Way to go PCGS! Way to use physics to ferret out the doctored coins! And I agree with Bidask:
<< <i>Bidask wrote: Nothing better than a good lawsuit to stop bad behavior......congrats PCGS!
But how are they going to prove it? >>
For example, consider the
<< <i>1879 $4 Stella gold piece, Originally submitted by Heritage on May 8, 2008. Resubmitted on August 28, 2009 by DiGenova after having been laser treated to remove lines. PCGS refused to grade the coin. >>
That's just one example of the many cited in the complaint that seem to leave a defendant wide open to claim it wasn't known that the submitted coin was doctored.
Would a pattern of doctored coins submitted by a defendent, or in an identifiable, structured collusion with other defendents, be enough to prove guilt?
Does the fact they do business in coins provide enough reasonable doubt that they knowingly submitted doctored coins? ("Well, my client sees a lot of coins. It's just bad luck that the only ones submitted happened to all be doctored.")
My guess is that PCGS has other more damning evidence that goes beyond the mere implication of guilt, and that it will be presented later, in court, if a settlement is not reached.
How early was the Secure Plus system being tested? Were the physics methods being used at that time, too? Other than comparing new submissions to prior auction photos like Heritage's, I wonder if PCGS's beta-testing itself caught a few before and after photos. Is it possible there is definitive evidence showing conclusive ownership trails of a coin before and after doctoring? The RICO aspect of the charges implies that, at least to this non-legal eagle.
<< <i>This is good news, but I can see a class action suit from the accused so I hope PCGS has all their information in order. Because of their accusations of these people and companies, they have been harmed financially. They must prove to a jury that what they did was wrong. Now tell a layman that you paid $55.00 for someone's opinion to grade a penny. The company then states it is a real penny. The penny can't be graded because PCGS can't tell if it is NT or AT. Takes their money and returns a un graded coin. PCGS this could be the end of you if you fail ... >>
In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that?
<< <i>Can't see the lawsuit sticking. If changing the surface of a coin were a crime, NCS would have been shut down long ago. Will also have to prove that submitter of coin is the person who altered the coin. I had a bunch of coins purchased from hsturn on ebay body bagged. Hope I'm not guilty of anything other than stupidity. >>
The premise of the lawsuit isn't what NCS does. NCS is mostly responsible for removing surface contaminants in an effort to preserve coins. Do they go overboard and strip coins too much sometimes? You bet, but PCGS slabs those coins, and they aren't suing anyone for sending in a cleaned coin. If for no other reason, that would be an impossible line to draw (cleaned vs. dipped and acceptable).
The lawsuit is against those who have done far worse doctoring, much of which seems to involve physically altering the surfaces to make the coin better than it is to achieve a huge boost in value (make a merc FB or an SLQ FH). >>
And how would that line of differentiation be drawn?
Also, playing devil's advocate, I am trying to figure out how this lawsuit is going to stick. Isn't it PCGS that graded the coin in the first place and missed the altered surfaces that then put the coin under the guarantee? If they missed it the first time around but caught it on the second trip into them, couldn't it be argued that PCGS brought the financial liability on themselves? I am assuming that these repurchased coins were still in the holder. I am not sure how they could rebuild a Liberty Head when it is inside the slab.
In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that?
Clearly in violation of the member agreement and clearly damage caused. With civil suits remember its a 50+% burden of proof.
PCGS is doing the right thing.
All those folks talking about AT/Dipping etc have no worries. Those activities for the most part take off contaminents. Adding metal, lasering is completely a different story. Think about it for a second or two.
If this were the auto industry and you rolled back the odometer and the buyer didn't realize it until later....what is that??? Clearly fruad. Washing the car, removing grease etc or putting new paint on it....totally different.
<< <i>This is good news, but I can see a class action suit from the accused so I hope PCGS has all their information in order. Because of their accusations of these people and companies, they have been harmed financially. They must prove to a jury that what they did was wrong. Now tell a layman that you paid $55.00 for someone's opinion to grade a penny. The company then states it is a real penny. The penny can't be graded because PCGS can't tell if it is NT or AT. Takes their money and returns a un graded coin. PCGS this could be the end of you if you fail ... >>
In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that? >>
I am not sure that the membership agreement is that important here - certainly it helps to establish wrongdoing, but I do not think it is necessary.
Consider the following scenario. Coin Doctor 'A' bought a coin, altered it, submitted it to PCGS. Accomplice 'A' bought it at auction, 'detected' the alteration, and sent the coin in to PCGS for review. PCGS paid the claim, and Doctor 'A' and Accomplice 'A' split the profit. This is a conspiracy to drefaud PCGS. If the coin was submitted through the US Mail, this is Mail Fraud - a Federal Crime. The conspiracy between the two brings in the criminal RICO statute. I have no idea if a Federal prosecutor would be inclined to pursue criminal charges, but it is certainly possible.
