<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You can't buy a Volkswagon from a dealer for 20K, take it home and put a plastic Ferrari body kit on the frame and then have a friend return it to a Ferrari dealer stating you think the Ferrari is defective and receive an 80K return. It’s fake. When the coins are doctored they (in my opinion) become no longer original – they are something other than the mint made them to be – fake.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases.
<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
I agree 100% and hope that only the collectors, dealers, and graders with the highest standards survive this wave of corruption.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
"Multiple billionaires"?
On another note, here is what Legend wrote about the lawsuit on their website:
" THE PCGS LAWSUIT
KUDOS PCGS!
Please, no one pinch me, this is one dream I do not want to end. My sincere congratulations to David Hall and Don Willis for taking the ultimate step in the fight on coin doctors-filing a lawsuit!
For years the situation with coin doctors has only been growing more desperate. The grading services have been fighting them as hard as they could privately. Every time they thought they had a handle, the coin docs just figured out new ways to continue their destruction. This lawsuit is not for glamour, rewards, or a money grab, it was a necessity. PCGS has done the absolute right thing. TO SEE A COPY OF THE SUIT, VISIT www.coinlink.com
LEGEND NUMISMATICS FULLY SUPPORTS THE COMPLAINT AND PLEDGES TO HELP PCGS BECOME VICTORIOUS.
THE DEALER CULTURE
There is a rotten to the core subculture of coin dealers close to these guys who truly believe that it is their right to doctor, recolor, or do whatever they please to coins for a living. These people have little respect and nothing but contempt for the grading services and the public. Its time they learn they are not above the law. I have already spoken to several dealers who making their living cracking out coins. They see no wrong because they do not consider themselves full coin doctors. Much to my shock, they have the attitude that PCGS is wrong and the complaint will be dismissed. WRONG!
Its mindboggling these greedy whores fail to realize is that FRAUD has been committed. One dealer said to me "Its the grading services job to not allow doctored coins to get through". True. However, it is against the law to try and defraud them by altering the coins they submit. Once this complaint starts progessing, the peripherial players will be exposed. Those are the guys who really have to be sweating right now. They are the ones who quietly sent coins off to these guys to have the work done for them while they look clean. I think you'll be shocked to see who some of these names are-especially including some well known longtime PNG members. Plus, sooner or later, it probably will be exposed about a few major firms who employ well known coin docs. They will be a tougher fight because they hire them and called them "conservationists or curators". In the end, they won't win-the evidence will be too overwhelming.
PCGS has started the fight "right". They are not just shooting the dark, they gathered the most facts and proof possible then waited for the right opportunity to file the complaint. There never was any secret among major dealers who the real coin doctors are. Dealers like myself were helpless to fight them other than to publicly complain (if you notice few of my fellow dealers ever stood up and spoke out). I could name most docs, I know who a lot of these guys are, however I would have been sued for sure. PCGS can file suit because they have been directly harmed and they have the physical evidence with the proven patterns of deciet these guys followed. It will be interesting to see the defense tactics the defendants will employ. In my opinion, the best they can do will be to deflect and totally deny. Too bad for the docs, facts are facts-no court or jury should rule against a consumer injury by fraud.
My only hope is that PCGS goes after as many of these guy as they can. The amount of serious coin doctors is actually small relative to the number of total dealers inthe business. However, the ones listed in this complaint are just the tip of the iceberg. There are others out there who mix chemicals, recolor coins, add frosting, etc. and brag about it within the dealer world. I have no sympathy for these guys. Their work has made my life miserable and has hurt collectors. They are not around when a customer comes back in a few months or a year or two to show me how the coin I sold turned (note: when a coin is first messed with it can be impossible to detect). Or how when a customer sells their collection and it has become all dreck and I am the one who has to tell them. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars buying coins back and I am sure the grading services have lost millions. Even if PCGS has to spend a million dollars on this suit, it will be cheaper for them in the long run. Names will be exposed and others will think twice about coin doctoring as a career. There won't be as many willing submittors these guys can hide behind either. What these bad guys do negatively affects everyone invloved in the hobby.
