So, how good is PCGS's guarantee?

coindudeonebay · February 8, 2010 9:30AM

I recently had a 1965 SMS cent graded at SP65Cam sent in for appearance review because of the whole copper guarantee and based on the fact that I was able to locate a replacement for said coin. The reason for the spot review was because of carbon spots.

The replacement cost me $600.

So, I heard back from PCGS, they agreed with my diagnosis of the coin, called it SP64, no cam. Really I thought the coin should have been at 63, and most likely no cam.

So, their price guide lists the coin at $600. So, what do they offer me for the coin? They offer $400 if I take the coin back and $410 if I let them keep the coin. They said that "Due to the current market we feel the coin is valued at"... there have been no recent sales other than the one I was involved in.

So, what do you guys think of that? How good is PCGS's guarantee?

And, lastly, what are the odds this will be deleted.

WaterSport · February 8, 2010 9:34AM

Unless you got a receipt.....

"Bonk"

WS

Amigo · February 8, 2010 9:35AM

I think it's a pretty fair offer all in all.

I'm not saying that all their offers are fair, but I think in this example it is. I know that's not want you expected to hear. I know I'd be agreeable if the offer was made to me.

coindudeonebay · February 8, 2010 9:35AM

I have a very reliable source who happens to reside here and near the top on all SMS categories. How do you think I found the replacement cent!

Wolf359 · February 8, 2010 9:35AM

Come on, why air dirty laundry like this?

Zap

illini420 · February 8, 2010 9:36AM

$400 + the coin might not be too bad depending on what a 64 no cam is worth (I'm guessing not much). sure it would be better for the customer if they paid their own price guide price or at least found you a place where you can get that coin replaced for $400, but it sure beats no guarantee at all... which i guess is where we are w/ copper post-1/1/2010.

stinkinlincoln · February 8, 2010 9:39AM

So, you get to keep the coin and $400, or no coin and $410? Why not take the coin and $400, sell the coin for whatever you can, make up the difference, and buy your new coin? Pretty fair IMHO. PPCGS value is whatever PCGS says, their price guide and all. It could be worse.

OPA · February 8, 2010 9:44AM

<< I recently had a 1965 SMS cent graded at SP65Cam sent in for appearance review because of the whole copper guarantee and based on the fact that I was able to locate a replacement for said coin. The reason for the spot review was because of carbon spots.

The replacement cost me $600.

So, I heard back from PCGS, they agreed with my diagnosis of the coin, called it SP64, no cam. Really I thought the coin should have been at 63, and most likely no cam.

So, their price guide lists the coin at $600. So, what do they offer me for the coin? They offer $400 if I take the coin back and $410 if I let them keep the coin. They said that "Due to the current market we feel the coin is valued at"... there have been no recent sales other than the one I was involved in.

So, what do you guys think of that? How good is PCGS's guarantee?

And, lastly, what are the odds this will be deleted. >>

I think the odds are good that you may be deleted.....

Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well.

coindudeonebay · February 8, 2010 9:47AM

No bashing, just asking an honest question. And, I'm really appreciating the honest feedback, I hope they see this thread as such. To me, it was surprising to read some of the comments, but I'm open to them and I'm feeling better about the decision I made on the coin.

sinin1 · February 8, 2010 9:48AM

I think you paid too much for your replacement ($600)

if you actually did, you must have a receipt - send them a copy of that as they do not know of any recent sales - you have one
and then you can renegotiate

lope208 · February 8, 2010 9:48AM

We already know the slabs are not airtight and things can change over time.
That said, $400 and keeping the coin seems pretty fair to me. I don't collect
Lincolns so I'm sure you're out a decent amount from what you purchased the
coin at. But still, just by having the PCGS plastic was like a warranty covering
the value up to $400. That's really not that bad considering we all take the risk
of coins changing over time.

Hope the new one you got stays pristine for you!

TomB · February 8, 2010 9:48AM

They offered approximately 70% of their guide. That seems pretty fair to me.

lope208 · February 8, 2010 9:51AM

I think it's a legit thread that the OP posted. I have a coin or two
I'd consider sending in for grade review but haven't yet. As a collector,
I find it highly useful and important to hear about actual examples of
the guarantee in use.

