could someone tell me what to look for? I stare about both the real and the fake and I can't tell the difference. Good thing I spend like 20-30 bucks on coins so a fake wouldn't really hurt me BUT I would like to learn!
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They are getting better. The little circles look pretty good. The giveaway on the slab for me are the sharp corners on the raised plastic "interlocking" corner devices. On the real slab they are more rounded; on the fake they are sharper. Put a fake one and a real one together and they won't quite fit together like two real slabs would. The font also isn't quite right...
1889-CC are normally well struck, the weakness over the ear and breast was the first flag for me. The CC's are wrong and the coin lacks overall sharpness.
I got to tell you, this is an outrage. The OP should immediately call PCGS, who I would assume has a contact with the FBI, and supply all the information he has with regards to the person from whom he purchased this coin. With the exception of a slight variance in the font, the PCGS label is very good, and I'd bet the vast majority of collectors would be unable to recognize the fact the slab and coin are counterfeit. Not to sound over dramatic, but this puts the hobby in great danger, in my opinion. Numismatticadotcom, I implore you to not delay in contacting PCGS about this situation.
This is just one incident. Imagine the other ten-thousand that go rite into the vaults of the purchaser/coin collector. These fakes will be seen for decades to come. Being an informed Numismatist is the only way to fight these people.
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
How gullible do you have to be? I was able to pull up an auction pic of the real coin assigned to that cert number in 2 minutes. Seriously, at that price point, there really is no excuse for getting duped ... except for, of course, the fact that greed often substitutes itself for common sense
<< <i>Pretty scary as Fletcher says the barcodes match. For a novice or an investor this would have been a very bad buy.
We had agreed at a too the price of $16,000
PCGS price guide price: $29,500
Even as a dealer buying, that seems like a big price difference? or is the guide a bit high on these? >>
At that level, the PCGS Price Guide is pretty much irrelevant. This coin, in this grade, trades fairly regularly. A quick Heritage search on the phrase "1889-CC $1 MS62 PCGS" reveals 5 transactions since January 2007, all between $25,300 & $26,450. (A 6th sold yesterday, again for $25,300.)
The value of this coin is nothing if not predictable. $16K would have been a ridiculous rip, IMO. If it seems too good to be true ...
Looks like an altered 89-O. CC Morgans are never that poorly struck.
I'd have thought PCGS would have announced something at FUN about the counterfeiting issue. A couple things would go far to get ahead of this (for now):
1. Quick 'n' dirty pictures for all coins with a declared value above $x available online free. These can even be assembly line scans after slabbing so that it can be done quickly. 2. New holder design using a. the cool edge-viewing gasket shown at FUN at the table nearly across from PCGS. b. a custom-designed, yet attractive and readable, font on the labels that is easily distinguishable from those readily available c. other security devices in the label 3. Aggressive reholder campaign that would generate volume and possibly keep reholder prices low.
MS62 coin is 15,700 NGC and $16,300.00 for PCGS on the ask in there... high end coins having a slightly softening market I priced accordingly in my opinion for the situation
Numismattica.com Coins, Bullion, Tokens, Paper Currency, Postcards, Ephemera, everything Numismatic............
The photograph each coin solution that people want to fall in love with is useless unless:
1. The photographs are much better than NGCs. 2. The agressive reholder program you talk about is successful. 3. It is affordable.
1 and 3 aren't really compatible and I'm afraid that no matter how agressive you go with 2, there will always be old holders out there to counterfeit. I'm not planning to get my OGHs reholdered unless PCGS would come out with a decree that after 1/1/12 all old holders will no longer be guaranteed or something similar.
Still, it seems silly to reholder into another holder that can be forged. I am not aware of anthing that can't be forged....a second encoded number on the slab that isn't visible in photos (RFID?) which has to match the slab number (Kindo like a PIN) make stealing labels off of Heritage more difficult. However, once they had one $20,000 coin in hand they could duplicate it as many times as they wanted and then sell it and buy another one. It would make it harder but not that difficult.