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You omitted what might be a crucial distinction in your analogy. If the person who did the body work represented that he had not done anything to the car and it was later discovered that he had, I think there would be a good case against him for fraud.
Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
PCGS is not going after meek guys who did questionable topical things to coins. What these people did was clear cut movement of metal and other alterations. They boldy attemped to defraud and injure PCGS and the collecting public. How could any jury not rule in favor of PCGS?
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You omitted what might be a crucial distinction in your analogy. If the person who did the body work represented that he had not done anything to the car and it was later discovered that he had, I think there would be a good case against him for fraud. >>
<< <i>In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that? >>
You hit the nail on the head, Marc. It's all about what the dealer-members agreed to in the contract, was there a breach, and what, if any damages where sustained by PCGS due to that breach.
This is not an ethics trial. All this banter about AT vs. NT, good cleaning vs. bad cleaning, etc. from a layman's perspective is a bunch of trivial nonsense, not up there with in importance with oil spills and world peace. It also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division.
Chicago has an ordinance that says that a taxicab cannot be a car that was totalled and rebuilt. It is a safety measure.
With 6,000 cabs on the street, it would not be surprising to find one or two independent cabs that were indeed rebuilt. You give the owner a fine and tell him he can't drive that car anymore.
A five-year-old cab company owned by a Russian immigrant was just found to have over 300 totalled and rebuilt cars on the street. That cannot be coincidence. Should this be a criminal case?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
So who is going to be the first to cop a plea and settle with PCGS? Who is going to be the first to cop a plea and turn against the other Dr's? Is Superior a public company? Time to short that one and go long CLCT.
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees.
Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win.
<< <i>also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division. >>
I was trying hard to stay out of this conversation, but that's just idiotic. If you guys can't see the difference between removing contaminants, and lasering or applying putty, you need to get a new hobby.
I was concerned after the removal of the copper guarantee since I am a copper collector. David was courteous enough to talk to me about 20 minutes at the FUN show. I told him I had a couple of coins in my set that I was concerned about, and he said PCGS would take care of me on them if they are doctored. Since then, I have not even looked at a single coin that was not in an older holder because I didn't want the risk and disappointment.
In taking this aggressive action, PCGS has restored my confidence that they really do care about me (the collector). My previous concern with this was that PCGS has known about it and continued to allow it to go on thereby protecting these crooks.
For now, I am going to feel much better buying freshly graded "secure" PCGS coins, and I will continue to exclusively support a company that is going to be an advocate for collectors like me.
Just what I wanted to do...read another lawsuit on my first day of the 3 day weekend. Couldn't resist though. Occupational hazard.
My running steam of thought... * This is a 'first amended' complaint. How does it differ from the original? * There is a lot of vague, conclusionary, accusational language in the complaint...but very little specific facts on the key issue of 'knowledge' and/or intent to deceive. Some of the counts alleged must be pled with specificity...meaning you can't just get by with making conclusory allegations * There will be several counts of the complaint lost or knocked out by well crafted Motions to Dismiss * It's missing allegations which would suggest that PCGS has a disgruntled former employee of defendant's or someone 'one the inside' who has turned on the rest. Frequently when reading allegations in a complaint you can tell that the only source of the information would have been someone on the inside. This Complaint is missing that. If they do have cooperative former 'bad guys'...they aren't tipping their hand with the initial complaint. *Wonder if PCGS timing on the suit was forced by the dispute over whether they would return the 2 coins they are holding onto. The coin owners were threatening their own suit for conversion (which will certainly now come as a counterclaim) and would have let the cat out of the bag had the owners beat PCGS to the courthouse. *PCGS would be thrilled if the named Defendants 'banded together' and hired the same counsel. It would make their allegations and inference of collusion and cooperation that much more believable to a Judge and/or jury. The Defendants need a 'coordinated defense', but they clearly need separate counsel. Not a time to start pinching pennies. *PCGS knows they are in for the fight of their lives because they are going after peoples livihoods AND reputations. Counterclaims are certain to come and will rachet up the stakes for PCGS.
Bottom line...PCGS attorneys are going to busy defending their Complaint against Motions to Dismiss for months. If they don't have an 'inside guy' or 'mole' who will eventually be able to get up on the stand and say, in essence, 'I know these Defendants knew these coins were doctored...because they had me do it for them'; then they better get one, preferably 3 or more, because the Defendant's are going to have plenty of their own mud to sling towards anyone cooperating with PCGS. It's a tough case to win strictly from a legal, procedural and proof standpoint, a fact that I'm sure is not news to PCGS.
Interesting that PCGS' lead counsel on the case is fairly young (just 7 years practicing). This might be the "fight of her life". But, there is something to be said for a lawyer with 6-8 years experience and I know from experience that you can be really "hungry to win" at that stage of your career (and can still work 18 hours a day at it if you need to). Best of luck to her!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Interesting that PCGS' lead counsel on the case is fairly young (just 7 years practicing). This might be the "fight of her life". But, there is something to be said for a lawyer with 6-8 years experience and I know from experience that you can be really "hungry to win" at that stage of your career (and can still work 18 hours a day at it if you need to). Best of luck to her!