Does PCGS expressly ask customers not to discuss any grade review
settlements? (Serious question).

19Lyds · February 8, 2010 9:52AM

I don't think it really matters what YOU paid for the coin as much as its what PCGS thinks the coin is worth through monitoring interdealer transactions via their coin dealer network.

Have you countered the offer including a scanned copy of your replacement receipt?

If not, I would and have done so in the past.

drwstr123 · February 8, 2010 9:53AM

Beats a kick in the ass.

Broadstruck · February 8, 2010 9:54AM

They offer $400 if I take the coin back and $410 if I let them keep the coin.

I have not been in your shoes but on a coin with a PCGS Value of $600... Getting Back $400 and keeping the coin seems like a great deal IMHO.

InternetJunky · February 8, 2010 10:01AM

<< They offer $400 if I take the coin back and $410 if I let them keep the coin.

I have not been in your shoes but on a coin with a PCGS Value of $600... Getting Back $400 and keeping the coin seems like a great deal IMHO. >>

Well said.

coindudeonebay · February 8, 2010 10:03AM

Anyone wanna buy a 1965 sp64 cent for $200 to help a brutha out! ;P

illini420 · February 8, 2010 10:03AM

Moreover, in just about any insurance policy you have you will have a deductible to pay. Think of this as a $200 deductible that you paid and then it may not sound quite as unreasonable, especailly given what you paid for this insurance policy provided by PCGS.

wondercoin · February 8, 2010 10:30AM

My 2 cents:

That 65cam coin is about a $450-$500 coin tops in today's market. If you take their $400 cash, you are essentially in your old coin (which you originally paid $600 for) for around $50 ($100 at the extreme most). Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Not relevant what you paid for the coin way back when really.

Wondercoin

chucknra · February 8, 2010 11:45AM

Take the $400 and keep the coin, then sell the coin. Huge profit!!!!

crypto79 · February 8, 2010 12:16PM

400$ is a lot of money for a super common penny. Yes they might not be tons with a full CAM but I could get you as many as you could buy in the GEM range with some CAM on them. for a lot less then $400. Not to dump on what you collect but the only reason that coin has value is because of PCGS plastic and how it relates to PCGS's own registry, it goes to logic that they know the rules/market they created better then you. Take the 410$ and go buy a complete 65 sms set in mint packaging and pocket the remaining 400$ IMO.

segoja · February 8, 2010 1:13PM

You ask how good the PCGS guarantee is???

Try the same thing across the street and see what you get

Notta, nothing, zilch, zero

Now answer your own question

19Lyds · February 8, 2010 1:18PM

<< You ask how good the PCGS guarantee is???

Try the same thing across the street and see what you get

Notta, nothing, zilch, zero

Now answer your own question >>

Really? I thought those boys had a buy back guarantee or at least cash?

segoja · February 8, 2010 1:30PM

Not on Copper...never had it

Non Copper yes, and it's pretty decent as well

TomB · February 8, 2010 1:49PM

Doesn't NGC have a ten year copper guarantee?

coinman23885 · February 8, 2010 2:11PM

<< Not on Copper...never had it

Non Copper yes, and it's pretty decent as well >>

That's not true. All NGC copper coins graded after 04-01-01 have a ten year guarantee. That warranty can be renewed by having the coin re-certified. NGC doesn't guarantee copper coins (and has always been firm on this issue from inception) that were graded before 04-01-01. I think the NGC buy back program is just as good as PCGS's and given the new copper guarantee, I would say that it is better in that regard IMHO. I personally don't see the arguments made [express or implied] that one service is inherently better than the other; both are relatively consistent in grading, authentication, etc. To say that the NGC guarantee in an analogous situation is worth nothing is misguided. Honestly, I'm more hesitant to purchase PCGS copper coins than I am NGC copper coins in the present market condition. At least NGC has never reneged or questionably altered its guarantee. (Or did you mean, by the text of your original post, that you should ask the question about the PCGS guarantee at the NGC Forums?)

