1803 Draped Bust Large Cent -- Opinions Wanted

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 12:57PM

I bid and won a 1803 Draped Bust Large Cent on Ebay yesterday. It's the very first piece of old copper that I've ever purchased (or even really looked at). I really wanted the 1803 date, and one just happened to be available.

There was a slightly larger photo available on Ebay during the time of the auction, but this is all that I can reference now:

From that photo (with no experience grading this series) I estimated the grade to be about VF-25. I asked the seller to e-mail me a larger photo, and this is what I received:

With the larger photo I can see more detail, but also what appears to be corrosion on the coin. Is corrosion common on lower grade coins in this series?

Based on what you can see in these photos, to those who collect older copper large cents (or to anyone who wants to take a stab at this), does this coin merit a VF-25 grade? Or higher/lower? Would the corrosion knock it down a grade or several grades to a net lower grade?

If so, what would you estimate the "net" grade to be? Thanks!

coolest · January 18, 2010 1:10PM

Not my series but, there seems to be more detail than I would expect in the hair?

Clean fields light-moderate corrosion

nankraut · January 18, 2010 1:29PM

I hope I'm wrong, but from the photo, it looks like it's corroded, has quite extensive PVC, and has been re-tooled on the obverse. I just won't buy these old coins unless they're in a PCGS, NGC, ANACS holder.

aficoinado · January 18, 2010 1:34PM

<< I hope I'm wrong, but from the photo, it looks like it's corroded, has quite extensive PVC, and has been re-tooled on the obverse. I just won't buy these old coins unless they're in a PCGS, NGC, ANACS holder. >>

I don't think its tooled. The lines in the hair have a natural look, although well defined. VF25 seems about right, maybe VF20. I don't there is anything wrong with the coin if you enjoy but I wouldn't have paid VF25 money for it. And you most likely will not get strong money for it when it is time to sell. Looks like a decent, affordable example.

commoncents05 · January 18, 2010 1:36PM

<< I hope I'm wrong, but from the photo, it looks like it's corroded, has quite extensive PVC, and has been re-tooled on the obverse. I just won't buy these old coins unless they're in a PCGS, NGC, ANACS holder. >>

I will agree with the corrosion, but I see no evidence of tooling.

-Paul

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 1:46PM

Thanks! The more opinions, the better! Keep 'em coming! It's the only way I can learn grading for this series.

As far as valuation, these are the VF-25/VF-20 prices I pulled from Heritage Auctions:

Numismedia Retail: $489/408
Numismedia Wholesale: $408/340
Numismedia NGC: $372/310
Numismedia PCGS: $374/310
PCGS: $475/375

The Red Book doesn't list VF-25, but VF-20 = $350. I paid $205 shipped for the coin. As long as it's genuine and hasn't been retooled, is that a reasonable price, given the corrosion? Thanks!

ADJ2 · January 18, 2010 1:47PM

Looks like a large date and large fraction, with the corrosion fine12 maybe very fine 20.

notwilight · January 18, 2010 1:47PM

It's in an old PCI holder and I would expect that the problems aren't as bad as they look in the is photo. the colors look exaggerated and the contrast is probably turned up too. It will probably look better in hand. But it will never be smooth and chocolatey. --Jerry

ChrisRx · January 18, 2010 1:50PM

Treat that coin to some acetone immediately!

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 1:55PM

<< It's in an old PCI holder and I would expect that the problems aren't as bad as they look in the is photo. the colors look exaggerated and the contrast is probably turned up too. It will probably look better in hand. But it will never be smooth and chocolatey. --Jerry >>

The seller just e-mailed me another photo. I've never seen a holder like this before. Is it a PCI holder in the photo? Thanks!

The corrosion does seem a little less obvious in this photo. (I suppose it would be even less obvious if viewed at life-size, rather than enlarged)

Grade opinions so far range from F-12 to VF-25... That's a pretty wide range! What is it?

<< Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>

Excuse my lack of experience, but what would that do? Thanks!

MMMCOINSMMM · January 18, 2010 1:59PM

Very nice,alot of those old green PCI holders have a tendency of crossing over at the same grade,there is a quite bit of green corr material on it tho.so getting the same grade might bot be on this one.nice find

notwilight · January 18, 2010 2:00PM

<< Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>

Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend?

notwilight · January 18, 2010 2:01PM

As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry

Barry · January 18, 2010 2:02PM

That's an old PCI holder. Those are usually accurate or sometimes undergraded.

ChrisRx · January 18, 2010 2:06PM

<< 

<< Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>

Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>

No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself.

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 2:16PM

<< As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>

Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks!

notwilight · January 18, 2010 2:32PM

<< 

<< 

<< Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>

Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>

No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself. >>

OHhhhh. It is a common misconception that all that is green is PVC. PVC damage is usually (but not always) worst on the high spots that touch the PVC. Any copper (or coin with copper in it) can turn green if in prolonged contact with water, salt, or corrosive environment. Since the green you see on this coin is in the crevices, it is almost certainly verdigris. --Jerry

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 2:34PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>

Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>

No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself. >>

OHhhhh. It is a common misconception that all that is green is PVC. PVC damage is usually (but not always) worst on the high spots that touch the PVC. Any copper (or coin with copper in it) can turn green if in prolonged contact with water, salt, or corrosive environment. Since the green you see on this coin is in the crevices, it is almost certainly verdigris. --Jerry >>

Thanks Jerry--I can't resist, is there treatment for verdigris?

aficoinado · January 18, 2010 2:36PM

<< 

<< As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>

Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>

It'll come back in a Genuine holder.

notwilight · January 18, 2010 2:43PM

<< 

<< As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>

Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>

Well, you'd have to break it out of it's current holder to acetone it. Acetone won't hurt it but takes all of the oils out of the surface leaving a coin very dry. In my post above I explained why I think this is not PVC damage so a verdigris treatment such as verdigone might be a better choice, however, when you get the coin you will likely see much less green and purple on the surface. It has been in it's current holder at least 10 years so it is very likely there is no active degradation occurring so many would say leave it alone.

