<< <i>Now is the time for NGC, ANA, ANS, and PNG to step up and join PCGS financially and in spirit in pursuing this lawsuit to the max.
This can not happen. Unless they are also injured by the same people, there is no way the groups listed above can join the PCGS complaint. What they should have done by now was issue statements of support. If they need to confer with their lawyers, what is the delay? Lawyers work on Saturdays.
The ANS is so full of old stogies they probably have no clue as to whats going on. >>
They should have supported this as it is a worth cause.
If these guys are found guilty they could face individual suits from coins they doctored and submitted to pcgs. Someone purchased these coins and overpaid and we the victims of fraud. I would not want to be in their shoes.
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Most people, like you, have a jealousy of attorneys because they could never be one. I suspect very strongly this is exactly the case with someone like you. It's the least educated that are the first to cry "I hate lawyers". Thanks for proving my point. >>
I think most people dislike people in a profession that are crooks - and some lawyers fit in that category
I wholeheartly support PCGS on this. It is long overdue. However, the root cause of the whole situation is that big time collectors want pretty coins. I would venture to say that most of the high end coins have been doctored in some way, some very subtle some obvious.
Tychojoe << …. many [examples] cited in the complaint ... leave a defendant wide open to claim it wasn't known that the submitted coin was doctored. Would a pattern of doctored coins submitted by a defendant, or in an identifiable, structured collusion with other defendants, be enough to prove guilt?
Yes, it is fair to hypothesize that many in the coin business are aware of certain dealers who submit large numbers of doctored coins over a period of many years, including some submitters who have a high degree of expertise themselves. Moreover, we may guess that there are small groups who work together in efforts to 'get' doctored coins in PCGS or NGC holders with high numerical grades. If necessary, the PCGS may call expert witnesses who, I guess, will testify regarding the intentions and knowledge of defendants who have allegedly submitted doctored coins.
Tychojoe continues <<My guess is that PCGS has other more damning evidence that goes beyond the mere implication of guilt, and that it will be presented later, in court, if a settlement is not reached.>>
I agree that there is a good chance that the PCGS has much additional evidence, some of which directly relates to the ' pattern' and 'collusion' issues that you raised above. Like you, I am guessing.
dyolfbp <<I wholeheartly support PCGS on this. It is long overdue. However, the root cause of the whole situation is that big time collectors want pretty coins. I would venture to say that most of the high end coins have been doctored in some way, some very subtle some obvious. >>
I have said, in many articles, that 'coin doctoring' is a terrible problem that is under-reported. Other than Laura Sperber, no one has written more about this topic than I have. Even so, your statement above is false. I have carefully examined a substantial percentage of the most valuable U.S. Coins. Fortunately, “most” have NOT been doctored. Further, no matter how you fairly define 'high end coins,' a majority have NOT been doctored. In every major auction, there are coins with serious, undisclosed problems, but, in many major auctions, these amount to only a small percentage of the choice and rare coins offered.
<< <i>It is very interesting that PCGS is bringing a suit against the Coin Docs. I hope this brings about a good change in the industry.
Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >>
I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach???
dyolfbp <<I wholeheartly support PCGS on this. It is long overdue. However, the root cause of the whole situation is that big time collectors want pretty coins. I would venture to say that most of the high end coins have been doctored in some way, some very subtle some obvious. >>
RealOne <<The above statement is equivalent of Mexico this week telling Obama not to deploy troops on the border/not to take action because the real problem is the demand in the U.S. for drugs and not the drug cartels selling it.>>
Realone, before I impolitely repeat my response to Dyolfbp's misguided point, I wish to take issue with your response to it, which upset me. Buying attractive, naturally toned coins is NOT in any way analogous to buying heroin or even cocaine. Coin collecting is a safe, therapeutic, sophisticated, relaxing, sociable and healthy cultural pursuit. As I pointed out in my three part series on collecting naturally toned coins, which are linked below, in the past and present, sophisticated collectors tend towards coins with natural toning, and relatively original surfaces. It is both logical and traditional to do so. The selling of high quality, rare coins are, in no way whatsoever, parallels the selling of high quality illicit, very dangerous drugs. You are deflecting attention from the point that ethical dealers and serious collectors, along with the PCGS, should band together to stop coin doctors from severely damaging the coin collecting community.
