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Are we being too hard on the Mint for discontinuing Proof silver eagles?
CaptHenway
Posts: 33,848 ✭✭✭✭✭
The Mint discontinued making Proof coins after 1942 for good reasons which no collector could object to.
It discontinued making Proof coins after 1964 for reasons which are at least plausible. You don't have to agree with the decision, but they did have an argument.
I will let RWB comment upon the discontinuance of Proofs in the mid-teens.
I certainly disagree with Mr. Moy's decision to discontinue the Proof silver and 22kt gold eagles, but if that is what his legal people told him he had to do, should we be so willing to tar and feather him for it?
TD
It discontinued making Proof coins after 1964 for reasons which are at least plausible. You don't have to agree with the decision, but they did have an argument.
I will let RWB comment upon the discontinuance of Proofs in the mid-teens.
I certainly disagree with Mr. Moy's decision to discontinue the Proof silver and 22kt gold eagles, but if that is what his legal people told him he had to do, should we be so willing to tar and feather him for it?
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
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IMHO, the DCarr option is NOT. As nice as they seem, they are not a true US legal tender collectible. I for one, am not willing to stick just anything into that hole.
Yes.
Running out of town on a rail seems like a nice idea as well!
The US Mint has always had high volume sales years yet seem to find a way to continue with the Proof SAE's and GAE's at the very minimum.
That is until Moy came to town. I don't think that the chosen 14 are going to stop ordering SAE's given the fact that the "world" has an insatiable desire for silver but to fall back on that "public demand" crap is just stupid since it is fully interpretational. The public (coin collectors) is "demanding" the proof versions of these coins yet the US Treasury's "Public of 14" has them turning a "deaf ear" to the real demands of the public.
The law, so proudly defended and used as a political crutch, DOES NOT state that the Secretary of the Treasury sell silver coins minted from the National Defense Stockpile to a select group of 14 distributers but Directs the Secretary to sell such coins "directly to the public" and to numismatic coin dealers and retailers for resale to the public at not less than the fair market value of their silver content on the day before the sale, plus the costs of minting, distributing, promoting, and marketing the coins."
SAE's and GAE's are the end result of Ronald Reagans attempt at selling the US Governments National Defense Stockpile of silver and gold, which was really no longer needed since silver was dropped from circulating coinage, to help balance the budget. That plan met quite a bit of resistance since obviously it would impact the prices on silver and gold were a large quantity to be suddenly made available on the market.
Modifications and amendments galore exist on the initial bill but in all that I've read, nowhere do I see anything that suggests the US Mint deal with only these 14 "clients" and interpret "their" orders as demand from the "public". The Treasury Department decided (well before the advent of the Internet and US Mint Web Sites) to deal with only a select few "qualified" bulk silver and gold dealers as distribution points for delivery to the public. From a business standpoint, it does make sense but I think they really need to modify their business plan since a lot has changed since 1986! The public can and does actually make their intentions and "demands" known through online ordering. (And Chat Boards!)
There is a lot more involved here than what meets the eye but the bottom line is that coin collectors (the public) are at the bottom heap as far as certain Treasury Officials see it. They only recognize their chosen 14 as the official distribution point and until that changes, we are at their mercy. It wil require someone to champion this cause and Mr. Moy ain't that person.
Yeah, tar, feathers, and a rail sounds pretty good. And perhaps we can send Mr. Moy's "Coin Renaissance" ideas out with him too since that idea seems to have just been a fart in the wind.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Yes.....for a series that is as widely collected as the Eagle series, it just makes no sense to just up and stop it, where there are obviously enough planchets (understood they are prepared differently, but the sheer quantity of silver for the bullion coins tells me they could make proof planchets). Looks like the Mint cares little for the collector, as there are now 2 empty holes in albums. Looks like DCarr's option is the only viable alternative now.