As for slabbing at PCGS, I haven't tried to slab or buy many coins in this grade. My avatar is this grade and I'll put a quick photo of it here to show the difference in smooth surfaces without verdigris or porosity...note your coin has more detail showing. My coin is in a PCGS VF25 OGH...

I usually prefer coins with surfaces such as these and so I can't really say if your coin will slab at PCGS or not. You can, however, be happy with all the detail you have on a VF25 coin. I have a 1796 liberty cap cent that has some porosity but lots of detail and I really like it, especially for the price I got it for in it's NCS holder. --Jerry

notwilight · January 18, 2010 2:47PM

Here is a thread on verdigone. I have never used it but like what I've read about it. I just don't have time for much conservation but I have a couple of low grade coins coming in with some verdigris so I'll give it a try soon.

Veridgone discussion.

cameron12x · January 18, 2010 2:49PM

That's a very nice coin you have there, Jerry. I wish mine was problem free, but it's my first early copper and a learning experience.

I wonder if the PCI folks net graded it down to VF-25 due to the issues?

Thanks again for all of your help.

abitofthisabitofthat · January 18, 2010 9:21PM

<< 

<< As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>

Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>

PCGS will not grade it. It has very nice details and can be enjoyed raw.

Walkerguy21D · January 18, 2010 9:43PM

I would suggest a lengthy soak in virgin olive oil or a coating of Blue Ribbon (keeping in on for multiple days - if you can find any!), rather than acetone. The first two will not hurt the coin at all - and I recommend it even if you try the acetone first. No harm in using the acetone, I just don't think it would do much with this large cent.
I do not have experience with Verdigone.

shorecoll · January 19, 2010 12:07AM

I agree with walkerguy on the oil. Net grading and pricing is all over the map on large cents, depending on how it looks in hand. If it's not a rare Sheldon variety, a specialist dealer would likely price it 25%-50% of list, a regular dealer would price it at list and sell it for maybe list-25%. IMHO.

rays · January 19, 2010 12:13AM

Here is an 1803 in a PCGS VF 20 holder, no problems with light brown color and smooth surfaces. I paid more than $200 for it.

cameron12x · January 19, 2010 12:15AM

That's a very nice looking problem-free coin... thanks for sharing. Do you have a photo of the reverse?

rays · January 19, 2010 12:18AM

<< That's a very nice looking problem-free coin... thanks for sharing. Do you have a photo of the reverse? >>

cameron12x · January 19, 2010 1:16AM

Very nice... definitely better than mine.

grip · January 19, 2010 1:32AM

I would just leave it and enjoy the coin for what it is.It dont look all
that bad.

joecopper · January 19, 2010 2:30AM

from the pic I would grade it VF20, net F12 due to the corrosion.

BillJones · January 19, 2010 4:10AM

A soak in olive oil would probably improve the appearance of the piece, but it would not allow the coin to get into a graded slab. The piece is porous, and it has environmental damage. I agree with the sharpness grade of VF and net grade of Fine.

Mercury10c · January 19, 2010 8:52AM

I'd crack it out, acetone it, Coin Care it, stick it in a 2x2 Kraft envelope with a cotton liner, then just
enjoy it raw. Here's my 1803 before doing all that stuff (that reddish tinge has faded quite a bit).
Cracked out of a PCGS VF-30 holder.

Mercury10c · January 19, 2010 9:00AM

<< Here is an 1803 in a PCGS VF 20 holder, no problems with light brown color and smooth surfaces. I paid more than $200 for it.

>>

Nice coin. S-255, state B.

cameron12x · January 19, 2010 10:05AM

Thanks for everyone's input and insight... I'll report back once I have the coin in hand.

Cheers all,
Jeff

JMW · January 19, 2010 10:14AM

Nice coin, leave it as is. If you ever go to a show and Ed Hipps is around ask his opinion, that guy knows copper.

1798CentCollector · January 19, 2010 12:28PM

Congratulations on purchasing your first early date. It's a Sheldon S-258, rarity 1. The coin is definitely moderately evenly corroded. From observation, I'd EAC grade the coin sharpness VF20 net VG 10 to F12, for the surface problems. Copper quotes by Robinson values an F12 in Average minus at $125. You might crack it out and brush with some Blue Ribbon.

cameron12x · January 21, 2010 1:45AM

Well, my first-ever early copper arrived during lunch today:

I must say that it looks much better in hand than this photo depicts. The corrosion really isn't easily visible to the naked eye.

I'll try to post my own photo of it over the weekend...

metalmeister · January 21, 2010 3:13AM

IMHO coin looks dug, BUT still has plenty of detail.

Bobk · January 21, 2010 3:28AM

cameron. I like your coin. Nice find. You did good.

1803 Draped Bust Large Cent -- Opinions Wanted

Comments

Leave a Comment