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, for a myriad of reasons, do you see this one ever getting inside a courtroom?
Pat: From your comment, I assume you obviously doubt it. And, as you know, a large % of cases never do, so you may be right. But, IMHO, I do not see this case going away too quickly. There is simply too much at stake.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke. >>
I'm not so sure about that. I suspect at least a couple of the named are wealthy enuff to absorb the penalties.
It could be akin to the Mexican drug lord who is unaffected by huge fines and enormous bail bonds (albeit not on the same scale: the entire TPG industry would fit in a drug lord's watch pocket!)
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
<< <i>Pat: From your comment, I assume you obviously doubt it. And, as you know, a large % of cases never do, so you may be right. But, IMHO, I do not see this case going away too quickly. There is simply too much at stake.
Wondercoin >>
The case has merits, no doubt. Strong ones. But like you Mitch, I know this is a civil case (not criminal) so it is money that is on the line. No one is going to prison here. I see a possible meeting of the minds and a settlement instead of drawn out litigation.
<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
"Multiple billionaires"?
On another note, here is what Legend wrote about the lawsuit on their website:
" THE PCGS LAWSUIT
KUDOS PCGS!
Please, no one pinch me, this is one dream I do not want to end. My sincere congratulations to David Hall and Don Willis for taking the ultimate step in the fight on coin doctors-filing a lawsuit!
For years the situation with coin doctors has only been growing more desperate. The grading services have been fighting them as hard as they could privately. Every time they thought they had a handle, the coin docs just figured out new ways to continue their destruction. This lawsuit is not for glamour, rewards, or a money grab, it was a necessity. PCGS has done the absolute right thing. TO SEE A COPY OF THE SUIT, VISIT www.coinlink.com
LEGEND NUMISMATICS FULLY SUPPORTS THE COMPLAINT AND PLEDGES TO HELP PCGS BECOME VICTORIOUS.
THE DEALER CULTURE
There is a rotten to the core subculture of coin dealers close to these guys who truly believe that it is their right to doctor, recolor, or do whatever they please to coins for a living. These people have little respect and nothing but contempt for the grading services and the public. Its time they learn they are not above the law. I have already spoken to several dealers who making their living cracking out coins. They see no wrong because they do not consider themselves full coin doctors. Much to my shock, they have the attitude that PCGS is wrong and the complaint will be dismissed. WRONG!
Its mindboggling these greedy whores fail to realize is that FRAUD has been committed. One dealer said to me "Its the grading services job to not allow doctored coins to get through". True. However, it is against the law to try and defraud them by altering the coins they submit. Once this complaint starts progessing, the peripherial players will be exposed. Those are the guys who really have to be sweating right now. They are the ones who quietly sent coins off to these guys to have the work done for them while they look clean. I think you'll be shocked to see who some of these names are-especially including some well known longtime PNG members. Plus, sooner or later, it probably will be exposed about a few major firms who employ well known coin docs. They will be a tougher fight because they hire them and called them "conservationists or curators". In the end, they won't win-the evidence will be too overwhelming.
PCGS has started the fight "right". They are not just shooting the dark, they gathered the most facts and proof possible then waited for the right opportunity to file the complaint. There never was any secret among major dealers who the real coin doctors are. Dealers like myself were helpless to fight them other than to publicly complain (if you notice few of my fellow dealers ever stood up and spoke out). I could name most docs, I know who a lot of these guys are, however I would have been sued for sure. PCGS can file suit because they have been directly harmed and they have the physical evidence with the proven patterns of deciet these guys followed. It will be interesting to see the defense tactics the defendants will employ. In my opinion, the best they can do will be to deflect and totally deny. Too bad for the docs, facts are facts-no court or jury should rule against a consumer injury by fraud.
My only hope is that PCGS goes after as many of these guy as they can. The amount of serious coin doctors is actually small relative to the number of total dealers inthe business. However, the ones listed in this complaint are just the tip of the iceberg. There are others out there who mix chemicals, recolor coins, add frosting, etc. and brag about it within the dealer world. I have no sympathy for these guys. Their work has made my life miserable and has hurt collectors. They are not around when a customer comes back in a few months or a year or two to show me how the coin I sold turned (note: when a coin is first messed with it can be impossible to detect). Or how when a customer sells their collection and it has become all dreck and I am the one who has to tell them. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars buying coins back and I am sure the grading services have lost millions. Even if PCGS has to spend a million dollars on this suit, it will be cheaper for them in the long run. Names will be exposed and others will think twice about coin doctoring as a career. There won't be as many willing submittors these guys can hide behind either. What these bad guys do negatively affects everyone invloved in the hobby.