I will offer the same advice to the original poster as I did on other coin forums: counteroffer. If worse comes to worse, I'd take the $400 and keep the coin; however, I think you could probably haggle with PCGS a bit. They aren't going to waste a lot of their time over a couple of hundred bucks.

coinguy1 · February 8, 2010 10:13PM

<< 

<< I recently had a 1965 SMS cent graded at SP65Cam sent in for appearance review because of the whole copper guarantee and based on the fact that I was able to locate a replacement for said coin. The reason for the spot review was because of carbon spots.

The replacement cost me $600.

So, I heard back from PCGS, they agreed with my diagnosis of the coin, called it SP64, no cam. Really I thought the coin should have been at 63, and most likely no cam.

So, their price guide lists the coin at $600. So, what do they offer me for the coin? They offer $400 if I take the coin back and $410 if I let them keep the coin. They said that "Due to the current market we feel the coin is valued at"... there have been no recent sales other than the one I was involved in.

So, what do you guys think of that? How good is PCGS's guarantee?

And, lastly, what are the odds this will be deleted. >>

I think the odds are good that you may be deleted.....

Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well. >>

His posts in this thread are about PCGS, not "other grading companies or service". And he doesn't sound as if he is bashing PCGS or anyone else.

Iconbuster · February 8, 2010 11:12PM

<< I will offer the same advice to the original poster as I did on other coin forums: counteroffer. If worse comes to worse, I'd take the $400 and keep the coin; however, I think you could probably haggle with PCGS a bit. They aren't going to waste a lot of their time over a couple of hundred bucks. >>

My own experience with PCGS' guarantee leads me to believe that unless there is recent market data to support your argument you'd be wasting your time haggling with them. In my own case I had 2 modern coins that downgraded upon review. One was a thinly-traded top pop coin while the other was a variety type that had had some recent activity on Heritage and TT. PCGS initially offered around wholesale bid for both but I was able to get them to raise their offer on the latter when I pointed them to the auction sales. I was satisfied with their final offer on that particular coin. On the other one they wouldn't budge at all.

rhedden · February 8, 2010 11:44PM

My feeling is that it the coin is really a 64 non-CAM, you probably could not have recovered your $600 by selling it to another collector, regardless of what the old holder said. Otherwise, you would have sold it and moved on. Take the $400 from PCGS, keep the coin as a reminder, make a note of who sold it to you, and don't buy any more coins that miss the grade.

I sent a group of PVC-spotted Proof Liberty nickels to PCGS about 3 years ago- and they offered to buy back every one of them for full retail. There was no negotiation involved- they paid the full replacement cost as promised. As I result, I think the grade guarantee is very fair- maybe better than fair.

coindudeonebay · February 9, 2010 2:33AM

So, just a question... say you have a $6000 coin, it's damaged in some way, or it turned in the holder, which is possible. We all know that coins that have been dipped have a times been holdered, and if it's not stable the coin will turn. Not sure what happened to the original coin in question, it had some spots to begin with, but in my haste to own a 65 cent in cam I settled for the coin because they just don't come up on the market. Anyhow, back to the $6000 coin, and you are offered $4000 for it. Would that be fair?

Also, I know that someone stated something about a deductible... yea sure there are deductibles... but a 33% deductible? Would you seriously have an insurance company who required a 33% deductible? I know I recently had my roof replaced for hail damage and I was required a 1% deductible... and some pay 2%. Now that's a deductible!

illini420 · February 9, 2010 2:48AM

well in your latest hypothetical if you really paid full retail for a coin you knew already had some issues with spots at the time of your purchase, then you probably overpaid for it. not sure PCGS should be held liable for that and be required to rebuy you a super nice example w/o any spots.

JimDepot · February 9, 2010 3:49AM

I am happy with the guarantee

From a previous thread

stinkinlincoln · February 9, 2010 3:53AM

<<Also, I know that someone stated something about a deductible... yea sure there are deductibles... but a 33% deductible? Would you seriously have an insurance company who required a 33% deductible? I know I recently had my roof replaced for hail damage and I was required a 1% deductible... and some pay 2%. Now that's a deductible!>>

disability lawyer= 1/3
lottery tax= 1/3
divorce= 1/2

PCGS= 1/3... Cant win them all...

It seems everyone everywhere wants atleast 1/3 huh...

