"Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great" ...Discuss!

airplanenut · April 11, 2010 3:08AM

This has been a board member's signature line for a long time (yes, I checked with him before posting this thread), and it's probably bothered me more than any other. Perhaps the problem is that it is ambiguous. One way to read it, the way I do, is to say that there are no worthwhile inexpensive coins. Basically, if you don't have deep pockets, you can't have a collection worth being proud of. The other way, which is no how I've ever read it, is to say that within any set of parameters (namely grade), there will be a price spread based on quality, and the cheapest coins to meet the parameters will not be great coins. With this I find a good deal of truth, but certainly not a solid rule.

In general, my collection has been made up of coins which I would struggle to afford at their normal retail prices, or at least face some difficulty justifying. I can't add to my collection continuously, and I'm very meticulous about selecting pieces that are all there--solid for the grade, lots of eye appeal, and overall coins that I will be proud to show off. Recently, I've been adding only a few coins per year, but I got for quality, not quantity. Within my budget, I can't have both for the coins that I like. Now this is where the quote comes in, and I'll use some examples.

This is the last piece I've added to my collection, and it joined in early January. I paid a very significant premium to the Greysheet price, and while it is among the most expensive pieces in my collection, I would classify it as cheap for many others in terms of overall dollars. On the flip side, if you're judging based on how much a ho-hum example in the same plastic would cost, this coin was not cheap at all. I would argue that for eye-appealing toned shield nickels, you'd be hard pressed to find many with better color, and with strong technical characteristics as well (clean surfaces, great lustre), I'd call this a great coin.

Here's another coin that I love. Given how few toned peace dollars show up, this coin is extremely attractive and very hard to find. I won't say what I paid, but it wasn't anywhere near what I've been offered, making the coin very cheap. I still paid up the wazoo compared to what a white one would go for, so the coin was arguably expensive.

Then there are the countless other coins that can be had for very small price tags--$5, $25, $50. These are coins where generally you don't see large premiums being asked for the nicest examples because the spread from grade to grade is small. Lots of circulated type coins fit the bill here. For someone with an exacting eye, it's not hard at all to imaging hours being spent searching for just the right example, and then spending $20 to acquire it. The coin damn well can be great for what it is, even if it didn't cost an arm and a leg.

So what's your opinion of the quote, and how do you interpret it? Also, feel free to post your coins that you feel support, or don't support, the quote.

Jeremy

adamlaneus · April 11, 2010 3:10AM

This phrase drove me over to the Dark Side, where I found a bunch of Great Cheap coins.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. I'm happy. I may be delusional but i'm happy.

Obviously not in the same class as the coins you are talking about. But remember that everyone has their own individual 'upper limits'.

bidask · April 11, 2010 3:21AM

<< This phrase drove me over to the Dark Side, where I found a bunch of Great Cheap coins.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. I'm happy. I may be delusional but i'm happy.

Obviously not in the same class as the coins you are talking about. But remember that everyone has their own individual 'upper limits'. >>

Damn thats a nice Paraguay peso...congrats on that piece.

I think the OP sums it up in the title to his thread "Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great".

Justacommeman · April 11, 2010 3:22AM

Actually it's the same phrase that my mentor drove into my brain before I even made my first purchase.

I never took it to literally apply to just expensive coins.

I took it to mean that you have to pay up for premium coins at the level you collect. If you don't those coins will go to those that will. No free lunches.

If you buy on "the cheap" within the grade you collect you may find your coins hard to sell when the time comes at any price.

JMO

MJ

LanLord · April 11, 2010 3:23AM

Didn't someone dig a 1870-s half dime out of a dealers junk silver bin?

Or is that just hyperbole?

erickso1 · April 11, 2010 3:25AM

Jeremy, sweet peace dollar. I'll step up and give you $50 for it. Thought that would take your breath away.

To your point though I think there is some validity to the statement but it has to be in perspective. What may be a great, not cheap coin to me may be a cheap and thus not great coin to someone else since we may play in different dollar ballparks for our coins. Also, if someone does purchase what was an expensive coin relative to budget that they think is great and over time is able to expand their budget, does there coin become less and less great and more and more cheap?

So, like a lot of my answers seem to be on here, it depends on perspective.

Oh, I forgot to mention that was $50 including shipping.

adamlaneus · April 11, 2010 3:26AM

I hear 'ya. When I browse for coins, I'm looking for eye appeal first. Once I decide that I like the coin, I look at the price and see if it's something I can handle or not.
I guess in a sense, that's a focus on "coins that are great to me" rather than "coins that are cheap to me".