Also, it is my strong opinion, that ANY dealer who feels this suit is bogus or does not support it, is as guilty as the people named. How on earth could you not support a lawsuit against people ruining coins? PCGS has no reason to just pull names out of hat and go after any one they could. I also feel that any dealer who acted knowingly as a "mule" deserves to be punished as well. Why didn't any of these "mules" ever question why they were submitting coins for others? Altering a rare coin should be a crime, PERIOD. These guys are getting off light by only having to face a civil suit (in Chicago the FBI busted the baseball card guys for fraudulently tampering with cards years ago).
Finally, there is an organiztion (PCGS) doing some self policing and fighting for the collecting public. This suit was public most of the day yesterday. Why have other organizations-especially my beloved (NOT) PNG not commented? Who do they support? I fully understand that ALL of the people named in the suit are INNOCENT until proven guilty, but why can't the PNG at least come out and say something like "we do not condone coin doctoring"? I personally believe its because they know several more of their members WILL be involved. Remember, PNG calls itself the ultimate in consumer protection and claims to hold its dealers to the highest standards of ethics. I am pleased to say that this Wed I will be going in front of the PNG board of directors to discuss coin doctoring and the ramifications of it. I expect to be rubber stamped and not welcomed with huggies and kissys.
WE ALL NEED TO HELP IN THIS FIGHT
One lawsuit will not end the attempts of coin doctors. They are convinced they have a right and probably now feel they are at war with the services. What they do not realize is they are screwing the collector and the hobby in the end. Thats can only happen for so long before everyone is fed up. That time has come. The public needs to speak out more and push organizations with power-like the ANA and the PNG to take action. If collectors know of someone doctoring coins-even on small level, avoid them and tell the grading services. Make your dealer stay away from the bad guys. Write letters to Coin World or discuss the issue on collector forums. Yesterday, a small but significant step was taken in this critical war. We can win and stop the majority of the coin doctors!
This article is the opinion soley of the author, Laura Sperber.
Any comments, please feel free to email: lsperber1@hotmail.com NOTE: I am having email problems, so allow time for a response. "
Congratulations PCGS, for cementing your brand and creating additional value add. You have been able to differentiate yourself in a compelling way, and the lawsuit will make all in the hobby aware of the implications. Your actions should make collectors much safer.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Why dont they just put Doctored coin on the holder let them think of what there are doing. If you just put Gen on the holder you are not helping anyone but your self.
When the list of names comes out, and proof is shown they were involved, I will not deal (buy or sell) with them again. I think, as a collector, that's the best I can do.
This puts PCGS into the category of "businesses that I'm glad I do business with because they are benefiting my investments by protecting the hobby". That's true even if the doctoring only involves classic coins and even if none of my Large Cents are slabbed.
I appreciate this, and I will continue to support PCGS with my submissions of Moderns, small as they are. Way to be, PCGS!
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>That's just one example of the many cited in the complaint that seem to leave a defendant wide open to claim it wasn't known that the submitted coin was doctored.
Would a pattern of doctored coins submitted by a defendent ... be enough to prove guilt? >>
In a civil trial, with a "preponderance of the evidence" burden of proof -- perhaps so. In a criminal "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, I wouldn't think that is enough.
I truely believe this was PCGS's original "Big One" but got delayed for logistical and legal reasons. I also believe the "Big One" that did get publicized was just a last minute replacement. In any case this is now the "Bigger One."
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I truely believe this was PCGS's original "Big One" but got delayed for logistical and legal reasons. I also believe the "Big One" that did get publicized was just a last minute replacement. In any case this is now the "Bigger One." >>
You may be right.
I wonder why it came out at 4:30 on a Friday before a three-day weekend with no major shows?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i><< I truely believe this was PCGS's original "Big One" but got delayed for logistical and legal reasons. I also believe the "Big One" that did get publicized was just a last minute replacement. In any case this is now the "Bigger One." >>
You may be right.
I wonder why it came out at 4:30 on a Friday before a three-day weekend with no major shows?
Comments
<< <i>Bidask wrote: Nothing better than a good lawsuit to stop bad behavior......congrats PCGS!
But how are they going to prove it? >>
For example, consider the
<< <i>1879 $4 Stella gold piece, Originally submitted by Heritage on May 8, 2008. Resubmitted on August 28, 2009 by DiGenova after having been laser treated to remove lines. PCGS refused to grade the coin. >>
That's just one example of the many cited in the complaint that seem to leave a defendant wide open to claim it wasn't known that the submitted coin was doctored.
Would a pattern of doctored coins submitted by a defendent, or in an identifiable, structured collusion with other defendents, be enough to prove guilt?
Does the fact they do business in coins provide enough reasonable doubt that they knowingly submitted doctored coins? ("Well, my client sees a lot of coins. It's just bad luck that the only ones submitted happened to all be doctored.")
