<< <i>You are defending the dealers. PNG's priority is supposed to be protecting collectors, however. Three members of PNG have been accused of participating in very serious unethical activities. These activities include a racketeering conspiracy to defraud collectors. These extremely serious claims are inconsistent with a member organization that promotes high standards of ethical conduct. PNG should immediately act to suspend the membership of these three dealers. They should allow the dealers to have a hearing to present any reasons why they should be considered for re-instatement. Furthermore, PNG should publicly state that they will suspend members whenever a member-dealer becomes a defendent in a suit filed by NGC or PCGS with allegations of altering coins. Similarly, ANA should take the position that these dealers cannot have tables at any ANA show or ANA meeting, until this matter is settled. PNG's first priority, and ANA's first priority should be to protect collectors, not to protect dealers. Once PNG and ANA realize that their first priority is protecting collectors, coin dealers will benefit, because there will be increased public confidence in coin collecting.
<< <i>OK... first off, I'm not defending them just because they're dealers. I'm defending them because in this country they have a right to due process. Suppose you were accused of some wrongdoing...selling an altered coin perhaps. Not convicted, not shown any real proof tying you specifically to the wrongdoing... just accused by someone. By your own standard it should be perfectly OK for the ANA to suspend your membership, and for you to be banned from attending any shows or pursuing your hobby...based on an accusation, nothing more... and you'd be OK with it? If you say yes, you are not being truthful. And this is what you want...based merely on an as-yet unproven accusation, you want these guys to be suspended from membership in organizations in which they are currently paid members in good standing...plus you would deny them the opportunity to make a living in their chosen profession based merely on that same unproven accusation. Did I just teleport into Russia by accident?
Uh, yes. The evidence given is overwhelming. So what if a few more customers get sold doctored coins? A bucks a buck, right? Maybe you deal with these guys. I won't. This says an awful lot about your character. You have none. This is the same mentality the Catholic Church showed all these years with child molestation. I say enough is enough. All you dealers supporting your buddies: shame on you!!!
I hope people take notice of the responses posted here. Keep notes and name names. >>
Thank you, Senator McCarthy!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>You are defending the dealers. PNG's priority is supposed to be protecting collectors, however. Three members of PNG have been accused of participating in very serious unethical activities. These activities include a racketeering conspiracy to defraud collectors. These extremely serious claims are inconsistent with a member organization that promotes high standards of ethical conduct. PNG should immediately act to suspend the membership of these three dealers. They should allow the dealers to have a hearing to present any reasons why they should be considered for re-instatement. Furthermore, PNG should publicly state that they will suspend members whenever a member-dealer becomes a defendent in a suit filed by NGC or PCGS with allegations of altering coins. Similarly, ANA should take the position that these dealers cannot have tables at any ANA show or ANA meeting, until this matter is settled. PNG's first priority, and ANA's first priority should be to protect collectors, not to protect dealers. Once PNG and ANA realize that their first priority is protecting collectors, coin dealers will benefit, because there will be increased public confidence in coin collecting.
Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable. What possible reason would they want to have to bet on one set lawyers over another?
The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them but it might not be too smart either.
When the smoke clears they can always find some way to shoot them down which doesn't expose them to litigation.
Cladking said: There's a legal issue as well. Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable......
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers.
<< <i>Cladking said: There's a legal issue as well. Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable......
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers. >>
Curiously, how would you feel if a collector/ANA member had been accused of these things? Would you advocate that he be expelled from the ANA while the lawsuit was still pending?
So PNG is supposed to automatically and instantaneously suspend members because PCGS brings suit?
Riddle me this then.
Doesn't PCGS/CLCT still own the Long Beach Show? If so, why was Silvano Digenova (one of the accused) allowed to set up? He was literally two tables down from PCGS.
Do you think he should have been allowed to set up?
I'm a big fan of due process and you can't have it both ways.
MJ
edited to add instantaneously
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Cladking said: There's a legal issue as well. Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable......
