Conserving a coin with PVC (before and after)
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
Last Oct I bought a trime not knowing it had some pvc. A fairly inexpensive one. I don't collect them but this was the coin that got me interested in collecting back in the early 60's. It was a gift from my grandparents. A burglar stole my collection in 1977 and the trime was among the coins I lost. So I wanted another.
The coin I bought had just been slabbed by PCGS (Sept, according the the seller). I probably should have returned it but decided instead to send it to PCGS. I was not sure if PCGS would bodybag it or keep it and reimburse me or try to remove the PVC. Whatever. I was kind of surprised it got graded and I thought PCGS should know. I was open-minded about how things might turn out.
PCGS rec'd it Oct 22 and I just got it back. I guess submissions like these get the back burner.
I have two questions:
1) What do you think of the new vs. old? I've formed my opinion already but I'm curious what others think.
2) What solution do you think PCGS used? Just acetone or something more (and what)?
Just for the record, I am not unhappy with PCGS over this. We can debate the coin's new appearance but there's no question that it is better off without the damaging PVC.
Lance.
BEFORE
AFTER
The coin I bought had just been slabbed by PCGS (Sept, according the the seller). I probably should have returned it but decided instead to send it to PCGS. I was not sure if PCGS would bodybag it or keep it and reimburse me or try to remove the PVC. Whatever. I was kind of surprised it got graded and I thought PCGS should know. I was open-minded about how things might turn out.
PCGS rec'd it Oct 22 and I just got it back. I guess submissions like these get the back burner.
I have two questions:
1) What do you think of the new vs. old? I've formed my opinion already but I'm curious what others think.
2) What solution do you think PCGS used? Just acetone or something more (and what)?
Just for the record, I am not unhappy with PCGS over this. We can debate the coin's new appearance but there's no question that it is better off without the damaging PVC.
Lance.
BEFORE
AFTER
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
0
Comments
I would have thought a good soaking in acetone would have resolved the PVC, but
this coin has had a little more treatment than just an acetone soak.
I bet that PCGS would not slab this coin now if it were received raw.
I am sure many will not agree with my opinion but I think the coin should be in a gennie holder now. The coin looked pretty bad in the before image with the pvc but it looks just as bad in the new image without the pcv. Honestly looking at that coin it appears to have been cleaned, retoned, and now cleaned again. It reminds me of so many white coins I see, very lack lustre and just an over all blah coin. This is just my opinion though.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
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Ken
<< <i>It was dipped in something more than acetone. Acetone would of just removed the green and left the toning in place. >>
It may have been dipped prior to being stored in a PVC flip.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't see the harsh cleaning, though. What have we got here, and AU50, 55, something like that? It's a tiny coin ... the friction lines are just that, pocket wear, no big deal.
It's an unnaturally bright coin now, not necessarily my cup of tea, but it had problems before that would get worse with time, so it seems like it was the right move.
<< <i>I think the coin now looks harshly cleaned.
I would have thought a good soaking in acetone would have resolved the PVC, but
this coin has had a little more treatment than just an acetone soak.
I bet that PCGS would not slab this coin now if it were received raw. >>
I'm going to agree with you for the most part. I wouldn't say harshly cleaned since there seems to be at least some luster without evidence such as many hairlines, but I would definitely say more than an acetone soak happened. I too would like to see what this would grade if sent in raw. I'll toss $5 for a resubmission if others want to ante up too
Edit to add: As for the OPs question, I would have liked the first image minus the PVC. The toning on the obverse gave it some life IMO.
Not to talk bad about your coin Lance, the second set of pics shows a lifeless coin the look that you
commonly see in junk box coins.
Look at the III for example. There is that soap and water cleaning look
where there is no difference in contrast between the design and the field.
Everything kind of blends together with no pop. Nothing behind the stripes for example.
The dark spots left on the coin are probably permanent damage to the coin or the cleaning would have
removed them along with everything else taken from the coins skin.
Sorry but I think this one would have been much better with just an acetone soak and not
whatever was done to it.
I am guessing when the pvc was removed with acetone there might have been some
unnatural looking spots.
Hence the reason it was dipped in something else to remove the toning.
This was probably the best that could have been done given the circumstances.
Are you happy with it?
The coin is too white for my tastes, but I would not cull it.
The photo must be 25x larger than the real coin, so the small amount of friction that shows is indeed very slight. I think the coin would be fair game in the AU range. I hope like heck they did not MS it.