My guess is that PCGS has other more damning evidence that goes beyond the mere implication of guilt, and that it will be presented later, in court, if a settlement is not reached.
How early was the Secure Plus system being tested? Were the physics methods being used at that time, too? Other than comparing new submissions to prior auction photos like Heritage's, I wonder if PCGS's beta-testing itself caught a few before and after photos. Is it possible there is definitive evidence showing conclusive ownership trails of a coin before and after doctoring? The RICO aspect of the charges implies that, at least to this non-legal eagle.
--tychojoe
<< <i>This is good news, but I can see a class action suit from the accused so I hope PCGS has all their information in order. Because of their accusations of these people and companies, they have been harmed financially. They must prove to a jury that what they did was wrong. Now tell a layman that you paid $55.00 for someone's opinion to grade a penny. The company then states it is a real penny. The penny can't be graded because PCGS can't tell if it is NT or AT. Takes their money and returns a un graded coin. PCGS this could be the end of you if you fail ... >>
In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that?
and the blood will flow in the streets of Coinland
<< <i>
<< <i>Can't see the lawsuit sticking. If changing the surface of a coin were a crime, NCS would have been shut down long ago. Will also have to prove that submitter of coin is the person who altered the coin. I had a bunch of coins purchased from hsturn on ebay body bagged. Hope I'm not guilty of anything other than stupidity. >>
The premise of the lawsuit isn't what NCS does. NCS is mostly responsible for removing surface contaminants in an effort to preserve coins. Do they go overboard and strip coins too much sometimes? You bet, but PCGS slabs those coins, and they aren't suing anyone for sending in a cleaned coin. If for no other reason, that would be an impossible line to draw (cleaned vs. dipped and acceptable).
The lawsuit is against those who have done far worse doctoring, much of which seems to involve physically altering the surfaces to make the coin better than it is to achieve a huge boost in value (make a merc FB or an SLQ FH). >>
And how would that line of differentiation be drawn?
Also, playing devil's advocate, I am trying to figure out how this lawsuit is going to stick. Isn't it PCGS that graded the coin in the first place and missed the altered surfaces that then put the coin under the guarantee? If they missed it the first time around but caught it on the second trip into them, couldn't it be argued that PCGS brought the financial liability on themselves? I am assuming that these repurchased coins were still in the holder. I am not sure how they could rebuild a Liberty Head when it is inside the slab.
Clearly in violation of the member agreement and clearly damage caused. With civil suits remember its a 50+% burden of proof.
PCGS is doing the right thing.
All those folks talking about AT/Dipping etc have no worries. Those activities for the most part take off contaminents. Adding metal, lasering is completely a different story. Think about it for a second or two.
If this were the auto industry and you rolled back the odometer and the buyer didn't realize it until later....what is that??? Clearly fruad. Washing the car, removing grease etc or putting new paint on it....totally different.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>This is good news, but I can see a class action suit from the accused so I hope PCGS has all their information in order. Because of their accusations of these people and companies, they have been harmed financially. They must prove to a jury that what they did was wrong. Now tell a layman that you paid $55.00 for someone's opinion to grade a penny. The company then states it is a real penny. The penny can't be graded because PCGS can't tell if it is NT or AT. Takes their money and returns a un graded coin. PCGS this could be the end of you if you fail ... >>
In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that? >>
I am not sure that the membership agreement is that important here - certainly it helps to establish wrongdoing, but I do not think it is necessary.
Consider the following scenario. Coin Doctor 'A' bought a coin, altered it, submitted it to PCGS. Accomplice 'A' bought it at auction, 'detected' the alteration, and sent the coin in to PCGS for review. PCGS paid the claim, and Doctor 'A' and Accomplice 'A' split the profit. This is a conspiracy to drefaud PCGS. If the coin was submitted through the US Mail, this is Mail Fraud - a Federal Crime. The conspiracy between the two brings in the criminal RICO statute. I have no idea if a Federal prosecutor would be inclined to pursue criminal charges, but it is certainly possible.
merse
he doesn't take the time to thoroughly check it out and certifies in writing that it was not rolled back .
Later it is determined the odometer was indeed rolled back -
You know how hard it would be to prove I rolled it back ?
It would be matter of fact though to prove with the certificate that the Dealer said it wasn't .
I disagree ;
washing a coin in dip , removing "gunk" with a laser , or putting on new "paint" in the form of adding a coat of toning ......not different
but a coat of metal/putty and reworking it to better than new condition
as the examples of FH quarters and FB dimes cited in the suit
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You omitted what might be a crucial distinction in your analogy. If the person who did the body work represented that he had not done anything to the car and it was later discovered that he had, I think there would be a good case against him for fraud.
PCGS is not going after meek guys who did questionable topical things to coins. What these people did was clear cut movement of metal and other alterations. They boldy attemped to defraud and injure PCGS and the collecting public. How could any jury not rule in favor of PCGS?