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers. >>
I thought a hearing came before judgment
I guess that I must have misunderstood my “civic” class. Maybe it is “guilty until proven not guilty”? But I guess the poster only wants to allow a hearing to “re – instate”, guess they must automatically be guilty. Heck, from now on just “hang them all”, look at the money we could save, no juries, judges, clerks, appeals or paperwork.
There seems to be a rush to the bottom at who can claim to be of the highest moral ethics. As if condemning people prior to trial gives you the moral high ground.
I spoke with people with the ANA about instituting the Dealer membership (it was given the big thumbs-down on this board last year). If dealers had to sign an ethics agreement to become a member maybe it would be a helpful thing. For the ANA to start denying tables to suspected doctors would lead to more problems than they want.
I think there should be a strict definition on what is criminal doctoring, market-unacceptable doctoring and market-acceptable "doctoring". My own thought aligns on the methods exhibited in the lawsuit as criminal such as adding heads and bands, lasering hairlines, (and adding) making RB copper RD and any other method that makes a coin artificially better than it really is. Market-unacceptable would be over-dipping and artificial toning, removing spots by tooling, and tooling in general (maybe that should be criminal too). Market-acceptable would likely be anything that passes the NCG-test. Where NCG draws the line is probably where the line should be drawn. Were the Central America Gold coins "doctored"? Yes, but they are market-acceptable, I think.
Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable. What possible reason would they want to have to bet on one set lawyers over another?
The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them but it might not be too smart either.
When the smoke clears they can always find some way to shoot them down which doesn't expose them to litigation. >>
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case.
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case.
Exactly!!
What kind of moral compass do these people have who need to see a written description of doctoring? Don't they know right from wrong? Here's what I think. I think they do business with these people. Maybe they don't fence doctored coins, but they trade coins and provide aid and comfort to these people. Like I said before, this will all come out in the wash in the end. Names will be named. I for one am blacklisting many posters here. You are people I do not wish to ever do business with.
On the other hand, I was totally wrong about Laura. I would rather pay 2X more for a coin from her and feel good about it.
<< <i>There seems to be a rush to the bottom at who can claim to be of the highest moral ethics. As if condemning people prior to trial gives you the moral high ground.
I spoke with people with the ANA about instituting the Dealer membership (it was given the big thumbs-down on this board last year). If dealers had to sign an ethics agreement to become a member maybe it would be a helpful thing. For the ANA to start denying tables to suspected doctors would lead to more problems than they want.
I think there should be a strict definition on what is criminal doctoring, market-unacceptable doctoring and market-acceptable "doctoring". My own thought aligns on the methods exhibited in the lawsuit as criminal such as adding heads and bands, lasering hairlines, (and adding) making RB copper RD and any other method that makes a coin artificially better than it really is. Market-unacceptable would be over-dipping and artificial toning, removing spots by tooling, and tooling in general (maybe that should be criminal too). Market-acceptable would likely be anything that passes the NCG-test. Where NCG draws the line is probably where the line should be drawn. Were the Central America Gold coins "doctored"? Yes, but they are market-acceptable, I think. >>
Rick, I agree with you that there should be a clear (as possible) definition of what is ethical, also probably on where to draw the line.. I have been keeping up with this issue as well as I can, but can you (or someone) link to the NGC standard you mention? I don't remember seeing it.
For all you who do not believe in due process, a true story:
Many years ago a fellow started coming in in the Fall to sell us gold, telling us that because of a (legitimate) change in the tax laws that would be taking effect January first he was selling it now and would be buying it back after the first of the year. He sold us about 100 ounces of legitimate product.
In January he came in and wanted to buy 100 Maple Leafs. We quoted a price, he gave us a good deposit and said he would wire us the balance in a few days. We ordered the product, and a few days later received a wire for the balance.
The product shipment was delayed a few days. The day we were finally expecting it, two detectives showed up at the door. Turns out the guy had embezelled the funds from the company he was the bookkeeper at and wired it to us. The police had traced the funds to us.
One of the detectives was absolutely convinced that we were conspirators with the guy and wanted to shut us down. Fortunately, the other detective figured out that the guy was just laundering the money through us. They were shocked to find out that the guy had not skipped out yet, and we arranged for them to be there when the guy showed up a few hours later. He had other gold in a briefcase, and a one-way ticket to Rio.
What if only that first detective had been working that day? We could have been totally screwed without having done anything wrong.
Yes there are coin doctors out there. PCGS is doing yeoman work to get them shut down. Let THEM do their work, and shut up with your lynch-mob blather.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>For all you idiots who do not believe in due process, a true story:
Many years ago a fellow started coming in in the Fall to sell us gold, telling us that because of a (legitimate) change in the tax laws that would be taking effect January first he was selling it now and would be buying it back after the first of the year. He sold us about 100 ounces of legitimate product.
In January he came in and wanted to buy 100 Maple Leafs. We quoted a price, he gave us a good deposit and said he would wire us the balance in a few days. We ordered the product, and a few days later received a wire for the balance.
The product shipment was delayed a few days. The day we were finally expecting it, two detectives showed up at the door. Turns out the guy had embezelled the funds from the company he was the bookkeeper at and wired it to us. The police had traced the funds to us.
One of the detectives was absolutely convinced that we were conspirators with the guy and wanted to shut us down. Fortunately, the other detective figured out that the guy was just laundering the money through us. They were shocked to find out that the guy had not skipped out yet, and we arranged for them to be there when the guy showed up a few hours later. He had other gold in a briefcase, and a one-way ticket to Rio.
What if only that first detective had been working that day? We could have been totally screwed without having done anything wrong.
Yes there are coin doctors out there. PCGS is doing yeoman work to get them shut down. Let THEM do their work, and shut up with your stupid lynch-mob blather.
TD >>
Tom, there is a huge difference between, for example, if you had been shut down, vs. a PNG member being temporarily suspended, pending the outcome of the lawsuit.
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case. >>
This sort of thing is usually a matter of public safety. A teacher accused of molestation or a cop of brutality are not considered to be safe to have on the job while charges are pending. They are normally suspended with pay or simply transferred to different duty.
Until more details are known we don't even know the specific charges against these individuals. There's no public safety issue here unless you consider peoples' money and coins at risk.
Securities dealers are suspended when are charges are brought forth. I believe dealers are similar to securities dealers.
If these people can screw other people while the lawsuit proceeds, then others will be hurt.
Maybe I should go under cover and buy a coin from DiGenova that I know is doctored. I'll wear a wire and a video camera and play dumb (that last part should be easy for me)
<< <i>Securities dealers are suspended when are charges are brought forth. I believe dealers are similar to securities dealers.
If these people can screw other people while the lawsuit proceeds, then others will be hurt.
Maybe I should go under cover and buy a coin from DiGenova that I know is doctored. I'll wear a wire and a video camera and play dumb (that last part should be easy for me) >>
Good point but that's their employer who suspends them rather than a professional organization.
PNG has tolerated this situation for many years and they are not going to come out of it smelling like a rose. It's been a wide open secret that this practice has been going on and damaging the hobby and countless individuals not to mention the many thousands of coins lost.
There are other problems in the hobby and PNG does still have an op- portunity to lead the charge against them rather than merely react. Of course they won't be around at all if people lose faith in what they purport to be.
What kind of moral compass do these people have who need to see a written description of doctoring? Don't they know right from wrong? Here's what I think. I think they do business with these people.
If you mean me, then remember that I started screening out problem PCGS and NGC coin 12 years before CAC copied my idea. I fought doctoring and overgrading quietly before Laura did it loudly.
As far as needing a written description, I think it would be more helpful to those who don't know than those who know the boundaries of what is right and wrong. NCG does not tool coins, or add heads and bands. I don't think they have written rules of engagement, but I think most people know what they will and wont do.
Coinguy1 said: Curiously, how would you feel if a collector/ANA member had been accused of these things? Would you advocate that he be expelled from the ANA while the lawsuit was still pending?
First, individual collectors are not members of PNG. Second, most individual collectors don't have tables at ANA shows. I didn't advocate for suspending ANA membership; I said that these dealers should not have tables at ANA shows until this matter is resolved.
