Why do coin supply dealers continue to sell PVC Soft Flips?
Connecticoin
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I think it is pretty well established that these are bad for coins, even if coins are stored in them "temporarily" (a proof or MS coin can haze in a short period of time in these). It would be nice if some of these supply dealers took a stand and stopped selling them.
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Comments
<< <i>I have wondered this myself. Why are they even made anymore? >>
Good point. Perhaps the supply manufacturers should take a stand as well.
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<< <i>Almost every raw coin or token I buy off eBay arrives in a PVC flip. I guess its a way of the seller saving 5 cents. >>
Actually, they may not know or be paying attention.....if I am not careful, that is precisely what the local B&Ms sell when asking for flips
I had bought a few before I knew better.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Almost every raw coin or token I buy off eBay arrives in a PVC flip. I guess its a way of the seller saving 5 cents. >>
No kidding. I went through about 4 gallons of acetone last year. Even if the coin looks "OK", if it has been in a soft flip, it gets a long soak in acetone.
<< <i>Not to defend the use of PVC soft flips, but they are less likely to hairline proof coins. >>
The PVC haze is NOT a good trade-off.
So is it possible that all of you guys who think every soft flip you see is PVC are wrong? Just asking.
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>Not to defend the use of PVC soft flips, but they are less likely to hairline proof coins. >>
The PVC haze is NOT a good trade-off. >>
Not for long-term storage, of course, but if you need to store a proof coin temporarily (shipping to someone, submitting for grading) I think it's a better choice than a stiff non-PVC flip.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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<< <i>Coin supply dealers that continue to sell supplies that they know are dangerous to coins are just plain greedy.
That's ridiculous.
Business is business. If customers want something, supply it to them. Take away something that customers like, and you may lose those customers. For some people this hobby isn't a hobby, it's a livelihood.
don't know the difference between PVC and Mylar flips?
If customers buy them, someone will always be there to sell them.
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In fairness, I don't think you can blame all of the haze on proof or MS coins on PVC flips. If this was the case,
Acetone would remove it. Plasticizer damage to coins depends mainly on temperature to migrate from the
PVC to the surface ( and thus the coin) then Humidity comes into effect as it does on other corrosion reactions,
and of course then the environmental gases. Mylar or hard plastic is necessary for people like me who doesn't check each coin
every week or even month, heck, sometimes it may be years. Just putting a coin into a new PVC flip doesn't
automatically contaminate it. If you put it into an old Ansco vinyl coin book that has been in your hot garage for 10 years
might however. Acetone is inexpensive. IMO.
Jim
<< <i>My local B&M sells soft flips called "Safe Flips" that say "PVC free". I tend to believe what I read on wrappers in this very heavily regulated time we're in. There is the possibility that they made a tiny change in chemistry and instead of PVC they have PWC which is still bad for coins but I would probably have heard of that.
So is it possible that all of you guys who think every soft flip you see is PVC are wrong? Just asking.
--Jerry >>
PWC poly tungstyl chloride? poly witchcraft chloride?
<< <i>In fairness, I don't think you can blame all of the haze on proof or MS coins on PVC flips. If this was the case,
Acetone would remove it. Plasticizer damage to coins depends mainly on temperature to migrate from the
PVC to the surface ( and thus the coin) then Humidity comes into effect as it does on other corrosion reactions,
and of course then the environmental gases. Mylar or hard plastic is necessary for people like me who doesn't check each coin
every week or even month, heck, sometimes it may be years. Just putting a coin into a new PVC flip doesn't
automatically contaminate it. If you put it into an old Ansco vinyl coin book that has been in your hot garage for 10 years
might however. Acetone is inexpensive. IMO.
Jim >>
The haze is probably silver chloride which can't be removed with acetone. All acetone removes is the DEHP plasticizer and whatever is in it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Not to defend the use of PVC soft flips, but they are less likely to hairline proof coins. >>
The PVC haze is NOT a good trade-off. >>
Not for long-term storage, of course, but if you need to store a proof coin temporarily (shipping to someone, submitting for grading) I think it's a better choice than a stiff non-PVC flip. >>
Wrong. Proof (and MS) coins have been known to haze in the short amount of time they are stored in a PVC flip for grading (see coin above). These are the proof coins that "turn in the holder".
<< <i>The soft vinyl flips sold in the past 15 years or so are stabillized and/or low plasticizer not particularly harmful to coins. The offending flips were greasy, smelled like a new shower curtain, and displayed a rainbow like an oil slick when held to the light. I am not aware of any suppliers selling these types of flips today. >>
If that is true, then how come only the so-called "hard" flips are the only ones advertised as PVC free? ANY flip with PVC, no matter how well it is "stabilized" is probably a risk of damage to coins -- especially proof and MS coins. However, if one wants to take that risk, then so be it -- I would think that those who want to do "good" for the hobby (like those trying to get rid of coin doctors and boilerroom scammers) would want to rid the hobby of these.