>>
<< <i>...IMHO, the DCarr option is NOT. As nice as they seem, they are not a true US legal tender collectible. I for one, am not willing to stick just anything into that hole. >>
I agree that my pieces, if released, would certainly not be for everyone. If somebody want's an ancillary collectible as part of their proof Silver Eagle set, then mine would be of interest. Any that I produce may or may not go up in value in the future. The mintages would be considerably smaller than the US Mint's proof numbers, but the demand would be much smaller as well, leading to a "thinner" and potentially more volatile market for them.
In other recent Silver Eagle threads here, some members objected to my plan (of modifying genuine bullion-issue 2009 Silver Eagles to look like 2009 proofs, with a "DC" mint mark). Ultimately, I think that product would be accepted for what it is, and would be widely and appropriately marketed (or not at all).
Ultimately, I had more than one goal in mind when initiating the project. I have only mentioned one ("A") previously. "B" was actually by biggest motivation.
A)
As a business venture (already mentioned).
I thought it would be "cool" to have a 2009 proof Silver Eagle and I wanted a couple for myself. I also viewed it as a challenge to see how good a proof Silver Eagle I could make. The best way to learn to identify a cleaned coin is to take some cheap original coins, clean them, and compare the before and after states. In this case, there is no better way to learn the characteristics of over-struck coins than to make some yourself (which leads to "C").
C)
I'm probably not the only one thinking of such a venture. Unlike some other potential producers, however, I'm planning to provide details on the characteristics of my pieces, so the study of them could help the numismatic community identify other coins modified using similar technology.
D) If my product is successful, it might sway the US Mint to commit more resources to the production of proof Silver Eagles.
PS:
My test pieces are legal tender, since they are genuine 2009 Silver Eagles. The "collectible" adjective is debatable, of course.
For those that didn't see the other thread, here are pictures again:
<< <i>I will let RWB comment upon the discontinuance of Proofs in the mid-teens. >>
There two reasons for this. The coin market was going through one of it's down cycles during this period, and the demand for coins in general was down. Collectors were also unhappy with the Matte Proof coins that were taking over each new design as it was coming on line. Why pay a premium for a Matte Proof Buffalo nickel when you could go down the bank and get something similar for face value?
In general I'm very disappointed that the mint can't provide these popular coins to collectors. They sell rolls of junk, spoons and commemoratives that we don't want with poor designs, but they can't keep up one of the most popular series in modern U.S. coins. What gives?
In addition, given the shenanigans of both rogue Mint employees (i.e. Sacagawea "mules") and Mint officials over the years, I think it is possible that there were some 2009 Proof silver eagles manufactured "for test purposes" and that someday these will come out of hiding and be worth a fortune, and I do not believe that such unethical activity should be rewarded.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
ceased production and/or have gaps; c'est la vie. For those that collect Proof ASEs can you not just study, research & enjoy
your collection as is; is there a reason the series must go on ad infinitum to appreciate a Proof ASE collection? Further, resorting
to ersatz 2009 Proof ASEs seems to me and maybe only to me a fantasy remedy to an imagined problem.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes.....for a series that is as widely collected as the Eagle series, it just makes no sense to just up and stop it, where there are obviously enough planchets (understood they are prepared differently, but the sheer quantity of silver for the bullion coins tells me they could make proof planchets). Looks like the Mint cares little for the collector, as there are now 2 empty holes in albums. Looks like DCarr's option is the only viable alternative now.
>>
<< <i>...IMHO, the DCarr option is NOT. As nice as they seem, they are not a true US legal tender collectible. I for one, am not willing to stick just anything into that hole. >>
I agree that my pieces, if released, would certainly not be for everyone. If somebody want's an ancillary collectible as part of their proof Silver Eagle set, then mine would be of interest. Any that I produce may or may not go up in value in the future. The mintages would be considerably smaller than the US Mint's proof numbers, but the demand would be much smaller as well, leading to a "thinner" and potentially more volatile market for them.
In other recent Silver Eagle threads here, some members objected to my plan (of modifying genuine bullion-issue 2009 Silver Eagles to look like 2009 proofs, with a "DC" mint mark). Ultimately, I think that product would be accepted for what it is, and would be widely and appropriately marketed (or not at all).
Ultimately, I had more than one goal in mind when initiating the project. I have only mentioned one ("A") previously. "B" was actually by biggest motivation.
