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Does PCGS plastic tone the copper in AGEs? (Pics Added)
jmski52
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I've bought various slabbed AGEs that invariably seemed to show up with some toning. This caused me to suspect that something in PCGS's process reacts with copper. Until now, I simply shrugged it off as an anomaly of some sort.
Now, I'm really concerned. I've had a couple 1989 1/2 oz. American Gold Eagles since 1989. I kept them both raw until a couple years ago, when I decided to send in the best one for grading.
Neither one of them ever had any spots or toning.
Now, the whole darned coin has started toning, unevenly, in some spots and overall as well. My other 1989 1/2 ozer is still just fine, no toning, and they've both been stored together, except that now the slabbed one is also inside a blue box inside a slab.
What the heck is going on? Has anyone else had this happen? How can a good coin sit for almost 20 years, and now it's look is changed, and not for the better I might add.......
Now, I'm really concerned. I've had a couple 1989 1/2 oz. American Gold Eagles since 1989. I kept them both raw until a couple years ago, when I decided to send in the best one for grading.
Neither one of them ever had any spots or toning.
Now, the whole darned coin has started toning, unevenly, in some spots and overall as well. My other 1989 1/2 ozer is still just fine, no toning, and they've both been stored together, except that now the slabbed one is also inside a blue box inside a slab.
What the heck is going on? Has anyone else had this happen? How can a good coin sit for almost 20 years, and now it's look is changed, and not for the better I might add.......
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I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
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The many I've seen look like brass.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
If gold is submitted in either poly bags or polyvinyl 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 flips instead of the recommended mylar flips, PVC residue can remain on the surface of the coin. Somehow the PVC reacts when the coin is sonically sealed into the slab.
PCGS sent out fliers to club members warning them of this a few years go.
<< <i>I've bought various slabbed AGEs that invariably seemed to show up with some toning. This caused me to suspect that something in PCGS's process reacts with copper. Until now, I simply shrugged it off as an anomaly of some sort.
Now, I'm really concerned. I've had a couple 1989 1/2 oz. American Gold Eagles since 1989. I kept them both raw until a couple years ago, when I decided to send in the best one for grading.
Neither one of them ever had any spots or toning.
Now, the whole darned coin has started toning, unevenly, in some spots and overall as well. My other 1989 1/2 ozer is still just fine, no toning, and they've both been stored together, except that now the slabbed one is also inside a blue box inside a slab.
What the heck is going on? Has anyone else had this happen? How can a good coin sit for almost 20 years, and now it's look is changed, and not for the better I might add....... >>
You may be right.....
TD
<< <i>The toning is probably PVC. If gold is submitted in either poly bags or polyvinyl 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 flips instead of the recommended mylar flips, PVC residue can remain on the surface of the coin. Somehow the PVC reacts when the coin is sonically sealed into the slab. PCGS sent out fliers to club members warning them of this a few years go. >>
99.44% of modern gold gets submitted in the original mint capsules. In addition to the example in the OP which obviously had no contact with PVC, the toned AGEs that I have for sale on ebay have never been in contact with PVC. PVC gets blamed for a lot of things it doesn't deserve.
<< <i>The toning is probably PVC.
If gold is submitted in either poly bags or polyvinyl 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 flips instead of the recommended mylar flips, PVC residue can remain on the surface of the coin. Somehow the PVC reacts when the coin is sonically sealed into the slab.
PCGS sent out fliers to club members warning them of this a few years go. >>
Over the years, mine have all been submitted in original mint caps and many are now toned in PCGS holders. My NGC holders are not displaying any toning on the AGE's.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
I am well aware of pvc, and the coin was submitted in 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 Saflips as recommended by PCGS.
I am stating that there is a problem, and it wasn't caused by mishandling. The fact that this is happening on a coin that didn't show any problems for 18 years before being submitted should be cause for concern by anyone who owns slabbed gold coins.
I have "before" photos, and I will post both "before" and "after" photos when I get the "after" photos done.
I knew it would happen.
i would ask a silly question: What is so special about the copper in AGE's, why doesn't this happen to all standard US coins which contain copper, especially those with a much higher concentration such as Copper coins(95%), Nickel coins(75% and 56%) and Modern Clad coins(75% in the outer layer)??
while i don't doubt what you say you are seeing i do doubt that it has anything to do with AGE's and the PCGS capsule.
<< <i>Does PCGS plastic tone the copper in AGEs?
i would ask a silly question: What is so special about the copper in AGE's, why doesn't this happen to all standard US coins which contain copper, especially those with a much higher concentration such as Copper coins(95%), Nickel coins(75% and 56%) and Modern Clad coins(75% in the outer layer)??
while i don't doubt what you say you are seeing i do doubt that it has anything to do with AGE's and the PCGS capsule. >>
Just guessing, but perhaps it has something to do with the 3% silver alloy in the AGE's.
TD
my reply would be the same since it doesn't seem to be a problem with silver coins nor is it anything i've ever heard regarding 18th-19th Century Gold coins with silver in the alloy. i would assume that it has nothing to do with the plastic in the PCGS capsule which has been extensively tested and proven to be inert, but is most probably some kind of a handling/exposure problem, either by the submitter or at PCGS when the coins are recieved. there have been other problem like this related to either flips, atmosphere or employees/someone at PCGS, but none i remember which caused coins to tone. those others were hairlines or fingerprints.