<< <i>When you have to handle lots of coins, PVC flips are much easier to use. Yes, if you have one coin, it doesn't make a difference. But little amounts of time really start to add up with volume, and soft flips are easier to work with. Dealers want coins to come in and go out--speed is the name of the game. >>
Then use the 2.5 x 2.5 SafeFlips -- they are large enough such that the risk of damage is pretty low -- better than the risk of PVC haze. Or just use the mylar 2x2s.
<< <i>
If that is true, then how come only the so-called "hard" flips are the only ones advertised as PVC free? ANY flip with PVC, no matter how well it is "stabilized" is probably a risk of damage to coins -- especially proof and MS coins. However, if one wants to take that risk, then so be it -- I would think that those who want to do "good" for the hobby (like those trying to get rid of coin doctors and boilerroom scammers) would want to rid the hobby of these. >>
You're arguing that we should throw out anything soft because some old soft ones damaged coins. You say it is "probably a risk of damage". As a scientist, I don't like emotional responses like this that sweep broadly and throw out a lot non-offenders. Like I said, there are soft flips advertised as PVC free and guaranteed not to harm coins. If someone had evidence that these flips are damaging coins then I would listen but until then, this sounds like a witch hunt.
--Jerry
edit: BTW, I use almost no flips. Almost all of my submissions are in tubes or capsules.
<< <i> Like I said, there are soft flips advertised as PVC free and guaranteed not to harm coins. . >>
I missed that. I am not aware of any "soft flips" advertised as PVC free -- do you know who sells them? If they are indeed PVC free then that is different -- my point was if there was ANY PVC in a flip, even if "stabilized", I would not risk using them.
It's not just using it IMHO, it's disclosure as to exactly what's going on...
<< <i>I think I received a couple coins from a dealer where the flip was marked as "temp storage only, please remove and replace with a proper safe-storage holder" type sticker, I thought that was a perfect compromise. I didn't detect rainbows or "shower curtain" smell so I wasn't sure if it was PVC free or not. The sticker removed any doubt.
It's not just using it IMHO, it's disclosure as to exactly what's going on... >>
The thing is, you don't know how long the coin has been sitting in the dealer's inventory -- and after you transfer to "permanent" storage, the coin could still "turn". If the coin looks OK and I liked it, I would soak it in acetone before storing it permanently. But why use the darn things in the first place?
First, they hold up for a short period of time. The safety flips are brittle and break up fairly easily. That makes the safety flip unsuitable for dealer use where customers repeatedly handle the flips to look at the coins.
Second, aucttion houses and some use sealed flips that hold the coins until they are cut open. These sealed flips work with a machine that melts the plastic at the top to hold the coin. I don't think that this sort of operation can be done with safety flips.
<< <i>Two factors.
First, they hold up for a short period of time. >>
If that were the case, then the grading services would let you use them again. They don't, because the long term effect on the coin from even a short period of time in a PVC flip may cause the coin to turn in the holder.
<< <i>
<< <i> Like I said, there are soft flips advertised as PVC free and guaranteed not to harm coins. . >>
I missed that. I am not aware of any "soft flips" advertised as PVC free -- do you know who sells them? If they are indeed PVC free then that is different -- my point was if there was ANY PVC in a flip, even if "stabilized", I would not risk using them. >>
I'll check on them next time I go to the B&M...
<< <i>
<< <i>Two factors.
First, they hold up for a short period of time. >>
If that were the case, then the grading services would let you use them again. They don't, because the long term effect on the coin from even a short period of time in a PVC flip may cause the coin to turn in the holder. >>
They may be just failing conservative because:
1. They can't tell by looking if you've bought a good modern softflip or if you have an old "softflip of death".
2. They just want to be overly careful since they are in the business of museum quality preservation.
And if your post had started out "Why don't we all be super careful and don't use any flip that isn't mylar?" then I wouldn't have challenged it but you questioned the integrity of those selling modern soft flips and I'm not sure that is warranted.
--Jerry
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>PH, do you buy quantities? If so, do you mind sharing where you get them? >>
I haven't used them since the late 1980's when I got all my coins slabbed but I have a quantity left over that I use occasionally for inexpensive coins. Do a google search on saflips and you'll find several mail order coin supply companies that sell them. If I remember correctly, the 2X2's come in packs of 50 but since they charge for shipping it makes sense to order several packs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PVC flips (with and without the softeners) are still sold for the same reason that alcohol, cigarettes, etc. are still sold. There is still a vibrant demand from them. We try to educate buyers so they are at least making an informed decision.
WH
<< <i>I think we have the best price on Saflips, the only flip on the market that contains no vinyl.
PVC flips (with and without the softeners) are still sold for the same reason that alcohol, cigarettes, etc. are still sold. There is still a vibrant demand from them. We try to educate buyers so they are at least making an informed decision.
WH >>
Well there you have it -- from the horse's mouth. "Vibrant" demand, wow. I am glad you try to educate -- at least they are being warned.
I see where you are coming from, but can you at least get rid of the REALLY soft ones?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire