Copper folks....What are your thoughts on this NEN 1881 PR66BN IHC?? A lot going on here!!!!

Goldbully · December 11, 2009 10:49AM

Would this holder today at PCGS?
NT Color?
What splashed on this poor IHC?
66??
Worth $625?
I must admit, it is a very interesting Gem.

Indian Cent 1881 PCGS PR66BN Colorful proof gem. In a green label PCGS holder. Tied for finest graded (pop of 11/0 at PCGS).

Link

fc · December 11, 2009 10:52AM

since it got a BN desig long ago.. maybe it was submitted looking
like that in the first place?

Raybo · December 11, 2009 10:56AM

I really don't like it GB, but that's just me.

BlindedByEgo · December 11, 2009 10:58AM

While I like the folks at NEN, I'm not a fan of that coin. At least from those photos, for my collection.

Regardless of the coloration, just too many spots - at any price.

1881 Gems are too readily available to settle for a badly spotted and discolored piece.

OneCent · December 11, 2009 11:00AM

My initial impression is dipped, placed in an album and retoned.

I do not like the look of that coin from the image. Is it in an NGC slab?

nevermind about the NGC slab...I see that it has been graded by PCGS

roadrunner · December 11, 2009 11:01AM

Looks weird. Even though tied for finest graded in 66 BN (11/0) I'd rather own a nice reddish 64-65 RB instead.

roadrunner

ThePennyLady · December 11, 2009 11:03AM

Looks like someone blew a big fat sneeze on that poor guy, and the "remnants" caused all that splatter stain. He needs to be sent back to PCGS for regrading.

soty27 · December 11, 2009 11:06AM

My guess is that it turned in the holder. I doubt the coin looked any thing like that when it was graded. The toning appears to be all wrong and the coin over all has a very negative eye appeal.

RedneckHB · December 11, 2009 11:26AM

I've owned 2 of the 11 66BN's--fortunately never this one--and both were light years better than this example.

lkeigwin · December 11, 2009 11:36AM

Not a fan, sorry.

I wonder if it was contaminated just before or during grading. I see it's in an old green holder so it was slabbed a while ago. Gotta believe it turned in the holder.

I don't know that PCGS would do anything if the coin was returned for regrading. What would you expect? A "genuine" for artificial color and a refund?
Lance.

ThePennyLady · December 11, 2009 11:53AM

<< Not a fan, sorry.

I wonder if it was contaminated just before or during grading. I see it's in an old green holder so it was slabbed a while ago. Gotta believe it turned in the holder.

I don't know that PCGS would do anything if the coin was returned for regrading. What would you expect? A "genuine" for artificial color and a refund?
Lance. >>

They mostly likely will buy it back - offer you a certain amount for the coin outright, or a reduced amount plus give you the raw coin back.

lkeigwin · December 11, 2009 12:43PM

<< 

<< Not a fan, sorry.

I wonder if it was contaminated just before or during grading. I see it's in an old green holder so it was slabbed a while ago. Gotta believe it turned in the holder.

I don't know that PCGS would do anything if the coin was returned for regrading. What would you expect? A "genuine" for artificial color and a refund?
Lance. >>

They mostly likely will buy it back - offer you a certain amount for the coin outright, or a reduced amount plus give you the raw coin back. >>

Why? Under what guarantee? That it is no longer a 66BN? No.

It would have to be that they feel it now deserves a genuine holder, right? I don't see them making that call.
Lance.

DMWJR · December 11, 2009 12:51PM

pass

OneCent · December 11, 2009 12:57PM

It is something, but it ain't 66BN no mo'.

Hard to believe that the people at NEN couldn't determine something was wrong with that coin and it no longer is what the label says it is.

Bochiman · December 11, 2009 1:08PM

<< 

<< 

<< Not a fan, sorry.

I wonder if it was contaminated just before or during grading. I see it's in an old green holder so it was slabbed a while ago. Gotta believe it turned in the holder.

I don't know that PCGS would do anything if the coin was returned for regrading. What would you expect? A "genuine" for artificial color and a refund?
Lance. >>

They mostly likely will buy it back - offer you a certain amount for the coin outright, or a reduced amount plus give you the raw coin back. >>

Why? Under what guarantee? That it is no longer a 66BN? No.

It would have to be that they feel it now deserves a genuine holder, right? I don't see them making that call.
Lance. >>

As many spots are there, it shouldn't, imho, be a 66. That is where it should start the negotiations of any buyback from pcgs.