A)
As a business venture (already mentioned).
I thought it would be "cool" to have a 2009 proof Silver Eagle and I wanted a couple for myself. I also viewed it as a challenge to see how good a proof Silver Eagle I could make. The best way to learn to identify a cleaned coin is to take some cheap original coins, clean them, and compare the before and after states. In this case, there is no better way to learn the characteristics of over-struck coins than to make some yourself (which leads to "C").
C)
I'm probably not the only one thinking of such a venture. Unlike some other potential producers, however, I'm planning to provide details on the characteristics of my pieces, so the study of them could help the numismatic community identify other coins modified using similar technology.
D) If my product is successful, it might sway the US Mint to commit more resources to the production of proof Silver Eagles.
PS:
My test pieces are legal tender, since they are genuine 2009 Silver Eagles. The "collectible" adjective is debatable, of course.
For those that didn't see the other thread, here are pictures again:
WOW ! ! ! Those look REALLY good!
What, No 2009 rev of '07 ? ! ? !
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Sales had been declining since introduction of the sandblast gold and matte finish minor coins. With the new silver designs delayed until late in the year, and the coins now costing more to make than they were sold for, the new Director, von Engelken, agreed to end all proof coin production.
The post-war mint was focused on replacing Pittman dollars, and no one cared about a few coin collectors having something special. Uncirculated coins could be bought through the Treasurer’s Office.
[See “Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921” for details.]
<< <i>I really don't understand why anybody cares if Proof American Silver Eagles are discontinued...the majority of U.S. coins series have
ceased production and/or have gaps; c'est la vie. For those that collect Proof ASEs can you not just study, research & enjoy
your collection as is; is there a reason the series must go on ad infinitum to appreciate a Proof ASE collection? Further, resorting
to ersatz 2009 Proof ASEs seems to me and maybe only to me a fantasy remedy to an imagined problem. >>
For the simple reason that the "gaps" in other coin series are there because the coins were not produced.
The ASE and GAE coins ARE still being produced.
Imagine the outcry if no 2010 Proof coins were going to be produced?
The name is LEE!
The ASE and GAE coins ARE still being produced.
I am not sure that is always the case and I may be mistaken (corrections welcome) but...
1837 50 cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1851 large cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1967 Washington .25 but no corresponding proof issue,
1803 quarter eagle but no corresponding proof issue,
1832 large cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1823 half eagle but no corresponding proof issue.
Imagine the outcry if no 2010 Proof coins were going to be produced?
I don't why anyone would care about no 2010 proof coins either...I guess I am just unable to
understand why it matters. Do collectors have to have something even if it does not exist?
<< <i>For the simple reason that the "gaps" in other coin series are there because the coins were not produced.
The ASE and GAE coins ARE still being produced.
I am not sure that is always the case and I may be mistaken (corrections welcome) but...
1837 50 cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1851 large cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1967 Washington .25 but no corresponding proof issue,
1803 quarter eagle but no corresponding proof issue,
1832 large cent but no corresponding proof issue,
1823 half eagle but no corresponding proof issue.
Imagine the outcry if no 2010 Proof coins were going to be produced?
I don't why anyone would care about no 2010 proof coins either...I guess I am just unable to
understand why it matters. Do collectors have to have something even if it does not exist? >>
Your lack of being able to understand is probably dictated by what you collect as defined by your examples but I'm glad you at least mentioned the 1967 coin.
True, 1965-1967 did not have proof coins and it did bring about a big public outcry which WAS addressed by producing "Special Mint Sets" and by resuming Proof Sets in 1968. The Treasury Department was convinced that the coin collectors/dealers of the world was the reason for the coin shortage which existed at the time. Of course we know that this was not really true.
The "reason" that the Treasury Department has "decided" to not produce the Proof ASE/GSE, could be likened to the same reason they decided to not produce those proof sets 45 years ago. Specifically, mis-information.
It's not so much the fact that they are not going to produce them as much as it is the "reason" they are not going to produce them as that "reason" makes absolutely no sense at all.