Also, it is my strong opinion, that ANY dealer who feels this suit is bogus or does not support it, is as guilty as the people named. How on earth could you not support a lawsuit against people ruining coins? PCGS has no reason to just pull names out of hat and go after any one they could. I also feel that any dealer who acted knowingly as a "mule" deserves to be punished as well. Why didn't any of these "mules" ever question why they were submitting coins for others? Altering a rare coin should be a crime, PERIOD. These guys are getting off light by only having to face a civil suit (in Chicago the FBI busted the baseball card guys for fraudulently tampering with cards years ago).
Finally, there is an organiztion (PCGS) doing some self policing and fighting for the collecting public. This suit was public most of the day yesterday. Why have other organizations-especially my beloved (NOT) PNG not commented? Who do they support? I fully understand that ALL of the people named in the suit are INNOCENT until proven guilty, but why can't the PNG at least come out and say something like "we do not condone coin doctoring"? I personally believe its because they know several more of their members WILL be involved. Remember, PNG calls itself the ultimate in consumer protection and claims to hold its dealers to the highest standards of ethics. I am pleased to say that this Wed I will be going in front of the PNG board of directors to discuss coin doctoring and the ramifications of it. I expect to be rubber stamped and not welcomed with huggies and kissys.
WE ALL NEED TO HELP IN THIS FIGHT
One lawsuit will not end the attempts of coin doctors. They are convinced they have a right and probably now feel they are at war with the services. What they do not realize is they are screwing the collector and the hobby in the end. Thats can only happen for so long before everyone is fed up. That time has come. The public needs to speak out more and push organizations with power-like the ANA and the PNG to take action. If collectors know of someone doctoring coins-even on small level, avoid them and tell the grading services. Make your dealer stay away from the bad guys. Write letters to Coin World or discuss the issue on collector forums. Yesterday, a small but significant step was taken in this critical war. We can win and stop the majority of the coin doctors!
This article is the opinion soley of the author, Laura Sperber.
Any comments, please feel free to email: lsperber1@hotmail.com NOTE: I am having email problems, so allow time for a response. " >>
What about leaning on Ebay a little heavier to rid the site of counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS plastic? Is it possible Ebay doesn't know counterfeit merchandise is being sold through their site? HA!
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement.
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement.
I wish here in Canada, ICCS would have sued those ba**ards that were caught red handed actually switching coins in and out of the ICCS holders about 15 years ago.
Most Canadian coin collectors will know of whom I'm speaking.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
I'm saying appellate courts reverse and/or remand cases clearly decided contrary to the law. Thus, even if "sure thing" lawsuits lose at trial, they often win on appeal.
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed".
While i have not read the case file or the whole thread i do know that everyone involved is about to occur some large legal fees. I am glad pcgs filed this but it may end up biting them in the end.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed". >>
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
I'm saying appellate courts reverse and/or remand cases clearly decided contrary to the law. Thus, even if "sure thing" lawsuits lose at trial, they often win on appeal. >>
You added "clearly decided contrary to the law". Not mentioned in your prior statement. That's the problem.
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
>>
And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed". >>
Stick to what you know. It's certainly not law. >>
I know that "usually" and "every" are two verry different things, legally and otherwise. And, that either accidentally or intentionally, you switched from one to another and equated them.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
I might be mistaken, but believe that Doug is an attorney. Either way, at least he is a gentleman.
Re Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. : I know that when I walked across the stage to receive my PhD in Economics, the one thought going through my mind was "Damn, I sure wish this was a JD degree I was receiving." I bet a lot of the other PhDs and MDs on this board had similar thoughts...
It is very interesting that PCGS is bringing a suit against the Coin Docs. I hope this brings about a good change in the industry.
Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
The lawsuit will be long and ugly and there are no guarantees.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer?
The lawsuit will be long and ugly and there are no guarantees. >>
Perfect. Thank you Julian. Might I add I think there will be consequences to all of this that may not be so good for numismatics and a lot of people in the business.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer? >>
Mark,
I did go inactive on my bar license two years ago, so no professional advice from me :0. I read the complaint and think it is a strong showing, as most complaints are. My suspicion is that PCGS has gathered the proper documentation and proof before filing suit and a few of these defendants (if not all) may get caught flatfooted. I was just marveling at what it would be like to be able to prepare for an action like this while the doctors continued to practice bad medicine and waiting for just the right fact patterns before filing the suit. That is a rare opportunity for an attorney. I also suspect that Mrs. Storm and her firm are merely local counsel and that Armen will be the lead. I haven't checked the records for a PHV, but there he is on the top of the complaint.
