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Interested to see what this " + " coin goes for

JJMJJM Posts: 8,089 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
hereBay

edited to remove pic at the owners request which was added to his discription in the auction

I meant no harm is making this post
I thought it generated quite a bit of intrest......in light that it
was the first key date coin with a + that I have seen

good luck with your auction !


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Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The BIN price could be a bargain, this early in the + game. Cheers, RickO
  • garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭
    I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me.
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    "but the coin is certainly worth a significant premium to the $7000 or so for non plus examples recently sold at Heritage."

    Hows that? They might also get a +
    I dont think its fair to compare pre-plus coins to post-plus ones at this point in time imho.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not worthy of a "+" by my way of thinking. There is far too much going on in the prime focal area of the face and neck.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • JJMJJM Posts: 8,089 ✭✭✭✭✭
    my first wag was the face was a bit scuffy for a 64+, owing to my overall curiosity..............
    👍BST's erickso1,cone10,MICHAELDIXON,TennesseeDave,p8nt,jmdm1194,RWW,robkool,Ahrensdad,Timbuk3,Downtown1974,bigjpst,mustanggt,Yorkshireman,idratherbgardening,SurfinxHI,derryb,masscrew,Walkerguy21D,MJ1927,sniocsu,Coll3tor,doubleeagle07,luciobar1980,PerryHall,SNMAM,mbcoin,liefgold,keyman64,maprince230,TorinoCobra71,RB1026,Weiss,LukeMarshall,Wingsrule,Silveryfire, pointfivezero,IKE1964,AL410, Tdec1000, AnkurJ,guitarwes,Type2,Bp777,jfoot113,JWP,mattniss,dantheman984,jclovescoins,Collectorcoins,Weather11am,Namvet69,kansasman,Bruce7789,ADG,Larrob37,Waverly, justindan
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,951 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The image is a scan, so hard to tell from.
    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082 ✭
    I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me.

    Same old problem, only now it's "plus" sized.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,706 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me. >>



    You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor.

    No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me. >>



    Agree. Those bag marks on the face and the scrape across the cheek are distacting.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me. >>



    You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>



    Aren't marks less obvious in a scan and usually more obvious in hand under a bright light?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I dont see how they get 64+ from that. It barely looks like a 64 to me. >>


    Exactly...that scrape under the nose and scar on the face should limit it to a 64 MAX.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1895-S in Mint State grades virtually always look like CCs in terms of marks and scuffs. For the date this is a very nice 64.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shall we simply speculate that the graders have total recall on all of the previously graded '95-S at MS-64, and expect that this was considered in the top 15%-20% of the grade for the date? I'm puzzled.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.american-legacy-coins.com

  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    Based on the images this one looks nicer.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>



    A lot of people don't seem to understand that.



    << <i>Aren't marks less obvious in a scan and usually more obvious in hand under a bright light? >>



    I think attemping to generalize about how all coins look in a scan vs in hand is silly. None of us has ever seen in this particular piece in hand (I don't believe), and no one can say what it actually looks like.
    Coin Rarities Online
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>1895-S in Mint State grades virtually always look like CCs in terms of marks and scuffs. For the date this is a very nice 64. >>



    So if a certain date comes baggy, it should get a pass? Shouldn't all coins within a given series be graded using the same standards?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i><< You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>
    A lot of people don't seem to understand that.
    >>



    There is no denying that this particular 95-S has an awful lot of chatter on the face. The marks on the face didn't just materialize out of thin air when the coin was imaged. Are they less pronounced in hand? I certainly hope so.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • HighReliefHighRelief Posts: 3,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If they are giving out +'s for that MS64 then I am sending in this MS63 PL for Secure +, I will let you know how it turns out.

    imageimage
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So if a certain date comes baggy, it should get a pass? Shouldn't all coins within a given series be graded using the same standards? >>

    Perry: Heck yes! Idealism says all dates should be graded alike, but the reality of what actually happens is... that isn't what happens. CCs get a break. DMPLs get a break. Ultra-rarities like 1804 dollars get a break. Many of the Eliasberg coins got a break. Early S-mints and 1880-Os and 1884-S get punished a little. When it comes to 1895-S Morgans, what I've seen in 15 years of looking at hundreds of Mint State examples is, they seem to catch a little break like CCs do.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HighRelief: Pay the $24 and have 'em put the VAM 4 designation on your coin too.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><< You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>
    A lot of people don't seem to understand that.
    >>