My opinions, FWIW:
- PCGS used more than just acetone; I'm surprised
- if submitted raw today it would "genuine" (so how can PCGS slab it now in good conscience?)
- it doesn't look "harshly cleaned", simply dipped white and bland like tens of thousands of other silver coins
- some luster is present but it otherwise feels pretty flat and lifeless
- I liked the color and luster before but I hate PVC and verdigris more (sorry about the "before" photos; I have a better set-up today)
- yes, it is an AU55 and circulation marks are exaggerated by the large photos
And finally,
- I am not unhappy with it; I think my grandfather's trime was cleaned worse
Lance.
<< <i>I don't care what was done to this PCGS coin. What I do know, is that PCGS owes you a buyout on this coin. They slabbed a coin with active PVC, and gave you back a coin that is ugly. Make PCGS pay you a decent price for the coin. >>
That's a very good argument.
Lance.
thumbing or putty or any foreign substance on a coin. The coin not only looks great after being
fixed, but the deterioration has been halted. 2 wins no losses.
as you said, acetone is not a cure all which gets the job done every time in a snap. there are times when it simply doesn't work or requires quite a bit of time to remove contamination which has adhered to the coin surface. when PVC turns green like this it generally means it's attached itself to the coin and can be difficult if not impossible to remove without leaving a noticeable trace behind. it isn't realistic to expect to be able to only remove the PVC in a specific area like this without also "conserving" the entire coin surface, both sides.
also, PVC doesn't always manifest itself as the green slime pictured here. i have seen it laying on a coin's surface as an almost clear sheen and as a white, hard, paste looking film which i haven't been able to affect with acetone. i'd sure like to have a copy of the formulations used by NCS and by PCGS when they decide to conserve, if in fact PCGS does their own work.
<< <i>My opinions, FWIW:
- if submitted raw today it would "genuine" (so how can PCGS slab it now in good conscience?)
Lance. >>
Why do you belive it would be graded as genuine now? Pvc damage?
PVC damage, lamination and counterfiet are reasons why a coin WON'T end up in a holder. i believe a coin with active PVC would come back in the old BB.
------------Q: What submission types and types of coins are eligible for Genuine service?
A: The revised Genuine service will apply to all types of submissions as well as service levels. Coins that have been counterfeited or have peeling lamination or active PVC cannot be holdered under the Genuine service.
<< <i>PVC damage, lamination and counterfiet are reasons why a coin WON'T end up in a holder. >>
Coins with PVC damage would holder if the PVC was removed and no longer active.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
According to the above, active PCGS gets BB'd, but dormant PVC gets holdered genuine.
2nd question -- can PVC be removed such that PCGS would holder it with a grade?
nice to know future damage is halted
<< <i>This was an interesting thread, and my first question is this -- PCGS would know whether PVC is active or not?
According to the above, active PCGS gets BB'd, but dormant PVC gets holdered genuine.
2nd question -- can PVC be removed such that PCGS would holder it with a grade? >>
1) BB is the same as gennie. Dormant PVC that isn't too distracting especially on a bigger coin would probably still get slabbed by PCGS as problem free. I'm not an expert on PVC but I think you can tell active vs dormant based on the color.
2) If it's still fresh, it can be removed with acetone
Having said this, I have quite a few damaged coins that were gifts from family and friends. None are too valuable but they all hold a sentimental value to some degree and I'm able to overlook the imperfections because of this. I could have them conserved, but with the idea that they would remain in my collection as special coins with personal value, and not to be resold. Of course, someday they could very well end up in somebody else's collection, but that would no longer be within my control as I will be in a state of total enviromental damage.
I also would like to state that I am in no way am insinuating that the OP had any intention of misrepresenting this coin down the line. It had some very chronic issues, he chose to save it and that is commendable. If I had to choose, I would go with the conserved version.
I do not believe PCGS would now grade this coin, thus the coin in their holder has been
devalued not repaired. I would contact PCGS by phone and hopefully be made whole
for this issue.
Good luck,
Jim
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Lance.
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<< <i>I like the after pic 10x better than the before pic. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I like the after pic 10x better than the before pic. >>
I agree with these two, not to state the obvious but you are lucky you bought the coin in PCGS plastic and PCGS did an admiral job getting the coin back into a collectible state. While I agree the coin doesn't have the look that I would consider ideal if I were buying a type piece it is unrealistic to buy a POS and expect PCGS to turn it into a gem. IMO you got more then you paid for and PCGS deserves a pat on the back and not the condemnation some are calling for.