ChrisRx · December 11, 2009 1:15PM

Ugly. It must have turned in the holder.

fc · December 11, 2009 1:42PM

<< Ugly. It must have turned in the holder. >>

but it got the grade of 66 BN in the past... so what exactly turned?
if it turned would it not have gotten at least a RB long ago?

BigMoose · December 11, 2009 1:44PM

Ouch! That one is not for me.

zeebob · December 11, 2009 2:03PM

I think the color on the cheek and in the fields looks really light. I wonder if this was a coin that was dipped and re-colored or re-toned. I wouldn't own an ugly problem coin like this. So to answer you directly, No the coin is not worth the $625. I wouldn't pay a dollar for it. The coin is cursed. It'll just be a burden to try and resell it later.

coinbuf · December 11, 2009 2:58PM

I'd pass, whatever happened it was'nt for the better.

ChrisRx · December 11, 2009 3:08PM

<< 

<< Ugly. It must have turned in the holder. >>

but it got the grade of 66 BN in the past... so what exactly turned?
if it turned would it not have gotten at least a RB long ago? >>

I am not talking about whether or not its RB or BN, rather whats going on with the feathers and the surrounding area. Looks like it might of been treated with something and not properly washed off before submitting and now it has "shown itself."

pcpro · December 11, 2009 3:08PM

Don't like that coin at all

NumbersUsacom · December 11, 2009 3:55PM

Looks authentic to me, just like the featherd headbands I always got at Christmas when I was a youngun. They always came with colorful feathers just like that one.

Elcontador · December 11, 2009 4:25PM

I don't think the coin is AT, but it appears horribly overgraded. I'm guessing it'll be regraded an MS 63 BN.

golfer72 · December 11, 2009 9:13PM

Yeah NEN has a lot of junk on their website. I have bought a few nice coins from them but they have some real dogs over there that they cant giveaway.

darktone · December 11, 2009 9:37PM

I think it's an original undipped coin that got it's toning from the original packaging. I agree a coin like this is not for everyone. For those that don't like this look their are tons of dipped ones to choose from. I think it's a personel preference.

291fifth · December 11, 2009 10:13PM

Ugly coin.

coinguy1 · December 11, 2009 10:48PM

Has anyone here actually seen the coin in hand? Perhaps the coin looks very different in person and much of this discussion is moot?

braddick · December 11, 2009 10:56PM

<< Has anyone here actually seen the coin in hand? Perhaps the coin looks very different in person and much of this discussion is moot? >>

Good call. The few coins I've picked up from this dealer have each been multiples better, in hand, than his photos allow. Call it the lighting and/or angle of the shot (I suppose to get the color to show) brings out weaknesses that just simply are not as apparent in person- really, not nearly as so.

Dropdaflag · December 11, 2009 11:11PM

<< My initial impression is dipped, placed in an album and retoned.

I do not like the look of that coin from the image. Is it in an NGC slab?

<<

coinguy1 · December 11, 2009 11:31PM

<< 

<< My initial impression is dipped, placed in an album and retoned.

I do not like the look of that coin from the image. Is it in an NGC slab?

<<

>>

It's not in an NGC slab unless it was crossed to NGC very recently

From the seller's website - please note what I have highlighted in bold:

Indian Cent 1881 PCGS PR66BN Colorful proof gem. In a green label PCGS holder. Tied for finest graded (pop of 11/0 at PCGS). PCGS Price Guide is $900."

PLE · December 11, 2009 11:40PM

Remember, if you buy that coin after January 1, PCGS will not guarantee the color. So, if you like that coin, you need to purchase it immediately, and you need to save your receipt. Be sure that the receipt shows the cert number. Also, be sure to get the dealer to give you their guarantee that the coin has not been doctored. That way, you can go after NEN if PCGS will not guarantee the coin.

Don Willis told me that his graders can no longer detect when coin doctors have changed the color of a copper coin. If his experts can't tell, than I know I can't tell. I think that this particular coin has been doctored, however.

coinguy1 · December 11, 2009 11:55PM

<< Remember, if you buy that coin after January 1, PCGS will not guarantee the color. So, if you like that coin, you need to purchase it immediately, and you need to save your receipt. Be sure that the receipt shows the cert number. Also, be sure to get the dealer to give you their guarantee that the coin has not been doctored. That way, you can go after NEN if PCGS will not guarantee the coin.