Venue ... I believe I would have looked at eligible forums for a coin collecting judge ...
<< <i>Congratulations PCGS, for cementing your brand and creating additional value add. You have been able to differentiate yourself in a compelling way, and the lawsuit will make all in the hobby aware of the implications. Your actions should make collectors much safer. >>
We already knew which side PCGS was on but this will make all the hoaxsters think twice before pulling their shenanigans and peddling their wares. It gives PCGS a better handle on consum- er protection and might eventually leads to a way to attack the Chinese counterfeiters and their minions who pedal the garbage.
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer? >>
Mark,
I did go inactive on my bar license two years ago, so no professional advice from me :0. I read the complaint and think it is a strong showing, as most complaints are. My suspicion is that PCGS has gathered the proper documentation and proof before filing suit and a few of these defendants (if not all) may get caught flatfooted. I was just marveling at what it would be like to be able to prepare for an action like this while the doctors continued to practice bad medicine and waiting for just the right fact patterns before filing the suit. That is a rare opportunity for an attorney. I also suspect that Mrs. Storm and her firm are merely local counsel and that Armen will be the lead. I haven't checked the records for a PHV, but there he is on the top of the complaint.
Venue ... I believe I would have looked at eligible forums for a coin collecting judge ... >>
Thanks Doug.
<< <i>Doug
Who is Armen? >>
Craig, I'm not Doug, but Armen Vartian is an attorney who has an excellent knowledge of and experience in legal matters pertaining to the numismatic industry.
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point.
Educated folks understand the difference between "envy" and "jealously." Smart folks know when to shut up.
<< <i>Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point.
Educated folks understand the difference between "envy" and "jealously." Smart folks know when to shut up. >>
Mark is right. He is THE coin lawyer to have. Not that it is necessary for working with the laws contemplated in the lawsuit by any means, but he will have a familiarity with the subject matter that other lawyers wouldn't have. He will certainly be more acutely aware of the factual issues that will come up in the case, and will be able to dig into the right places better. All cases are made up of law and fact. PCGS doubled its bet by hiring Armen V.
I didnt read through the whole thread, so maybe this was answered already. But what exactly is any foreign substance ? Oils from a fingerprint? A drop of saliva? Or is it known compounds frequently used such as Trichloroethylene (TCE), that has been used for decades by nearly every coin dealer?
Can these guys be charged criminally if found guilty? For ripping people off for so much? From the oceanfront to prison for a few years or longer would truly be justice.
I applaud PCGS for taking this step and wish them the best
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You can't buy a Volkswagon from a dealer for 20K, take it home and put a plastic Ferrari body kit on the frame and then have a friend return it to a Ferrari dealer stating you think the Ferrari is defective and receive an 80K return. It’s fake. When the coins are doctored they (in my opinion) become no longer original – they are something other than the mint made them to be – fake. >>
NOW you tell me !........... and here I was wrapping my Studebaker in saran wrap to store in an elephants trunk !
Does anybody know who this Rick Wesslink is? The reason i am asking is that my husband worked for a Rick Wesslink for six years between 1992 and 1998. He lives in Mission Viejo and his offices were also located there. This individual owned approximately three to four different corporations and was a very avid collector of rare coins. We shared some good times with his family and when i saw the name i have a hard time believing that this is the same person in the law suit. I just hope that it is not him.
That said, what happens when the device detects a foreign substance that got on the coin in an innocent manner? Years ago we bought in several bags of junk silver that had lain in a basement for years, with the owner's cats using them for recreational urination. The low man on our totem pole got to count the bags wearing a mask, sealing everything in plastic bags that we could seal and ship directly to a refiner. He then went out and bought new clothes and burnt his old ones.
Let's say that he happened to spot a VF 1916-D dime in one of the bags. I could rinse it in acetone to neutralize it as best I could, but only God knows if that had removed all of the "foreign substance" or not.
That is a hypothetical. Here's a true story. Years ago, back in Detroit, I knew a vest pocket dealer who ranched in Wyoming after World War II. One day he was at a farm auction, and wandering around the property he happened to spot a silver dollar sticking out of a pile of horse manure. I guess it had rained the night before, and uncovered it. He quietly slipped it out of the pile and into his pocket. Later he washed it off, and found it was a CC.
Just wondering.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I wholeheartedly agree with what PCGS is doing.