<< <i> i would assume that it has nothing to do with the plastic in the PCGS capsule which has been extensively tested and proven to be inert, but is most probably some kind of a handling/exposure problem, either by the submitter or at PCGS when the coins are recieved. there have been other problem like this related to either flips, atmosphere or employees/someone at PCGS, but none i remember which caused coins to tone. those others were hairlines or fingerprints. >>
Do you have a link to the report on this testing?
I would have to ask your same question back. Why would your handling/exposure problem only show up in modern gold? Maybe the modern gold grader needs to change his cologne? (that's a joke).
-Jerry
<< <i>The toning is probably PVC.
If gold is submitted in either poly bags or polyvinyl 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 flips instead of the recommended mylar flips, PVC residue can remain on the surface of the coin. Somehow the PVC reacts when the coin is sonically sealed into the slab.
PCGS sent out fliers to club members warning them of this a few years go. >>
The warning issued by PCGS concerning poly bags had to due with proof coins and had nothing to do with PVC. There is NO PVC plasticizer in poly bags.
Is there any greater tendency for one size, such as, say, the 10ths?
TD
Do you have a link to the report on this testing?
no Jerry, no link.
also, my response doesn't say that there aren't handling problems with other coins so you shouldn't infer that i was indicting the Modern Gold grader. i was only saying that the problems happening to the AGE's, by logical extension, should also be happening to other coins at a more frequent rate. that says to me it probably isn't the PCGS capsule.
I was really just making a joke about the grader.
--jerry
Yes, the gold eagles sometimes tone - mint state and proof. All sizes. Somtimes, beautifully. I seek out these coins as did RYK. I also do not mind some natural patination
Yes, the proof gold commems tone - more often than the MS gold commems for some strange reason I have found? Show me a pretty toned one - I want it!
No, the platinum coins do not tone.
No, the buffalo coins do not tone --- that much. Very slightly on some though
Yes, the silver eagles tone - MS & proof
No, the silver commems do not tone - that much at all. Perhaps a little more on the proofs than the MS?
No, the graders have nothing to do with any of this. Jury still out if PCGS even has anything to "do with this"
If any of this concerns you greatly... collect the platinum!!
Wondercoin
<< <i>The warning issued by PCGS concerning poly bags had to due with proof coins and had nothing to do with PVC. There is NO PVC plasticizer in poly bags. >>
Nope. PCGS used to issue polyvinyl flips to collector members for the membership freebees.
The PCGS flyer warned of poly bags and polyvinyl flips.
"Before" pics (various lighting):
"After" pics, in slab for approx. 2 years:
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The OP's question is, why is it happening now? He says the coins were fine in 2x2. The "surface copper" explanation doesn’t hold water, or anything else. >>
it's likely when the coin was being removed from it's original holder to be slabbed. Oxidation during the process has aloud those elements to be more visible on the coin and honestly has nothing to do with the plastic of the pcgs slabs themselves.
I can completly relate to the frustration you might have while discovering the spotting. The same thing has happened to one of personaly favorite gold coins from New Zealand which is also a 22k gold coin.. After doing a little reaserch and learning of what the cause was and how insignificant it is towrds the value of the coin I quickly got over it but I would still prefer a perfectly blemish free surface ..
<< <i>in order to make a fair assessment on those two it would be necessary to know what they looked like before they were slabbed. >>
I've looked at thousands of gold eagles from the mint either before slabbed or just after slabbing and they all look just like the one on the right--bright light golden with no toning. I've never seen orange toning on gold coming from the mint. --Jerry
This was My coin I was telling you about.. You can see the copper spotting in the center of the ring... it's fairly difficult to see on the coin in hand unless your really looking for it and have it angled just right in the light..
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<< <i>its bullion, value doesn't change unless its a ms70..... >>
Thanks for the tip. --Jerry
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<< <i>I'm really not trying to find fodder for this thread but someone asked for a quote on some burnished gold. So I stumble on these two beauties. I think I'll start a poll on which one do you prefer (independent of grade). I think this is a very attractively toned 2008-W $10 AGE. These two coins came home from PCGS the same day and have been stored together in the same PCGS blue box in the same SDB ever since. Edit to add: Both coins looked like the coin on the left on the day I got them back.
<< <i>
I like the look of that toned AGE but would prefer the one on the left. I just don't trust toned coins at all, don't have the money to risk on the premium and don't feel confident on the stability of the look esp since this seemed to happen soon after slabbing.
As to why this happens to some and not others - I do not know but find it facinating. There is a reason.
Edited - my reply is not supposed to be italicized. There is a reason, i just don't know why.
The toning comes from the rinse that the mint uses. In some cases the coin can be raw and this will still occur but I do believe that the PCGS holders tend to re-act more with this than some other holders. Personally I like most of the toning but it's not what I would consider real toning. Real toning involves the actual surface of the coin and a chemical change. This toning and or spotting on the gold eagles will just rinse off in lite bath and does not seem to change the original luster or surface the coiin. At least this is what I have found over the years. Also, PCGS will fix the spotting under their spot review if you don't like how the coin has turned.
Larry,
Dabigkahuna
any further comments?