It's time that the coin industry unite behind PCGS to stop the ugly practice of coin doctoring. Action by PNG and ANA could send a powerful message to dealers. The absence of any action also sends a powerful message.
<< <i>Coinguy1 said: Curiously, how would you feel if a collector/ANA member had been accused of these things? Would you advocate that he be expelled from the ANA while the lawsuit was still pending?
First, individual collectors are not members of PNG. Second, most individual collectors don't have tables at ANA shows. I didn't advocate for suspending ANA membership; I said that these dealers should not have tables at ANA shows until this matter is resolved.
It's time that the coin industry unite behind PCGS to stop the ugly practice of coin doctoring. Action by PNG and ANA could send a powerful message to dealers. The absence of any action also sends a powerful message. >>
I am aware of the differences between dealers who are PNG members and collectors who are ANA members. But I was curious as to your thoughts regarding accused collectors, as opposed to dealers.
I don't understand how, on one hand, you don't advocate suspending ANA membership, but on the other, wouldn't allow tables at ANA shows. It sure seems like it should be neither or both.
<< <i>I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case.
Exactly!!
What kind of moral compass do these people have who need to see a written description of doctoring? Don't they know right from wrong? Here's what I think. I think they do business with these people. Maybe they don't fence doctored coins, but they trade coins and provide aid and comfort to these people. Like I said before, this will all come out in the wash in the end. Names will be named. I for one am blacklisting many posters here. You are people I do not wish to ever do business with.
On the other hand, I was totally wrong about Laura. I would rather pay 2X more for a coin from her and feel good about it.
This is just the first inning. >>
Here's what I think. You've let this whole idea manifest in your head until you think every coin dealer except Laura is in cahoots to rip every last dollar out of your pocket, and every person who has not committed ultimately allegience to Laura must be doing backdoor business with coin doctors.
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case. >>
This sort of thing is usually a matter of public safety. A teacher accused of molestation or a cop of brutality are not considered to be safe to have on the job while charges are pending. They are normally suspended with pay or simply transferred to different duty.
Until more details are known we don't even know the specific charges against these individuals. There's no public safety issue here unless you consider peoples' money and coins at risk. >>
It's typical for allegations of dishonesty as well. I can guarantee that my state BBB would suspend a member business with allegations like this pending an investigation by the BBB, and it would take the action it felt warranted by the facts regardless of the outcome in court. It might be to reinstate, or it might result in revocation of their membership. There is no "right" to be in the PNG or ANA that has to be protected here. It's simply an industry association. Nor is there any right to due process relating to membership as stated by some posters.
I could HAVE USED a coin doctor this weekend. Apparently I had a Jefferson nickel develop serious bronchial problems and now a brave Jefferson nickel has got black lung that spread both obv and rev.
Whoa is me!
Where are all the doctors that could have saved Tommy?
Apparantly this trama has ALSO resulted in irrepairable damage to the Jefferson Memorial steps which prior to this disaster, had the first AND ONLY 7 step Jefferson Nickel.
I am aware of the differences between dealers who are PNG members and collectors who are ANA members. But I was curious as to your thoughts regarding accused collectors, as opposed to dealers. I don't understand how, on one hand, you don't advocate suspending ANA membership, but on the other, wouldn't allow tables at ANA shows. It sure seems like it should be neither or both.
I am concerned about protecting collectors. In my opinion, membership in PNG should be like a "good housekeeping seal of approval", that helps collectors determine whether a dealer has integrity.
Perhaps I don't understand how ANA membership works, but I thought there is no dealer category of membership, only individual. (Please correct me if this is wrong). At any rate, the goal is to protect collectors who might not be following this issue closely, which is why I focused on the tables. A suspension is not intended to insult an individual. It is intended to protect others. I don't have any problem, however, if ANA suspends membership for these individuals.
