to be - maybe people feel it is more accurate this way but there was a time a Buffalo nickel needed a full horn to be VF - not any more. There were expectation of seeing four diamonds on Indian Head cents in order to reach a certain grade. Maybe strike weaknesses are accounted for so they made adjustments. Regardless, what goes for a VF Buffalo nickel today might not have made that grade 20 years ago - that seems like a change in standards to me.

crypto79 · July 16, 2010 1:55PM

Suspect that fans for flamboyant toners and blast white EF45 classics will have the most to say about this.

LotsoLuck · July 16, 2010 1:57PM

<< I can't imagine anyone keeping a running total over the years and still enjoy the hobby. >>

Boy aint that the truth

66Tbird · July 16, 2010 1:58PM

Sure, for a lot of series the standards have changed in cycles. Early in my collecting in bought a point below the price jump, and good for the grade material. (Like most of us did) The regrade game funded my collection basically. Pickings were easy and low fruit plentiful. It's still out there, just harder to find. To hard for me lately, I've moved on to other areas. It was a great ride that made a decent collection for me anyways.

PerryHall · July 16, 2010 5:41PM

<< Have standards really changed? No >>

Are you serious?

Elcontador · July 16, 2010 5:56PM

Color designations have changed in a big way. It used to be if an Unc. Large or Half Cent was 5-10% RD, it was put in a RB holder. You need closer to 25% now. Have fun cracking out a "just made RB" Half or Large Cent from an old holder, resubmitting it, and getting it back in a BN holder. Price differentials aren't that big a deal for late date Braided Hair Large Cents, but in MS 65, the further back you go, the more significant the spread betwen RB and BN.

I am seeing more contact marks on Miss Liberty's skirt in MS 65 Walkers now than before. Finding a no-problem MS 65 Cappped Bust Half now is a very rare occurence.

If you really don't think grading standards have changed, why is it that you only see ugly or liner coins in old holders? It's because the rest have upgraded.

I am also seeing more type coins now which I believe have been upgraded because of attractive eye appeal in MS 65 and MS 66 holders despite having contact marks which imo preclude such coins getting these grades.

coinkat · July 16, 2010 8:41PM

PerryHall:

I am serious-

The vast majority of collectors under estimate the subjective component associated with grading and that is usually the determining factor of a grade and often accounts for a bump up or down- collectors love to complain about inconsistent grading- but subjectivity can not be taken out of the process

Some coins just do not always fit into a numeric grading system without debate as to what is appropriate- that debate will always exist regardless of standards

CharlotteDude · July 16, 2010 9:34PM

None, really. Since I don't rely on the slab to determine a coin's actual grade (and in turn its value), the services have never cost me anything. Sure, I've enjoyed the benefits of grading "relaxations" over the past 20 years, and have probably cracked out and resubmitted at least 35-40 coins over the years, and all of the southern (C & D) mint, $3, or early gold varieties. All but one upgraded. That one was an 1857-S $3 gold which I'd bought raw and submitted/graded by PCGS as an XF-45. I cracked it out about 4-5 years later and submitted it to NGC. NGC non-graded it due to a small area of "residue", and recommended I submit to NCS for conservation. I did that, it was conserved, and NGC promptly graded it an AU-53. Problem was, it was my first experience with NCS conservation, and the process completely removed all the coin's original skin & color. I ended up with a coin that no longer had any character, and to me, looked lifeless. I sold that coin 2 months later. One might ask whether I lost money on it? The answer to that is "no"... I actually made about 6X my original purchase price ($850 X @ 6) for the coin.

'dude

ricko · July 16, 2010 10:10PM

No effect. I do not pursue environmentally damaged coins (tarnish), nor do I play the 'ultimate grade' game. I collect coins. Cheers, RickO

CertifiedGoldCoins · July 16, 2010 10:57PM

"How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies cost you over the years?"

Nothing. I've never owned a coin long enough for the standards to change while I owned it.

MrEureka · July 16, 2010 11:42PM

Have standards really changed? No

Even if the standards have not changed, the application of those standards certainly has.