Goin' for cheap. The Dansco way. That's when you look through the dealers 3-ring-binders of coins, find five samples of a particular coin, all with issues. Then you play the issue/cost game. The better you play this game, the more Dansco holes you get to fill. And your albums are probably all junque in the end.

MidLifeCrisis · April 11, 2010 3:28AM

<< Actually it's the same phrase that my mentor drove into my brain before I even made my first purchase.

I never took it to literally apply to just expensive coins.

I took it to mean that you have to pay up for premium coins at the level you collect. If you don't those coins will go to those that will. No free lunches.

If you buy on "the cheap" within the grade you collect you may find your coins hard to sell when the time comes at any price.

JMO

MJ >>

I think MJ nailed it.

Waltz · April 11, 2010 3:37AM

The best coins in my collection are the one I "overpayed" for. I believe this holds true irrespective of the dollar being spent. I do not consider the phrase to be a shot across the bow in "coin class warfare". Rather, it's simply a recognition of market tested truisms.

Two quick examples from my Indian Cent Collection: A couple of years ago I spent $12.6K on a Variety II 1886 Proof Red 65 Cameo. It is a "great coin" and I was fortunate to get it. Two Red 66s tie it for highest registry points and it shares its vaulted "cameo" status with a lowly 62 Red Cameo. Rick Snow recently sold a Red 65 (no cameo) for $20k.

Around that time someone bought a 1859 Indian Cent proof 66 cameo for $17k at the Heritage auction. Not a great example, it's certainly toward the low end of the grade. Last year I picked it up at Heritage for about $8k.

Great coins are not cheap. And non-great coins often become cheaper....

pursuitofliberty · April 11, 2010 3:37AM

Jeremy, I have always loved that sig line ... and I have always read it as "great for what they are".

I think it's a great subject (take away the plastic and stickers and plusses and star-bellied sneetches) ... and then ... for what it is ... is it a Great Coin??

Because of the wonderful diversification of collectors we have here, I get to see;

* Amazing examples of rarities I could not afford to own (think TDN and Sunnywood right off the top), but it is quite obvious that they have GREAT coins for what the are (near finest known, fantastic superb-graded pieces).

* Wonderful middle level coins from almost every series, some of which are obviously GREAT for their respective grade ranges ... be that Choice, Gem or Very Fine.

* Some really well worn, and sometimes really esoteric items ... that although are not in my collecting interests ... again, are obviously GREAT coins for what they are.

In that respect, I think that a large group of all of these great coins are not cheap (unless they were cherried). Whether it's paying $5. for a raw gem quality 1953-D Nickel because it's "all that and then some great" which might also be found for a buck or two in a similar grade, or paying $20,000. for a special example of a coin that might also be found in the same grade priced at $10,000.

Two of the most important snipets of advice I was ever given as a collector was to "buy what I could afford to keep", and to "buy the absolute best you can within your collecting budget and plans".

BTW, IMO ... your Shield Nickel is a GREAT!! coin ... and that Peace dollar is pretty awesome too.

Moldnut · April 11, 2010 3:42AM

This came this week for $65. I think its very cool for not much money and its even in a PCGS holder.

Walkerguy21D · April 11, 2010 3:51AM

Look for VALUE, whatever your price level is.....$2600 for a red unc common date indian cent, when you can get a lovely ms red/brown cent of the same date for $50? I'd take the R&B coin, even though it may not be a "great" coin.....Obviously I don't do a whole lotta biz with the Legends of the world. CoinKid just posted a beautifully toned and under graded Morgan in old ANACs holder that I know he paid less that $40 for.....now that's value.
The market is thin for expensive wonder coins, especially those that are common and much less expensive in the next grade down, or with slightly less pizzaz. But to those that can afford them and appreciate them, I have no problem with that - unless snobbery comes into play....

bidask · April 11, 2010 3:51AM

<< This came this week for $65. I think its very cool for not much money and its even in a PCGS holder.

>>

Thats a cool coin......

messydesk · April 11, 2010 4:22AM

The quote is logically redundant.