Comments
<< <i>You are defending the dealers. PNG's priority is supposed to be protecting collectors, however. Three members of PNG have been accused of participating in very serious unethical activities. These activities include a racketeering conspiracy to defraud collectors. These extremely serious claims are inconsistent with a member organization that promotes high standards of ethical conduct. PNG should immediately act to suspend the membership of these three dealers. They should allow the dealers to have a hearing to present any reasons why they should be considered for re-instatement. Furthermore, PNG should publicly state that they will suspend members whenever a member-dealer becomes a defendent in a suit filed by NGC or PCGS with allegations of altering coins. Similarly, ANA should take the position that these dealers cannot have tables at any ANA show or ANA meeting, until this matter is settled. PNG's first priority, and ANA's first priority should be to protect collectors, not to protect dealers. Once PNG and ANA realize that their first priority is protecting collectors, coin dealers will benefit, because there will be increased public confidence in coin collecting.
BRAVO!!!
+1
<< <i>OK... first off, I'm not defending them just because they're dealers. I'm defending them because in this country they have a right to due process. Suppose you were accused of some wrongdoing...selling an altered coin perhaps. Not convicted, not shown any real proof tying you specifically to the wrongdoing... just accused by someone. By your own standard it should be perfectly OK for the ANA to suspend your membership, and for you to be banned from attending any shows or pursuing your hobby...based on an accusation, nothing more... and you'd be OK with it? If you say yes, you are not being truthful. And this is what you want...based merely on an as-yet unproven accusation, you want these guys to be suspended from membership in organizations in which they are currently paid members in good standing...plus you would deny them the opportunity to make a living in their chosen profession based merely on that same unproven accusation. Did I just teleport into Russia by accident?
Uh, yes. The evidence given is overwhelming. So what if a few more customers get sold doctored coins? A bucks a buck, right? Maybe you deal with these guys. I won't. This says an awful lot about your character. You have none. This is the same mentality the Catholic Church showed all these years with child molestation. I say enough is enough. All you dealers supporting your buddies: shame on you!!!
I hope people take notice of the responses posted here. Keep notes and name names. >>
Thank you, Senator McCarthy!
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>You are defending the dealers. PNG's priority is supposed to be protecting collectors, however. Three members of PNG have been accused of participating in very serious unethical activities. These activities include a racketeering conspiracy to defraud collectors. These extremely serious claims are inconsistent with a member organization that promotes high standards of ethical conduct. PNG should immediately act to suspend the membership of these three dealers. They should allow the dealers to have a hearing to present any reasons why they should be considered for re-instatement. Furthermore, PNG should publicly state that they will suspend members whenever a member-dealer becomes a defendent in a suit filed by NGC or PCGS with allegations of altering coins. Similarly, ANA should take the position that these dealers cannot have tables at any ANA show or ANA meeting, until this matter is settled. PNG's first priority, and ANA's first priority should be to protect collectors, not to protect dealers. Once PNG and ANA realize that their first priority is protecting collectors, coin dealers will benefit, because there will be increased public confidence in coin collecting.
BRAVO!!!
+1 >>
+2
Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might
be actionable. What possible reason would they want to have to bet on
one set lawyers over another?
The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them but it might not be too
smart either.
When the smoke clears they can always find some way to shoot them down
which doesn't expose them to litigation.
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers.
<< <i>Cladking said: There's a legal issue as well. Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable......
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers. >>
Curiously, how would you feel if a collector/ANA member had been accused of these things? Would you advocate that he be expelled from the ANA while the lawsuit was still pending?
So PNG is supposed to automatically and instantaneously suspend members because PCGS brings suit?
Riddle me this then.
Doesn't PCGS/CLCT still own the Long Beach Show? If so, why was Silvano Digenova (one of the accused) allowed to set up?
He was literally two tables down from PCGS.
Do you think he should have been allowed to set up?
I'm a big fan of due process and you can't have it both ways.
MJ
edited to add instantaneously
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Cladking said: There's a legal issue as well. Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might be actionable......
Huh? PNG should avoid suspending them because PNG might be sued if they are innocent? Well, I couldn't disagree more with your viewpoint. Organizations like PNG that claim to have high ethical standards should have the courage to take actions that they think are right. They shouldn't be afraid that a member will sue them, and, as a result, never suspend any member. PNG should immediately suspend all three, and PNG should give them a hearing, if they want one, to present information about why they should be re-instated.
Cladking also said: The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them...
You appear to be more concerned about what is fair for dealers than you are concerned about what is good for collectors. Organizations like PNG are supposed protect collectors from unethical behavior by dealers. >>
I thought a hearing came before judgment
I guess that I must have misunderstood my “civic” class. Maybe it is “guilty until proven not guilty”? But I guess the poster only wants to allow a hearing to “re – instate”, guess they must automatically be guilty. Heck, from now on just “hang them all”, look at the money we could save, no juries, judges, clerks, appeals or paperwork.
I spoke with people with the ANA about instituting the Dealer membership (it was given the big thumbs-down on this board last year). If dealers had to sign an ethics agreement to become a member maybe it would be a helpful thing. For the ANA to start denying tables to suspected doctors would lead to more problems than they want.
I think there should be a strict definition on what is criminal doctoring, market-unacceptable doctoring and market-acceptable "doctoring". My own thought aligns on the methods exhibited in the lawsuit as criminal such as adding heads and bands, lasering hairlines, (and adding) making RB copper RD and any other method that makes a coin artificially better than it really is. Market-unacceptable would be over-dipping and artificial toning, removing spots by tooling, and tooling in general (maybe that should be criminal too). Market-acceptable would likely be anything that passes the NCG-test. Where NCG draws the line is probably where the line should be drawn. Were the Central America Gold coins "doctored"? Yes, but they are market-acceptable, I think.
<< <i>There's a legal issue as well.
Suspending these people and then having them survive litigation might
be actionable. What possible reason would they want to have to bet on
one set lawyers over another?
The bottom line is it's not fair to suspend them but it might not be too
smart either.
When the smoke clears they can always find some way to shoot them down
which doesn't expose them to litigation. >>
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case.
Exactly!!
What kind of moral compass do these people have who need to see a written description of doctoring? Don't they know right from wrong? Here's what I think. I think they do business with these people. Maybe they don't fence doctored coins, but they trade coins and provide aid and comfort to these people. Like I said before, this will all come out in the wash in the end. Names will be named. I for one am blacklisting many posters here. You are people I do not wish to ever do business with.
On the other hand, I was totally wrong about Laura. I would rather pay 2X more for a coin from her and feel good about it.
This is just the first inning.
<< <i>There seems to be a rush to the bottom at who can claim to be of the highest moral ethics. As if condemning people prior to trial gives you the moral high ground.
I spoke with people with the ANA about instituting the Dealer membership (it was given the big thumbs-down on this board last year). If dealers had to sign an ethics agreement to become a member maybe it would be a helpful thing. For the ANA to start denying tables to suspected doctors would lead to more problems than they want.
I think there should be a strict definition on what is criminal doctoring, market-unacceptable doctoring and market-acceptable "doctoring". My own thought aligns on the methods exhibited in the lawsuit as criminal such as adding heads and bands, lasering hairlines, (and adding) making RB copper RD and any other method that makes a coin artificially better than it really is. Market-unacceptable would be over-dipping and artificial toning, removing spots by tooling, and tooling in general (maybe that should be criminal too). Market-acceptable would likely be anything that passes the NCG-test. Where NCG draws the line is probably where the line should be drawn. Were the Central America Gold coins "doctored"? Yes, but they are market-acceptable, I think. >>
Rick, I agree with you that there should be a clear (as possible) definition of what is ethical, also probably on where to draw the line.. I have been keeping up with this issue as well as I can, but can you (or someone) link to the NGC standard you mention? I don't remember seeing it.
Many years ago a fellow started coming in in the Fall to sell us gold, telling us that because of a (legitimate) change in the tax laws that would be taking effect January first he was selling it now and would be buying it back after the first of the year. He sold us about 100 ounces of legitimate product.
In January he came in and wanted to buy 100 Maple Leafs. We quoted a price, he gave us a good deposit and said he would wire us the balance in a few days. We ordered the product, and a few days later received a wire for the balance.