<< <i>How gullible do you have to be? I was able to pull up an auction pic of the real coin assigned to that cert number in 2 minutes. Seriously, at that price point, there really is no excuse for getting duped ... except for, of course, the fact that greed often substitutes itself common sense >>
people here know to check auction house websites from experience posted here.
at least some precautions were taken before hand.
now the person knows.
(although, in my own newbie-ness, I thought PCGS only used 1 barcode per coin number.... is this not the case? this experience certainly calls that into question)
Well, to me it just looks like another boring Morgan Dollar
Seriously though, to someone who doesn't really collect Morgans, but will occasionally buy one to feel part of the crowd, I probably could have been fooled by this and I'm sure many others could have too. Many of you have said it's an obvious fake, and now that I see the photos of the original coin, it is apparent.
I tried to skim through this long thread, but for us rookies in this series, what red flags on the coin or the holder should we look for to spot the fakes. I see the bubbling on the very left side of the obverse, but if the coin was tilted just a bit in the pic that may not be apparent... what else is obviously wrong????
I noticed that as well. Just a VERY slight difference under the grade number '62' . While the font looked off to me (the '5' in the cert # is different than the authentic coin), they ARE getting better. And it didn't come from China. Someone from South Dakota got taken, and is trying to turn his loss into someone elses problem. Slam dunk with Paypal. The seller better hope he finds a buyer with no internet access, next time. Regardless, if these fakes get much better, things could be awfully tough in the near future
As someone who does not buy coins in the 5 figure, it is still troublesome to see how good the fake slabs are becoming. Yes, when you study the pics, the differing nuances are there. I could see where low 4 and 3 figure priced fake coins in these slabs on ebay with distant pics could make a killing. From a business and trust perspective, it could have a devastating effect on the name brand. If I was charged with maintaining the security of the name brand, I would be making all diligent efforts to re-evaluate, re-affirm and possibly completely re-vamp the product. I believe that PCGS is a company that operates from a high integrity standpoint and is/has been aware and has been dealing with this problem. I certainly hope the counterfeiters DO not reach that level of expertise, but I suspect that in time, they will.
Disturbing that the fake slabs are getting that good, even more disturbing nothing is being done about it, at least in a timely matter. One thing for sure the more of this junk floating around the more confidence is lost in the hobby.
I agree with timcoin. Lucky me, I don't really like Morgans that much, or have money to collect 5-figure coins. Personally even if I did have the money, I wouldn't buy that coin. (no offense to OP, it's just not my cuppa.) But I know people do collect them, and my sympathy to OP.
Sorry you got burned, and hopefully you can work it all out with Paypal, and whoever else you need to.
This is just downright scary. The only thing I see to do is to change the fonts on a regular basis, and keep records of date=font. That would be a little extra bookkeeping - but not really. The font could be changed monthly! That would at least curb some of this crazy stuff! That would be very EZ to do! (Not to say that you could not even repeat some of the fonts, but changing them randomly ... or even a special watermark or something similar to what the dollar bills have, special pen to mark it with - or whatever it takes.
<< <i>Seriously though, to someone who doesn't really collect Morgans, but will occasionally buy one to feel part of the crowd, I probably could have been fooled by this and I'm sure many others could have too. >>
IMO, these counterfeits are easily detected but not through photographs! They really need to be examined in hand with a loupe.
In hand, if even a casual collector could not see that this was a counterfeit, then that collector needs to move on to a different hobby since these are obvious. They all appear to have the same "grainy" features caused from the casting process.
Yes, rusted US Mint dies will create the same effect but........... not on the entire surface of the coin.
Here's a small piece of acounterfeit IKE:
Aside from the obvious flaws at the rim, note the grainy texture of the field. That grainy effect is on the entire coin, both fields and devices and appears to be consistent with most Chinese counterfeits.
For a coin as expensive such as an 1889-CC, only in hand observation should occur before finalizing ANY deal.