<< <i>
<< <i>.....go a step further , take the car I rolled back the odometer on , say I also did body work on it -
I sanded down some scratches, used a grinder to get into the metals surface , added some Bondo and painted over the
work . I also buffed out some minor scratches on the hood , all in an an attempt to enhance the cars value so I could sell it for more money .
Then I take it to CarMax and they buy it , they do their 48 point inspection and sell the car without divulging the buffing or bodywork.
What court is going to prosecute anyone in this case if the buyer detects the bodywork and sues me and/or CarMax ?
No , this is a gigantic can of worms - and the implications and ramifications are far reaching indeed >>
You omitted what might be a crucial distinction in your analogy. If the person who did the body work represented that he had not done anything to the car and it was later discovered that he had, I think there would be a good case against him for fraud. >>
yes, I will give you that Mark
<< <i>In order to be successful, I would guess that PCGS needs to prove that the defendants were in violation of their membership agreements, as per the details included in the complaint. And that harm was caused. That might not be the same thing (or nearly as difficult) as proving that the defendants' activity itself, was "wrong". What do you folks think about that? >>
You hit the nail on the head, Marc. It's all about what the dealer-members agreed to in the contract, was there a breach, and what, if any damages where sustained by PCGS due to that breach.
This is not an ethics trial. All this banter about AT vs. NT, good cleaning vs. bad cleaning, etc. from a layman's perspective is a bunch of trivial nonsense, not up there with in importance with oil spills and world peace. It also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division.
<< <i>
<< <i>What a terrible day for RYK to swear off he forums for the summer! >>
I just made the same comment in his "Out of the 'Loupe'" thread. Great minds!
ttt for fun, and for regular coin guys.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
With 6,000 cabs on the street, it would not be surprising to find one or two independent cabs that were indeed rebuilt. You give the owner a fine and tell him he can't drive that car anymore.
A five-year-old cab company owned by a Russian immigrant was just found to have over 300 totalled and rebuilt cars on the street. That cannot be coincidence. Should this be a criminal case?
TD
<< <i>Read the suit. The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke.
Learn the law. "Sure thing" lawsuits are lost all the time. Sometimes the losing party even pays the other sides attorney fees.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win.
<< <i>also doesn't help PCGS' case that NGC has a coin-doctoring division. >>
I was trying hard to stay out of this conversation, but that's just idiotic. If you guys can't see the difference between removing contaminants, and lasering or applying putty, you need to get a new hobby.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
I was concerned after the removal of the copper guarantee since I am a copper collector. David was courteous enough to talk to me about 20 minutes at the FUN show. I told him I had a couple of coins in my set that I was concerned about, and he said PCGS would take care of me on them if they are doctored. Since then, I have not even looked at a single coin that was not in an older holder because I didn't want the risk and disappointment.
In taking this aggressive action, PCGS has restored my confidence that they really do care about me (the collector). My previous concern with this was that PCGS has known about it and continued to allow it to go on thereby protecting these crooks.
For now, I am going to feel much better buying freshly graded "secure" PCGS coins, and I will continue to exclusively support a company that is going to be an advocate for collectors like me.
Here is what she has to say: "KUDOS PCGS! "
My running steam of thought...
* This is a 'first amended' complaint. How does it differ from the original?
* There is a lot of vague, conclusionary, accusational language in the complaint...but very little specific facts on the key issue of 'knowledge' and/or intent to deceive. Some of the counts alleged must be pled with specificity...meaning you can't just get by with making conclusory allegations
* There will be several counts of the complaint lost or knocked out by well crafted Motions to Dismiss
* It's missing allegations which would suggest that PCGS has a disgruntled former employee of defendant's or someone 'one the inside' who has turned on the rest. Frequently when reading allegations in a complaint you can tell that the only source of the information would have been someone on the inside. This Complaint is missing that. If they do have cooperative former 'bad guys'...they aren't tipping their hand with the initial complaint.
*Wonder if PCGS timing on the suit was forced by the dispute over whether they would return the 2 coins they are holding onto. The coin owners were threatening their own suit for conversion (which will certainly now come as a counterclaim) and would have let the cat out of the bag had the owners beat PCGS to the courthouse.
*PCGS would be thrilled if the named Defendants 'banded together' and hired the same counsel. It would make their allegations and inference of collusion and cooperation that much more believable to a Judge and/or jury. The Defendants need a 'coordinated defense', but they clearly need separate counsel. Not a time to start pinching pennies.
*PCGS knows they are in for the fight of their lives because they are going after peoples livihoods AND reputations. Counterclaims are certain to come and will rachet up the stakes for PCGS.