The product shipment was delayed a few days. The day we were finally expecting it, two detectives showed up at the door. Turns out the guy had embezelled the funds from the company he was the bookkeeper at and wired it to us. The police had traced the funds to us.
One of the detectives was absolutely convinced that we were conspirators with the guy and wanted to shut us down. Fortunately, the other detective figured out that the guy was just laundering the money through us. They were shocked to find out that the guy had not skipped out yet, and we arranged for them to be there when the guy showed up a few hours later. He had other gold in a briefcase, and a one-way ticket to Rio.
What if only that first detective had been working that day? We could have been totally screwed without having done anything wrong.
Yes there are coin doctors out there. PCGS is doing yeoman work to get them shut down. Let THEM do their work, and shut up with your lynch-mob blather.
TD
<< <i>For all you idiots who do not believe in due process, a true story:
Many years ago a fellow started coming in in the Fall to sell us gold, telling us that because of a (legitimate) change in the tax laws that would be taking effect January first he was selling it now and would be buying it back after the first of the year. He sold us about 100 ounces of legitimate product.
In January he came in and wanted to buy 100 Maple Leafs. We quoted a price, he gave us a good deposit and said he would wire us the balance in a few days. We ordered the product, and a few days later received a wire for the balance.
The product shipment was delayed a few days. The day we were finally expecting it, two detectives showed up at the door. Turns out the guy had embezelled the funds from the company he was the bookkeeper at and wired it to us. The police had traced the funds to us.
One of the detectives was absolutely convinced that we were conspirators with the guy and wanted to shut us down. Fortunately, the other detective figured out that the guy was just laundering the money through us. They were shocked to find out that the guy had not skipped out yet, and we arranged for them to be there when the guy showed up a few hours later. He had other gold in a briefcase, and a one-way ticket to Rio.
What if only that first detective had been working that day? We could have been totally screwed without having done anything wrong.
Yes there are coin doctors out there. PCGS is doing yeoman work to get them shut down. Let THEM do their work, and shut up with your stupid lynch-mob blather.
TD >>
Tom, there is a huge difference between, for example, if you had been shut down, vs. a PNG member being temporarily suspended, pending the outcome of the lawsuit.
you are violating the rules
as you state ; you must prove me an idiot before you can legally call me one
and I am constitutionally empowered to have the freedom to speak
<< <i>
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case. >>
This sort of thing is usually a matter of public safety. A teacher accused
of molestation or a cop of brutality are not considered to be safe to have
on the job while charges are pending. They are normally suspended with
pay or simply transferred to different duty.
Until more details are known we don't even know the specific charges
against these individuals. There's no public safety issue here unless you
consider peoples' money and coins at risk.
If these people can screw other people while the lawsuit proceeds, then others will be hurt.
Maybe I should go under cover and buy a coin from DiGenova that I know is doctored. I'll wear a wire and a video camera and play dumb (that last part should be easy for me)
<< <i>Securities dealers are suspended when are charges are brought forth. I believe dealers are similar to securities dealers.
If these people can screw other people while the lawsuit proceeds, then others will be hurt.
Maybe I should go under cover and buy a coin from DiGenova that I know is doctored. I'll wear a wire and a video camera and play dumb (that last part should be easy for me) >>
Good point but that's their employer who suspends them rather than
a professional organization.
PNG has tolerated this situation for many years and they are not going
to come out of it smelling like a rose. It's been a wide open secret
that this practice has been going on and damaging the hobby and
countless individuals not to mention the many thousands of coins lost.
There are other problems in the hobby and PNG does still have an op-
portunity to lead the charge against them rather than merely react.
Of course they won't be around at all if people lose faith in what they
purport to be.
If you mean me, then remember that I started screening out problem PCGS and NGC coin 12 years before CAC copied my idea. I fought doctoring and overgrading quietly before Laura did it loudly.
As far as needing a written description, I think it would be more helpful to those who don't know than those who know the boundaries of what is right and wrong. NCG does not tool coins, or add heads and bands. I don't think they have written rules of engagement, but I think most people know what they will and wont do.
