Almost got scammed on Paypal
akuracy503
Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭
Unknown buyer "tim" makes a deal with me, sends paypal gift funds, gift funds arrive under "bob" paypal account which is not verified nor has a shipping address registered (Seller is not eligible for paypal protection)
Tim says he accidently paid through a business partners account, to go ahead and ship the items to 123 address.
I avoid all communication from Tim as soon as the payment from Bob arrived.
I email Bob according to his email address listed in the paypal transaction, basically asking what the heck, that I will not deal with this potential scam and that resolution needs to go through paypal.
Bob responds saying that he is initiating dispute through paypal for refund but asked me to ship the boxes to Tim's address to close case.
What can I do to have Paypal look into the history of this fellows account, If he is trying to scam I want this scumbag off the streets.
So I receive an open case from Paypal giving me 3 options, to provide proof either refund if I havent already, that I already shipped the item, or that I already refunded.
I am going to raise a stink before this claim is over, I need paypal to look into this further.
Tim says he accidently paid through a business partners account, to go ahead and ship the items to 123 address.
I avoid all communication from Tim as soon as the payment from Bob arrived.
I email Bob according to his email address listed in the paypal transaction, basically asking what the heck, that I will not deal with this potential scam and that resolution needs to go through paypal.
Bob responds saying that he is initiating dispute through paypal for refund but asked me to ship the boxes to Tim's address to close case.
What can I do to have Paypal look into the history of this fellows account, If he is trying to scam I want this scumbag off the streets.
So I receive an open case from Paypal giving me 3 options, to provide proof either refund if I havent already, that I already shipped the item, or that I already refunded.
I am going to raise a stink before this claim is over, I need paypal to look into this further.
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0
Comments
<< <i>If you do anything at all before storm888 sees this thread you are a fool. >>
<< <i>If you do anything at all before storm888 sees this thread you are a fool. >>
Indeed, I am waiting for the wise one to direct.
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Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
As a seller I was given only 3 options in the open case, refund the buyer, show proof that I shipped item or proof that I already refunded.
Lesson learned - Don't accept gift payments from anyone you don't personally know.
- It's worth the extra few dollars to make it a standard transaction of goods payment.
- Always make sure there is a verified address associated with the payee (Eligible for seller protection)
- Whenever a second party joins the payment or communication channel it's bad news.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Doing pretend "gifts" with strangers is goofey.
Trying to save a little money dealing with a guy who
"cons" you into thinking that you are both going to
benefit by cheating PayPal/EBAY is also goofey.
........
The ONLY viable PayPal claim on a "gift" is "unauthorized use."
Your criminal has realized he cannot get you to perform, so
he just wants his money back.
Your ONLY safe out is to issue the criminal an immediate refund
and fugedaboutit.
IF you complain about the issue to PayPal, you will be setting
yourself up to lose your PP account, or, at the least, they will
see that you tried to burn them out of their fees.
Issue the refund.
Have no further contact with PP on the issue.
Have no further contact with the "buyer."
If you know the "buyer's" ID, put it on your BBL.
..............
I am the actual buyer that goofed and paid for this transaction with my bosses PayPal account. I list lots of things for him on a daily basis that are non-sports card related. As soon as I realized that I paid from the wrong account, I contacted akuracy503 and let him know. I also transferred the funds from my account to my bosses so that he was not out any money. Akuracy503 never took the item off of eBay and sold them to someone else. That isn't the problem. He is trying to scam me by keeping the money and not sending the product or the refund. Then he tries to contact my boss and act like he doesn't know who I am.
I would just like to know how he feels that he is getting scammed? You have my money that you just need to refund to my bosses account! I see that he was directed to refund the money in this post, but has yet to do so....I will never pay by gift again. I just want my money refunded to my bosses account and I will not report akuracy503 to eBay for soliciting a transaction outside of eBay. Trust me....you will lose your account!
I think I will copy and paste all the emails between him and myself. Keep in mind that he didn't have a best offer, so I emailed him through eBay and asked if he would take $925 for the 7 boxes of 2010 Bowman Baseball. I would have been more than happy to pay through eBay, but thought i would help him out.....BIG MISTAKE!! I will block out his phone # and my address and you need to read from the bottom up. Here it is:
Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case Martin to you - 2 days agoMore Details From: Hide Add to: To Do, Calendar To: Cc:Bcc
Dan, I need to refund the $400 to the account it came from.
This transaction will not go through.
Martin
On May 14, 2010, at 4:04 PM,
I would like to buy the other 4 if possible. How much more to buy the rest?