Bottom line...PCGS attorneys are going to busy defending their Complaint against Motions to Dismiss for months. If they don't have an 'inside guy' or 'mole' who will eventually be able to get up on the stand and say, in essence, 'I know these Defendants knew these coins were doctored...because they had me do it for them'; then they better get one, preferably 3 or more, because the Defendant's are going to have plenty of their own mud to sling towards anyone cooperating with PCGS. It's a tough case to win strictly from a legal, procedural and proof standpoint, a fact that I'm sure is not news to PCGS.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
KUDOS!!!!!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Wondercoin
<< <i>Interesting that PCGS' lead counsel on the case is fairly young (just 7 years practicing). This might be the "fight of her life". But, there is something to be said for a lawyer with 6-8 years experience and I know from experience that you can be really "hungry to win" at that stage of your career (and can still work 18 hours a day at it if you need to). Best of luck to her!
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, for a myriad of reasons, do you see this one ever getting inside a courtroom?
peacockcoins
Wondercoin
<< <i> The defendants violated the PCGS agreement. These guys won't have two cents left after this. Even if by some stroke of bad luck PCGS should lose, the monies it will cost the crooks to fight this will make them go broke. >>
I'm not so sure about that. I suspect at least a couple of the named are wealthy enuff to absorb the penalties.
It could be akin to the Mexican drug lord who is unaffected by huge fines and enormous bail bonds (albeit not on the same scale: the entire TPG industry would fit in a drug lord's watch pocket!)
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Pat: From your comment, I assume you obviously doubt it. And, as you know, a large % of cases never do, so you may be right. But, IMHO, I do not see this case going away too quickly. There is simply too much at stake.
Wondercoin >>
The case has merits, no doubt. Strong ones. But like you Mitch, I know this is a civil case (not criminal) so it is money that is on the line. No one is going to prison here.
I see a possible meeting of the minds and a settlement instead of drawn out litigation.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Can't wait to read Laura's blog this weekend. Now we know why some of her other blogs were taken down; PCGS was building a case against these thugs and she didn't know the whole story. Now she does.
This is truly a David vs Goliath case. PCGS is a $100M company and they are going after multiple Billionaires. If you love coin collecting then you must love their stance on this. They are truly the tip of the spear trying to do the right thing. The best way to support them, is to give them your business. The outcome of this case will dictate how this hobby will go for generations to come. PCGS must win. >>
"Multiple billionaires"?
On another note, here is what Legend wrote about the lawsuit on their website:
"
THE PCGS LAWSUIT
KUDOS PCGS!
Please, no one pinch me, this is one dream I do not want to end. My sincere congratulations to David Hall and Don Willis for taking the ultimate step in the fight on coin doctors-filing a lawsuit!
For years the situation with coin doctors has only been growing more desperate. The grading services have been fighting them as hard as they could privately. Every time they thought they had a handle, the coin docs just figured out new ways to continue their destruction. This lawsuit is not for glamour, rewards, or a money grab, it was a necessity. PCGS has done the absolute right thing. TO SEE A COPY OF THE SUIT, VISIT www.coinlink.com
LEGEND NUMISMATICS FULLY SUPPORTS THE COMPLAINT AND PLEDGES TO HELP PCGS BECOME VICTORIOUS.
THE DEALER CULTURE
There is a rotten to the core subculture of coin dealers close to these guys who truly believe that it is their right to doctor, recolor, or do whatever they please to coins for a living. These people have little respect and nothing but contempt for the grading services and the public. Its time they learn they are not above the law. I have already spoken to several dealers who making their living cracking out coins. They see no wrong because they do not consider themselves full coin doctors. Much to my shock, they have the attitude that PCGS is wrong and the complaint will be dismissed. WRONG!
Its mindboggling these greedy whores fail to realize is that FRAUD has been committed. One dealer said to me "Its the grading services job to not allow doctored coins to get through". True. However, it is against the law to try and defraud them by altering the coins they submit. Once this complaint starts progessing, the peripherial players will be exposed. Those are the guys who really have to be sweating right now. They are the ones who quietly sent coins off to these guys to have the work done for them while they look clean. I think you'll be shocked to see who some of these names are-especially including some well known longtime PNG members. Plus, sooner or later, it probably will be exposed about a few major firms who employ well known coin docs. They will be a tougher fight because they hire them and called them "conservationists or curators". In the end, they won't win-the evidence will be too overwhelming.
PCGS has started the fight "right". They are not just shooting the dark, they gathered the most facts and proof possible then waited for the right opportunity to file the complaint. There never was any secret among major dealers who the real coin doctors are. Dealers like myself were helpless to fight them other than to publicly complain (if you notice few of my fellow dealers ever stood up and spoke out). I could name most docs, I know who a lot of these guys are, however I would have been sued for sure. PCGS can file suit because they have been directly harmed and they have the physical evidence with the proven patterns of deciet these guys followed. It will be interesting to see the defense tactics the defendants will employ. In my opinion, the best they can do will be to deflect and totally deny. Too bad for the docs, facts are facts-no court or jury should rule against a consumer injury by fraud.