    There is no denying that this particular 95-S has an awful lot of chatter on the face. The marks on the face didn't just materialize out of thin air when the coin was imaged. Are they less pronounced in hand? I certainly hope so. >>



    I don't see how they can be less pronounce in hand considering it was examined under a bright light source. The marks are shiney and they will standout against the frosty background.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have no idea whether or not this is worthy of a plus coin or not. I do know there is NO way to accurately grade coins from a scan or an image. Guess yes. I can't believe coins get thrown under the bus based assumptions and interpretations from scans or images. When one of you guys get this coin in hand please let me know what it looks like. Why don't professional graders hand out grades based on scanned images on the internet?

    MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • bushmaster8bushmaster8 Posts: 5,616 ✭


    << <i>Exactly...that scrape under the nose and scar on the face should limit it to a 64 MAX. >>



    Hello! It is still MS64. MS64+ does not mean 65!
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
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    Mary






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  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Exactly...that scrape under the nose and scar on the face should limit it to a 64 MAX. >>
    Hello! It is still MS64. MS64+ does not mean 65! >>


    HELLO! It is not a 64. It's a 64+ which is different in both grade and price and based on those images it is not high end for the grade which is what my original post clearly said.
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • rld14rld14 Posts: 2,390 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>



    A lot of people don't seem to understand that.



    << <i>Aren't marks less obvious in a scan and usually more obvious in hand under a bright light? >>



    I think attemping to generalize about how all coins look in a scan vs in hand is silly. None of us has ever seen in this particular piece in hand (I don't believe), and no one can say what it actually looks like. >>



    Well put.

    You know, I saw a coin posted on here once, IIRC it was one of RC Toners' coins, and it was getting a bit brutalized for marks. Now, when I saw the same exact coin in hand at a show, the marks were not noticeable, but what you couldn't see from the images on here was absolutely MONSTER luster that still shone right through the toning. The coin had absolutely fantastic eye appeal and, IMO, was conservatively graded.
    Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
  • CoinCrazyPACoinCrazyPA Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭
    I think High Reliefs coin is far superior than the OP.
    Positive BST transactions: agentjim007, cohodk, CharlieC, Chrischampeon, DRG, 3 x delistamps, djdilliodon, gmherps13, jmski52, Meltdown, Mesquite, 2 x nibanny, themaster, 2 x segoja, Timbuk3, ve3rules, jom, Blackhawk, hchcoin, Relaxn, pitboss, blu62vette, Jfoot13, Jinx86, jfoot13,Ronb

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  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Not worthy of a "+" by my way of thinking. There is far too much going on in the prime focal area of the face and neck. >>



    image Ridiculous!
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Morgan cheek is the first thing I look at.
    I say64-
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭✭
    Does not look high end to me. It just goes to so you....
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,234 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think High Reliefs coin is far superior than the OP. >>



    It's not. Not even close.
    Early Dollar Set
  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>You have to remember, they weren't grading a picture on a computer monitor. >>



    A lot of people don't seem to understand that.



    << <i>Aren't marks less obvious in a scan and usually more obvious in hand under a bright light? >>



    I think attemping to generalize about how all coins look in a scan vs in hand is silly. None of us has ever seen in this particular piece in hand (I don't believe), and no one can say what it actually looks like. >>



    I think the image is clear enough. Of course, I'm assuming the image is mostly accurate. If the image is at least mostly accurate, the coin is barely a 64 IMO. If the image is not even close to being accurate, then who knows what the coin should be. My gut feeling is that the image is at least mostly accurate and those hits and rubs are indeed there on the cheek and neck. If anything, my guess is that the image is possibly hiding even more potential issues. Therefore, for a coin like this to achieve the mighty "+"???imageimage
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    high reliefs coin is nice, but the strike is better on the e-bay coin. -------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Strike factors into about .01% in grading those two coins. The second coin has significantly more rub and less virgin frost on the face - the first coin is pristine with marks. For a Morgan, that makes all the difference in the world.