I wish her and PCGS the best.
First, individual collectors are not members of PNG. Second, most individual collectors don't have tables at ANA shows. I didn't advocate for suspending ANA membership; I said that these dealers should not have tables at ANA shows until this matter is resolved.
It's time that the coin industry unite behind PCGS to stop the ugly practice of coin doctoring. Action by PNG and ANA could send a powerful message to dealers. The absence of any action also sends a powerful message.
<< <i>Coinguy1 said: Curiously, how would you feel if a collector/ANA member had been accused of these things? Would you advocate that he be expelled from the ANA while the lawsuit was still pending?
First, individual collectors are not members of PNG. Second, most individual collectors don't have tables at ANA shows. I didn't advocate for suspending ANA membership; I said that these dealers should not have tables at ANA shows until this matter is resolved.
It's time that the coin industry unite behind PCGS to stop the ugly practice of coin doctoring. Action by PNG and ANA could send a powerful message to dealers. The absence of any action also sends a powerful message. >>
I am aware of the differences between dealers who are PNG members and collectors who are ANA members. But I was curious as to your thoughts regarding accused collectors, as opposed to dealers.
I don't understand how, on one hand, you don't advocate suspending ANA membership, but on the other, wouldn't allow tables at ANA shows. It sure seems like it should be neither or both.
<< <i>I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case.
Exactly!!
What kind of moral compass do these people have who need to see a written description of doctoring? Don't they know right from wrong? Here's what I think. I think they do business with these people. Maybe they don't fence doctored coins, but they trade coins and provide aid and comfort to these people. Like I said before, this will all come out in the wash in the end. Names will be named. I for one am blacklisting many posters here. You are people I do not wish to ever do business with.
On the other hand, I was totally wrong about Laura. I would rather pay 2X more for a coin from her and feel good about it.
This is just the first inning. >>
Here's what I think. You've let this whole idea manifest in your head until you think every coin dealer except Laura is in cahoots to rip every last dollar out of your pocket, and every person who has not committed ultimately allegience to Laura must be doing backdoor business with coin doctors.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I don't know where you guys work, but people are routinely suspended pending an investigation, with no penalty or consequence to the employer. Why would an association be held to a higher standard? We have strong allegations brought before a court regarding conduct that clearly violates PNG and ANA ethics and rules. It would be perfectly proper for PNG to suspend these individuals pending an investigation. Why doesn't PNG do their own investigation and make their own determination? They are not bound by the outcome in the PCGS case. >>
This sort of thing is usually a matter of public safety. A teacher accused
of molestation or a cop of brutality are not considered to be safe to have
on the job while charges are pending. They are normally suspended with
pay or simply transferred to different duty.
Until more details are known we don't even know the specific charges
against these individuals. There's no public safety issue here unless you
consider peoples' money and coins at risk. >>
It's typical for allegations of dishonesty as well. I can guarantee that my state BBB would suspend a member business with allegations like this pending an investigation by the BBB, and it would take the action it felt warranted by the facts regardless of the outcome in court. It might be to reinstate, or it might result in revocation of their membership. There is no "right" to be in the PNG or ANA that has to be protected here. It's simply an industry association. Nor is there any right to due process relating to membership as stated by some posters.
Whoa is me!
Where are all the doctors that could have saved Tommy?
Apparantly this trama has ALSO resulted in irrepairable damage to the Jefferson Memorial steps which prior to this disaster, had the first AND ONLY 7 step Jefferson Nickel.
WHY?????????? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God rest this poor nickel. I hope you are all happy with yourselves!
I am concerned about protecting collectors. In my opinion, membership in PNG should be like a "good housekeeping seal of approval", that helps collectors determine whether a dealer has integrity.
Perhaps I don't understand how ANA membership works, but I thought there is no dealer category of membership, only individual. (Please correct me if this is wrong). At any rate, the goal is to protect collectors who might not be following this issue closely, which is why I focused on the tables. A suspension is not intended to insult an individual. It is intended to protect others. I don't have any problem, however, if ANA suspends membership for these individuals.