Dyolfbp, I have said, in many articles, that 'coin doctoring' is a terrible problem that is under-reported. Other than Laura Sperber, no one has written more about this topic than I have. Even so, your statement above is false. I have carefully examined a substantial percentage of the most valuable U.S. Coins. Fortunately, “most” have NOT been doctored. Further, no matter how you fairly define 'high end coins,' a majority have NOT been doctored. In every major auction, there are coins with serious, undisclosed problems, but, in many major auctions, these amount to only a small percentage of the choice and rare coins offered.
<< <i>Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >> >>
<< <i> I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach??? >>
The one I sometimes stop at is the one in Long Beach. I hope it's not them.
I had an incident last week with PCGS that now makes sense in context. I sent a repaired Gobrecht Dollar to PCGS with the intention of getting it put into a Genuine holder. PCGS refused to grade it and cancelled my whole submission. So, I am not understanding the implications of this policy as it pertains to their Genuine holders. I never for a second expected the coin would be graded and I wasnt trying to defraud anyone. But, I can tell by the treatement I got, that was how it was perceived. It would help I think if PCGS added a level of service called "Authentication Only" so that you can make your intentions known when submitting a coin that you are not trying to pass it off as problem free.
2) So the tooled and metal moving guys are first up. I don't collect gold, merc's (torch) nor SLQ (full head) so I'm somewhat taken aback by this . I wonder if the color guys are on deck?
3) This actually could be very tough short term for the coin market. Uncertainty normally breeds caution and a wait and see attitude ensues which fosters lower prices. Long term this could be great.
4) I think CLCT stock therefore could be in for a tough short term ride. It's a low volume ultra small capitalized stock so maybe it could be supported by interested parties for awhile.
This really is the Big One.......Good luck PCGS. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I had an incident last week with PCGS that now makes sense in context. I sent a repaired Gobrecht Dollar to PCGS with the intention of getting it put into a Genuine holder. PCGS refused to grade it and cancelled my whole submission. So, I am not understanding the implications of this policy as it pertains to their Genuine holders. I never for a second expected the coin would be graded and I wasnt trying to defraud anyone. But, I can tell by the treatement I got, that was how it was perceived. It would help I think if PCGS added a level of service called "Authentication Only" so that you can make your intentions known when submitting a coin that you are not trying to pass it off as problem free. >>
If it's repaired I don't think it would still be genuine or authentic - would it?
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Umm if thats the case then there are a lot of ungenuine coins in PCGS slabs out there. This debate has been hashed out in another thread and I am not going to hijack this one. My Gobrecht dollar is a genuine gobrecht dollar and 99% of the world will agree.
The issue is I am raising is the intent of the submitter. If they are just going to assume that a person is submitting it hoping to fool a grader into thinking it is a problem free coin, then there should be a way for a person to declare otherwise.
<< <i>Umm if thats the case then there are a lot of ungenuine coins in PCGS slabs out there. This debate has been hashed out in another thread and I am not going to hijack this one. My Gobrecht dollar is a genuine gobrecht dollar and 99% of the world will agree.
The issue is I am raising is the intent of the submitter. If they are just going to assume that a person is submitting it hoping to fool a grader into thinking it is a problem free coin, then there should be a way for a person to declare otherwise. >>
I guess I'm not understanding and I'm not trying to be facetious - if I knowingly repair a coin, however it's done, chisel, hammer, laser, chemicals, the coin is still genuine and authentic? I understand they authenticate coins that have been damaged by accident over time and the color has been changed but I don't remember them indicating they will authenticate coins that are repaired or modified to enhance the features of the coin. Maybe they would authenticate such a coin and I don't know what I'm saying.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Both ANACS and NGC will give a details grade and a "repaired" designation on a slab for coins such as that. PCGS has no stated policy stating that they will not slab a repaired coin as genuine. So, if that is their policy then it should be enunciated somewhere. Since they routinely slab repaired coins though I do not think that is the case. Again, that is irrelevelnt to this thread and my point about them trying to discern a submitters intentions when submitting a coin.
<< <i>Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >> >>
<< <i> I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach??? >>
The one I sometimes stop at is the one in Long Beach. I hope it's not them. >>
An earlier post stated a doctored coin submitted through Liberty Coins, I don't think it would be the same as Liberty Coin Galleries of Long Beach. Well, I hope not anyway
<< <i> It would also be interesting "proving" that those who submitted the coins were the actual "doctors". To me it appears that there is lot's of latitude regarding "who did what to what" other than submitting a coin for grading. >>
I believe that it would be a violation of an authorized dealer's membership agreement to knowingly submit a coin that someone else had doctored. So, it's possible that a submitter could face problems with a grading company even if he was not the actual coin doctor.