That said, what happens when the device detects a foreign substance that got on the coin in an innocent manner? Years ago we bought in several bags of junk silver that had lain in a basement for years, with the owner's cats using them for recreational urination. The low man on our totem pole got to count the bags wearing a mask, sealing everything in plastic bags that we could seal and ship directly to a refiner. He then went out and bought new clothes and burnt his old ones.
Let's say that he happened to spot a VF 1916-D dime in one of the bags. I could rinse it in acetone to neutralize it as best I could, but only God knows if that had removed all of the "foreign substance" or not.
That is a hypothetical. Here's a true story. Years ago, back in Detroit, I knew a vest pocket dealer who ranched in Wyoming after World War II. One day he was at a farm auction, and wandering around the property he happened to spot a silver dollar sticking out of a pile of horse manure. I guess it had rained the night before, and uncovered it. He quietly slipped it out of the pile and into his pocket. Later he washed it off, and found it was a CC.
Just wondering. >>
It's all about criminal intent. You will be just fine under the scenario you laid out.
<< <i>Now is the time for NGC, ANA, ANS, and PNG to step up and join PCGS financially and in spirit in pursuing this lawsuit to the max.
If they don't they will lose whatever shine is left in my eyes.
Collectors are tired of this BS. >>
I whole-heartedly agree with this post...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Now is the time for NGC, ANA, ANS, and PNG to step up and join PCGS financially and in spirit in pursuing this lawsuit to the max.
This can not happen. Unless they are also injured by the same people, there is no way the groups listed above can join the PCGS complaint. What they should have done by now was issue statements of support. If they need to confer with their lawyers, what is the delay? Lawyers work on Saturdays.
The ANS is so full of old stogies they probably have no clue as to whats going on.
CoinGuy1 << In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that? >>
Barry <<You hit the nail on the head, Mark. It's all about what the dealer-members agreed to in the contract, was there a breach, and what, if any damages where sustained by PCGS due to that breach.
Barry continues <<This is not an ethics trial. ... It also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division.>>
The conservation practices of the NCS, an affiliate of the NGC, are not relevant to the allegations against the defendants in this particular case. All of the doctoring activities put forth in the complaint, if true, would be considered doctoring and harmful by the management of the NGC (and NCS) as well. Regarding coins submitted for numerical grades, my understanding is that the NGC prohibits its dealer-members from engraving the heads of Standing Liberty Quarters, lasering away imperfections, and adding metal. Barry, I think that you made a misleading point above. I have, however, been critical of the some of the practices of the NCS. Please see my article on 1893-S dollars, which is linked below.
The practices about which this case is about, if true, are very serious, definitely deceptive and indisputably harmful to the coins involved, to the PCGS, and to collectors in general.
Mr. Eureka <<I believe the language of the PCGS Dealer Agreement should be sufficient to nail a doctor or a doctor's accomplice, should PCGS choose to do so. (In fact, the dealer agreement creates so much potential liability for the dealer that I almost refused to sign it. But ultimately I signed it, because I was reasonably confident that PCGS would not target me.)>>
This point by MrEureka may be extremely important to this case. I agree with CoinGuy1 (Mark), Barry and MrEureka in that all the plaintiffs (PCGS) NEED to prove is that certain defendants are in gross violation of the member-dealer agreements in such ways that harm was done. The plaintiffs do not have to prove that coin doctoring is criminal or that it is illegal in general. Hopefully, in my view, the PCGS will prove that coin doctoring is illegal in general. In addition, it could be very plausibly argued that certain forms of coin doctoring, including some at issue in this case, are criminal activities. This is an area of law that is largely unexplored.
Comments
<< <i>Does the fact they do business in coins provide enough reasonable doubt that they knowingly submitted doctored coins? >>
The standard of proof in this case will not be reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt is for criminal cases.
I'm wondering why the defendants were sued as individuals and their corporations were not named.
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You can't buy a Volkswagon from a dealer for 20K, take it home and put a plastic Ferrari body kit on the frame and then have a friend return it to a Ferrari dealer stating you think the Ferrari is defective and receive an 80K return. It’s fake. When the coins are doctored they (in my opinion) become no longer original – they are something other than the mint made them to be – fake.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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<< <i>Does the fact they do business in coins provide enough reasonable doubt that they knowingly submitted doctored coins? >>
The standard of proof in this case will not be reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt is for criminal cases.