BillJones · February 9, 2010 3:54AM

This is strictly my opinion, but I don’t think that the grading service should be responsible for your mistakes. Some people have criticized PCGS because they are offering you $400 when their price guide says the item is worth $600. My impression of the PCGS price guide is that it provides retail prices. I don’t think that a grading service guarantee should protect you against market swings and provide unlimited protection for prices paid at auction or at the retail level because retail prices can be very unrealistic. Retail prices really have almost no upper limit.

Let’s say you get carried away and pay $6,000 at auction for an item that market says is really worth $4,000. Should the grading company be responsible for your lack of market knowledge or discipline? Let’s say you pay a really high retail price to dealer who customarily charges strong prices for the items he sells. Should the grading company be responsible for you mistakes as a coin buyer? And looking at it another way should the grading company subsidize dealers who charge high prices? In my view the answer is no.

I think that the PCGS offer to you was more than fair. The Gray Sheet the roll bid price for 1965 SMS cents is only $11 for 50 coins. That comes out to 22 cents per coin. I dare say that many if not most of the coins in those rolls are SP-63 coins with no cameos. Looking at it that way, I’d say you are collecting in a high risk area of the market where you really have to know what you are doing. If you buy on impulse, in desperation or with a lack of knowledge, lot of the blame has to fall on your shoulders.

TomB · February 9, 2010 3:55AM

Many times deductibles are not a percentage, but rather are an amount. A typical homeowner's deductible might be at least $500 or even up to several thousand dollars. This comes off the top of any claim.

bushmaster8 · February 9, 2010 6:08AM

<< Unless you got a receipt.....

"Bonk"

WS >>

Actually, a receipt often will have no bearing on the price they offer you.

And there is a good reason for that. It prevents two parties from conspiring to milk false profits from the grading guarantee.

Consider the scenario where CollectorA (or DealerA) discovers a coin he owns has turned in the holder. He gets his evil buddy, CollectorB to "buy" the coin from him at an inflated price/ way over market. CollectorB submits the coin and the receipt under the PCGS Grade Guarantee. If PCGS pays out the inflated amount on the receipt, it could leave a potentially ill-begotten profit for the two conspirators to split.

lkeigwin · February 9, 2010 7:35AM

I've been in your shoes. I think PCGS makes generous, reasonable offers. No, they're not what their price guide cites. Think of those values as retail. What you are being offered is closer to what a dealer would pay for your coin.

PCGS has been far more fair than our friends ATS, in my experience. I have yet to collect under their guarantee even with a very solid claim.

I'm bummed by PCGS's change in guaranteeing copper. But I will continue to buy and sell only PCGS coins, especially copper.
Lance.

shorecoll · February 9, 2010 7:57AM

I think bushmaster has it right and people have tried things like this, looking for overgraded coins in auctions at bargain prices and submitting them under the guarantee. I have understood from prior threads that the guarantee covers wholesale value, not retail. For a specialty coin like that, I doubt most dealers would pay 67% of retail on a straight sale.

coindudeonebay · February 9, 2010 8:51AM

<< Actually, a receipt often will have no bearing on the price they offer you.

And there is a good reason for that. It prevents two parties from conspiring to milk false profits from the grading guarantee.

Consider the scenario where CollectorA (or DealerA) discovers a coin he owns has turned in the holder. He gets his evil buddy, CollectorB to "buy" the coin from him at an inflated price/ way over market. CollectorB submits the coin and the receipt under the PCGS Grade Guarantee. If PCGS pays out the inflated amount on the receipt, it could leave a potentially ill-begotten profit for the two conspirators to split. >>

I really like the point you made here, and understand your logic. I'm sure some of that goes into their thinking.

rbalderman1 · February 9, 2010 9:39AM

If I got %70 of the price guide on coins sold, I would be rich. Very good offer I think they made.

coinkat · February 9, 2010 10:40AM

It seems that the guarantee was very generous-

coinman23885 · February 9, 2010 3:10PM

<< Take the $400 and keep the coin, then sell the coin. Huge profit!!!! >>

How would you make a huge profit? In return for the offer, you would get:

a.) $400
b.) A PCGS 1965 SMS 1c SP64 no cameo reholdered to reflect its actual grade - a virtually worthless coin

This is much, much, much less than $600 or am I missing something here?

