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1803 Draped Bust Large Cent -- Opinions Wanted
cameron12x
Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
I bid and won a 1803 Draped Bust Large Cent on Ebay yesterday. It's the very first piece of old copper that I've ever purchased (or even really looked at). I really wanted the 1803 date, and one just happened to be available.
There was a slightly larger photo available on Ebay during the time of the auction, but this is all that I can reference now:
From that photo (with no experience grading this series) I estimated the grade to be about VF-25. I asked the seller to e-mail me a larger photo, and this is what I received:
With the larger photo I can see more detail, but also what appears to be corrosion on the coin. Is corrosion common on lower grade coins in this series?
Based on what you can see in these photos, to those who collect older copper large cents (or to anyone who wants to take a stab at this), does this coin merit a VF-25 grade? Or higher/lower? Would the corrosion knock it down a grade or several grades to a net lower grade?
If so, what would you estimate the "net" grade to be? Thanks!
There was a slightly larger photo available on Ebay during the time of the auction, but this is all that I can reference now:
From that photo (with no experience grading this series) I estimated the grade to be about VF-25. I asked the seller to e-mail me a larger photo, and this is what I received:
With the larger photo I can see more detail, but also what appears to be corrosion on the coin. Is corrosion common on lower grade coins in this series?
Based on what you can see in these photos, to those who collect older copper large cents (or to anyone who wants to take a stab at this), does this coin merit a VF-25 grade? Or higher/lower? Would the corrosion knock it down a grade or several grades to a net lower grade?
If so, what would you estimate the "net" grade to be? Thanks!
0
Comments
Clean fields light-moderate corrosion
<< <i>I hope I'm wrong, but from the photo, it looks like it's corroded, has quite extensive PVC, and has been re-tooled on the obverse. I just won't buy these old coins unless they're in a PCGS, NGC, ANACS holder. >>
I don't think its tooled. The lines in the hair have a natural look, although well defined. VF25 seems about right, maybe VF20. I don't there is anything wrong with the coin if you enjoy but I wouldn't have paid VF25 money for it. And you most likely will not get strong money for it when it is time to sell. Looks like a decent, affordable example.
<< <i>I hope I'm wrong, but from the photo, it looks like it's corroded, has quite extensive PVC, and has been re-tooled on the obverse. I just won't buy these old coins unless they're in a PCGS, NGC, ANACS holder. >>
I will agree with the corrosion, but I see no evidence of tooling.
-Paul
As far as valuation, these are the VF-25/VF-20 prices I pulled from Heritage Auctions:
Numismedia Retail: $489/408
Numismedia Wholesale: $408/340
Numismedia NGC: $372/310
Numismedia PCGS: $374/310
PCGS: $475/375
The Red Book doesn't list VF-25, but VF-20 = $350. I paid $205 shipped for the coin. As long as it's genuine and hasn't been retooled, is that a reasonable price, given the corrosion? Thanks!
<< <i>It's in an old PCI holder and I would expect that the problems aren't as bad as they look in the is photo. the colors look exaggerated and the contrast is probably turned up too. It will probably look better in hand. But it will never be smooth and chocolatey. --Jerry >>
The seller just e-mailed me another photo. I've never seen a holder like this before. Is it a PCI holder in the photo? Thanks!
The corrosion does seem a little less obvious in this photo. (I suppose it would be even less obvious if viewed at life-size, rather than enlarged)
Grade opinions so far range from F-12 to VF-25... That's a pretty wide range! What is it?
<< <i>Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>
Excuse my lack of experience, but what would that do? Thanks!
<< <i>Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>
Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend?
<< <i>
<< <i>Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>
Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>
No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself.
<< <i>As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>
Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>
Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>
No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself. >>
OHhhhh. It is a common misconception that all that is green is PVC. PVC damage is usually (but not always) worst on the high spots that touch the PVC. Any copper (or coin with copper in it) can turn green if in prolonged contact with water, salt, or corrosive environment. Since the green you see on this coin is in the crevices, it is almost certainly verdigris. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Treat that coin to some acetone immediately! >>
Do you have experience using the treatment you recommend? >>
No but others have when it comes to PVC. Luckily I have never had a coin with PVC on it to try myself. >>
OHhhhh. It is a common misconception that all that is green is PVC. PVC damage is usually (but not always) worst on the high spots that touch the PVC. Any copper (or coin with copper in it) can turn green if in prolonged contact with water, salt, or corrosive environment. Since the green you see on this coin is in the crevices, it is almost certainly verdigris. --Jerry >>
Thanks Jerry--I can't resist, is there treatment for verdigris?
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>
Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>
It'll come back in a Genuine holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>
Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>
Well, you'd have to break it out of it's current holder to acetone it. Acetone won't hurt it but takes all of the oils out of the surface leaving a coin very dry. In my post above I explained why I think this is not PVC damage so a verdigris treatment such as verdigone might be a better choice, however, when you get the coin you will likely see much less green and purple on the surface. It has been in it's current holder at least 10 years so it is very likely there is no active degradation occurring so many would say leave it alone.
As for slabbing at PCGS, I haven't tried to slab or buy many coins in this grade. My avatar is this grade and I'll put a quick photo of it here to show the difference in smooth surfaces without verdigris or porosity...note your coin has more detail showing. My coin is in a PCGS VF25 OGH...
I usually prefer coins with surfaces such as these and so I can't really say if your coin will slab at PCGS or not. You can, however, be happy with all the detail you have on a VF25 coin. I have a 1796 liberty cap cent that has some porosity but lots of detail and I really like it, especially for the price I got it for in it's NCS holder. --Jerry
Veridgone discussion.
That's a very nice coin you have there, Jerry. I wish mine was problem free, but it's my first early copper and a learning experience.
I wonder if the PCI folks net graded it down to VF-25 due to the issues?
Thanks again for all of your help.
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the technical grade I'd say 25 to 30--maybe even 35. It may be net graded for rough surfaces/verdegris. --Jerry >>
Thanks for your insight, Jerry! Would dipping it in acetone negatively affect it's chances of being graded? Do you think I should submit to PCGS? Thanks! >>
PCGS will not grade it. It has very nice details and can be enjoyed raw.
merse
I do not have experience with Verdigone.
<< <i>That's a very nice looking problem-free coin... thanks for sharing. Do you have a photo of the reverse? >>
that bad.
enjoy it raw. Here's my 1803 before doing all that stuff (that reddish tinge has faded quite a bit).
Cracked out of a PCGS VF-30 holder.
<< <i>Here is an 1803 in a PCGS VF 20 holder, no problems with light brown color and smooth surfaces. I paid more than $200 for it.
>>
Nice coin. S-255, state B.
Cheers all,
Jeff
I must say that it looks much better in hand than this photo depicts. The corrosion really isn't easily visible to the naked eye.
I'll try to post my own photo of it over the weekend...
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