    Collectors tend to overgrade mishandled coins with few marks and undergrade pristine coins with marks.
    Early Dollar Set
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    <<<Strike factors into about .01% in grading those two coins>>>


    imageIts technicals that count!-----------------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lesson from this thread---Just because a coin has a + doesn't mean that you shouldn't examine it first to see if you agree with the +.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Lesson from this thread---Just because a coin has a + doesn't mean that you shouldn't examine it first to see if you agree with the +. >>



    But they have a price guide for that + too!image
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Lesson from this thread---Just because a coin has a + doesn't mean that you shouldn't examine it first to see if you agree with the +. >>



    But they have a price guide for that + too!image >>



    Doh!image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    I think the seller is shooting himself in the foot with the pics he provided. He should have backed up and used a diferent angle and then let the plastic do the talking.image In hand the coin may be nicer than the pics. He did not do himself any favors with the pics.

    BTW i wish all sellers posted pics this nice even if it bites them.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

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  • jmj3esqjmj3esq Posts: 5,421 ✭
    I would not consider that a high end MS64 with that beat up cheek.
  • TigerGirl1398TigerGirl1398 Posts: 83
    Why worry about things which you have no control over??image
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I might be wrong, but I thought the + was an eye appeal factor, not a higher 1/2 grade.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I might be wrong, but I thought the + was an eye appeal factor, not a higher 1/2 grade. >>



    The plus means that the coin is in the top 10% of the assigned grade in PCGS's opinion. The star designation on NGC slabs is for eye appeal.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    As we have found with regular grading, some series and rare dates seem
    to get slightly differing levels of toughness in grading. Why shouldn't the
    same concept apply to the + grading.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I might be wrong, but I thought the + was an eye appeal factor, not a higher 1/2 grade. >>



    The plus means that the coin is in the top 10% of the assigned grade in PCGS's opinion. The star designation on NGC slabs is for eye appeal. >>



    Its not 10% of the grade its 30% (.7.8.9).
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I might be wrong, but I thought the + was an eye appeal factor, not a higher 1/2 grade. >>



    The plus means that the coin is in the top 10% of the assigned grade in PCGS's opinion. The star designation on NGC slabs is for eye appeal. >>



    Its not 10% of the grade its 30% (.7.8.9). >>



    Additionally, only the top 10 to 15% of coins in a certain grade (MS64, MS65 etc.) will make it-------------BigE
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • dohdoh Posts: 6,457 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Its not 10% of the grade its 30% (.7.8.9). >>


    Mathematically it seems like it would be 30%, but it's not. DW, I believe, said it was only the top 10-15% of the grade get the + which means .7 .8 .9 (30%) + eye appeal and that comes out to about 15% of the coins. I guess that means a coin be a .7 .8 or .9, but not have great eye appeal, so it wouldn't get the +
    Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Its not 10% of the grade its 30% (.7.8.9). >>


    Mathematically it seems like it would be 30%, but it's not. DW, I believe, said it was only the top 10-15% of the grade get the + which means .7 .8 .9 (30%) + eye appeal and that comes out to about 15% of the coins. I guess that means a coin be a .7 .8 or .9, but not have great eye appeal, so it wouldn't get the + >>



    David Hall on pcgs secure plus.

    "The high end for any particular grade represents the top 30 percent of the scale within a grade and I estimate that the plus designation would apply to approximately 15 percent to 20 percent of the coins within a grade. Those technically superior coins in the high end for their grade will now have a plus sign (+) on their PCGS insert label."

    link

    Estimate. It can change,it can be different for different series or different grades.
    To claim your coin is in the top 10% of the grade beacuase it got a + is wrong imho. Its in the top 30% of the grade.
    The plus may eventually represent the top 10% of coins given that grade or maybe the top 30% of the coins given that grade. Only time will tell.
  • dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Additionally, only the top 10 to 15% of coins in a certain grade (MS64, MS65 etc.) will make it >>



    Can someone please explain to me how this can possibly already be known???image Sorry, but for me, this just screams "gimmick!"image
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
  • Halfhunter06Halfhunter06 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
    they gave that a plus!!!!!
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Additionally, only the top 10 to 15% of coins in a certain grade (MS64, MS65 etc.) will make it >>



    Can someone please explain to me how this can possibly already be known???image Sorry, but for me, this just screams "gimmick!"image >>



    Someone left out the estimate part.

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