I'm wondering why the defendants were sued as individuals and their corporations were not named. >>
That's what John Does are for. Through discovery you find out all corporate, business, partnership names.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases.
<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
I agree 100% and hope that only the collectors, dealers, and graders with the highest standards survive this wave of corruption.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
"Multiple billionaires"?
On another note, here is what Legend wrote about the lawsuit on their website:
"
THE PCGS LAWSUIT
KUDOS PCGS!
Please, no one pinch me, this is one dream I do not want to end. My sincere congratulations to David Hall and Don Willis for taking the ultimate step in the fight on coin doctors-filing a lawsuit!
For years the situation with coin doctors has only been growing more desperate. The grading services have been fighting them as hard as they could privately. Every time they thought they had a handle, the coin docs just figured out new ways to continue their destruction. This lawsuit is not for glamour, rewards, or a money grab, it was a necessity. PCGS has done the absolute right thing. TO SEE A COPY OF THE SUIT, VISIT www.coinlink.com
LEGEND NUMISMATICS FULLY SUPPORTS THE COMPLAINT AND PLEDGES TO HELP PCGS BECOME VICTORIOUS.
THE DEALER CULTURE
There is a rotten to the core subculture of coin dealers close to these guys who truly believe that it is their right to doctor, recolor, or do whatever they please to coins for a living. These people have little respect and nothing but contempt for the grading services and the public. Its time they learn they are not above the law. I have already spoken to several dealers who making their living cracking out coins. They see no wrong because they do not consider themselves full coin doctors. Much to my shock, they have the attitude that PCGS is wrong and the complaint will be dismissed. WRONG!
Its mindboggling these greedy whores fail to realize is that FRAUD has been committed. One dealer said to me "Its the grading services job to not allow doctored coins to get through". True. However, it is against the law to try and defraud them by altering the coins they submit. Once this complaint starts progessing, the peripherial players will be exposed. Those are the guys who really have to be sweating right now. They are the ones who quietly sent coins off to these guys to have the work done for them while they look clean. I think you'll be shocked to see who some of these names are-especially including some well known longtime PNG members. Plus, sooner or later, it probably will be exposed about a few major firms who employ well known coin docs. They will be a tougher fight because they hire them and called them "conservationists or curators". In the end, they won't win-the evidence will be too overwhelming.
PCGS has started the fight "right". They are not just shooting the dark, they gathered the most facts and proof possible then waited for the right opportunity to file the complaint. There never was any secret among major dealers who the real coin doctors are. Dealers like myself were helpless to fight them other than to publicly complain (if you notice few of my fellow dealers ever stood up and spoke out). I could name most docs, I know who a lot of these guys are, however I would have been sued for sure. PCGS can file suit because they have been directly harmed and they have the physical evidence with the proven patterns of deciet these guys followed. It will be interesting to see the defense tactics the defendants will employ. In my opinion, the best they can do will be to deflect and totally deny. Too bad for the docs, facts are facts-no court or jury should rule against a consumer injury by fraud.
My only hope is that PCGS goes after as many of these guy as they can. The amount of serious coin doctors is actually small relative to the number of total dealers inthe business. However, the ones listed in this complaint are just the tip of the iceberg. There are others out there who mix chemicals, recolor coins, add frosting, etc. and brag about it within the dealer world. I have no sympathy for these guys. Their work has made my life miserable and has hurt collectors. They are not around when a customer comes back in a few months or a year or two to show me how the coin I sold turned (note: when a coin is first messed with it can be impossible to detect). Or how when a customer sells their collection and it has become all dreck and I am the one who has to tell them. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars buying coins back and I am sure the grading services have lost millions. Even if PCGS has to spend a million dollars on this suit, it will be cheaper for them in the long run. Names will be exposed and others will think twice about coin doctoring as a career. There won't be as many willing submittors these guys can hide behind either. What these bad guys do negatively affects everyone invloved in the hobby.
Also, it is my strong opinion, that ANY dealer who feels this suit is bogus or does not support it, is as guilty as the people named. How on earth could you not support a lawsuit against people ruining coins? PCGS has no reason to just pull names out of hat and go after any one they could. I also feel that any dealer who acted knowingly as a "mule" deserves to be punished as well. Why didn't any of these "mules" ever question why they were submitting coins for others? Altering a rare coin should be a crime, PERIOD. These guys are getting off light by only having to face a civil suit (in Chicago the FBI busted the baseball card guys for fraudulently tampering with cards years ago).