Edited to add:
<< <i>www.coinlink.com has a copy on line
I also hope PCGS can get some criminal counts on those guys.
At this point, in a court of law, the named defendants are presumed innocent of any wrong doing. >>
This is a civil suit for damages, so no one is going to be found "guilty" of anything.
<< <i>I had an incident last week with PCGS that now makes sense in context. I sent a repaired Gobrecht Dollar to PCGS with the intention of getting it put into a Genuine holder. PCGS refused to grade it and cancelled my whole submission. So, I am not understanding the implications of this policy as it pertains to their Genuine holders. I never for a second expected the coin would be graded and I wasnt trying to defraud anyone. But, I can tell by the treatement I got, that was how it was perceived. It would help I think if PCGS added a level of service called "Authentication Only" so that you can make your intentions known when submitting a coin that you are not trying to pass it off as problem free. >>
That coin should have been slabbed in a genuine holder IMO. The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields which is less of of a repair than plugging a holed coin and re-engraving the details in the plug which is usually slabbed in a gennie holder. The work was so well done, maybe they thought you were trying to trick them into getting them to grade it and slab it in a regular holder.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed. >>
They werent. It was one dentil and the graffitied/scratched surfaces were smoothed. None of the design or date was touched.
Late in commenting but I think I have said in prior posts, the key to all of this is fraud. If you send in a coin that was doctored and you don't know about it...it just gets bagged. You send in two dozen coins that were traceable to you and doctored while you are the offical owner and you state (through the PCGS agreement) that you don't do that, that's fraud. If the amounts are high enough, these should be referred for criminal prosecution and the offenders should do time. IMHO.
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed. >>
They werent. It was one dentil and the graffitied/scratched surfaces were smoothed. None of the design or date was touched. >>
That's what I thought. The graffiti was all in the field and didn't impact any of the design elements. Hardly "a complete re-do". Perhaps CCU was thinking of that hobo nickle.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it.
I too am very glad to see PCGS take the bull by the horns and I agree it is very over do. Sadly, it will be an uphill and costly battle as many lawsuits are, but as I stated in another thread, PCGS's breach of contract claims will be their strongest, easiest to prove, and where they will most likely prevail. But in any event, it will take a few years for PCGS to get there, particularly since the Central District Court is one of the busiest federal courts in the country - and I'm sure the defendants, after pooling their vast assets, will give them a heck of a costly and drawn-out fight.
I also completely believe that PCGS would never have filed this lawsuit had they and their lawyers not felt like they had enough facts and evidence to back up all their claims. However, in te meantime, I think the lawsuit will likely deter further coin doctoring (however that is defined), which in and of itself is a BIG win for PCGS - and for the coin world.
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
PCGS may not be able to authenticate such a flattened coin so it wouldn't be slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Being new here, I did not know any of the people listed in the suit. So I googled them and found this on his web site:
Integrity Mr. DiGenova maintains a long-standing reputation of honesty and integrity in his dealings. Never has there been a complaint launched against him or his company, nor has he (or Tangible Investments) ever been the subject of any litigation whatsoever. Additionally, he has been a founder or served on the board of virtually every national organization involved with the development of ethical standards and practices within the rare coin industry.
Some one seems to have some serious ego issues if you read his about me stuff. I'd say the PCGS pin burst that bubble but good.
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti?
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti? >>
Yep. And are you suggesting that there is some inconsistency in the 'Genuine' vs. zilch designations? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!!
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti? >>
Yep. And are you suggesting that there is some inconsistency in the 'Genuine' vs. zilch designations? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!! >>
Well, PCGS will just need to tack this small error in judgment to their short list of "save the numismatic world" efforts, now won't they?"
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My guess is this will make for one heck of an interesting week. There is the Long Beach Show. I can imagine some lonely tables and people being razzled...
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support!
<< <i>My guess is this will make for one heck of an interesting week. There is the Long Beach Show. I can imagine some lonely tables and people being razzled...
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support! >>
We should have a cap made with a sniffers logo,and wear it at the Long Beach Show.