Don Willis told me that his graders can no longer detect when coin doctors have changed the color of a copper coin. If his experts can't tell, than I know I can't tell. I think that this particular coin has been doctored, however. >>

How can a dealer guarantee a buyer that a coin hasn't been doctored, if grading experts can't make that determination? And the fact that PCGS wont guarantee the coin if it is sold after January 1st, doesn't give a buyer any power, means or right to "go after NEN".

jdillane · December 11, 2009 11:56PM

Looks unusual to be sure. But I'd be curious to see if there are any other signs of shenanigans before condemning the coin as doctored. Nothing like an in-hand inspection. Sure, flail away on eye appeal but I'd be more interested in the response from NEN. I suspect that their comments would be given more in the context of their reputation than bias to make a sale. At least in the limited dealings I had with them, I found them to be fair and reasonable.

PLE · December 12, 2009 2:14AM

And the fact that PCGS wont guarantee the coin if it is sold after January 1st, doesn't give a buyer any power, means or right to "go after NEN".

Basically, PCGS has changed the environment for copper back to the days before TPGs existed. If PCGS won't guarantee its grades, then it is reasonable to hold the dealer responsible for the grades that he/she sells the coin with. It is reasonable that a buyer (consumer) should expect a dealer to stand behind their sales, especially since the dealer is assumed to be an expert.

coinpictures · December 12, 2009 2:23AM

<< Hard to believe that the people at NEN couldn't determine something was wrong with that coin and it no longer is what the label says it is. >>

How do you know it's not a consignment piece? NEN does a lot of consignment and it could very well be part of a large group from the same consignor. A dealer can't always choose which coins they get to showcase from a seller; it could be all or nothing...

NEN is a first-class operation. Top notch customer service. I've bought countless pieces from them in the last 10 years. If you get the coin in hand and don't like the way it looks for any reason whatsoever, there's a cheerful no-questions-asked return. And without a lame restocking fee.

P.S. I don't like the coin either.

coinguy1 · December 12, 2009 2:56AM

<< And the fact that PCGS wont guarantee the coin if it is sold after January 1st, doesn't give a buyer any power, means or right to "go after NEN".

Basically, PCGS has changed the environment for copper back to the days before TPGs existed. If PCGS won't guarantee its grades, then it is reasonable to hold the dealer responsible for the grades that he/she sells the coin with. It is reasonable that a buyer (consumer) should expect a dealer to stand behind their sales, especially since the dealer is assumed to be an expert. >>

Regardless of whether a PCGS guarantee is in effect or not, a potential buyer can view the coin and decide whether he wishes to purchase it or not. And if he chooses to buy it, the seller has no obligation beyond that time.

What do you expect or want the seller to guarantee? That the coin wont change in appearance? That others will agree with the grade? That he will buy it back at a certain price? The seller has no obligation to guarantee anything other than authenticity.

PLE · December 12, 2009 3:38AM

What do you expect or want the seller to guarantee? ... The seller has no obligation to guarantee anything other than authenticity.

The seller is selling this coin as a PR66BN coin. Suppose I purchase it after Jan. 1, and I immediately send it into PCGS for re-grade. And, suppose PCGS declares it has "questionable color" and puts it in a Genuine slab. Well, that coin is no longer marketable as a PR66BN, and under those circumstances, I would have lost money. The dealer claims to be an expert. I expect the dealer, under those circumstances, to stand behind their sale and give me a complete refund for the coin. After all, it wasn't an authentic PR66BN coin.

In order to avoid this scenario, the dealer should send the coin to PCGS for re-grading prior to offering it for sale.

coinguy1 · December 12, 2009 3:48AM

<< What do you expect or want the seller to guarantee? ... The seller has no obligation to guarantee anything other than authenticity.

The seller is selling this coin as a PR66BN coin. Suppose I purchase it after Jan. 1, and I immediately send it into PCGS for re-grade. And, suppose PCGS declares it has "questionable color" and puts it in a Genuine slab. Well, that coin is no longer marketable as a PR66BN, and under those circumstances, I would have lost money. The dealer claims to be an expert. I expect the dealer, under those circumstances, to stand behind their sale and give me a complete refund for the coin. After all, it wasn't an authentic PR66BN coin.

In order to avoid this scenario, the dealer should send the coin to PCGS for re-grading prior to offering it for sale. >>

The dealer is selling the coin as a PCGSPR66BN. That grade is the opinion of PCGS. The dealer might be of the opinion that the coin is better or worse than that, and still has every right to sell it as such. The dealer can't and shouldn't be responsible for PCGS changing its opinion of the coin. I believe that your expectations are totally unrealistic.