RedHerring · February 9, 2010 3:30PM

The offer is fair. If the OP overpaid for the coin at purchase (i.e. paid more than $300) then he made a mistake.

I would not expect PCGS to refund the full price guide value for a coin such as this one. I know I would never have paid close to $600 for it but that's just me and modern Lincoln's are not my gig.

There have been times when I've paid full PCGS Price Guide value for a sight-seen purchase in an OGH and I will do it again if I like the coin. And again, not to knock the OP's purchase, but there were almost 2.4 million 1965 proof Lincolns minted and the PCGS Pop report lists "dozens" in SP65CAM or better.

coinman23885 · February 9, 2010 3:39PM

<< Actually, a receipt often will have no bearing on the price they offer you.

And there is a good reason for that. It prevents two parties from conspiring to milk false profits from the grading guarantee.

Consider the scenario where CollectorA (or DealerA) discovers a coin he owns has turned in the holder. He gets his evil buddy, CollectorB to "buy" the coin from him at an inflated price/ way over market. CollectorB submits the coin and the receipt under the PCGS Grade Guarantee. If PCGS pays out the inflated amount on the receipt, it could leave a potentially ill-begotten profit for the two conspirators to split. >>

I really like the point you made here, and understand your logic. I'm sure some of that goes into their thinking.

But that's not the point. No one is arguing that the receipt should be binding on PCGS. The question in this increasingly complicated line drawing exercise is whether or not PCGS should be bound by their own price guide. I vote yes. After all, it was their error, and if the prices in the PCGS Price Guide are unrealistic then they should post reliable data, or at the very least, state explicity in both the guarantee and on the price guide that these prices are not relevant in determining or negotiating a buy back. (One could argue that these are intimated, but the policy should be unequivocal.) If PCGS doesn't abide by its price guide or at least make the aforesaid clarifications, then doesn't it become a useless marketing ploy? Even if that is the price guide's purpose, PCGS should not selectively choose when to apply its marketing techniques (i.e. those prices are what the coins are worth in order to increase liquidity of PCGS coins, but of course, they don't apply to us...). I don't like double standards and I feel that all of the third party grading services need to clarify their policies, with PCGS being no different. Why can't they have a formula, allowing for minimal discretion, along the lines of Greysheet bid + or - XY%. How difficult would that be? Even if the discretionary portion was increased, it would still provide a baseline from which a collector could make conscious decisions on.

As always: buy the coin and not the holder. I'm sorry to the original poster and I understand his blight; however, I think you are fighting a losing battle. $400 is probably more than you would get on eBay for your coin right now. I hope things work out. I hope PCGS increases their offer. I wish you the best of luck.

coinman23885 · February 9, 2010 3:41PM

I CANNOT DELETE - SO I MUST EDIT. SORRY.

RYK · February 9, 2010 9:34PM

<< They offered approximately 70% of their guide. That seems pretty fair to me. >>

BAJJERFAN · February 9, 2010 9:53PM

So from where did PCGS get the $600 figure that shows in the price guide?

coindudeonebay · February 10, 2010 9:26AM

Probably from sales to people who are SMS freaks like me! I know I paid $600 for mine and the person I purchased it from paid $600 for theirs... and way back, I paid, in cash and trade... $600 for my previous example. And I know, people are knocking my collecting tastes, but I was born in the SMS years and I have a special fondness for them. The fact is, these SMS cents in full cameo are rare and sure there were 2.5 million made and sure there are dozens that are 65 cam or better but these coins are not up for sale on a daily basis as other coins which a lot of people consider as rare are. These cameo examples are in the hands of collectors that hold them forever.

And, yea sure, I over paid for my example, and I should have let it go, but I was stubborn about wanting the coin. But... as stated, I didn't put it in the holder with the guarantee. I purchased the coin with the guarantee.

Bear · February 10, 2010 10:36AM

The PCGS Guarantee, is about as good a guarantee ,as one is apt
to get in this life on earth.

nankraut · February 10, 2010 11:24AM

<< I think it's a pretty fair offer all in all.

I'm not saying that all their offers are fair, but I think in this example it is. I know that's not want you expected to hear. I know I'd be agreeable if the offer was made to me. >>

So, how good is PCGS's guarantee?

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