<< <i>My guess is this will make for one heck of an interesting week. There is the Long Beach Show. I can imagine some lonely tables and people being razzled...
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support! >>
We should have a cap made with a sniffers logo,and wear it at the Long Beach Show. >>
The show should have some interesting conversations....looking forward to it!!!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
CC for Ca Ca?
<< <i>Now is the time for NGC, ANA, ANS, and PNG to step up and join PCGS financially and in spirit in pursuing this lawsuit to the max.
This can not happen. Unless they are also injured by the same people, there is no way the groups listed above can join the PCGS complaint. What they should have done by now was issue statements of support. If they need to confer with their lawyers, what is the delay? Lawyers work on Saturdays.
The ANS is so full of old stogies they probably have no clue as to whats going on. >>
They should have supported this as it is a worth cause.
If these guys are found guilty they could face individual suits from coins they doctored and submitted to pcgs. Someone purchased these coins and overpaid and we the victims of fraud. I would not want to be in their shoes.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
I think most people dislike people in a profession that are crooks - and some lawyers fit in that category
Yes, it is fair to hypothesize that many in the coin business are aware of certain dealers who submit large numbers of doctored coins over a period of many years, including some submitters who have a high degree of expertise themselves. Moreover, we may guess that there are small groups who work together in efforts to 'get' doctored coins in PCGS or NGC holders with high numerical grades. If necessary, the PCGS may call expert witnesses who, I guess, will testify regarding the intentions and knowledge of defendants who have allegedly submitted doctored coins.
Tychojoe continues <<My guess is that PCGS has other more damning evidence that goes beyond the mere implication of guilt, and that it will be presented later, in court, if a settlement is not reached.>>
I agree that there is a good chance that the PCGS has much additional evidence, some of which directly relates to the ' pattern' and 'collusion' issues that you raised above. Like you, I am guessing.
dyolfbp <<I wholeheartly support PCGS on this. It is long overdue. However, the root cause of the whole situation is that big time collectors want pretty coins. I would venture to say that most of the high end coins have been doctored in some way, some very subtle some obvious. >>
I have said, in many articles, that 'coin doctoring' is a terrible problem that is under-reported. Other than Laura Sperber, no one has written more about this topic than I have. Even so, your statement above is false. I have carefully examined a substantial percentage of the most valuable U.S. Coins. Fortunately, “most” have NOT been doctored. Further, no matter how you fairly define 'high end coins,' a majority have NOT been doctored. In every major auction, there are coins with serious, undisclosed problems, but, in many major auctions, these amount to only a small percentage of the choice and rare coins offered.
Complaint filed by CU-PCGS
Some discussion of the topic of coin doctoring in this weekly column
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
PCGS Message Board Thread about Collecting Naturally Toned Coins Articles
<< <i>It is very interesting that PCGS is bringing a suit against the Coin Docs. I hope this brings about a good change in the industry.
Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >>
I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach???
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
RealOne <<The above statement is equivalent of Mexico this week telling Obama not to deploy troops on the border/not to take action because the real problem is the demand in the U.S. for drugs and not the drug cartels selling it.>>
Realone, before I impolitely repeat my response to Dyolfbp's misguided point, I wish to take issue with your response to it, which upset me. Buying attractive, naturally toned coins is NOT in any way analogous to buying heroin or even cocaine. Coin collecting is a safe, therapeutic, sophisticated, relaxing, sociable and healthy cultural pursuit. As I pointed out in my three part series on collecting naturally toned coins, which are linked below, in the past and present, sophisticated collectors tend towards coins with natural toning, and relatively original surfaces. It is both logical and traditional to do so. The selling of high quality, rare coins are, in no way whatsoever, parallels the selling of high quality illicit, very dangerous drugs. You are deflecting attention from the point that ethical dealers and serious collectors, along with the PCGS, should band together to stop coin doctors from severely damaging the coin collecting community.
Dyolfbp, I have said, in many articles, that 'coin doctoring' is a terrible problem that is under-reported. Other than Laura Sperber, no one has written more about this topic than I have. Even so, your statement above is false. I have carefully examined a substantial percentage of the most valuable U.S. Coins. Fortunately, “most” have NOT been doctored. Further, no matter how you fairly define 'high end coins,' a majority have NOT been doctored. In every major auction, there are coins with serious, undisclosed problems, but, in many major auctions, these amount to only a small percentage of the choice and rare coins offered.