Finally, there is an organiztion (PCGS) doing some self policing and fighting for the collecting public. This suit was public most of the day yesterday. Why have other organizations-especially my beloved (NOT) PNG not commented? Who do they support? I fully understand that ALL of the people named in the suit are INNOCENT until proven guilty, but why can't the PNG at least come out and say something like "we do not condone coin doctoring"? I personally believe its because they know several more of their members WILL be involved. Remember, PNG calls itself the ultimate in consumer protection and claims to hold its dealers to the highest standards of ethics. I am pleased to say that this Wed I will be going in front of the PNG board of directors to discuss coin doctoring and the ramifications of it. I expect to be rubber stamped and not welcomed with huggies and kissys.
WE ALL NEED TO HELP IN THIS FIGHT
One lawsuit will not end the attempts of coin doctors. They are convinced they have a right and probably now feel they are at war with the services. What they do not realize is they are screwing the collector and the hobby in the end. Thats can only happen for so long before everyone is fed up. That time has come. The public needs to speak out more and push organizations with power-like the ANA and the PNG to take action. If collectors know of someone doctoring coins-even on small level, avoid them and tell the grading services. Make your dealer stay away from the bad guys. Write letters to Coin World or discuss the issue on collector forums. Yesterday, a small but significant step was taken in this critical war. We can win and stop the majority of the coin doctors!
This article is the opinion soley of the author, Laura Sperber.
Any comments, please feel free to email: lsperber1@hotmail.com NOTE: I am having email problems, so allow time for a response. " >>
What about leaning on Ebay a little heavier to rid the site of counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS plastic? Is it possible Ebay doesn't know counterfeit merchandise is being sold through their site? HA!
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you?
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
Trial attorney- 30 years... Bad statement period.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement.
I wish here in Canada, ICCS would have sued those ba**ards that were caught red handed actually switching coins in and out of the ICCS holders about 15 years ago.
Most Canadian coin collectors will know of whom I'm speaking.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
I'm saying appellate courts reverse and/or remand cases clearly decided contrary to the law. Thus, even if "sure thing" lawsuits lose at trial, they often win on appeal.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed".
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed". >>
Stick to what you know. It's certainly not law.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
I'm saying appellate courts reverse and/or remand cases clearly decided contrary to the law. Thus, even if "sure thing" lawsuits lose at trial, they often win on appeal. >>
You added "clearly decided contrary to the law". Not mentioned in your prior statement. That's the problem.
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<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees. >>
Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases. >>
Huh??? No lawsuit is a guaranteed winner. Why in the world would you make make such a sweeping generalization? Absolutely a false statement. >>
I'm an appellate attorney. How about you? >>
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And you're saying every case tried and appealed is reversed? Again, Awful foolish statement. >>
Especially, as an attorney, you know that "Appellate courts usually reverse and/or remand such cases " does not equate with "every case tried and appealed is reversed". >>
Stick to what you know. It's certainly not law. >>
I know that "usually" and "every" are two verry different things, legally and otherwise. And, that either accidentally or intentionally, you switched from one to another and equated them.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit.
<< <i>Stick to what you know. It's certainly not law. >>
There's no way I'd hire my lawyer to comment here. It would screw up my budget.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point.
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<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
I might be mistaken, but believe that Doug is an attorney. Either way, at least he is a gentleman.
Re Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. : I know that when I walked across the stage to receive my PhD in Economics, the one thought going through my mind was "Damn, I sure wish this was a JD degree I was receiving." I bet a lot of the other PhDs and MDs on this board had similar thoughts...
Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though.
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<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please ....
The lawsuit will be long and ugly and there are no guarantees.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
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<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer?
<< <i>Definitely a plus for numismatics.
The lawsuit will be long and ugly and there are no guarantees. >>
Perfect. Thank you Julian. Might I add I think there will be consequences to all of this that may not be so good for numismatics and a lot of people in the business.
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<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer?