The slab is secondary and is only used to add to the illusion of reality. Some of these will get by the inexperienced and/or those who think they know what they are doing but in hand, these coins would never fool a knowledgeable collector.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Comments
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mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>What was the full price of the coin.Or was that posted? >>
Oh I am sorry..
We had agreed at a too the price of $16,000.00 for the coin before he had shipped it to me
Coins, Bullion, Tokens, Paper Currency, Postcards, Ephemera, everything Numismatic............
Imagine the other ten-thousand that go rite into the vaults of the purchaser/coin collector.
These fakes will be seen for decades to come.
Being an informed Numismatist is the only way to fight these people.
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>What bubbles are you referring to; and BTW my eyes are just fine. >>
there are quite a few, but the easiest to see are in front of stars 5-7 on the Obv in front of her face.
I see the area that you are referring to, however, given the photo I cannot tell if they are raised or just metal flow or contact marks.
If they are raised the I would agree with your assessment.
We had agreed at a too the price of $16,000
PCGS price guide price: $29,500
Even as a dealer buying, that seems like a big price difference? or is the guide a bit high on these?
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My V Nickel Registry Set - https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874
<< <i>
<< <i>Where did you get this photo? >>
Heritage auction archives
wow.
I began checking the barcodes with what google showed.
the Coin# 7190's I found using google did not match the OP's.... I was about to say "wrong barcodes!"
====> However, this coin has the same barcode as the OP !????!???? ???!???!!!! ?? ?!!
Did pcgs change barcodes?
also, did PCGS change from "$1" to "S$1" at some point????
<< <i>Pretty scary as Fletcher says the barcodes match. For a novice or an investor this would have been a very bad buy.
We had agreed at a too the price of $16,000
PCGS price guide price: $29,500
Even as a dealer buying, that seems like a big price difference? or is the guide a bit high on these? >>
At that level, the PCGS Price Guide is pretty much irrelevant. This coin, in this grade, trades fairly regularly. A quick Heritage search on the phrase "1889-CC $1 MS62 PCGS" reveals 5 transactions since January 2007, all between $25,300 & $26,450. (A 6th sold yesterday, again for $25,300.)
The value of this coin is nothing if not predictable. $16K would have been a ridiculous rip, IMO. If it seems too good to be true ...
I'd have thought PCGS would have announced something at FUN about the counterfeiting issue. A couple things would go far to get ahead of this (for now):
1. Quick 'n' dirty pictures for all coins with a declared value above $x available online free. These can even be assembly line scans after slabbing so that it can be done quickly.
2. New holder design using
a. the cool edge-viewing gasket shown at FUN at the table nearly across from PCGS.
b. a custom-designed, yet attractive and readable, font on the labels that is easily distinguishable from those readily available
c. other security devices in the label
3. Aggressive reholder campaign that would generate volume and possibly keep reholder prices low.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>...
2. New holder design using
a. the cool edge-viewing gasket shown at FUN at the table nearly across from PCGS.
... >>
Whose table was this? Does anyone have more info on this?
MS62 coin is 15,700 NGC and $16,300.00 for PCGS on the ask in there... high end coins having a slightly softening market I priced accordingly in my opinion for the situation
Coins, Bullion, Tokens, Paper Currency, Postcards, Ephemera, everything Numismatic............
and the other info on the label (e.g. "$1" vs. "S$1")
Found using google:
Another using google:
another from google:
googled eliasberg example:
googled on VAMworld: known fake:
on eBay:
Numismattica:
Heritage one Fletcher posted:
1. The photographs are much better than NGCs.
2. The agressive reholder program you talk about is successful.
3. It is affordable.
1 and 3 aren't really compatible and I'm afraid that no matter how agressive you go with 2, there will always be old holders out there to counterfeit. I'm not planning to get my OGHs reholdered unless PCGS would come out with a decree that after 1/1/12 all old holders will no longer be guaranteed or something similar.