Some discussion of the topic of coin doctoring in this weekly column
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
PCGS Message Board Thread about Collecting Naturally Toned Coins Articles
<< <i>Thumbs up PCGS!
bob
<< <i>Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >> >>
<< <i> I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach??? >>
The one I sometimes stop at is the one in Long Beach. I hope it's not them.
Best,
Magikbilly aka Eric
Yes, indeed.
The ones I have seen before usually are heading in the other direction!
Best,
Eric
My Early Large Cents
1) I applaude PCGS
2) So the tooled and metal moving guys are first up. I don't collect gold, merc's (torch) nor SLQ (full head) so I'm somewhat taken aback by this . I wonder if the color guys are on deck?
3) This actually could be very tough short term for the coin market. Uncertainty normally breeds caution and a wait and see attitude ensues which fosters lower prices. Long term this could be great.
4) I think CLCT stock therefore could be in for a tough short term ride. It's a low volume ultra small capitalized stock so maybe it could be supported by interested parties for awhile.
This really is the Big One.......Good luck PCGS. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Great news for all of us who care about coins more than money !
Larry >>
...more about coins than money!
I didn't read through the whole thread,
...entire thread,
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I had an incident last week with PCGS that now makes sense in context. I sent a repaired Gobrecht Dollar to PCGS with the intention of getting it put into a Genuine holder. PCGS refused to grade it and cancelled my whole submission. So, I am not understanding the implications of this policy as it pertains to their Genuine holders. I never for a second expected the coin would be graded and I wasnt trying to defraud anyone. But, I can tell by the treatement I got, that was how it was perceived. It would help I think if PCGS added a level of service called "Authentication Only" so that you can make your intentions known when submitting a coin that you are not trying to pass it off as problem free. >>
If it's repaired I don't think it would still be genuine or authentic - would it?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
The issue is I am raising is the intent of the submitter. If they are just going to assume that a person is submitting it hoping to fool a grader into thinking it is a problem free coin, then there should be a way for a person to declare otherwise.
My Early Large Cents
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Umm if thats the case then there are a lot of ungenuine coins in PCGS slabs out there. This debate has been hashed out in another thread and I am not going to hijack this one. My Gobrecht dollar is a genuine gobrecht dollar and 99% of the world will agree.
The issue is I am raising is the intent of the submitter. If they are just going to assume that a person is submitting it hoping to fool a grader into thinking it is a problem free coin, then there should be a way for a person to declare otherwise. >>
I guess I'm not understanding and I'm not trying to be facetious - if I knowingly repair a coin, however it's done, chisel, hammer, laser, chemicals, the coin is still genuine and authentic? I understand they authenticate coins that have been damaged by accident over time and the color has been changed but I don't remember them indicating they will authenticate coins that are repaired or modified to enhance the features of the coin. Maybe they would authenticate such a coin and I don't know what I'm saying.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>
<< <i>Does anyone know which "Liberty Coin" they are talking about in one of the doctored coin examples? I sometimes stop in a coin shop called Liberty Coins, hopefully it's not them. There are probably dozens of coin companies called Liberty Coin though. >> >>
<< <i> I wonder if it's the same liberty coin that BNB worked at for a little while in long beach??? >>
The one I sometimes stop at is the one in Long Beach. I hope it's not them. >>
An earlier post stated a doctored coin submitted through Liberty Coins, I don't think it would be the same as Liberty Coin Galleries of Long Beach. Well, I hope not anyway
EAC 6024
<< <i>
It would also be interesting "proving" that those who submitted the coins were the actual "doctors".
To me it appears that there is lot's of latitude regarding "who did what to what" other than submitting a coin for grading. >>
I believe that it would be a violation of an authorized dealer's membership agreement to knowingly submit a coin that someone else had doctored. So, it's possible that a submitter could face problems with a grading company even if he was not the actual coin doctor.
Edited to add:
<< <i>www.coinlink.com has a copy on line
I also hope PCGS can get some criminal counts on those guys.
At this point, in a court of law, the named defendants are presumed innocent of any wrong doing. >>
This is a civil suit for damages, so no one is going to be found "guilty" of anything.