TomB · April 11, 2010 4:36AM

I have never interpreted the phrase the way Jermey appears to have done so in the past. My interpretation has been that if someone is using price as the final, only or most important determinant of purchase then that person runs the risk of passing on coins that retain more value and also has a risk of purchasing coins that might not be as nice as they seem to be at first glance.

ricko · April 11, 2010 4:57AM

There is some truth to the statement, however, it is usually applied in an elitist manner with someone gloating over their expensive acquisition. Cheers, RickO

ambro51 · April 11, 2010 5:23AM

Ive spent a lot of time on getting question straight in my head but I cant do it.

sounds the question should be preceeded by """Confucious Say.........'''

JCMhouston · April 11, 2010 6:22AM

I agree with the sentiment although in a relativistic way, not an absolute. I don't have any expensive coins (say over $2500), but I do have a couple of great coins. Several are the finest graded, and a couple are the finest known. I don't have any problem paying 2-5 times the book value, particularly for a coin that may only come up once every 10-15 years.

Of course most of mine are darkside coins, but as an example I just bought this one this year. 1817 Shilling R/E error spelling in Geor, in MS63. None of the books price it above EF, and from the specialist dealers I have consulted it is likely the finest known. There was another that was considered uncirculated last seen 8-9 years ago but present whereabouts unknown. My photo doesn't do it justice but it's all there for a 63, I was very happy to pay double the EF book price for it.

I think you can find great coins in any price range, you just need to be patient while looking, and ready to pay when you see one.

MidLifeCrisis · April 11, 2010 6:24AM

<< I think you can find great coins in any price range, you just need to be patient while looking, and ready to pay when you see one. >>

Exactly.

mcarney1173 · April 11, 2010 7:16AM

<<

>>

Is the entire shield design on the obverse perfectly symmetrical. It looks tilted to me...

SDSportsFan · April 11, 2010 7:20AM

The problem with that saying, is that "cheap" is highly subjective.

To Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, a $100,000 coin is cheap.

To me, a $500 coin is certainly NOT cheap.

Steve

RYK · April 11, 2010 7:26AM

I think that the gist of this adage is that those who live and die by the Greysheet tend not to step up and by nicer coins (for the grade), not that nice coins cannot be found at any budget.

RedTiger · April 11, 2010 7:30AM

It doesn't bother me. The coin hobby is a big tent. There is plenty of room for all kinds of collectors. From roll searchers, junk box collectors, proof set collectors, circulated album fillers, all the way up to registry participants that want the top pops for their series, or the box of 20 folks that only want a very few coins with spectacular eye appeal.

Personally, I prefer "average coins at average prices." Folks tell me that leads to an average collection. That's fine by me. I'm an average grader. I have average access to coins. I have an average coin budget. Given that starting point, an average collection is where most will end up. Those with a great eye for grading, excellent access to fresh coins, and a generous coin budget, they can have their fun too. I don't begrudge them their enjoyment of the hobby.

As always, collect what you like and enjoy the hobby. I don't worry about what others might think of my collection. It's my collection. As long as a person is enjoying the hobby, the rest doesn't matter.

RYK · April 11, 2010 7:35AM

Personally, I prefer "average coins at average prices." Folks tell me that leads to an average collection. That's fine by me. I'm an average grader. I have average access to coins. I have an average coin budget. Given that starting point, an average collection is where most will end up. Those with a great eye for grading, excellent access to fresh coins, and a generous coin budget, they can have their fun too. I don't begrudge them their enjoyment of the hobby.

I think that you sell yourself short with your outlook and expectations. Why not shoot for above average (for the grade) coins at average prices? Or average coins at below average prices? They are out there.

SDSportsFan · April 11, 2010 7:37AM

<< I think that the gist of this adage is that those who live and die by the Greysheet tend not to step up and by nicer coins (for the grade), not that nice coins cannot be found at any budget. >>

Thank you RYK!

I completely agree!

You might occasionally get lucky, but for the most part, if you want nice for the grade, you will have to pay a premium.

Steve

Unknown · April 11, 2010 7:42AM

This content has been removed.

dizzyfoxx · April 11, 2010 7:43AM

There was a time that I travelled on this band wagon idea but after years of growing in the hobby, here is my take on this phrase.... It's absolute and total bull

. To say such a thing, and mean it, IMO is pure ignorance and terribly disrespectful to fellow hobbyists. I've owned many many great coins that were cheap in price and I've owned some coins that I thought were great that were not cheap, but turned out to be not so good buys. I think this is a phrase that someone thought up, said it out loud, it sounded good, so it stuck. I think it's a ridiculous and pompous way to describe the vast majority of coins throughout our great hobby.