Mark,
I did go inactive on my bar license two years ago, so no professional advice from me :0. I read the complaint and think it is a strong showing, as most complaints are. My suspicion is that PCGS has gathered the proper documentation and proof before filing suit and a few of these defendants (if not all) may get caught flatfooted. I was just marveling at what it would be like to be able to prepare for an action like this while the doctors continued to practice bad medicine and waiting for just the right fact patterns before filing the suit. That is a rare opportunity for an attorney. I also suspect that Mrs. Storm and her firm are merely local counsel and that Armen will be the lead. I haven't checked the records for a PHV, but there he is on the top of the complaint.
Venue ... I believe I would have looked at eligible forums for a coin collecting judge ...
<< <i>Congratulations PCGS, for cementing your brand and creating additional value add. You have been able to differentiate yourself in a compelling way, and the lawsuit will make all in the hobby aware of the implications. Your actions should make collectors much safer. >>
We already knew which side PCGS was on but this will make all
the hoaxsters think twice before pulling their shenanigans and
peddling their wares. It gives PCGS a better handle on consum-
er protection and might eventually leads to a way to attack the
Chinese counterfeiters and their minions who pedal the garbage.
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<< <i>touche, your attitude is exactly why many people dislike attorneys.
Let's get back to what's going on with the lawsuit. >>
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
There you go again. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. I won't bore you with the rest of my educational background. My father, grandfather, and father in law are also attorneys. My grandfather was a Judge for 26 years. I have known and been around many lawyers since I was a child. There are many, many fine ones out there who are great people and do great works.
I love the law, respect it, and the profession.... but not attitudes like yours. Your attitude makes me want to say "I hate lawyers," but for none of the reasons you suggested.
Back to the case please .... >>
So Doug, what do you think of the case, from an attorney's and collector's point of view, hypothetically, if you prefer?
Mark,
I did go inactive on my bar license two years ago, so no professional advice from me :0. I read the complaint and think it is a strong showing, as most complaints are. My suspicion is that PCGS has gathered the proper documentation and proof before filing suit and a few of these defendants (if not all) may get caught flatfooted. I was just marveling at what it would be like to be able to prepare for an action like this while the doctors continued to practice bad medicine and waiting for just the right fact patterns before filing the suit. That is a rare opportunity for an attorney. I also suspect that Mrs. Storm and her firm are merely local counsel and that Armen will be the lead. I haven't checked the records for a PHV, but there he is on the top of the complaint.
Venue ... I believe I would have looked at eligible forums for a coin collecting judge ...
Thanks Doug.
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Who is Armen? >>
Craig, I'm not Doug,
Educated folks understand the difference between "envy" and "jealously." Smart folks know when to shut up.
<< <i>Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point.
Educated folks understand the difference between "envy" and "jealously." Smart folks know when to shut up. >>
Then I strongly suggest you cease posting.
<< <i>Man, this sux. I just ordered 4 cases of Taco Bell napkins! >>
Don't throw good money after bad and eat the tacos.
<< <i>Doug
Who is Armen? >>
Mark is right. He is THE coin lawyer to have. Not that it is necessary for working with the laws contemplated in the lawsuit by any means, but he will have a familiarity with the subject matter that other lawyers wouldn't have. He will certainly be more acutely aware of the factual issues that will come up in the case, and will be able to dig into the right places better. All cases are made up of law and fact. PCGS doubled its bet by hiring Armen V.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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Larry
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Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
<< <i>
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You can't buy a Volkswagon from a dealer for 20K, take it home and put a plastic Ferrari body kit on the frame and then have a friend return it to a Ferrari dealer stating you think the Ferrari is defective and receive an 80K return. It’s fake. When the coins are doctored they (in my opinion) become no longer original – they are something other than the mint made them to be – fake. >>
NOW you tell me !........... and here I was wrapping my Studebaker in saran wrap to store in an elephants trunk !
I wouldn't be surprised by a settlement. But that's okay. The rest of the doctoring world has been put on notice. Kudos to PCGS!
Now if only their sniffer/detector toys could differentiate AT from NT, cleaned from not. Imagine the business it would bring in. Someday...
Lance.
That said, what happens when the device detects a foreign substance that got on the coin in an innocent manner? Years ago we bought in several bags of junk silver that had lain in a basement for years, with the owner's cats using them for recreational urination. The low man on our totem pole got to count the bags wearing a mask, sealing everything in plastic bags that we could seal and ship directly to a refiner. He then went out and bought new clothes and burnt his old ones.
Let's say that he happened to spot a VF 1916-D dime in one of the bags. I could rinse it in acetone to neutralize it as best I could, but only God knows if that had removed all of the "foreign substance" or not.