Still, it seems silly to reholder into another holder that can be forged. I am not aware of anthing that can't be forged....a second encoded number on the slab that isn't visible in photos (RFID?) which has to match the slab number (Kindo like a PIN) make stealing labels off of Heritage more difficult. However, once they had one $20,000 coin in hand they could duplicate it as many times as they wanted and then sell it and buy another one. It would make it harder but not that difficult.
--Jerry
<< <i>How gullible do you have to be? I was able to pull up an auction pic of the real coin assigned to that cert number in 2 minutes. Seriously, at that price point, there really is no excuse for getting duped ... except for, of course, the fact that greed often substitutes itself common sense
people here know to check auction house websites from experience posted here.
at least some precautions were taken before hand.
now the person knows.
(although, in my own newbie-ness, I thought PCGS only used 1 barcode per coin number.... is this not the case? this experience certainly calls that into question)
<< <i>
<< <i>...
2. New holder design using
a. the cool edge-viewing gasket shown at FUN at the table nearly across from PCGS.
... >>
Whose table was this? Does anyone have more info on this? >>
Keeping in line with forum rules, PM sent.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Seriously though, to someone who doesn't really collect Morgans, but will occasionally buy one to feel part of the crowd, I probably could have been fooled by this and I'm sure many others could have too. Many of you have said it's an obvious fake, and now that I see the photos of the original coin, it is apparent.
I tried to skim through this long thread, but for us rookies in this series, what red flags on the coin or the holder should we look for to spot the fakes. I see the bubbling on the very left side of the obverse, but if the coin was tilted just a bit in the pic that may not be apparent... what else is obviously wrong????
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I noticed that as well. Just a VERY slight difference under the grade number '62' . While the font looked off to me (the '5' in the cert # is different than the authentic coin), they ARE getting better. And it didn't come from China. Someone from South Dakota got taken, and is trying to turn his loss into someone elses problem. Slam dunk with Paypal. The seller better hope he finds a buyer with no internet access, next time. Regardless, if these fakes get much better, things could be awfully tough in the near future
Boom...we win.
Sorry you got burned, and hopefully you can work it all out with Paypal, and whoever else you need to.
This is just downright scary. The only thing I see to do is to change the fonts on a regular basis, and keep records of date=font. That would be a little extra bookkeeping - but not really. The font could be changed monthly! That would at least curb some of this crazy stuff! That would be very EZ to do! (Not to say that you could not even repeat some of the fonts, but changing them randomly ... or even a special watermark or something similar to what the dollar bills have, special pen to mark it with - or whatever it takes.
This world gets crazier every day!
<< <i>Maybe PCGS needs to buy the paper they print the labels on from Crane & Co., watermarks and all. >>
I was thinking along the same lines. The watermark should read: "to counterfeit is death."
know the coins well.
<< <i>Seriously though, to someone who doesn't really collect Morgans, but will occasionally buy one to feel part of the crowd, I probably could have been fooled by this and I'm sure many others could have too. >>
IMO, these counterfeits are easily detected but not through photographs! They really need to be examined in hand with a loupe.
In hand, if even a casual collector could not see that this was a counterfeit, then that collector needs to move on to a different hobby since these are obvious. They all appear to have the same "grainy" features caused from the casting process.
Yes, rusted US Mint dies will create the same effect but........... not on the entire surface of the coin.
Here's a small piece of acounterfeit IKE:
Aside from the obvious flaws at the rim, note the grainy texture of the field. That grainy effect is on the entire coin, both fields and devices and appears to be consistent with most Chinese counterfeits.
For a coin as expensive such as an 1889-CC, only in hand observation should occur before finalizing ANY deal.
The slab is secondary and is only used to add to the illusion of reality. Some of these will get by the inexperienced and/or those who think they know what they are doing but in hand, these coins would never fool a knowledgeable collector.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Do you think coin reproducers post their fake coins here to get an idea of what they need to improve on?. >>
Interesting thought ...