RYK · April 11, 2010 7:50AM

<< There was a time that I travelled on this band wagon idea but after years of growing in the hobby, here is my take on this phrase.... It's absolute and total bull

. To say such a thing, and mean it, IMO is pure ignorance and terribly disrespectful to fellow hobbyists. I've owned many many great coins that were cheap in price and I've owned some coins that I thought were great that were not cheap, but turned out to be not so good buys. I think this is a phrase that someone thought up, said it out loud, it sounded good, so it stuck. I think it's a ridiculous and pompous way to describe the vast majority of coins throughout our great hobby. >>

cmerlo1 · April 11, 2010 8:42AM

'Cheap' is relative to one's income level, IMHO...

SeattleSlammer · April 11, 2010 9:37AM

Well, Lloyd has some ridiculously sweet toners, that's for sure.

I think of this coin as great.......as it's so hard to find truly sweet toned Norse medals, let alone thin planchet examples like this one. For my wallet it was pretty expensive but to many on this forum it wouldn't even be a drop in their buckets. Does that mean that some wouldn't consider it a great coin? Very likely. But that doesn't mean that I appreciate it any less.

Collect coins that you think are great.

TheRegulator · April 11, 2010 10:44AM

I've always thought that line was pretty laughable. If a collector can only acquire "great coins" by throwing away gobs of money, chances are they are a pretty lazy collector. There are some great collections being assembled on this board by very knowledgeable collectors. They require much more than money...

But what does the sigline say about coins like this one???

Type2 · April 11, 2010 11:01AM

If it's cheap and you have alot of $$$ you cant buy it so us guys with no $$$ can buy it. that is the rule.

kaz · April 11, 2010 11:24AM

I always took it to mean "be prepared to pay for quality" and "if it looks like a bargain, it has a problem."

dsessom · April 11, 2010 11:57AM

"Cheap" and "Great" are both relative terms, but that toned shield nickel is gorgeous! Then again, I love shield and Liberty nickels!

bidask · April 11, 2010 12:02PM

The irony I find my attitude as a coin collector is that I enjoy many of my cheap coins that are not great as much as my great coins that are not cheap.

Seriously.

AnkurJ · April 11, 2010 12:15PM

I love cheap beat up widgets! In my opinion, they all show character as to where they have been and what they have seen. (Including some scary things!)

I buy what I can afford, and I love what I have, like this one:

Based on this, my new sigline will be:

"Its not having what you want, it's wanting what you got!"

TwoSides2aCoin · April 11, 2010 12:25PM

Great coins are expensive unless it's a rip
and cheap coins are great if it's a rip.

melvin289 · April 11, 2010 12:49PM

Finding great coins at good prices is like most things. One must be in the right place at the right time. I think it was was Richard Petty that said you have to put yourself in a position to be able to win. I have won several coins down through the years off the Bay that surprised me that I won and were very nice coins when they arrived.

Ron

bestclser1 · April 11, 2010 11:46PM

<< Actually it's the same phrase that my mentor drove into my brain before I even made my first purchase.

I never took it to literally apply to just expensive coins.

I took it to mean that you have to pay up for premium coins at the level you collect. If you don't those coins will go to those that will. No free lunches.

If you buy on "the cheap" within the grade you collect you may find your coins hard to sell when the time comes at any price.

JMO

MJ >>

Seeing as MJ and I had many of the same mentors,and RYK gets my meaning as well.As for the large cent,i TRADED it when i thought it might be AT.FYI

ambro51 · April 12, 2010 12:06AM

Well, HERES a Great Coin by all Numismatic definitions. It is Rare, with only 400 minted. Today maybe fifty known? circulated, AU and XF problem free graded coins...maybe 15? Its seldom offered for sale and prices start about 5K for a problem free coin to the 107K Legend just spent on a ms66.

I think a Great Coin needs to be something rare ~~~~more significant than the way the tarnish occured on a common coin.

AngryTurtle · April 12, 2010 12:16AM

my interpretation of "Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great":

Each coin is individual, and must be judged on its own merits. If coins are bought by price alone, you will end up with the least appealing coins in the grade.

I also think that this quote is a variant of "Buy the best you can afford"

yellowkid · April 12, 2010 1:19AM

As has been pointed out, it is all relative, and there are still some "scores" to be had on popular series. However, if you want to build a great collection, one that would be desirable to a majority of the coin world, one that makes people sit up and notice, you are going to have to pay a premium.