My only hope is that PCGS goes after as many of these guy as they can. The amount of serious coin doctors is actually small relative to the number of total dealers inthe business. However, the ones listed in this complaint are just the tip of the iceberg. There are others out there who mix chemicals, recolor coins, add frosting, etc. and brag about it within the dealer world. I have no sympathy for these guys. Their work has made my life miserable and has hurt collectors. They are not around when a customer comes back in a few months or a year or two to show me how the coin I sold turned (note: when a coin is first messed with it can be impossible to detect). Or how when a customer sells their collection and it has become all dreck and I am the one who has to tell them. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars buying coins back and I am sure the grading services have lost millions. Even if PCGS has to spend a million dollars on this suit, it will be cheaper for them in the long run. Names will be exposed and others will think twice about coin doctoring as a career. There won't be as many willing submittors these guys can hide behind either. What these bad guys do negatively affects everyone invloved in the hobby.
Also, it is my strong opinion, that ANY dealer who feels this suit is bogus or does not support it, is as guilty as the people named. How on earth could you not support a lawsuit against people ruining coins? PCGS has no reason to just pull names out of hat and go after any one they could. I also feel that any dealer who acted knowingly as a "mule" deserves to be punished as well. Why didn't any of these "mules" ever question why they were submitting coins for others? Altering a rare coin should be a crime, PERIOD. These guys are getting off light by only having to face a civil suit (in Chicago the FBI busted the baseball card guys for fraudulently tampering with cards years ago).
Finally, there is an organiztion (PCGS) doing some self policing and fighting for the collecting public. This suit was public most of the day yesterday. Why have other organizations-especially my beloved (NOT) PNG not commented? Who do they support? I fully understand that ALL of the people named in the suit are INNOCENT until proven guilty, but why can't the PNG at least come out and say something like "we do not condone coin doctoring"? I personally believe its because they know several more of their members WILL be involved. Remember, PNG calls itself the ultimate in consumer protection and claims to hold its dealers to the highest standards of ethics. I am pleased to say that this Wed I will be going in front of the PNG board of directors to discuss coin doctoring and the ramifications of it. I expect to be rubber stamped and not welcomed with huggies and kissys.
WE ALL NEED TO HELP IN THIS FIGHT
One lawsuit will not end the attempts of coin doctors. They are convinced they have a right and probably now feel they are at war with the services. What they do not realize is they are screwing the collector and the hobby in the end. Thats can only happen for so long before everyone is fed up. That time has come. The public needs to speak out more and push organizations with power-like the ANA and the PNG to take action. If collectors know of someone doctoring coins-even on small level, avoid them and tell the grading services. Make your dealer stay away from the bad guys. Write letters to Coin World or discuss the issue on collector forums. Yesterday, a small but significant step was taken in this critical war. We can win and stop the majority of the coin doctors!
This article is the opinion soley of the author, Laura Sperber.
Any comments, please feel free to email: lsperber1@hotmail.com NOTE: I am having email problems, so allow time for a response. "
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
AB
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Hoard the keys.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
"We firmly believe coin doctoring to alter a coin's appearance is clearly illegal under the law", Hall continued, >>
I doubt PCGS will be successful in proving that.
<< <i>WE ALL NEED TO HELP IN THIS FIGHT >>
When the list of names comes out, and proof is shown they were involved, I will not deal (buy or sell) with them again. I think, as a collector, that's the best I can do.
<< <i>
<< <i>
"We firmly believe coin doctoring to alter a coin's appearance is clearly illegal under the law", Hall continued, >>
I doubt PCGS will be successful in proving that. >>
I doubt that they will try to prove that - they don't need to in order to win the lawsuit.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I appreciate this, and I will continue to support PCGS with my submissions of Moderns, small as they are. Way to be, PCGS!
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>That's just one example of the many cited in the complaint that seem to leave a defendant wide open to claim it wasn't known that the submitted coin was doctored.
Would a pattern of doctored coins submitted by a defendent ... be enough to prove guilt? >>
In a civil trial, with a "preponderance of the evidence" burden of proof -- perhaps so. In a criminal "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, I wouldn't think that is enough.
Way to go PCGS
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I truely believe this was PCGS's original "Big One" but got delayed for logistical and legal reasons. I also believe the "Big One" that did get publicized was just a last minute replacement. In any case this is now the "Bigger One." >>
You may be right.
I wonder why it came out at 4:30 on a Friday before a three-day weekend with no major shows?
TD
<< <i><< I truely believe this was PCGS's original "Big One" but got delayed for logistical and legal reasons. I also believe the "Big One" that did get publicized was just a last minute replacement. In any case this is now the "Bigger One." >>
You may be right.
I wonder why it came out at 4:30 on a Friday before a three-day weekend with no major shows?
TD >>
Perhaps to avoid chaos.