<< <i>I had an incident last week with PCGS that now makes sense in context. I sent a repaired Gobrecht Dollar to PCGS with the intention of getting it put into a Genuine holder. PCGS refused to grade it and cancelled my whole submission. So, I am not understanding the implications of this policy as it pertains to their Genuine holders. I never for a second expected the coin would be graded and I wasnt trying to defraud anyone. But, I can tell by the treatement I got, that was how it was perceived. It would help I think if PCGS added a level of service called "Authentication Only" so that you can make your intentions known when submitting a coin that you are not trying to pass it off as problem free. >>
That coin should have been slabbed in a genuine holder IMO. The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields which is less of of a repair than plugging a holed coin and re-engraving the details in the plug which is usually slabbed in a gennie holder. The work was so well done, maybe they thought you were trying to trick them into getting them to grade it and slab it in a regular holder.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud!
<< <i>
<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed. >>
They werent. It was one dentil and the graffitied/scratched surfaces were smoothed. None of the design or date was touched.
My Early Large Cents
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
Are you saying the major design elements (seated liberty and eagle) were re-engraved? If that's the case, I stand corrected and it shouldn't have been slabbed. >>
They werent. It was one dentil and the graffitied/scratched surfaces were smoothed. None of the design or date was touched. >>
That's what I thought. The graffiti was all in the field and didn't impact any of the design elements. Hardly "a complete re-do". Perhaps CCU was thinking of that hobo nickle.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The examples cited in this case are what I think of as counterfeiting the grade. It should be thought of as nothing less than counterfeiting.
Analysts's comments are right on as is Laura's blog on her web site.
Great thread, by the way.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it.
I also completely believe that PCGS would never have filed this lawsuit had they and their lawyers not felt like they had enough facts and evidence to back up all their claims. However, in te meantime, I think the lawsuit will likely deter further coin doctoring (however that is defined), which in and of itself is a BIG win for PCGS - and for the coin world.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
PCGS may not be able to authenticate such a flattened coin so it wouldn't be slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Integrity
Mr. DiGenova maintains a long-standing reputation of honesty and integrity in his dealings. Never has there been a complaint launched against him or his company, nor has he (or Tangible Investments) ever been the subject of any litigation whatsoever. Additionally, he has been a founder or served on the board of virtually every national organization involved with the development of ethical standards and practices within the rare coin industry.
Some one seems to have some serious ego issues if you read his about me stuff. I'd say the PCGS pin burst that bubble but good.
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti?
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti? >>
Yep. And are you suggesting that there is some inconsistency in the 'Genuine' vs. zilch designations?
I'm shocked, SHOCKED!!
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
maybe in the high end
call me cynical......
Regarding catching the coin doctors, I love it! I can only hope that, once caught, the courts take meaningful action.
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<< <i>The only repair was re-engraving a couple of deticles and smoothing some graffiti in the fields >>
The "only" repair?!?!!! It was a complete re-do for cryin' out loud! >>
It's still a "genuine" coin though and should just be put in a genuine holder. If I took a 1913 nickel and put it on the railroad track, it would still be a genuine 1913 nickel after the train flattened it. >>
Isn't there a certain 1870-S dollar in a genuine slab that has had the fields smoothed to remove graffiti? >>
Yep. And are you suggesting that there is some inconsistency in the 'Genuine' vs. zilch designations?
I'm shocked, SHOCKED!! >>
Well, PCGS will just need to tack this small error in judgment to their short list of "save the numismatic world" efforts, now won't they?"
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i> If the amounts are high enough, these should be referred for criminal prosecution and the offenders should do time. IMHO. >>
BOOK 'EM DANNO !
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support!
<< <i>My guess is this will make for one heck of an interesting week. There is the Long Beach Show. I can imagine some lonely tables and people being razzled...
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support! >>
We should have a cap made with a sniffers logo,and wear it at the Long Beach Show.
<< <i>
<< <i>My guess is this will make for one heck of an interesting week. There is the Long Beach Show. I can imagine some lonely tables and people being razzled...
It will be fun to hear if its business as usual for these guys.
I think everyone who attends needs to tell Hall and Willis. Offer them your support! >>
We should have a cap made with a sniffers logo,and wear it at the Long Beach Show.
The show should have some interesting conversations....looking forward to it!!!
peacockcoins
<< <i>300! >>
Alert the American Bowling Congress!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>300! >>
Alert the American Bowling Congress!!!!
Smoe of those ten pins are still wobbling.