Billet7 · April 12, 2010 1:53AM

Sometimes you get lucky.

tychojoe · April 12, 2010 2:02AM

<< Actually it's the same phrase that my mentor drove into my brain before I even made my first purchase. I never took it to literally apply to just expensive coins. I took it to mean that you have to pay up for premium coins at the level you collect. If you don't those coins will go to those that will. No free lunches.

If you buy on "the cheap" within the grade you collect you may find your coins hard to sell when the time comes at any price. >>

Right. So there's room in the sigline quote for great coins that don't cost alot of money. Pay the premium for the coin at the level you collect. Which is obviously what Jeremy's two examples show. Good post, Jeremy. Inspired lots of replies with good perspectives.

Good advice for newbies like me.

metalmeister · April 12, 2010 2:29AM

Red Tiger pretty much nailed it. Coin collecting is "a big tent"
Pick your passion and enjoy from roll searching up to high end coin shows.
I would say the nicer coins will always sell quicker. IMHO

adamlaneus · April 12, 2010 2:38AM

So many other sub-rules branch off of the main rule:

Grape coins are not peach. Peach coins are not grape.

Hair coins are not feet. Feet coins are not hair.

Tape coins are not glue. Glue coins are not tape.

Contractual obligation coins are not emulsifying salt coins. Emulsifying salt coins are not contractual obligation coins.

(sorry, just having fun)

AngryTurtle · April 12, 2010 3:17AM

"Great corners are not cheap and cheap parts are not very"

(Result of running "Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great" thru Google translator English to French to English again.

rld14 · April 12, 2010 3:19AM

Jeremy,

I think that you kind of answered your question yourself, and I mean that in a nice way

See, to me, those coins that you bought and posted images of are both VERY nice and you did pay a premium. I have exactly ONE better date Barber that I bought for just over greysheet, and it's a PIG and the one coin in my VF set that I regret buying. To be fair, the seller sold it to me at a very good price, but it's not a very nice coin. I paid $675 for it when a really nice example would have cost me about $900-1000 for that date.

The vast majority of my coins in the Barber set are really nice coins, and I paid really nice coin prices for an awful lot of them, some I bought for average retail, but there's only a couple that I really ripped.

garrynot · April 12, 2010 3:25AM

I have seen variations of the phrase "Great coins are not cheap" in auction catalog descriptions, or preambles. So auction houses will use such a phrase to get prople motivated to bid. Great coins are in the eye of the beholder. Enough said.

morgantype · April 12, 2010 3:43AM

I think it is simply saying, "Regardless of what you collect, circs or high end rarities, you will generally pay more for the coins that are great. The ones that are eye poppingly appealing. The ones that you will always admire, versus become sick of overtime." so sit back, relax, build a set you love and keep it all in perspective. Don't mortgage the house, don't raid the 401k there is much more to life.

That being said, it doesn't hurt to have nicer than average coins when you go to sell. And you (or your heirs) will sell eventually. So yoi are basically paying a premium today for the "great coin" for the high level of satisfaction while you own it, and a higher level of demand when you sell.

My 3 cent silver!

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · April 13, 2010 12:05AM

Well, here's my philosophy on this, and I'm sure there will be many who think I'm nutty, so be it.
At the moment, I collect (raw) early British copper (1670s and up, but concentrating on the 200-300 yr old area.).
With these coins, I really don't pay much attention to "grades" in the sense of a coin's condition. I grade based on the coin's value or worth. It IS based on the coins condition, it's just the scale is in Dollars, not the typical 1-70 scale.
I don't have a lot to spend on coins, so I try to get the ones that have a nice look, for a good price.
There are coins that should sell for $100, those that should be $50, and those that commonly go for $10.

I sometimes get what I consider to normally be a $50 coin for $15. Whenever I look at those, I'm thinking "That's a great coin!".

I have, however, spent $25 on a $10 coin, usually due to impatience more than anything. I try not to look at them too much ("Not Great").

I reckon it will all even out, and as long as I enjoy it, and that's what matters.

I generally agree with the original statement, but I wouldn't carve it into stone. Too many exceptions.

Edited to more clearly state my feelings towards the original post.

"Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great" ...Discuss!

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&quot;Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great&quot; ...Discuss!

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"Great Coins are Not Cheap, and Cheap Coins are Not Great" ...Discuss!