Thanks,
Dan
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:58:19 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case
Thanks Dan, will ship out Saturday, I'll follow up with the tracking number.
On May 14, 2010, at 2:56 PM,
Money sent....please provide tracking # when shipped and thanks again.
I did forget to give you my address. It is as follows:
Dan
***********
***********
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:46:43 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case
Paypal ID:
Please be sure to include your shipping address and pay as gift without additional fees.
Thanks, Martin
On May 14, 2010, at 2:36 PM,
I will do the 3 boxes. Give me your PayPal address and I will send the funds as a gift in the next half hour.
Thanks again,
Dan Wiseman
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:32:02 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case
I'd prefer to sell more through mail transaction, I can do 3 boxes for $390 plus $10 shipping, paypal gift no fees incurred by me.
Let me know, Martin
On May 14, 2010, at 1:59 PM,
How about if I purchase just 2 for $260 shipped?
Dan
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:56:30 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case
We are looking at about $27 with insurance usps priority, I still need to charge flat $30, I can refund if it comes out being less.
Let me know soon.
Thanks , Martin
On May 14, 2010, at 1:49 PM,
I am not able to call at this minute, but what would shipping and insurance be to *****?
Thanks,
Dan
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:29:04 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: dwise72 has sent a question about item #290435281789, ending on May-16-10 22:18:03 PDT - 2010 Bowman Jumbo Baseball Lot of 7 box from same case
The reason I had to list it at 1020 is due to all the eBay fees and paypal fees, I can do $925 if you sent the payment as a paypal gift option so I don't incur any fees, I'd still need to charge for the shipping and insurance. Feel free to give me a call if you want to discuss and proceed, Martin ***-***-****
I now understand this post a bit more, but the stuff I wrote below still concerns me about receive "Gifts" as payment from unknown people.
Im not positive if this is fact, but the few "gift" payments I got as payment had no address listed for the sender (I guess because why would a sender of a "gift" need to get something back in the mail).
I had to email them back and ask for their shipping address.
IMO This leaves room for a scammer to have the cards sent somewhere other than his home (mailbox stores or newly opened po box, etc.), and he may have used a stolen credit card or check to pay with and a matching fake name to cover tracks.
I would only accept the Gift from someone you know, but like others say, its not the right way to pay for a card, you may save a couple $$, but it also leave it far easier for a scammer to work.
I can see a guy with a stolen credit card, hit the B/S/T areas of Net54 and the PSA board and offer "Gift" payments to many people at once, get the cards at a newly opened PO Box store, and flee before the scams surface.
Immediately after receiving a payment from another name other than Dan Wiseman I stopped responding to Dan Wiseman.
Coincidently my ebay auction ended at the same time Dan Wiseman decided to send me a potentially scamming payment from another account.
Paypal is currently holding the funds and looking into the case, I've personally called them to ask for research regarding both Dan and the payee's paypal account for any history of dispute claims.
I gave you my phone number to talk it out Dan, you opted to email me from your blackberry every 2 minutes to arrange a deal.
Then I get a payment from another guy and see that he is not verified nor has an associated address, the transaction specifically stated that I was not eligible for Seller Protection.
I emailed the payee the other day to see if he was aware of what is going on.
I am letting paypal take care of this issue.
Done deal, I don't know you nor can you convince me that you are a good honest guy.
Take care.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
<< <i>The thing I don't get is why the OP, the second he knew he wasn't going to ship the boxes, didn't issue an immediate refund? Why are you holding someone's money with no intent to ship? It doesn't matter which account the funds came from, there should be an immediate refund which would rectify the entire situation immediately. >>
If you received bogus money from an unknown sender would you take action or let Paypal take the action for you.
I am not going to take responsibility for anyone's mistake by risking ANYTHING.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
Being that Paypal is the 3rd party delegate here is the safest way to rectify the situation.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
No personal information p[osted about others...full names, paypal accounts, email's etc...
<< <i>
<< <i>The thing I don't get is why the OP, the second he knew he wasn't going to ship the boxes, didn't issue an immediate refund? Why are you holding someone's money with no intent to ship? It doesn't matter which account the funds came from, there should be an immediate refund which would rectify the entire situation immediately. >>
If you received bogus money from an unknown sender would you take action or let Paypal take the action for you.
I am not going to take responsibility for anyone's mistake by risking ANYTHING. >>
You are not risking ANYTHING!!!!! The money is not yours.....REFUND it! eBay will be receiving a call tomorrow if not refunded by 12:00 PDT tonight!!!