BillJones · December 12, 2009 3:57AM

I don't care for this piece. I don't care for copper coins in MS-66 holders have spots.

doh · December 12, 2009 4:01AM

IMHO that coin is ugly as sin. Spotted, looks AT.

jdillane · December 12, 2009 4:13AM

Mark, I would not recommend debating this with PLE. It's just not worth it.

coinpictures · December 12, 2009 4:18AM

<< What do you expect or want the seller to guarantee? ... The seller has no obligation to guarantee anything other than authenticity.

The seller is selling this coin as a PR66BN coin. Suppose I purchase it after Jan. 1, and I immediately send it into PCGS for re-grade. And, suppose PCGS declares it has "questionable color" and puts it in a Genuine slab. Well, that coin is no longer marketable as a PR66BN, and under those circumstances, I would have lost money. The dealer claims to be an expert. I expect the dealer, under those circumstances, to stand behind their sale and give me a complete refund for the coin. After all, it wasn't an authentic PR66BN coin.

In order to avoid this scenario, the dealer should send the coin to PCGS for re-grading prior to offering it for sale. >>

As mark states, utterly unrealistic. Dealers should not be on the hook for grading services changing their minds on previously-holdered coins.

YOU are the one requesting a regrade. If you want to take that chance, YOU bear the potential liability for it.

pennyannie · December 12, 2009 4:26AM

They have the right to sell any coin they want to but it is ugly. I doubt that it would be nicer than almost ugly in hand. PCGS guide in 65 brown is 575 and in 66 brown 900. I do not think they have it priced at fire sale levels. I like NEN and will continue to buy from them in the future.

OneCent · December 12, 2009 4:38AM

I agree that it is unrealistic as well as not the responsibility of a dealer to debate the merits of the grade that the premier grading service assigned to this coin. That would be utterly unreasonable in my opinion.

However, in this particular case and based upon the image presented, it seems apparent that the coin turned while in the PCGS holder. Is it not the dealers responsibility to at least note that this may be the case when offering the coin? Then potential buyer(s) can then decide if they want to take the financial risk of buying the coin. Perhaps NEN did this to some extent within the offering price as it seems low for a 66BN top pop example.

It is also possible, that the coin looks entirely different in-hand.

tradedollarnut · December 12, 2009 4:55AM

I agree that it is unrealistic as well as not the responsibility of a dealer to debate the merits of the grade that the premier grading service assigned to this coin.

Really? I call BS on that. It's the responsibility of any good dealer to screen out bad coins and not sell them to their clients - ESPECIALLY those in a top tier holder.

This comment is in general and not aimed at any specific coin that I haven't viewed in person.

NotSure · December 12, 2009 5:00AM

Me no likey

PLE · December 12, 2009 5:19AM

I agree that it is unrealistic as well as not the responsibility of a dealer to debate the merits of the grade that the premier grading service assigned to this coin.

As a collector, I expect dealers to stand behind whatever they sell. Further, I expect a dealer to honestly describe their opinion of each coin. After all, dealers are coin experts. A dealer knows full well that not every PCGS grade is accurate. If dealers worked with PCGS to flush out bad and doctored coins, the value of all coins would increase.

Here is the reverse of that PCGS graded (old green holder) PR66BN coin:

coinguy1 · December 12, 2009 5:28AM

<< I agree that it is unrealistic as well as not the responsibility of a dealer to debate the merits of the grade that the premier grading service assigned to this coin.

As a collector, I expect dealers to stand behind whatever they sell. Further, I expect a dealer to honestly describe their opinion of each coin. After all, dealers are coin experts. A dealer knows full well that not every PCGS grade is accurate. If dealers worked with PCGS to flush out bad and doctored coins, the value of all coins would increase.

Here is the reverse of that PCGS graded (old green holder) PR66BN coin:

>>

There is a huge difference between a dealer standing behind what he sells and providing honest opinions/accurate descriptions, VS. guaranteeing that a grading company wont change its opinion of the coin, if resubmitted, or that others will agree with the grade. I and some other dealers I know try to do the former, but realistically we can't be and shouldn't be expected to do the latter.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 12, 2009 5:38AM

I could enjoy the coin if priced to the point of bending my arm.

coinpictures · December 12, 2009 5:40AM

<< There is a huge difference between a dealer standing behind what he sells and providing honest opinions/accurate descriptions, VS. guaranteeing that a grading company wont change its opinion of the coin, if resubmitted, or that others will agree with the grade. I and some other dealers I know try to do the former, but realistically we can't be and shouldn't be expected to do the latter. >>

Copper folks....What are your thoughts on this NEN 1881 PR66BN IHC?? A lot going on here!!!!

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