LanLord · July 16, 2010 11:56PM

<<How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies cost you over the years?>>

Not a cent

I have never sold a single slabbed coin, and only about 4 or 5 coins total! I guess I'm a hoarder!

coinguy1 · July 17, 2010 12:00AM

<< <<How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies cost you over the years?>>

Not a cent

I have never sold a single slabbed coin, and only about 4 or 5 coins total! I guess I'm a hoarder! >>

The fact that you haven't sold, doesn't mean that grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies hasn't affected the value of your coins. It's just that it's a lot more difficult to know how you've been affected.

soty27 · July 17, 2010 12:03AM

<< I really think the question should be stricken from the record-

Have standards really changed? No

>>

This could not be futher from the truth. I suggest if this is honestly what you feel then you should spend some time talking to people who have submitted coins over the past 30 years.

coinkat · July 17, 2010 6:11AM

Soty27

While I welcome disagreement- please take my entire quote in context

What I wrote was this:

Have standards really changed? No

This seems to be a classic issue of the unknown- and what can not be quantified into a number because of the SUBJECTIVE COMPONENT THAT EXISTS WITH GRADING.

Grading is not math and not science- it is an art and skill that is learned over years and years of practice.

Master the art and skill before you spend big money.

Please take two words from this that date back to a token from 1837

Take Responsibility

I followed up with this commentary:

I am serious-

The vast majority of collectors under estimate the subjective component associated with grading and that is usually the determining factor of a grade and often accounts for a bump up or down- collectors love to complain about inconsistent grading- but subjectivity can not be taken out of the process

Some coins just do not always fit into a numeric grading system without debate as to what is appropriate- that debate will always exist regardless of standards

I have submitted coins since 1990- I talk with others that have submitted for years- I stand by what I wrote- I am not seeking approval for my thoughts nor do I expect others to agree with them-

PerryHall · July 17, 2010 7:40AM

Are there really any grading standards or are there just general guidelines? Every written standard that I've seen differentiating between the various Mint State grades is fairly vague.

kryptonitecomics · July 17, 2010 7:58AM

<< Are there really any grading standards or are there just general guidelines? Every written standard that I've seen differentiating between the various Mint State grades is fairly vague. >>

Bingo....it's not black and white but rather gray......and the color changes from time to time and it us up to collectors to adapt to that change or stop submitting....is there any other choice?

FredF · July 17, 2010 8:00AM

When did "Full Head" "Full Steps" "Full Bell Lines" "Full Torch" "Full Band" "Cameo" and "Deep/Ultra Cameo" designations arrive with the TPGs?

Since the OGH's didn't have all of these designations it seems that we have a definitive, objective example of how grading standards have changed at PCGS.

Secure Plus - that Plus is another objective example of how the standards have changed. A coin that is a 67+ would have come back in a 67 holder 6 months ago.

I know that the spirit of the original conversation was that the definition of what was a 65 for a washington quarter may have changed, and it may or may not have, but the hobby evolves, the people in the hobby evolve. It's not static. That's ok.

Where it can be a problem is if a coin is in a holder from a certain era at a 65, and the seller puts a 66 price on it because "grading was more conservative back then" - it can be frustrating if you want the coin and would buy it at 65 price but not at 66 price. But that can also happen if both buyer and seller agree on grade - if you don't like the price then don't buy it, and if you're a seller with a high price you always have the choice to lower the price to get the coin to move.

-Fred

Elcontador · July 18, 2010 6:03AM

If you really want to know how much grading standards have changed, crack out every purchase you've made in the last 10 years or longer and resubmit them. You may need a barfbag and some Pepto when the coins come back.

Not only have grading standards changed, but I'm guessing between 10-15% of Uncs. are 'liner' coins. Re the latter, even if you take the position that grading standards have not changed, the opinion of the graders on a particular day may be different than the day those coins were graded.

MrEureka · July 18, 2010 6:14AM

Are there really any grading standards or are there just general guidelines? Every written standard that I've seen differentiating between the various Mint State grades is fairly vague.

The TPG grading set is a standard, even if the application of the standard is an art.

On a related note, I wonder how many of the coins in the original grading sets remain. My guess is that virtually all are still there, and their grades have not changed. And that's why I say it's not so much that the standard has changed, but that the application of the standard has.

How much has grading standards fluctuations/inconsistencies cost you over the years?

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