<< <i>
You are not risking ANYTHING!!!!! The money is not yours.....REFUND it! eBay will be receiving a call tomorrow if not refunded by 12:00 PDT tonight!!! >>
He already stated he is letting Paypal handle it. If there is no shenanigans on your side of things then you have nothing to worry about, Paypal will refund you. On the other hand, if you have done this in the past....
He spoketh in the 9th post of this thread:
"Issue the refund" were his direct words.
Do not take his judgments lightly--just do what he says. Lest ye be a heretic!
Why are you asking PP to investigate, knowing that your account could be suspended for accepting gift payments for sold items?
Paypal is investigating and has held the funds, there is nothing I can do in the meanwhile.
I originally posted this topic for opinions and education for the CU board, I did not intend it to become an open dispute forum.
I'm a private person and respect privacy, public disputes is not where I stand.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
<< <i>I'm a private person and respect privacy, public disputes is not where I stand. >>
Then this thread might have backfired as your phone number was posted earlier and then deleted but no telling who got that and there is always the possibility that it was cached by Google before it was deleted.
Jeff
Miscut Museum
My Mess
<< <i>I'm not going to fuel this fire for the entertainment of soap drama. Paypal is investigating and has held the funds, there is nothing I can do in the meanwhile.
I originally posted this topic for opinions and education for the CU board, And yet you chose not to follow the advice of the single ebay expert here
I did not intend it to become an open dispute forum.Sure. That's why you air all your problems on a public discussion board
I'm a private person and respect privacy, public disputes is not where I stand. >>
No, if you sought privacy, you would've handled this dispute like the rest of us would've - in private.
Long story short, your original intent was right but the follow through was below par.
Typical for the common man to turn the blind eye eh..
What part of locked funds and paypal investigating do you fellas not understand?
I'm done with this thread.
Thanks.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
The instant circumstance should serve as a cautionary tale
to guide sellers away from being tempted to use EBAY as an
advertisng venue with the intention of not allowing EBAY and
PayPal to share in the spoils.
IF an immediate refund had been made when the dispute/claim
was filed, the controversy would have likely been finished.
Now, I have no clue how to unwind it.
If the seller makes the refund now, there is a high-probability
that the buyer could still rat-out the seller for the TOS violation;
fee circumvention is a serious matter. Regardless of who first
initiates the "plan," the seller is always treated most harshly.
Recognizing the risk, I would likely still make the refund without
having PP direct me to do so.
.......
That the subject payment may have been made by mistake
or with fraudulent intent, is irrelevant to the seller's interests.
In ALL EBAY/PayPal credit/debit-card transactions, PayPal is the
"merchant of record." If there is fraud against a third-party in a
transaction, PayPal really does not want/need sellers policing the
matter; especially when the seller comes forth with apparently
unclean hands.
................
<< <i>Hmm I actually care enough to spend the time to work with Paypal to investigate a possible scammer and I am not doing the noble thing?
Typical for the common man to turn the blind eye eh..
What part of locked funds and paypal investigating do you fellas not understand?
I'm done with this thread.
Thanks. >>
You would have refunded to the original account, not a different one Also, you were circumventing fees from eBay and PP.
Don't act completely innocent and did nothing wrong, even if you think all of your actions were "noble".
<< <i>You called?
Phew. Thank you, Nick!
The education I am getting from this experience is that even though a gift payment does not qualify for "seller protection" the payee can still submit a claim disputing the gift as a goods transaction, they can also do a chargeback via their banking/creditor institution.
So lesson learned, recieving a gift payment is no safer than paying via gift.
If I had shipped the goods they could have still disputed the transaction.
Lesson learned for anyone considering a "gift" payment.
I'm not trying to cause trouble I just want paypal to perform their due diligence because this DID feel like a scam, if paypal finds a history of chargebacks and disputes with this seller then it's one for the win column.
I know I keep getting flack for bringing these "controversial" issues up on this board but it's good education for all.
One question for Dan - Prior to this fiasco did your boss KNOW you were using this paypal account to purchase baseball cards?
I wonder how that conversation went down.
Take care, you'll be hearing from Paypal soon.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
"...Did you think you could have a payment sent as a gift and STILL get seller protection?? ..."
///////////////////////////////////////
Obviously, there can be no buyer/seller protection
in such a transaction.
A "buyer" can file a claim alleging "unauthorized use"
of the PP account, but that is usually a tough sell.
<< <i>"...Did you think you could have a payment sent as a gift and STILL get seller protection?? ..."
///////////////////////////////////////
Obviously, there can be no buyer/seller protection
in such a transaction.