The name is LEE!
They are unaccountable to we the people and the customers they serve.
Ask me again the day after you or me can call them up and get a Mintage of any coin they have produced.
Now, ask me what I really think...............
That's seems harsh...I think the U.S. Mint does a pretty fair job given all that they are directed to do.
<< <i> That's seems harsh...I think the U.S. Mint does a pretty fair job given all that they are directed to do. >>
My words are true and plain spoken and based on 4 years of buying products from them and dealing with the incompetence I have received in return as a customer.
Give me one legitimate reason the Mintage of every coin produced by our Mint can not be made readily available to anyone who asks for it?
Box of 20
If that is the case, I think they have grossly missed the mindset of collectors, who it seems to me (a collector of various things my whole life) are more interested in having a complete set of coins rather than just owning lumps of silver.
I also think this could parly be so they don't have to deal directly with the public. With the uncirculated examples being sold only to a select few entitys, they basically have a monopoly.
I have never met Director Moy nor have I even read any interviews with him, but in my 2 years of being a coin collector now, I cannot say his performance has been satisfactory. He has cancelled two popular coin series, his comemeratives have been roundly and deservedly criticized, customer service is apparently quite bad, (I have only ever ordered two things from the mint and both were fine, but there are enough seperate people on the forum noting issues that I must be lucky) and the quality control is horrendus. When you open a roll of cents, all 50 of them should not be showing spotting or other odd marks!
I do not know when Mr. Moy took that position, but if he was behind the satin mint sets that too is something I would complain about- If they want to make them, that's fine as there are collectors for them, BUT they should also give us collectors the opportunity to get that year's mint sets of the regular coinage, especially as many of the new coins are simply not circulating.
Furthermore, I am not sure that Mr. Moy understands the position he is in. By choosing to not make coins of a particular series, in a particular year...this isn't just something that is short term. This is a decision that will have repercussions throughout the rest of history! I have read that he said it was not legal to make the coins retroactivly. Does that also mean that the fact that coins dated 1964 were made into 1966 make them illegal as well?
If I recall correctly, that particular date freeze was mandated by the federal government.
are more interested in having a complete set of coins rather than just owning lumps of silver.
...Proof ASE collectors will still have a complete set even if for a particular year there is no production or am I missing something?
Furthermore, I am not sure that Mr. Moy understands the position he is in. By choosing to not make coins of a particular series, in a
particular year...this isn't just something that is short term. This is a decision that will have repercussions throughout the rest of history!
What negative repercussions could possibly be felt 20-30 years in the future by no 2009 Proof American Silver Eagles?
<< <i>Any bets on whether Mr. Moy will decide to offer a "special" 25th Anniversary Set with a Silver Proof Eagle imbedded in a high cost set of Gold Eagles, in some of the fancy packaging that he has such a "thing" for? >>
I wouldnt bet against that.It would be a big money maker for the mint.
As for Mr.Moy he has made his intentions clear in the recent interviews posted. He has no desire to see old classic designs on our coins.He wants all mint products to be new innovative designs like the current boy scouts or the proof plat. eagle.Sorry to the fans of those designs but I dont think they are the best that could've been done.
The silver source used to be the National Defense Stockpile but all silver assets in that stockpile were transferred to the US Mint in 2005.
The National Defense Stockpile is a program designed to stockpile resources so that the country would not be reliant upon foreign supplies for critical resources during a national emergency. It was some of the source for the oil released to the country right after Katrina.
Since the American Eagle Program was initially designed for silver/gold in the NDS and all silver has been transferred to the US Mint, perhaps it's time for Congress to revisit the bill governing the sales of Silver American Eagles. However, at this particular time, it's probably not the best time to bring it up.
However, I still feel that the US Mint™ is really missing the boat by not producing the proof versions of these coins based upon a narrow sighted interpretation of the law since the enitre purpose behind the program was to make silver/gold available to the American public AND to provide funds for balancing the budget. Proof coins demand a much higher premium than the bullion counterparts and to me, the US Mint™ is simply wasting profits.
The name is LEE!