That is a hypothetical. Here's a true story. Years ago, back in Detroit, I knew a vest pocket dealer who ranched in Wyoming after World War II. One day he was at a farm auction, and wandering around the property he happened to spot a silver dollar sticking out of a pile of horse manure. I guess it had rained the night before, and uncovered it. He quietly slipped it out of the pile and into his pocket. Later he washed it off, and found it was a CC.
Just wondering.
<< <i>I wholeheartedly agree with what PCGS is doing.
That said, what happens when the device detects a foreign substance that got on the coin in an innocent manner? Years ago we bought in several bags of junk silver that had lain in a basement for years, with the owner's cats using them for recreational urination. The low man on our totem pole got to count the bags wearing a mask, sealing everything in plastic bags that we could seal and ship directly to a refiner. He then went out and bought new clothes and burnt his old ones.
Let's say that he happened to spot a VF 1916-D dime in one of the bags. I could rinse it in acetone to neutralize it as best I could, but only God knows if that had removed all of the "foreign substance" or not.
That is a hypothetical. Here's a true story. Years ago, back in Detroit, I knew a vest pocket dealer who ranched in Wyoming after World War II. One day he was at a farm auction, and wandering around the property he happened to spot a silver dollar sticking out of a pile of horse manure. I guess it had rained the night before, and uncovered it. He quietly slipped it out of the pile and into his pocket. Later he washed it off, and found it was a CC.
Just wondering. >>
It's all about criminal intent.
You will be just fine under the scenario you laid out.
peacockcoins
If they don't they will lose whatever shine is left in my eyes.
Collectors are tired of this BS.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Now is the time for NGC, ANA, ANS, and PNG to step up and join PCGS financially and in spirit in pursuing this lawsuit to the max.
If they don't they will lose whatever shine is left in my eyes.
Collectors are tired of this BS. >>
I whole-heartedly agree with this post...
This can not happen. Unless they are also injured by the same people, there is no way the groups listed above can join the PCGS complaint. What they should have done by now was issue statements of support. If they need to confer with their lawyers, what is the delay? Lawyers work on Saturdays.
The ANS is so full of old stogies they probably have no clue as to whats going on.
Barry <<You hit the nail on the head, Mark. It's all about what the dealer-members agreed to in the contract, was there a breach, and what, if any damages where sustained by PCGS due to that breach.
Barry continues <<This is not an ethics trial. ... It also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division.>>
The conservation practices of the NCS, an affiliate of the NGC, are not relevant to the allegations against the defendants in this particular case. All of the doctoring activities put forth in the complaint, if true, would be considered doctoring and harmful by the management of the NGC (and NCS) as well. Regarding coins submitted for numerical grades, my understanding is that the NGC prohibits its dealer-members from engraving the heads of Standing Liberty Quarters, lasering away imperfections, and adding metal. Barry, I think that you made a misleading point above. I have, however, been critical of the some of the practices of the NCS. Please see my article on 1893-S dollars, which is linked below.
The practices about which this case is about, if true, are very serious, definitely deceptive and indisputably harmful to the coins involved, to the PCGS, and to collectors in general.
Mr. Eureka <<I believe the language of the PCGS Dealer Agreement should be sufficient to nail a doctor or a doctor's accomplice, should PCGS choose to do so. (In fact, the dealer agreement creates so much potential liability for the dealer that I almost refused to sign it. But ultimately I signed it, because I was reasonably confident that PCGS would not target me.)>>
This point by MrEureka may be extremely important to this case. I agree with CoinGuy1 (Mark), Barry and MrEureka in that all the plaintiffs (PCGS) NEED to prove is that certain defendants are in gross violation of the member-dealer agreements in such ways that harm was done. The plaintiffs do not have to prove that coin doctoring is criminal or that it is illegal in general. Hopefully, in my view, the PCGS will prove that coin doctoring is illegal in general. In addition, it could be very plausibly argued that certain forms of coin doctoring, including some at issue in this case, are criminal activities. This is an area of law that is largely unexplored.
Complaint filed by CU-PCGS
Discussion of Conservation in article on Gem 1893-S dollar
My idea as to how the NGC can identify some doctored coins and discourage coin doctoring with technology that the NGC recently employed
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
PCGS Message Board Thread about Collecting Naturally Toned Coins Articles