A "buyer" can file a claim alleging "unauthorized use"
of the PP account, but that is usually a tough sell. >>
It was "unauthorized use" if one guy was using his bosses account
And maybe this is where the scam comes into play. Person sends payment from "bosses" acount, then gets the product. Then the "boss" disputes the charge and gets the money back. The op is out the product and the money.
let the investigation take its course...
keep us posted...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
"...even though a gift payment does not qualify for "seller protection" the payee can still submit a claim disputing the gift as a goods transaction, they can also do a chargeback via their banking/creditor institution...."
//////////////////////////
The payor filing, and him getting a favorable decision,
are miles apart.
The console will accept lots of input that the live monkeys
will reject.
A payor could state that he checked the wrong box when making
the payment, and, thus, filed his claim correctly as a merch deal.
If the seller was not willing to admit to the fee-circumvention,
such a scam might "work," but there is no way for a credit-card
thief to profit; refunds are credited ONLY to the funding source.
And, off-EBAY transaction claims are only decided on INR; there
are no SNAD claims decided EXCEPT in the UK. (Don't accept PP
on UK sales; the crooks win EVERY claim.)
I have ZERO reports of a PP refund ever being issued on a gift
transmittal for reasons other than "unauthorized use."
Credit-card companies scrutinize unauthorized-use claims
VERY carefully. If such a claim is disputed by a sophisticated
seller, the claim will almost always fail. (Most merchant accounts
indemnify the seller against such claims, in any event; provided
the seller followed the required protocol.)
"...It was "unauthorized use" if one guy was using his bosses account..."
//////////////////////////////
Only if the use was not authorized by his boss.
........
The most famous PP-case on the issue involved an employee
usng her employer's account to run-up about $250K+ in EBAY
buys over a 2-year period.
About two-years after her shopping spree, the boss reported
the "theft," and the employee first claimed she was "authorized"
to use the card.
There were allegations that the boss was in the mix and that
the gal was his squeeze. When she broke it off, she claimed,
he disputed the charges.
The FBI made a successful case against the gal.
PayPal debited HUNDREDS of EBAY-sellers' accounts for the
losses. Sellers who could still prove that they had complied
with PP-rules - years after the sales - were finally refunded
the money that was grabbed. (Keep all PP tickets .... forever.)
Many people use family members or partner pp accounts.
Why would you "raise a stink before this claim is over"? How are you entitled to the buyers funds?
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
If I had used a credit card, I could've taken this issue up with them. The funds weren't being frozen in his account until late this afternoon when my boss reported unauthorized usage. I was not trying to scam anyone! If he had shipped the cards, all he had to do was provide a tracking # and PayPal would've covered him. If he would've issued the refund like he said he was going to on Friday, then none of this would be happening.
All I want is some 2010 Bowman Jumbo Boxes and hopefully can still find some at a decent price once the money is refunded.
Thanks to all for listening to this......I didn't think I was being unreasonable. I just flipped out when he sent my boss an email pretending that he didn't know who I was...I felt like I was going to be scammed! Then again, the money is not in my bosses account yet.
The truth will prevail!!
"...If he had shipped the cards, all he had to do was provide a tracking # and PayPal would've covered him...."
PayPal does not offer seller/buyer protection on "gift transmittals."
"...If he would've issued the refund like he said he was going to on Friday, then none of this would be happening...."
VERY likely true.
I had some discussions with the Paypal security department this evening and have asked them to just review your account for history of misuse/chargebacks/disputes etc.
I went ahead and closed the case, your boss should see the refunded amount for the full balance.
I contacted your boss via email because he was the payee, I ignored your messages because you were frantic and it felt fishy.
I asked your boss if he knows Dan W and I was straight forward in my inquiry.
After Mr Boss insisted with multiple emails that I ship the item to your address I ignored and took it up with Paypal.
For all I know I couldve been responsible for multiple things, accepting a potentially fraudulent payment and not shipping items.
I decided to have Paypal look into this.
Lesson learned don't accept gift payments nor send them, when you have multiple people involved it could be red flag.
Paypal will be knocking on your door if they see a questionable history.
Take care.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
I'm not here to rip people off, I love this hobby too much.
I am also not afraid to take action to initiate investigation on fraudulent behavior it's for the good of our community.
CU Ancient Members badge member.
Collection: https://flickr.com/photos/185200668@N06/albums
My boss told you that since you no longer had the cards that you should just issue the refund, but you wanted to play detective.
Neither he or myself have ever had any disputes with PayPal besides this one and hopefully never will again!!!
<< <i>And maybe this is where the scam comes into play. Person sends payment from "bosses" acount, then gets the product. Then the "boss" disputes the charge and gets the money back. The op is out the product and the money. >>
completely agree.